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Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

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    #46
    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    A brother from IA mentioned:

    Here is the context in which the Shaykh mentions this issue of superiority of the Arabs over the non-Arabs:

    In between the section entitled ‘The Matter of Contradicting the Shayatin’ and the section entitled ‘The Law Preceding ours is a Law for Us as long as It does not Oppose Our Law’, is found the discussion in question included in the section entitled ‘The Distinction between Resembling the Disbelievers and Shayatin and Resembling the Bedouins and Non-Arabs’.

    That is the context, and it is a very important set of issues that occupies an important place in the Sunnah, as well is in our current age. Resembling the Disbelievers is something dispraised in its essence, just like resembling the Shayatin, while resembling non-Arabs and Bedouins is not dispraised in its essence rather there are groups of non-Arabs and Bedouins and they are grouped according to whether or not they are Believers. If they are indeed Believers then they will follow the Sunnah of the Prophet SAWS and resemble most the Muhajireen and Ansaar, in which case they will appear like Arabs in their culture, language, and manners, and according to some opinions, by means of this they will have entered into Arab-ness to an extent.

    So you see your understanding that the Shaykh mentioned the discussion of the superiority of the Arabs within an overall discussion of innovation is not accurate, rather he was discussing matters which are known from the Deen, like not imitating the Shaytan in eating and drinking with the left hand and the position of Ahl us-Sunnah on matters related to previous revealed laws- matters of great importance that are fundamental to the Deen and remaining firm upon the straight path.

    People are inextricably tied to what is perceived as their race, as the Shaykh pointed out in part of the discussion, most people today don't know where they come from in terms of lineage, and so people are mostly categorized by language or land in which they reside, even when discussing Arabs. So given that lineage is not an issue with many non-Arabs and even Arabs, then how else will a person be defined but according to the culture, language, land in which they reside, character, etc? If a person is actively pursuing imitation of the Prophet SAWS and his Companions RA, then this person will acquire various outwards characteristics that depending on phenotype may not be distinguishable from an Arab even! Most people would consider this person Arab for all sakes and purposes until and unless they ask for the lineage. (Happens to me all the time in Mexico)

    This has to do with praise and dispraise of individuals based on designations found in the Qur'an and judging individuals based on their excellence or superiority according to these designations like Believer or Disbeliever, Pious or Wicked, Knowledgeable or Ignorant, etc. A persons lineage will not impede any of these categorizations in the least bit, nor prevent an individual from the non-Arabs or even Bedouins from excelling or being superior to a descendant of the Quraysh.

    You have the right idea about the Farewell Sermon and not being unjust to anyone is assessing their excellence and superiority with regards to well-known designations of what is praised and dispraised near Allah and His Messenger, however you have atrophied completely on the issue dealing with the superiority of groups of people over others, or between 'races' as your so averse to having it worded.

    Comment


      #47
      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

      who hates shaikh ibn taymiyyah? i suppose some won't always agree with him but he was a great scholar regardless. we all know ulama are not infallible.

      Originally posted by myidea View Post
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Taymiyyah

      Some people like him, some hate him, controversial figure in that sense.
      The enforcement of Muslim Brotherhood is the greatest social ideal of Islam. On it was based the Prophet's (SAW) sermon on his last pilgrimage, and Islam cannot be completely realized until this ideal is achieved. '
      (Shaikh Maulana Muhammad Yusuf)
      In Lam Takun Ghaadiban Annee Falaa Ubaalee...

      Comment


        #48
        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

        ^some people call him a "wahhabi" lol
        "They are Shuhadaa (witnesses) to the fact that this Deen is greater than life, that values are more important than blood and that principles are more precious than souls" - Sheikh 'Abdullah Azzam

        Lost in Islamic History :inlove:

        Comment


          #49
          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

          how silly.
          The enforcement of Muslim Brotherhood is the greatest social ideal of Islam. On it was based the Prophet's (SAW) sermon on his last pilgrimage, and Islam cannot be completely realized until this ideal is achieved. '
          (Shaikh Maulana Muhammad Yusuf)
          In Lam Takun Ghaadiban Annee Falaa Ubaalee...

          Comment


            #50
            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

            Originally posted by Literacy View Post
            Please, no one mentioned Europeans or Nazis. This is comparing apples and oranges; racism will always be racism. There are many rulings of Ibn Taymiyyah where he stated that it is severely disliked for an Arab woman to marry a non-Arab, only an Arab can hold powerful political positions, and an Arab is not subjected to Zakat (Tax). That is Arab nationalism, and is trying to use Islam to push Arab hegemony.
            Evidence?
            "Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes"

            Comment


              #51
              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

              Originally posted by Literacy View Post
              According to Ahlus Sunnah, you're an innovator.
              Ibn Taymiyyah says in his Iqtidaa: “Thus indeed it is that which Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah are upon: the belief that the race of the Arab is more excellent/preferred/superior than the race of the non-Arab…”

              You either agree or disagree with what the Shaykh is saying. If you disagree with it than the companion of Imam Ahmad, al-Kirmani and Ibn Taymiyyah say that you have innovated and left the Jama’ah of Ahl us-Sunnah.

              If you disagree with the above, then simply bring a scholar of equal or higher repute opposing this view and stating in no uncertain terms what the belief of Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah is regarding the superiority of the Arab.

              Comment


                #52
                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                This is the true position of Ibn Taymiyya (rh).


                وما ذكره كثير من العلماء من أن غير العرب ليسوا أكفاء للعرب في النكاح، فهذه مسألة نزاع بين العلماء، فمنهم من لا يرى الكفاءة إلا في الدين، ومن رآها في النسب ـ أيضًا ـ فإنه يحتج بقول عمر‏:‏ لأمنعن ذوات الأحساب إلا من الأكفاء؛ لأن النكاح مقصوده حسن الألفة، فإذا كانت المرأة أعلى منصبًا اشتغلت عن الرجل فلا يتم به المقصود‏.‏ وهذه حجة من جعل ذلك حقًا لله، حتى أبطل النكاح إذا زوجت المرأة بمن لا يكافئها في الدين أو المنصب، ومن جعلها حقًا لآدمي قال‏:‏ إن في ذلك غضاضة على أولياء المرأة وعليها، والأمر إليهم في ذلك‏.‏
                ثم هؤلاء لا يخصون الكفاءة بالنسب، بل يقولون‏:‏ هي من الصفات التي تتفاضل بها النفوس، كالصناعة واليسار والحرية وغير ذلك، وهذه مسائل اجتهادية ترد إلى الله والرسول؛ فإن جاء عن الله ورسوله ما يوافق أحد القولين فما جاء عن الله لا يختلف، وإلا فلا يكون قول أحد حجة على الله ورسوله‏.‏وليس عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم نص صحيح صريح في هذه الأمور، بل قد قال صلى الله عليه وسلم‏:‏ ‏(‏إن الله أذهب عنكم عبية الجاهلية وفخرها بالآباء، الناس رجلان‏:‏ مؤمن تقي، وفاجر شقي‏)‏،


                Ibn Tayimiyya said in Majmoo3 fatwa:
                And what many scholars mentioned that non arab is not suitable for arab in marriage, then this is a disputed issue among the scholars, there are those who do not see suitability except in terms of religion, and there are those who saw it in lineage also – they argue with the saying of Umar : "I shall prevent those with lineage except from the suitable ones" *. Because the purpose of marriage is harmony, so if the women were of higher status she will not serve her husband (pre-occupied with herself) and this does not serve the purpose (of marriage). And this is proof of those who said it is must until they nullified nikah if a woman married with someone who was not suitable in religion and lineage ... till he said ... and this issue is based upon ijtihaad (jurisprudential) returns to Allah and his messenger; if it comes from messenger of Allah that which falls in agreement with either of the two sayings then what comes from Allah there is no contradiction in it. Otherwise none of the saying will be hujja upon Allah and his messenger. And there is no clear and authentic narration from prophet regarding this issues, but he (saw) said: "Verily Allah has removed from you the imperfection of days of ignorance and taking pride in fathers, people are of two kinds: Pious believer and immoral wretch."

                Comment


                  #53
                  Originally posted by ahaneefah View Post
                  A brother from IA mentioned:

                  Here is the context in which the Shaykh mentions this issue of superiority of the Arabs over the non-Arabs:

                  In between the section entitled ‘The Matter of Contradicting the Shayatin’ and the section entitled ‘The Law Preceding ours is a Law for Us as long as It does not Oppose Our Law’, is found the discussion in question included in the section entitled ‘The Distinction between Resembling the Disbelievers and Shayatin and Resembling the Bedouins and Non-Arabs’.

                  That is the context, and it is a very important set of issues that occupies an important place in the Sunnah, as well is in our current age. Resembling the Disbelievers is something dispraised in its essence, just like resembling the Shayatin, while resembling non-Arabs and Bedouins is not dispraised in its essence rather there are groups of non-Arabs and Bedouins and they are grouped according to whether or not they are Believers. If they are indeed Believers then they will follow the Sunnah of the Prophet SAWS and resemble most the Muhajireen and Ansaar, in which case they will appear like Arabs in their culture, language, and manners, and according to some opinions, by means of this they will have entered into Arab-ness to an extent.

                  So you see your understanding that the Shaykh mentioned the discussion of the superiority of the Arabs within an overall discussion of innovation is not accurate, rather he was discussing matters which are known from the Deen, like not imitating the Shaytan in eating and drinking with the left hand and the position of Ahl us-Sunnah on matters related to previous revealed laws- matters of great importance that are fundamental to the Deen and remaining firm upon the straight path.

                  People are inextricably tied to what is perceived as their race, as the Shaykh pointed out in part of the discussion, most people today don't know where they come from in terms of lineage, and so people are mostly categorized by language or land in which they reside, even when discussing Arabs. So given that lineage is not an issue with many non-Arabs and even Arabs, then how else will a person be defined but according to the culture, language, land in which they reside, character, etc? If a person is actively pursuing imitation of the Prophet SAWS and his Companions RA, then this person will acquire various outwards characteristics that depending on phenotype may not be distinguishable from an Arab even! Most people would consider this person Arab for all sakes and purposes until and unless they ask for the lineage. (Happens to me all the time in Mexico)

                  This has to do with praise and dispraise of individuals based on designations found in the Qur'an and judging individuals based on their excellence or superiority according to these designations like Believer or Disbeliever, Pious or Wicked, Knowledgeable or Ignorant, etc. A persons lineage will not impede any of these categorizations in the least bit, nor prevent an individual from the non-Arabs or even Bedouins from excelling or being superior to a descendant of the Quraysh.

                  You have the right idea about the Farewell Sermon and not being unjust to anyone is assessing their excellence and superiority with regards to well-known designations of what is praised and dispraised near Allah and His Messenger, however you have atrophied completely on the issue dealing with the superiority of groups of people over others, or between 'races' as your so averse to having it worded.
                  Thiss tooo
                  [SIZE=3][FONT=Times New Roman][B][U][CENTER]Oh Allah, in your name, I die and live.[/CENTER][/U][/B][/FONT][/SIZE]
                  [CENTER]:):lailah::lailah::lailah::lailah::)[/CENTER]

                  [B][CENTER]Ya Allah, Grant Me A Heart That Sees[/CENTER][/B]

                  Comment


                    #54
                    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                    Well excuse me for not taking the words of Ibn Taymiyah above the words of Prophet Muhammad PBUH!

                    And besides Ibn Taymiyah is only sheikh of Salafis, a sect amongst 73 sects of Islam. He is nonexisting for other sects, just like sheikhs of sufis , sunnis and shias are nonexisting for Salafis.

                    Comment


                      #55
                      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                      Originally posted by ForeverMonotheist1 View Post
                      Well excuse me for not taking the words of Ibn Taymiyah above the words of Prophet Muhammad PBUH!

                      And besides Ibn Taymiyah is only sheikh of Salafis, a sect amongst 73 sects of Islam. He is nonexisting for other sects, just like sheikhs of sufis , sunnis and shias are nonexisting for Salafis.
                      Can't make that judgement without confirming the source or understanding the context.

                      Something you lack in.

                      ForeverMoron.

                      Comment


                        #56
                        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                        Originally posted by Muwahid_ View Post
                        That looks like something directly out of mein-kampf.

                        And if it is obligatory to accept the superiority of the Arab race, why hasn't the prophet (SAW) said anything on the matter? Is this not an act of taking scholars as your lords, when Allah (SWT) and his messenger (SAW) have already ruled on this and that there is no superiority?
                        Dude, first of all he probably means it in a certain context, Banu Hashim > Quraysh > Arab and Arab > Non-Arab. Ibn Taymiyyah believes that the Arab is the one who speaks Arabic, in this sense he believes the Arab is better than the non-Arab in that he can read and understand the Qur'an, not in anything else. As for Banu Hashim being superior to Quraysh and Quraysh superior to the rest of the Arabs, this is in the sense that Allah chose his messenger (saw) from Quraysh and so the closer you are to him the more Allah has favored you but it makes no difference in this life or on the day of judgement, also in the sense that Arabic is a better language than any other.

                        Note, it's not a racial matter, no race is better than the other and no blood-line gets favorable treatment in front of Allah.

                        Also I can't find evidence for their position, it could simply be that their position is incorrect, it seems from their writings that there was racism and hatred towards Arabs, this probably is a reaction to that.
                        Last edited by TripolySunni; 03-03-16, 05:54 PM.

                        Comment


                          #57
                          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                          This
                          Originally posted by samin62 View Post
                          original arabic anybody?
                          “Have you seen he who has taken as his god his [own] desire, and Allah has sent him astray due to knowledge and has set a seal upon his hearing and his heart and put over his vision a veil? So who will guide him after Allah ? Then will you not be reminded? And they say, “There is not but our worldly life; we die and live, and nothing destroys us except time.” And they have of that no knowledge; they are only assuming.” Quran 45:23-24

                          Comment


                            #58
                            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                            That is Ibn Taymiyyah's position it seems and here's the Arabic of this text or maybe another text,

                            فإن الذي عليه أهل السنة والجماعة اعتقاد أن جنس العرب أفضل من جنس العجم: عبرانيهم وسريانيهم، رومهم و فرسهم وغيرهم، وأن قريشاً أفضل العرب وأن بني هاشم أفضل قريش وأن رسول الله (ص) أفضل بني هاشم، فهو أفضل الخلق نفساً وأفضلهم نسباً. وليس فضل العرب ثم قريش ثم بني هاشم بمجرد كون النبي (ص) منهم، وإن كان هذا من الفضل، بل هم أنفسهم أفضل.

                            [What Ahlul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah are upon is that Arab-kind is better than non-Arab-kind: Assyrians, Hebrews, Romans, Persians and the rest. Quraysh is also the best of the Arabs, Banu Hashim are better than Quraysh and the Messenger (saw) is better than Banu Hashim, so he is the best of the creations in his self and his lineage. The superiority of Arabs, Quraysh and Banu Hashim is not only limited to the Prophet (saw) being chosen from them, although that is one of the reasons, but rather they themselves are better.]

                            But notice that he says later:

                            لكن تفضيل الجملة على الجملة لا يستلزم أن يكون كل فرد أفضل من كل فرد فإن في غير العرب خلق كثير خير من أكثر العرب

                            [However, preferring Arabs in general over non-Arabs does not necessarily mean that every individual Arab is better than every individual non-Arab, as there are plenty of non-Arabs who are superior than most Arabs.]

                            I remind you, Ibn Taymiyyah believes that Arabs are anyone who speaks Arabic, even if he's Persian, Indian or Greek.

                            He says:

                            وما ذكرنا من حكم اللسان العربي وأخلاق العرب، يثبت لمن كان كذلك وإن كان أصله فارسياً، وينتفي عمن لم يكن كذلك وإن كان أصله هاشمياً

                            [What we mentioned of rulings pertaining to the Arabic tongue and Arab morals, is established to anyone of them even if he's of Persian origins and it isn't established to anyone who doesn't possess (Arabic tongue and morals) even if he's originally a Hashemite.]

                            Then he quotes this narration:

                            إنَّ الرب واحد، والأبُ واحد، والدَين واحد، وإنَّ العربيةَ ليست لأحدكم بأبٍ ولا أمّ، إنما هي لسانَّ، فمنْ تكلَّمَ بالعربيةِ فهو عربي

                            [The Lord is one, the father is one and the religion is one; Arabic is not a father or mother to any of you, it is only a tongue, so whoever speaks it then he is Arab.]

                            He says "The meaning of this report is correct."

                            Now all of the above doesn't matter, what matters is the evidence, let's look at their evidence since that's what decides, they quote the following:

                            إن الله اصطفى كِنَانَةَ من وَلَدِ إسماعيل، واصطفى قريشاً من كنانة، واصطفى من قريشٍ بني هاشم، واصطفاني من بني هاشم

                            [Verily Allah chose Kinanah from amongst the descendants of Isma`il and He chose the Quraysh amongst Kinanah and He chose from Banu Hashim from among Quraysh and He chose me from the tribe of Banu Hashim.]

                            حب العرب إيمان، وبغضهم نفاق

                            [Loving the Arabs is a sign of belief and hating them is a sign of disbelief.]

                            بعثت من خير قرون بني آدم؛ قرناً فقرناً؛ حتى بعثت من القرن الذي كنت فيه

                            [I have been sent (as an Apostle) in the best of all the generations of Adam's (as) offspring, out of all generations until this one.]


                            That's the evidence I've seen so far and it's terribly poor to suggest Arabs were better due to this as none of the texts are actually saying that.

                            The theory here is, Arabs in general at that time were better due to the fact that they could understand Arabic and thus understood the religious instructions leading them to behave better.
                            Last edited by TripolySunni; 03-03-16, 06:32 PM.

                            Comment


                              #59
                              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                              Originally posted by TripolySunni View Post
                              That is Ibn Taymiyyah's position it seems and here's the Arabic of this text or maybe another text,

                              فإن الذي عليه أهل السنة والجماعة اعتقاد أن جنس العرب أفضل من جنس العجم: عبرانيهم وسريانيهم، رومهم و فرسهم وغيرهم، وأن قريشاً أفضل العرب وأن بني هاشم أفضل قريش وأن رسول الله (ص) أفضل بني هاشم، فهو أفضل الخلق نفساً وأفضلهم نسباً. وليس فضل العرب ثم قريش ثم بني هاشم بمجرد كون النبي (ص) منهم، وإن كان هذا من الفضل، بل هم أنفسهم أفضل.

                              [What Ahlul-Sunnah wal-Jama`ah are upon is that Arab-kind is better than non-Arab-kind: Assyrians, Hebrews, Romans, Persians and the rest. Quraysh is also the best of the Arabs, Banu Hashim are better than Quraysh and the Messenger (saw) is better than Banu Hashim, so he is the best of the creations in his self and his lineage. The superiority of Arabs, Quraysh and Banu Hashim is not only limited to the Prophet (saw) being chosen from them, although that is one of the reasons, but rather they themselves are better.]

                              But notice that he says later:

                              لكن تفضيل الجملة على الجملة لا يستلزم أن يكون كل فرد أفضل من كل فرد فإن في غير العرب خلق كثير خير من أكثر العرب

                              [However, preferring Arabs in general over non-Arabs does not necessarily mean that every individual Arab is better than every individual non-Arab, as there are plenty of non-Arabs who are superior than most Arabs.]

                              I remind you, Ibn Taymiyyah believes that Arabs are anyone who speaks Arabic, even if he's Persian, Indian or Greek.

                              Now all of the above doesn't matter, what matters is the evidence, let's look at their evidence since that's what decides, they quote the following:

                              إن الله اصطفى كِنَانَةَ من وَلَدِ إسماعيل، واصطفى قريشاً من كنانة، واصطفى من قريشٍ بني هاشم، واصطفاني من بني هاشم

                              [Verily Allah chose Kinanah from amongst the descendants of Isma`il and He chose the Quraysh amongst Kinanah and He chose from Banu Hashim from among Quraysh and He chose me from the tribe of Banu Hashim.]

                              حب العرب إيمان، وبغضهم نفاق

                              [Loving the Arabs is a sign of belief and hating them is a sign of disbelief.]

                              بعثت من خير قرون بني آدم؛ قرناً فقرناً؛ حتى بعثت من القرن الذي كنت فيه

                              [I have been sent (as an Apostle) in the best of all the generations of Adam's (as) offspring, out of all generations until this one.]


                              That's the evidence I've seen so far and it's terribly poor to suggest Arabs were better due to this as none of the texts are actually saying that.


                              Arent these Hadiths in great conflict with Quran and other hadith( arab is not better than non-arab vice versa, black is not better than white vice versa)?


                              Surely Logic says we must accept Quran and hadith of "arab is not better than nonarab vice versa......" and throw away whatever contradicts Quran and that Hadith.

                              Comment


                                #60
                                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                                Originally posted by ForeverMonotheist1 View Post
                                Arent these Hadiths in great conflict with Quran and other hadith( arab is not better than non-arab vice versa, black is not better than white vice versa)?
                                It has nothing to do with it


                                For example we know the status of banu hashim and banu quraish(who are hashimi), are you going to say it's racist to say that they are superior than us?
                                Last edited by Blackbeard; 03-03-16, 06:33 PM.
                                "There will never cease to remain a group from my Ummah fighting upon the command of Allah, subjugating their enemies. They are not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives".

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