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Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
    1) This is my last post in this website: I am done.

    A) Please read this thread carefully and reflect: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ikhs(Reminder)

    Comment


      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

      Originally posted by Learnerofknowledge View Post
      Aren't all those hadith weak and cannot corborate each other? I heard early scholars did not use weak hadith supporting each other.
      They might be.

      The point I was trying to address is that if you avoid one scholar based on something you should be consistent and avoid the others who said the same thing.

      I also wanted to point out that Ibn Taymiyyah is not alone on this issue as he was falsely accused.
      Watch those eyes

      Comment


        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

        Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
        1) This is my last post in this website: I am done.

        A) Please read this thread carefully and reflect: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ikhs(Reminder)
        You have already said that.

        Now you are just spamming the thread to get attention.
        Watch those eyes

        Comment


          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

          Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
          A new breed of your type seems rampant accusing others of jahl and shirk. A breed who seems not to know too much.

          Hence, let it be known that what you think has no value.
          Watch those eyes

          Comment


            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

            Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
            1) This is my last post in this website: I am done.

            A) Please read this thread carefully and reflect: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ikhs(Reminder)
            Inshallah: http://legacy.quran.com/18/23-24

            Comment


              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

              Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
              What are you even saying?
              Originally posted by Abu Najm
              it is perfectly good to say that Mexicans are better than Arabs or Europeans are better than Arabs
              If we agree with the logic which states that Arabs are not superior to non-Arabs, then there are two possibilities according to this: 1) non-Arabs are superior to Arabs; or 2) all nations/tribes/races are equal to one another.

              According to opinion #1 based on Shu'ubiyyah, "it is perfectly good to say that Mexicans are better than Arabs or Europeans are better than Arabs."

              According to opinion #2 based on Shu'ubiyyah, it is racist to say any tribe/nation/race is better than another.

              What people in the West have been conditioned to think is that "stereotype=racism", when this necessitates that everyone alive today is "racist" to some extent.

              The definition of "stereotype" is: "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing."

              An example given in the definition is: "the stereotype of the woman as the carer".

              A person who generalizes or stereotypes a woman is considered "misogynistic" by Western standards. A person who generalizes or stereotypes a race is considered "racist" by Western standards. However, as Muslims we do not follow the values and standards of the West in determining what is "normal" or "standard".

              Many scholars have discussed this matter in depth and with many proofs, both Ijtihadi and Tawqeefi. I don't think it's necessary that we relive the same old disagreements from those people on the forum who refuse to acknowledge the authority of Islamic scholarship in every single discussion.

              However, for those people on the forum who do accept the authority of Islamic scholarship, especially their consensus, then there has to be an attempt to understand the point of view of the scholars. Too often the discussion devolve into individuals asserting and defending their own personal perspectives or opinions.

              I don't think you're doing that [MENTION=113309]Linkdeutscher[/MENTION], so that is why I'm responding to you.

              Just look at the paradox that is the "superiority" of the Arab over the non-Arab in Islamic beliefs. On one hand, the "superiority" translates into more responsibility and less advantages, i.e. leadership and no Zakaah. The person whose pronunciation of Arabic is best cannot pray behind the one who makes major errors in recitation. And there are a whole host of Fiqh rulings that differ based on a perceived proficiency or deficiency in the "Arabness' of those involved.

              Some people in the discussion have expressed the idea that Allah's choosing the Arabs from which to send Muhammad SAWS was simply "chance" or "arbitrary" so that the ways in which we imitate the Prophet SAWS are in imitation of his person specifically and not "Arabs". This is simply a way of reasoning that the same conclusion as the opposing argument arrived by a different route.

              The Prophet SAWS was an Arab and thus his sayings, actions, behaviors, characteristics, etiquette, norms, preferences, dress, etc. were all codified as either "obligatory" or "recommended". At the moment of codification, the Prophet's "Arabness" became "obligatory" or "recommended" even for the non-Arab.

              As for the person of the Prophet SAWS, then his "Arabness" cannot be divorced from him. No other race can boast of having originated the last and final Prophet, whose personal preferences and habits were codified as "obligatory" or "recommended", thus preserving the best aspects of their own culture for all time and places.

              Some people in this thread have tried to point out some evils that were prevalent among the Arabs in Jahiliyyah in a meager attempt at attributing the evil to "Arabness". But according to the logic that generalizing about race is wrong and contrary to the Quran, attributing the actions of some Arabs in Jahiliyyah to all Arabs is wrong. According to the correct application of the logic involved in the consensus of the scholars on the superiority of Arabs over non-Arabs, any evil aspect of Arab culture was carefully and systematically removed by the tutelage and example of the Prophet SAWS over the course of 23 years. So that what remained in the practice of the Prophet SAWS and his Companions RA was a resulting redaction of Arab culture that would serve as the best example for humanity until the Hour.

              Yes, many different cultures observe a type of clothing referred to as "khamees". Even Spanish-speaking people around the world call their shirts "camisa" based on the Arabic word. And many, many different types of clothing which covers the upper-body, no matter the language or word, is "permissible". Yet the "recommended" type of قميص or خميصة will always be the ones that the Prophet SAWS preferred. And they are undoubtedly forms known to or common to the Arabs.

              In fact, preferring specifically non-Arab types of clothing is prohibited in Islam.

              It's really sad that people feel the need to impose Western standards and concepts on Islam and Muslims. It's equally sad to see people who wish to be seen as good Muslims, opposing the consensus of Islamic scholars on issues of belief and doing so without a single scholarly rebuttal or opinion.

              Another way to look at this concept of "Arab superiority" in Islam, is to re-frame the matter differently. For those who agree that Arabic is the best of all languages, even if only because the Quran and Sunnah are in Arabic, then how do you think non-Muslim, non-Arabs view this opinion- regardless of your reason for it? They will most definitely view this opinion as racist and pro-Arab, not pro-Islam.

              Even things like growing a beard, wearing a Thawb or Imaamah, women wearing Hijab, not shaking hands with women, etc. are all seen by non-Arab, non-Muslims, and unfortunately even some who claim to be Muslim, as "Arab culture" and not from the "religion" of Islam.

              This 3rd-party perspective should inform the incorrect perception of those who have different reasons for following the recommendations and dictates of Islam. Their own outward form and appearance is a representation of "Arabness" to observers. So despite your disagreement with the belief of Arab superiority, your actions and sayings prove the opposite to the outside observer.

              Comment


                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                You have already said that.

                Now you are just spamming the thread to get attention.
                On the side, may I ask you something regarding tirmidhi hadith as there is a hadith related to it on this topic?

                Comment


                  Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                  Originally posted by Abdell View Post
                  Abu Sufyan clearly stated an Arab is "Superior" even if the taqwa is the same. Thats ahkira implications.
                  Do u know the meaning of my saying better than me?

                  Anyways.

                  Lemme say it again.

                  Arab race is better than any other race.

                  Allah has chosen that race.

                  It doesn't mean specific Arab is better than specific non-arab.

                  It's all about the whole race.

                  This thing must be believed and we don't have to do anything about it.

                  Allah did what he wills and it's Allah's fadl and hikma.

                  So its dunya stuff.

                  You just have to love this race as Allah has chosen it and sent his last messenger from it.

                  Very easy.

                  If you understand anything else I just clarified my opinion
                  Last edited by Abu-Sufyaan; 24-09-17, 02:28 PM.
                  إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

                  Comment


                    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                    Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
                    Do u know the meaning of my saying better than me?

                    Anyways.

                    Lemme say it again.

                    Arab race is better than any other race.

                    Allah has chosen that race.

                    It doesn't mean specific Arab is better than specific non-arab.

                    It's all about the whole race.

                    This thing must be believed and we don't have to do anything about it.

                    Allah did what he wills and it's Allah's fadl and hikma.

                    So its dunya stuff.

                    You just have to love this race as Allah has chosen it and sent his last messenger from it.

                    Very easy.

                    If you understand anything else I just clarified my opinion
                    huh

                    Comment


                      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                      [QUOTE=AbuNajm;7473949]If we agree with the logic which states that Arabs are not superior to non-Arabs, then there are two possibilities according to this: 1) non-Arabs are superior to Arabs; or 2) all nations/tribes/races are equal to one another.

                      According to opinion #1 based on Shu'ubiyyah, "it is perfectly good to say that Mexicans are better than Arabs or Europeans are better than Arabs."

                      According to opinion #2 based on Shu'ubiyyah, it is racist to say any tribe/nation/race is better than another.

                      What people in the West have been conditioned to think is that "stereotype=racism", when this necessitates that everyone alive today is "racist" to some extent.

                      The definition of "stereotype" is: "a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing."

                      An example given in the definition is: "the stereotype of the woman as the carer".

                      A person who generalizes or stereotypes a woman is considered "misogynistic" by Western standards. A person who generalizes or stereotypes a race is considered "racist" by Western standards. However, as Muslims we do not follow the values and standards of the West in determining what is "normal" or "standard".

                      Many scholars have discussed this matter in depth and with many proofs, both Ijtihadi and Tawqeefi. I don't think it's necessary that we relive the same old disagreements from those people on the forum who refuse to acknowledge the authority of Islamic scholarship in every single discussion.

                      However, for those people on the forum who do accept the authority of Islamic scholarship, especially their consensus, then there has to be an attempt to understand the point of view of the scholars. Too often the discussion devolve into individuals asserting and defending their own personal perspectives or opinions.

                      I don't think you're doing that [MENTION=113309]Linkdeutscher[/MENTION], so that is why I'm responding to you.

                      Just look at the paradox that is the "superiority" of the Arab over the non-Arab in Islamic beliefs. On one hand, the "superiority" translates into more responsibility and less advantages, i.e. leadership and no Zakaah. The person whose pronunciation of Arabic is best cannot pray behind the one who makes major errors in recitation. And there are a whole host of Fiqh rulings that differ based on a perceived proficiency or deficiency in the "Arabness' of those involved.

                      Some people in the discussion have expressed the idea that Allah's choosing the Arabs from which to send Muhammad SAWS was simply "chance" or "arbitrary" so that the ways in which we imitate the Prophet SAWS are in imitation of his person specifically and not "Arabs". This is simply a way of reasoning that the same conclusion as the opposing argument arrived by a different route.

                      The Prophet SAWS was an Arab and thus his sayings, actions, behaviors, characteristics, etiquette, norms, preferences, dress, etc. were all codified as either "obligatory" or "recommended". At the moment of codification, the Prophet's "Arabness" became "obligatory" or "recommended" even for the non-Arab.

                      As for the person of the Prophet SAWS, then his "Arabness" cannot be divorced from him. No other race can boast of having originated the last and final Prophet, whose personal preferences and habits were codified as "obligatory" or "recommended", thus preserving the best aspects of their own culture for all time and places.

                      Some people in this thread have tried to point out some evils that were prevalent among the Arabs in Jahiliyyah in a meager attempt at attributing the evil to "Arabness". But according to the logic that generalizing about race is wrong and contrary to the Quran, attributing the actions of some Arabs in Jahiliyyah to all Arabs is wrong. According to the correct application of the logic involved in the consensus of the scholars on the superiority of Arabs over non-Arabs, any evil aspect of Arab culture was carefully and systematically removed by the tutelage and example of the Prophet SAWS over the course of 23 years. So that what remained in the practice of the Prophet SAWS and his Companions RA was a resulting redaction of Arab culture that would serve as the best example for humanity until the Hour.

                      Yes, many different cultures observe a type of clothing referred to as "khamees". Even Spanish-speaking people around the world call their shirts "camisa" based on the Arabic word. And many, many different types of clothing which covers the upper-body, no matter the language or word, is "permissible". Yet the "recommended" type of قميص or خميصة will always be the ones that the Prophet SAWS preferred. And they are undoubtedly forms known to or common to the Arabs.

                      In fact, preferring specifically non-Arab types of clothing is prohibited in Islam.

                      It's really sad that people feel the need to impose Western standards and concepts on Islam and Muslims. It's equally sad to see people who wish to be seen as good Muslims, opposing the consensus of Islamic scholars on issues of belief and doing so without a single scholarly rebuttal or opinion.

                      Another way to look at this concept of "Arab superiority" in Islam, is to re-frame the matter differently. For those who agree that Arabic is the best of all languages, even if only because the Quran and Sunnah are in Arabic, then how do you think non-Muslim, non-Arabs view this opinion- regardless of your reason for it? They will most definitely view this opinion as racist and pro-Arab, not pro-Islam.

                      Even things like growing a beard, wearing a Thawb or Imaamah, women wearing Hijab, not shaking hands with women, etc. are all seen by non-Arab, non-Muslims, and unfortunately even some who claim to be Muslim, as "Arab culture" and not from the "religion" of Islam.

                      This 3rd-party perspective should inform the incorrect perception of those who have different reasons for following the recommendations and dictates of Islam. Their own outward form and appearance is a representation of "Arabness" to observers. So despite your disagreement with the belief of Arab superiority, your actions and sayings prove the opposite to the outside observer.[/QUOTE

                      hm
                      Last edited by Learnerofknowledge; 24-09-17, 04:01 PM.

                      Comment


                        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                        Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                        They might be.

                        The point I was trying to address is that if you avoid one scholar based on something you should be consistent and avoid the others who said the same thing.

                        I also wanted to point out that Ibn Taymiyyah is not alone on this issue as he was falsely accused.
                        If i recall the hadith tirmidhi said is hasan gharib, though I have read the following:


                        يحتج الترمذي بغالب الأحاديث التي يطلق عليها (الحسن) إلا أن بعضها لا يكون حجة عنده , وبناء عليه فأرى أن الذهبي- رحمه الله – لم يحالفه الصواب حين قال: عند المحاققة فغالب تحسينات الترمذي ضعاف.

                        إن ما يقول فيه الترمذي (حسن غريب) ليس أقوى مما يقول فيه (حسن) بل في بعض ما يقول فيه (حسن) ما هو أقوى من كثير مما يقول فيه (حسن غريب) كما أن في بعض ذلك ما هو أقوى من بعض ما يقول فيه (حسن) ومن غير شك يوجد في كلا الحكمين الصحيح والحسن لذاته والضعيف المنجبر فلا فرق في القوة الاحتجاجية بين (الحسن) و (حسن غريب).

                        ماتوجد له متابعات أوشواهد ولو كانت الشواهد من حيث عموم المعنى وغير متقاربة في الألفاظ فهذه داخلة في تعريف الحسن عند الترمذي.
                        مالا توجد له متابعات أو شواهد ولكن السند من حيث القوة لا يحتاج إلى عاضد فهذه الحالة لا تدخل في تعريفه للحسن لأنها قوية لذاتها مستغنية عن العاضد.

                        فإطلاق القول بأن غالب تحسينات الترمذي ضعيفة قول غير صحيح فالأصل عنده أن ما يحسنه صالح للاحتجاج به، وكذلك القول بأن كلما حسنه الترمذي فهو حجة قول غير دقيق، ولا يصلح الاعتماد المطلق على قول الترمذي: (حسن) أو (حسن غريب) في الاحتجاج بالأحاديث والعمل بها وذلك لعدم الاتفاق على حجية ما يحسنه بين علماء الحديث.

                        Comment


                          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                          Originally posted by Learnerofknowledge View Post
                          huh
                          yes yes, all you can do is huhing.

                          sheikh Al-Albany said:

                          ذلك لا يُنافِي أنْ يكون جنس العرب أفضل من جنس سائر الأُمَم ، بل هذا الذي أُؤمن به وأعتقده وأَدِينُ اللهَ به وإنْ كنتُ أَلبانِيًّا فإني مسلم ولله الحمد , ذلك لأن ما ذكرتُه مِنْ أفضلية جنس العرب هو الذي عليه أهل السنة والجماعة ، ويدل عليها مجموعة من الأحاديث منها قوله صلى الله عليه وسلم : [ إنّ اللهَ اصْطَفَى مِنْ ولد إبراهيم إسماعيلَ، واصطفى من ولد إسماعيل بني كنانة، واصطفى من بني كنانة قريشاً، واصطفى من قريش بني هاشم، واصطفاني من بني هاشم ] رواه أحمد والترمذي وصحّحه وأصله في مسلم وكذا البخاري .
                          ولكن هذا ينبغي ألّا يَحْمِل العربي على الافتخار بجنسه ؛ لأنه مِنَ أمور الجاهلية التي أبطلها نبيّنا محمد العربي صلى الله عليه وسلم ، كما ينبغي أن لا نجهل السبب الذي به اسْتَحَقَّ العرب الأفضلية ، وهو ما اختصوا به في عقولهم و ألسنتهم وأخلاقهم و أعمالهم ، الأمر الذي أهّلَهُم لأنْ يكونوا حَمَلَة الدعوة الإسلامية إلى الأمم الأخرى ، فإنّه إذا عرف العربي هذا وحافظ عليه أَمْكَنَه أن يكون مثل سَلَفِه عُضواً صالحاً في حمل الدعوة الإسلامية ، أما إذا هو تَجَرّد من ذلك فليس له مِِنَ الفضل شيء ، بل الأعجمي الذي تخلّق بالأخلاق الإسلامية هو خيرٌ منه دون شك ولا ريب " ا.هـ


                          [السلسلة الضعيفة 196/1 باختصار]

                          sheikh ibn uthaymeen said:

                          النسب لا ينفع صاحبه إذا أخَّرَه عن صالح الأعمال ؛ لقوله صلى الله عليه وعلى آله وسلم : ( مَنْ بَطَّأ به عمله لم يُسرِع به نَسَبُه ) .
                          فإنْ لم يبطئ به العمل وسارع إلى الخير وسبق إليه ، فهل يُسرِع به النسب ؟
                          فالجواب : لا شك أن النسب له تأثير وله ميزة ، ولهذا نقول : جنس العرب خيرٌ من غيرهم من الأجناس ، وبنو هاشم أفضل من غيرهم مِنْ قريش كما جاء في الحديث لذلك تجد طبائع العرب غير طبائع غيرهم ، فهم خيرٌ في الفهم ، وخيرٌ في الجلادة ، وخيرٌ في الشجاعة ، وخيرٌ في العلم ، لكن إذا أبطأ بهم العمل صاروا شَرًّا من غيرهم ؛ انظر إلى أبي لهب عم النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم..." ا.هـ


                          [شرح الأربعين ص435 - 436 باختصار]
                          إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

                          Comment


                            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                            I've heard a theory that the Qur'an was revealed to an Arab community because they were the most jahil. That makes more sense to me than those who claim it's because arabs are superior or it makes them so. As for the Prophet's sermon, are people denying that a part of it apparently was "There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab"?
                            "East, west, south, or north makes little difference. No matter what your destination, just be sure to make every journey a journey within. If you travel within, you’ll travel the whole wide world and beyond." - Rule 9. - The Forty Rules of Love.

                            Comment


                              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                              The word 'chosen' is not the same as 'superior', nor is 'lineage' to 'race', or of the 'responsibility' that makes them 'better than' other nations in the sight of Allah (), of which non-Arabs are careless to compete in this virtue, nor is it a threat to their tranquility for them to be concerned.

                              The difference occurs only when Allah () wills it.

                              Only Allah () knows best.

                              Comment


                                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                                A few thoughts on "superior" Arabic culture.

                                http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...waId&Id=195983

                                1- One type was similar to that of the present day, i.e. a man asks the hand of a woman from her guardian or her father, and he gives Mahr (dowry) to her and then he marries her.

                                2- The second type was that a man would say to his wife after she had become clean from her period. "Send for so-and-so and have sexual intercourse with him." Her husband would then keep away from her and would never have sexual intercourse with her till she got pregnant from the other man with whom she had sexual intercourse. When her pregnancy became evident, he husband would have sexual intercourse with her if he wished. Her husband did so (i.e. let his wife have sexual intercourse with some other man) so that he might have a child of noble breed. Such marriage was called as Al-Istibdaa'.

                                3- Another type of marriage was that a group of less than ten men would assemble and enter upon a woman, and all of them would have sexual relation with her. If she became pregnant and delivered a child and some days had passed after delivery, she would send for all of them and none of them would refuse to come, and when they all gathered before her, she would say to them, "You (all) know what you have done, and now I have given birth to a child. So, it is your child O so-and-so!" naming whoever she liked, and her child would be attributed to him and he could not deny him.

                                4- The fourth type of marriage was that many people would enter upon a woman and she would never refuse anyone who came to her. Those were the prostitutes who used to fix banners at their doors as a sign [that they are prostitutes], and he who would wish, could have sexual intercourse with them. If anyone of them got pregnant and delivered a child, then all those men would be gathered for her and they would call the Qaa'if (some person skilled in recognizing the likeness of a child to his father) to them and would let the child be attributed to the man (whom they recognized as his father) and she would let him adhere to him and be called his son. The man would not refuse all that.

                                http://historycollection.co/sex-ancient-times/7/

                                Wife lending is a practice that is associated with pre-Islamic Arabs and it had a very important role to play in society. It was something that actually gave lower class families a way to elevate their rank and perhaps improve their situation and the lives of themselves and their children. While it may sound a bit unsavory and it involved viewing the wife as a more of a commodity than a person, there were rules that the husband had to follow as well.

                                If a lower-class family wanted to increase their status they could do so by lending the wife to another man. They would choose a man that had the attributes and status that they wanted for their children and then would arrange for the wife to live with him. The wife would live with the chosen man until she became pregnant.

                                Once the woman became pregnant she would return to her husband and the child she carried would be considered that of the husband and not the man who had impregnated her. However, there was a caveat. Society would only consider the child to be that of the husband if he had refrained from having sex for the entire time that his wife was away.

                                Women were viewed as little more than property in pre-Islamic Arabia and therefore had little say in whether or not she was lent to someone else as those were decisions left for men. It was not until 586 that women were even considered to be human.

                                Comment

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