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Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

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    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
    Ok I asked this question because it has somehow a relationship with the topic we are talking about here.
    I don't have knowledge for that question.
    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

    Comment


      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

      Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
      Chooses for what? My question is not why, it is what. Stop mixing the two things up. I am not asking why are Arabs better. I am asking in what way are they better.
      That is not mentioned, some scholars have stated the reasons of the hikmah behind it so at most we follow that
      But if you asking for something clear cut them I don't know

      We hear and we obey

      You asked previously, what are its implications?

      Well the answer really is not much at all, as Zeeshan stated, it really makes no difference to a Muslim, it's just something we believe as it has come, in no way does it mean they are higher in the sight of Allah, nor does it mean we treat eachother differently
      ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

      Comment


        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

        Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
        So they will get better ranks in Jannah? Or they deserve more respect in this dunya? Or you cant marry them if you are non Arab?

        You just have to believe that Allah has chosen this race and loved this race more that any other races and send his last messenger from this race.

        It has nothing else to do..
        إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

        Comment


          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

          Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
          So they will get better ranks in Jannah? Or they deserve more respect in this dunya? Or you cant marry them if you are non Arab?

          No and no
          Only some scholars mentioned the marriage thing as far as I remember
          Nor does it have any clear daleel
          So no need to follow that opinion
          ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

          Comment


            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

            Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
            You just have to believe that Allah has chosen this race and loved this race more that any other races and send his last messenger from this race.

            It has nothing else to do..
            Are you copying me lol?
            ''If the bedouins and city dwellers were to fight between themselves until they wipe each other out, it will surely be less significant than them appointing a taghoot in the land which rules by that which is against the Shari'ah of Islaam which Allah sent his Messenger ﷺ with'' - Sheikh Sulayman bin Sahmaan

            Comment


              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

              Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
              Are you copying me lol?
              :)
              إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

              Comment


                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
                So they will get better ranks in Jannah? Or they deserve more respect in this dunya? Or you cant marry them if you are non Arab?
                Abu Sufyan clearly stated an Arab is "Superior" even if the taqwa is the same. Thats ahkira implications.
                Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

                If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

                Comment


                  Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                  Originally posted by Muwahid_ View Post
                  When the prophet (SAW) said: there is no superiority of an Arab over a non-Arab?

                  Why you believe that everyone who doesn't accept the tafdhil (superiority) of the Arab race, is a deviant and innovator, when you are giving precedence to Salafis scholars' rulings over the rulings of the prophet (SAW)? Why hasn't the superiority of the Arab race ever mentioned in the Quran or authentic hadiths?

                  Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) was of the opinion that Arabs ARE SUPERIOR (Afdal) than Non-Arabs and he claimed that this was the view that was held by the MAJORITY of the scholars – ‘Al-Jamhoor’- .

                  He wrote: “And the MAJORITY of scholars are of the opinion that the Arab species is better (Afdal) than the Non-Arab (species) just as the nation of Quraish is better (Afdal) than the Non-Qurai****e nations and (just as) the nation of Bani Haashim is better (Afdal) than the Non-Bani Haashim (nations).” Majm’u Al-Fataawa 19/29

                  Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) wrote:

                  “Verily, what Ahlul Sunnah is upon: Is the BELIEF (I’tiqaad) that the Arab race is better (Afdal) then the Non-Arab race. Whether (the Non-Arabs) are Hebrews, Aramaic, Romans, Persians and other than them…”. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/419

                  Abu Muhammad, Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany (died 280 – ra) who was one of the students and companions of Imaam Ahmed (ra) also mentioned this point when he wrote about the descriptions and BELIEFS of the PEOPLE OF THE SUNNAH.


                  Shiekh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) said:

                  “Know that the Ahaadith (that show) the superiority of Quraish and then the superiority of Bani Haashim are numerous and this is not the place (to gather all of them) but they also prove this (superiority of the Arab over Non-Arabs).

                  And this is due to the fact that the relationship of Quraish to the Arabs is just like the relationship of the Arabs to the rest of the people (i.e. Qurai****es are superior to Non-Qurai****es and the Arabs are superior to Non-Arabs). Verily Allah the Most High has designated the Arabs and their language with ‘Ahkaam’ that are peculiar and unique.

                  And then He preferred Quraish over the rest of the Arabs in what He has given them of prophecy and other than that from the ‘Khasaais’ (unique and peculiar qualities)”. Iqtidaa As-Siraat-il-Mustaqeem 2/431

                  Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) also said:

                  “…The superiority of the Arab race and then (the superiority of) Quraish and then (the superiority of) Bani Haashim, is not simply due to the fact the Prophet (peace be upon him) is from them – even though this is (a point) of superiority – but instead, they themselves are superior within themselves“. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/420



                  Source: http://singularvoice.wordpress.com/2...e-master-race/
                  Fear Allah.

                  Comment


                    Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                    Originally posted by The real Mo View Post
                    Fear Allah.
                    Wat
                    You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                    You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                    Comment


                      Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                      Originally posted by ZeeshanParvez View Post
                      I think you should also avoid the books of Ibn Hajar al-Haythami. He wrote a whole book called فضل العرب والنهي عن بغضهم in which he collected hadiith related to the superiority of the Arabs.

                      You should also avoid reading books by Ibn Qutaybah [that is if you ever get to know who he is] as he wrote a book called فضل العرب والتنبيه على علومها

                      You should avoid reading the books by Imaam al-'IraaQi as he wrote a book called محجة القرب في فضل العرب

                      That is a list of a few scholars you should avoid. I will update the list with more classical scholars and contemperary ones who were not Salafi yet said the Arabs were superiror so you can avoid them.

                      Finally, you should also avoid reading Imaam al-Nawawi as Ibn Hajar al-asqalaani and al-Shawkaani have shown that he has claimed Ijmaa on an issue when there was none.
                      Aren't all those hadith weak and cannot corborate each other? I heard early scholars did not use weak hadith supporting each other.

                      Comment


                        Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                        1) I have decided to write one last post to give a better clarity to some Muslims in here:

                        2) Firstly, there are only two sources that Allah has obligated upon us to follow:

                        A) O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.(Surah 4:59)

                        B) And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion.(Surah 4:61)

                        C) The only statement of the [true] believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.(Surah 24:51)

                        D) It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.(Surah 33:36).

                        3) So what did Allah and His Messenger say about this matter:

                        A) Allah said: "O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."(Surah 49:13)

                        B) Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) said: "Allah does not look at your figures, nor at your attire but He looks at your hearts and accomplishments."

                        https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/7

                        4) Allah does not choose someone based on ethnicity, don't you read the Quran?

                        A) But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.(Surah 5:18).

                        B) Say, "O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful."(Surah 62:6).

                        5) So why did Allah choose the Children of Israel and the Sahaba(Mujahideen): Based on their actions, not their ethnicity.

                        A) And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt over his meeting. And we made the Torah guidance for the Children of Israel.And We made from among them leaders guiding by Our command when they were patient and [when] they were certain of Our signs.(Surah 32:23-24).

                        B) Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward.(Surah 4:95).

                        6) Things like being born an Arab has nothing to do with superiority, it is only a favor from Allah just like a person with children and wealth:

                        A) Do they think that what We extend to them of wealth and children. Is [because] We hasten for them good things? Rather, they do not perceive.(Surah 23:55-56).

                        7) Allah also said:

                        A) O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.(Surah 5:54).

                        B) "But if the disbelievers deny it, then We have entrusted it to a people who are not therein disbelievers." (Surah 6:89)

                        C) "And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you." (Surah 47:38).
                        Last edited by Calender121438; 23-09-17, 10:02 PM.

                        Comment


                          Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                          Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                          1) I have decided to write one last post to give a better clarity to some Muslims in here:

                          2) Firstly, there are only two sources that Allah has obligated upon us to follow:

                          A) O you who have believed, obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah and the Messenger, if you should believe in Allah and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.(Surah 4:59)

                          B) And when it is said to them, "Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger," you see the hypocrites turning away from you in aversion.(Surah 4:61)

                          C) The only statement of the [true] believers when they are called to Allah and His Messenger to judge between them is that they say, "We hear and we obey." And those are the successful.(Surah 24:51)

                          D) It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allah and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error.(Surah 33:36).

                          3) So what did Allah and His Messenger say about this matter:

                          A) Allah said: "O mankind, indeed We have created you from male and female and made you peoples and tribes that you may know one another. Indeed, the most noble of you in the sight of Allah is the most righteous of you. Indeed, Allah is Knowing and Acquainted."(Surah 49:13)

                          B) Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him) said: "Allah does not look at your figures, nor at your attire but He looks at your hearts and accomplishments."

                          https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/1/7

                          3) Allah does not choose someone based on ethnicity, don't you read the Quran?

                          A) But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are the children of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish you for your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He has created. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them, and to Him is the [final] destination.(Surah 5:18).

                          B) Say, "O you who are Jews, if you claim that you are allies of Allah , excluding the [other] people, then wish for death, if you should be truthful."(Surah 62:6).

                          4) So why did Allah choose the Children of Israel and the Sahaba(Mujahideen): Based on their actions, not their ethnicity.

                          A) And We certainly gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt over his meeting. And we made the Torah guidance for the Children of Israel.And We made from among them leaders guiding by Our command when they were patient and [when] they were certain of Our signs.(Surah 32:23-24).

                          B) Not equal are those believers remaining [at home] - other than the disabled - and the mujahideen, [who strive and fight] in the cause of Allah with their wealth and their lives. Allah has preferred the mujahideen through their wealth and their lives over those who remain [behind], by degrees. And to both Allah has promised the best [reward]. But Allah has preferred the mujahideen over those who remain [behind] with a great reward.(Surah 4:95).

                          5) Things like being born an Arab has nothing to do with superiority, it is only a favor from Allah just like a person with children and wealth:

                          A) Do they think that what We extend to them of wealth and children. Is [because] We hasten for them good things? Rather, they do not perceive.(Surah 23:55-56).

                          6) Allah also said:

                          A) O you who have believed, whoever of you should revert from his religion - Allah will bring forth [in place of them] a people He will love and who will love Him [who are] humble toward the believers, powerful against the disbelievers; they strive in the cause of Allah and do not fear the blame of a critic. That is the favor of Allah ; He bestows it upon whom He wills. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.(Surah 5:54).

                          B) "But if the disbelievers deny it, then We have entrusted it to a people who are not therein disbelievers." (Surah 6:89)

                          C) "And if you turn away, He will replace you with another people; then they will not be the likes of you." (Surah 47:38).
                          Assalamu alaykom

                          I am not affirming or denying your post , I just have some questions which I am personally curious of. Obviously it is your choice to answer them.

                          1) Would you ever consider studying Islam in depth , through the Sunni traditional method?

                          2) What is your view on the laymen / scholar as it pertains to deducing ahkam and theological positions?

                          3) Who and what is a scholar? Explain this issue in depth , not in a generic way , but with extensive details.

                          Peace

                          Comment


                            Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                            [MENTION=145456]Calender121438[/MENTION]

                            I have read your post patiently. Are you seeking a response , or are you giving us your interpretation , and claiming we are Shaykh worshippers and fake Muslims if we do not agree ( While the scholars who are trained in these matters agree with us , from Maturidi / Ashari's and Salafis .. )

                            Comment


                              Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                              Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                              Allah also "unchose" Bani Isra'eel. However, Bani Isra'eel has a historic "superiority" since no other lineage had as many Prophets remembered until now.

                              What people ignore is the downside to being "chosen" by Allah. The Arabs who did not become Muslim are lower than the Christians and Jews in some ways. One of which is that Jizyah is not accepted from the Arab non-Muslim, rather the only options available to them are to fight or convert to Islam.

                              Allah also referred to Mushrik Arabs as the "worst in Disbelief and Hypocrisy". So with the "superiority" comes the worst type of condemnation for failure.



                              No, "we" can't argue something just because the untrained, unqualified and undisciplined mind of an individual attempts to employ logic to something Tawqeefi.

                              In other words, the principle of the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs is not based on logic, intellect or reason. Rather the principle is based on something revealed and divinely-inspired.

                              So there's no point in attempting to confine the discussion to "logical" proofs, even poorly developed proofs, and argue against the principle.



                              Again, this issue is Tawqeefi, not Ijtihadi. In other words, there is no "reason" or intellectual proof at the basis of this Belief. Some scholars have surmised possible 'Ilal or "reasons" for the Belief, but those are Ijtihadi and subject to debate and discusssion.



                              Sorry but some of these questions are irrelevant. No one said that Arab "Taqwa" is superior to non-Arab "Taqwa".

                              The "kind of superiority" has already been mentioned. There's no reason to extend the parameters of the "superiority" beyond what the scholars mentioned.



                              Wrong. Every scholar of Ahl as-Sunnah believes in the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs. All of them were/are experts in Tafsir of the Quran.

                              You would have to avoid all the works of Ahl as-Sunnah in order to run away from this Belief.



                              It is simply a synonym for "preference" or "choice".



                              What is the "base of the problem"?



                              There is a logical fallacy in the assumptions you make while trying to understand this principle.

                              No one said that Arabs have "inherent superiority". Rather the superiority that Arabs have is an "acquired" superiority. In other words, any individual, from any race, can acquire the same superiority that Arabs as a group have, except for the priority given to Quraysh for Khilaafah.

                              Likewise, any individual Arab who is deficient in the specific attributes which make Arabs superior to non-Arabs, for example, his or her imitation of the non-Arabs, makes them inferior and even worse than a non-Arab who imitates the Arabs, i.e. utilizes the Arabic language, imitates the Prophet SAWS and Salaf, and adheres to the norms of Maru'ah and Islamic Adab.



                              There is racism in every community, Muslim and non-Muslim.

                              The difference between Muslim and non-Muslim communities is that Islam provides the solution to racism without claiming that all races/tribes/cultures/nations are equal.

                              As Muslims, we all agree that the best among us are the most knowledgeable of Allah's Speech, His Laws, and the Sunnah of His Messenger SAWS.

                              All Muslims agree that in order to study Allah's Quran, Laws, and His Messenger's Sunnah, one must know the Arabic language.

                              All Muslims agree that the best Muslim is the one that imitates the Prophet SAWS the closest, and this leads to a person adopting all the characteristics, preferences and behavior of the Prophet SAWS, from how he SAWS looked to how he SAWS walked, talked, prayed, slept, ate, interacted, etc.

                              Any objective observer of such a person would necessarily arrive at the conclusion that this person is "Arabized" and not belonging to any other race, culture, nation, etc. Even if they were from India, Australia, the USA, UK, Somalia, China, etc.

                              Muslims are only experiencing racism amongst ourselves due to abandoning efforts to imitate the Prophet SAWS and abandonment of the Arabic language as our primary language.
                              :jkk:

                              Comment


                                Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                                Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                                [MENTION=145456]Calender121438[/MENTION]

                                I have read your post patiently. Are you seeking a response , or are you giving us your interpretation , and claiming we are Shaykh worshippers and fake Muslims if we do not agree ( While the scholars who are trained in these matters agree with us , from Maturidi / Ashari's and Salafis .. )
                                Jahil or mushrik: https://sunnah.com/riyadussaliheen/18/222: http://legacy.quran.com/9/31

                                Comment

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