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Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

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  • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
    If we agree with the logic which states that Arabs are not superior to non-Arabs, then there are two possibilities according to this: 1) non-Arabs are superior to Arabs; or 2) all nations/tribes/races are equal to one another.

    According to opinion #1 based on Shu'ubiyyah, "it is perfectly good to say that Mexicans are better than Arabs or Europeans are better than Arabs."

    According to opinion #2 based on Shu'ubiyyah, it is racist to say any tribe/nation/race is better than another.

    What people in the West have been conditioned to think is that "stereotype=racism", when this necessitates that everyone alive today is "racist" to some extent.

    The definition of "stereotype" is: "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing."

    An example given in the definition is: "the stereotype of the woman as the carer".

    A person who generalizes or stereotypes a woman is considered "misogynistic" by Western standards. A person who generalizes or stereotypes a race is considered "racist" by Western standards. However, as Muslims we do not follow the values and standards of the West in determining what is "normal" or "standard".

    Many scholars have discussed this matter in depth and with many proofs, both Ijtihadi and Tawqeefi. I don't think it's necessary that we relive the same old disagreements from those people on the forum who refuse to acknowledge the authority of Islamic scholarship in every single discussion.

    However, for those people on the forum who do accept the authority of Islamic scholarship, especially their consensus, then there has to be an attempt to understand the point of view of the scholars. Too often the discussion devolve into individuals asserting and defending their own personal perspectives or opinions.

    I don't think you're doing that [MENTION=113309]Linkdeutscher[/MENTION], so that is why I'm responding to you.

    Just look at the paradox that is the "superiority" of the Arab over the non-Arab in Islamic beliefs. On one hand, the "superiority" translates into more responsibility and less advantages, i.e. leadership and no Zakaah. The person whose pronunciation of Arabic is best cannot pray behind the one who makes major errors in recitation. And there are a whole host of Fiqh rulings that differ based on a perceived proficiency or deficiency in the "Arabness' of those involved.

    Some people in the discussion have expressed the idea that Allah's choosing the Arabs from which to send Muhammad SAWS was simply "chance" or "arbitrary" so that the ways in which we imitate the Prophet SAWS are in imitation of his person specifically and not "Arabs". This is simply a way of reasoning that the same conclusion as the opposing argument arrived by a different route.

    The Prophet SAWS was an Arab and thus his sayings, actions, behaviors, characteristics, etiquette, norms, preferences, dress, etc. were all codified as either "obligatory" or "recommended". At the moment of codification, the Prophet's "Arabness" became "obligatory" or "recommended" even for the non-Arab.

    As for the person of the Prophet SAWS, then his "Arabness" cannot be divorced from him. No other race can boast of having originated the last and final Prophet, whose personal preferences and habits were codified as "obligatory" or "recommended", thus preserving the best aspects of their own culture for all time and places.

    Some people in this thread have tried to point out some evils that were prevalent among the Arabs in Jahiliyyah in a meager attempt at attributing the evil to "Arabness". But according to the logic that generalizing about race is wrong and contrary to the Quran, attributing the actions of some Arabs in Jahiliyyah to all Arabs is wrong. According to the correct application of the logic involved in the consensus of the scholars on the superiority of Arabs over non-Arabs, any evil aspect of Arab culture was carefully and systematically removed by the tutelage and example of the Prophet SAWS over the course of 23 years. So that what remained in the practice of the Prophet SAWS and his Companions RA was a resulting redaction of Arab culture that would serve as the best example for humanity until the Hour.

    Yes, many different cultures observe a type of clothing referred to as "khamees". Even Spanish-speaking people around the world call their shirts "camisa" based on the Arabic word. And many, many different types of clothing which covers the upper-body, no matter the language or word, is "permissible". Yet the "recommended" type of قميص or خميصة will always be the ones that the Prophet SAWS preferred. And they are undoubtedly forms known to or common to the Arabs.

    In fact, preferring specifically non-Arab types of clothing is prohibited in Islam.

    It's really sad that people feel the need to impose Western standards and concepts on Islam and Muslims. It's equally sad to see people who wish to be seen as good Muslims, opposing the consensus of Islamic scholars on issues of belief and doing so without a single scholarly rebuttal or opinion.

    Another way to look at this concept of "Arab superiority" in Islam, is to re-frame the matter differently. For those who agree that Arabic is the best of all languages, even if only because the Quran and Sunnah are in Arabic, then how do you think non-Muslim, non-Arabs view this opinion- regardless of your reason for it? They will most definitely view this opinion as racist and pro-Arab, not pro-Islam.

    Even things like growing a beard, wearing a Thawb or Imaamah, women wearing Hijab, not shaking hands with women, etc. are all seen by non-Arab, non-Muslims, and unfortunately even some who claim to be Muslim, as "Arab culture" and not from the "religion" of Islam.

    This 3rd-party perspective should inform the incorrect perception of those who have different reasons for following the recommendations and dictates of Islam. Their own outward form and appearance is a representation of "Arabness" to observers. So despite your disagreement with the belief of Arab superiority, your actions and sayings prove the opposite to the outside observer.
    This.

    Comment


    • Comment


      • Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?



        You didn't offend me. I never lose my sleep over what people think. You are free to think what you like. I won't be responsible for your actions just like you will not be responsible for mine.

        However, if the superiority of the Arabs in this temporary world bothers you then you should know that you still have your sights set on this worldly life. You have a long way to go when it comes to your spiritual development.

        There are people taller than you
        There are people smarter than you
        There are people wealthier than you
        There are people who are better looking than you
        There are people who will run faster than you
        There are people who will out do you in any skill
        There are people who are more charismatic than you

        Do you know the common denominator in all of that? It all has to do with this temporary worldly life.

        The Arabs are superior as a genus over others. That is limited to this world.

        You will have Arabs in the Fire. You will have Arabs who will never see Paradise.

        The criteria for the one thing which matters, namely the next life, is Taqwaa.

        Allaah has clearly stated that in the Qur'aan.

        I do not see why you are bothered if the Arabs are better than the non-Arabs.
        .

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

          1) I have decided to write one last post to give a better clarity to some Muslims in here:

          2) Firstly, there are only two sources that Allah has obligated upon us to follow:

          A) O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.(Surah 4:59)

          B) And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion.(Surah 4:61)

          C) The only statement of the [true] believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.(Surah 24:51)

          D) It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.(Surah 33:36).

          3) So what did Allah and His Messenger say about this matter:

          A) Allah said: "O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."(Surah 49:13)

          B) Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) said: "Allah does not look at your figures, nor at your attire but He looks at your hearts and accomplishments."

          https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/7

          4) Allah does not choose someone based on ethnicity, don't you read the Quran?

          A) But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.(Surah 5:18).

          B) Say, "O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful."(Surah 62:6).

          5) So why did Allah choose the Children of Israel and the Sahaba(Mujahideen): Based on their actions, not their ethnicity.

          A) And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt over his meeting. And we made the Torah guidance for the Children of Israel.And We made from among them leaders guiding by Our command when they were patient and [when] they were certain of Our signs.(Surah 32:23-24).

          B) Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward.(Surah 4:95).

          6) Things like being born an Arab has nothing to do with superiority, it is only a favor from Allah just like a person with children and wealth:

          A) Do they think that what We extend to them of wealth and children. Is [because] We hasten for them good things? Rather, they do not perceive.(Surah 23:55-56).

          7) Allah also said:

          A) O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.(Surah 5:54).

          B) "But if the disbelievers deny it, then We have entrusted it to a people who are not therein disbelievers." (Surah 6:89)

          C) "And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you." (Surah 47:38).
          1) Good point:

          A) http://legacy.quran.com/33/66-67

          Comment


          • Racially they are equal but culturally one could argue Arab culture and ethics are indeed superior as Islam is intertwined with Arab culture in Andalus there was a term for the Suebi, Visigoths and others who picked up the Arab culture they were called مُستَعرَب (Moust'Aarab) which means one who adopts Arab ways this is evident that for one to be a Muslim they must accept aspects of Arab culture Allah blessed the Arabs with Islam and lifted them to greatness from tribes in the deserts of Nejd, Yemen, Hijaz, etc to the farthest western regions of Africa to Mesopotamia.

            This is possibly why he said this.

            Comment



            • You sure that your not taking his quote out of context?

              Mind telling is exactly in what regard he said they were superior?

              Was he talking about in knowledge/wisdom? Or some other matter?

              Or is this one of your snide attempts to belittle Ibn Taymiyyah Rahimahullah?
              http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

              "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by OneLifeResults View Post
                1) I would like to add that Arabs were very evil people before Islam. Aside from their shirk, they use to bury their daughters alive:

                A) And when one of them is informed of [the birth of] a female, his face becomes dark, and he suppresses grief. He hides himself from the people because of the ill of which he has been informed. Should he keep it in humiliation or bury it in the ground? Unquestionably, evil is what they decide. (Surah 16:58-59).

                B) And when the girl [who was] buried alive is asked. For what sin she was killed. (Surah 81:8-9).

                C) It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error. (Surah 62:2).

                2) It is sad to see how some Arabs repeat the arrogance of the disbelieving Jews:

                A) And [recall, O Children of Israel], when Moses said to His people, "Remember the favor of Allah upon you when He saved you from the people of Pharaoh, who were afflicting you with the worst torment and were slaughtering your [newborn] sons and keeping your females alive. And in that was a great trial from your Lord. (Surah 14:6).

                B) Say, "O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful." But they will not wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers. (Surah 62:6-7).
                Last edited by OneLifeResults; 13-12-17, 03:06 AM.

                Comment


                • Op seems to be either cluless or just another Ignorant hating on Ibn Taymiyyah Rahimahullah,

                  All the Ulema are agreed that Taqwa is the criteria which elevates on in the sight of Allah عز و جل

                  But he's fixated on the Superiority of the Arabs, over the non Arabs, as though the Sheikh was praising Evildoers amongst the Arabs,

                  Nauzibillah
                  http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                  "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                  Comment


                  • These kinds of exhumations appear to be driven by the dalalah/misguidance of Sufiism, either by sufi followers, or those inspired by sufi deviations who are misdirected ignoramuses to attack "WAHHABIS" in their attempt to destroy "Salafis" and weaken the following of shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab (rh) and shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (rh). It is their demonic attempt to uproot 'Wahhabism'. The Tawaghit (Rand Corp Report) have pinpointed the ideological threat to the Taghut world order. The neo-Orientalists have helped Sufis by pointing to these two shuyukh as the major figures of the Salaf was Salih. Like zombie hordes, the Sufis have made it their Jihad. But a Jihad fisabiTaghut. Insha Allah I am preparing an explanation of how the Sufis brought about the internal downfall of the Ottoman khilafah, with their shirk and sihr, and eventually their adoption of kufr laws and kufr ideologies. It was their deviations that destroyed the internal society, making it vulnerable to external invasions and machinations. And now, the Sufis are utterly in darkness, slaves of the Taghut.
                    Allahumma, aranee al haqqu haqqan wa arzuqnee itiba`ahu, wa aranee al baatilu baatilaan wa arzuqnee ijtinaabahu.Oh Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
                    " Do you know what destroys Islam? A mistake made by a scholar, the argument of a hypocrite in writing and the ruling of leaders who wish for people to stray

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
                      These kinds of exhumations appear to be driven by the dalalah/misguidance of Sufiism, either by sufi followers, or those inspired by sufi deviations who are misdirected ignoramuses to attack "WAHHABIS" in their attempt to destroy "Salafis" and weaken the following of shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab (rh) and shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (rh). It is their demonic attempt to uproot 'Wahhabism'. The Tawaghit (Rand Corp Report) have pinpointed the ideological threat to the Taghut world order. The neo-Orientalists have helped Sufis by pointing to these two shuyukh as the major figures of the Salaf was Salih. Like zombie hordes, the Sufis have made it their Jihad. But a Jihad fisabiTaghut. Insha Allah I am preparing an explanation of how the Sufis brought about the internal downfall of the Ottoman khilafah, with their shirk and sihr, and eventually their adoption of kufr laws and kufr ideologies. It was their deviations that destroyed the internal society, making it vulnerable to external invasions and machinations. And now, the Sufis are utterly in darkness, slaves of the Taghut.
                      Sufis are dodgy as hell, always governemnt stooges especially of bathists, well all governments, i look forward to what u will say

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by OneLifeResults View Post

                        1) I would like to add that Arabs were very evil people before Islam. Aside from their shirk, they use to bury their daughters alive:

                        A) And when one of them is informed of [the birth of] a female, his face becomes dark, and he suppresses grief. He hides himself from the people because of the ill of which he has been informed. Should he keep it in humiliation or bury it in the ground? Unquestionably, evil is what they decide. (Surah 16:58-59).

                        B) And when the girl [who was] buried alive is asked. For what sin she was killed. (Surah 81:8-9).

                        C) It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error. (Surah 62:2).

                        2) It is sad to see how some Arabs repeat the arrogance of the disbelieving Jews:

                        A) And [recall, O Children of Israel], when Moses said to His people, "Remember the favor of Allah upon you when He saved you from the people of Pharaoh, who were afflicting you with the worst torment and were slaughtering your [newborn] sons and keeping your females alive. And in that was a great trial from your Lord. (Surah 14:6).

                        B) Say, "O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful." But they will not wish for it, ever, because of what their hands have put forth. And Allah is Knowing of the wrongdoers. (Surah 62:6-7).
                        no ones saying other than arab nazis, that being arab gets you in jannah or guarantees you goodness, infact an arab kaafir is worse than a non arab kaafir

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu Kamel View Post
                          These kinds of exhumations appear to be driven by the dalalah/misguidance of Sufiism, either by sufi followers, or those inspired by sufi deviations who are misdirected ignoramuses to attack "WAHHABIS" in their attempt to destroy "Salafis" and weaken the following of shaykh Muhammad ibn Abdul Wahhab (rh) and shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah (rh). It is their demonic attempt to uproot 'Wahhabism'. The Tawaghit (Rand Corp Report) have pinpointed the ideological threat to the Taghut world order. The neo-Orientalists have helped Sufis by pointing to these two shuyukh as the major figures of the Salaf was Salih. Like zombie hordes, the Sufis have made it their Jihad. But a Jihad fisabiTaghut. Insha Allah I am preparing an explanation of how the Sufis brought about the internal downfall of the Ottoman khilafah, with their shirk and sihr, and eventually their adoption of kufr laws and kufr ideologies. It was their deviations that destroyed the internal society, making it vulnerable to external invasions and machinations. And now, the Sufis are utterly in darkness, slaves of the Taghut.
                          1) You are better than this akhi. Please stop repeating the propaganda of the Salafis:

                          A) O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do. (Surah 5:8)

                          B) O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful. (Surah 49:6).

                          C) "O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. " (Surah 49:12).

                          2) This thread is not about Sufis or the Uthmani khilafah, so please stay on topic:

                          A) To be honest with you, Ibn Taymiyyah said things worse than this.

                          B) I can easily bring up those things, but I choose to focus on me instead of attacking him.
                          Last edited by OneLifeResults; 13-12-17, 04:13 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by OneLifeResults View Post

                            1) You are better than this akhi. Please stop repeating the propaganda of the Salafis:

                            A) O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm for Allah , witnesses in justice, and do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Be just; that is nearer to righteousness. And fear Allah ; indeed, Allah is Acquainted with what you do. (Surah 5:8)

                            B) O you who have believed, if there comes to you a disobedient one with information, investigate, lest you harm a people out of ignorance and become, over what you have done, regretful. (Surah 49:6).

                            C) "O you who have believed, avoid much [negative] assumption. Indeed, some assumption is sin. " (Surah 49:12).

                            2) This thread is not about Sufis or the Uthmani khilafah, so please stay on topic:

                            A) To be honest with you, Ibn Taymiyyah said things worse than this.

                            B) I can easily bring up those things, but I choose to focus on me instead of attacking him.
                            Ibn Taymiyyah Rahimahullah was one of the righteous Scholars of the past, majority of the ulema also concur.

                            It's rather Devious to slander Shuyookh and mislead people like the op is doing.

                            Nauzibillah min zaliq
                            http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                            "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Khalid b. Walid View Post
                              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?



                              That makes sense.

                              Banu Hashim has been preferred over the other clans of Quraish. This can be seen by the Prophet (saw) and the Mahdi coming from Banu Hashim.

                              And Quraish has been preferred to the other Arab tribes. This can be seen from it being sunnah for the Caliph to come from Quraish. Did any of the other Arab tribes shout 'racist' because of this? Of course not.

                              Similarly the Arabs have been preferred over the non-Arabs. This can be seen by them having the honour of the Quran being revealed in their language and them having the honour of forming the bulk of the Sahaba (ra).

                              This probably sums it up from that article:

                              Therefore the preference of Arabs over other nations, and the preference of some Arabs over other Arabs is affirmed in the Sacred Law. Allah has even preferred some months over other months and some days and nights of over others, as well as places. So in the same way, Allah Glorious and Exalted is He, has chosen some men over others, such as the prophets over others and even some prophets over other prophets.

                              I remember brother Hamza89 mentioning in the other (deleted) thread on this that it has to do with virtues.

                              You have to look at it in context.

                              Med has made a good point that the OP is trying to paint this is as a 'master race' argument when its not. Our worth is determined by our piety. An non-Arab can surpass an Arab and an Arab can surpass a non-Arab.
                              Op is a complete Jahil. Allah Azzawajal also stated that he preferred the children of Israel over other nations before,

                              Cluless individuals like the op would shout master race nonsense, whereas the rest of the Muslimeen know that any honour, preference Allah عز و جل gives anyone is conditional, as Allah عز و جل pointed out in the Qur'an.

                              Jazakallahu khair akhi
                              http://www.ilovepalestine.com/campai...imesinGaza.gif

                              "It does not befit the lion to answer the dogs."

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Saif-Uddin View Post

                                Ibn Taymiyyah Rahimahullah was one of the righteous Scholars of the past, majority of the ulema also concur.

                                It's rather Devious to slander Shuyookh and mislead people like the op is doing.

                                Nauzibillah min zaliq
                                1) I do not agree with your view of Ibn Taymiyyah, in fact, I really hate him:

                                A) However, like I said before, I want to focus on me instead of attacking him.

                                Comment

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