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  • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

    Originally posted by Morose View Post
    So what if they are (or aren't)? It's not a big deal. Allah may favour any race or person as Allah wills.

    A Muslim is better than a non-Muslim and there are many Arab non-Muslims, so what does that tell you? It's not as simple as Arabs are better without exception. There is truth to the statement that Arabs are "superior", but not in the way think in that it's not as simple as that.
    Ok, so what do you say to all those shaykhs and preachers who brainwash non-muslims and convert non-muslims by deliberately giving a false impression that orthodox Islam is the least racist religion when in truth as this thread has shown orthodox Islam or Islam as understood by the scholars is literally one of the most racist and supremacist religion in the world.

    Comment


    • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

      Originally posted by As-Suhoobiyah View Post
      Ok, so what do you say to all those shaykhs and preachers who brainwash non-muslims and convert non-muslims by deliberately giving a false impression that orthodox Islam is the least racist religion when in truth as this thread has shown orthodox Islam or Islam as understood by the scholars is literally one of the most racist and supremacist religion in the world.
      How is it racist? If a person however distorts the meaning of superiority here then that's false and his wrongdoing but Islam isn't a racist religion.

      Comment


      • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

        Originally posted by Morose View Post
        How is it racist? If a person however distorts the meaning of superiority here then that's false and his wrongdoing but Islam isn't a racist religion.
        The essence of an arab is better than the essence of non-arab.

        If this statement is not racist and does not promote racial supremacism then I don't know what is. And this is the belief of the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah wal Jamaa.

        Comment


        • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

          Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post
          That if they became Muslims they would have a natural superiority over other non Arab Muslims.
          it's dunya stuff has no relationship with akhera

          like Allah said here:

          Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 247:
          وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا قَالُوا أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ عَلَيْنَا وَنَحْنُ أَحَقُّ بِالْمُلْكِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ يُؤْتَ سَعَةً مِّنَ الْمَالِ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَزَادَهُ بَسْطَةً فِي الْعِلْمِ وَالْجِسْمِ وَاللَّهُ يُؤْتِي مُلْكَهُ مَن يَشَاءُ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

          And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.
          (English - Shakir)
          إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

          Comment


          • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

            Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
            it's dunya stuff has no relationship with akhera

            like Allah said here:

            Surah Al-Baqara, Verse 247:
            وَقَالَ لَهُمْ نَبِيُّهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ قَدْ بَعَثَ لَكُمْ طَالُوتَ مَلِكًا قَالُوا أَنَّىٰ يَكُونُ لَهُ الْمُلْكُ عَلَيْنَا وَنَحْنُ أَحَقُّ بِالْمُلْكِ مِنْهُ وَلَمْ يُؤْتَ سَعَةً مِّنَ الْمَالِ قَالَ إِنَّ اللَّهَ اصْطَفَاهُ عَلَيْكُمْ وَزَادَهُ بَسْطَةً فِي الْعِلْمِ وَالْجِسْمِ وَاللَّهُ يُؤْتِي مُلْكَهُ مَن يَشَاءُ وَاللَّهُ وَاسِعٌ عَلِيمٌ

            And their prophet said to them: Surely Allah has raised Talut to be a king over you. They said: How can he hold kingship over us while we have a greater right to kingship than he, and he has not been granted an abundance of wealth? He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.
            (English - Shakir)
            You have all been repeating your superior rhetoric and saying it's dunya stuff, but fail to exactly explain what all of it means.

            What exactly does it mean that an Arab is better than a non Arab?

            And that verse has nothing to do with being 'better', it'sa bout someone being granted a position of authority over others, that doesn't make others inferior or worse somehow.
            You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

            You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

            Comment


            • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

              Originally posted by abufulaans View Post
              What means that the Arab is just better, in the dunya
              What does that even mean? Better how? What does better mean? Throwing ambiguous words around won't bring us anywhere. State your beliefs explicitly.

              What are the results of this supposed 'betterness'? What are the effects?
              You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

              You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

              Comment


              • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                So according to the logic of those who disagree with the Ijmaa' as claimed by Ibn Taymiyyah and Harb al-Kirmani and hereto not challenged by any other scholars, it is perfectly good to say that Mexicans are better than Arabs or Europeans are better than Arabs
                What are you even saying?
                You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                Comment


                • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                  Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post

                  What exactly does it mean that an Arab is better than a non Arab?

                  .
                  Means that Allah has chose the whole race like tha hadith said

                  Why did Allah do that?

                  surat al hajj 75( God chooses messengers from among the angels, and from among the people. God is Hearing and Seeing.)

                  surat al zukhrouff 32 (and We elevated some of them in rank above others)

                  surat al baqara ( He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.)

                  and ibn taymeya supposed that Allah has chose them after he said "wallahu Alaam" he meant that it's Allah's hikma and fadl before anything else.

                  he said:

                  سبب هذا الفضل - والله أعلم - ما اختصوا به في عقولهم وألسنتهم وأخلاقهم وأعمالهم ، وذلك أن الفضل إما بالعلم النافع ، وإما بالعمل الصالح ، والعلم له مبدأ ، وهو قوة العقل الذي هو الحفظ والفهم ، وتمام وهو قوة المنطق الذي هو البيان والعبارة ، والعرب هم أفهم من غيرهم ، وأحفظ وأقدر على البيان والعبارة ، ولسانهم أتم الألسنة بيانا ، وتمييزا للمعاني جمعا وفرقا ، يجمع المعاني الكثيرة في اللفظ القليل .
                  وأما العمل فإن مبناه على الأخلاق ، وهي الغرائز المخلوقة في النفس ، وغرائزهم أطوع للخير من غيرهم ، فهم أقرب للسخاء والحلم والشجاعة والوفاء وغير ذلك من الأخلاق المحمودة
                  إذا هبَّت رياحك فاغتنمها ** فعقبى كل خَافِقَةٍ سكونُ

                  Comment


                  • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                    Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                    4) Then finally read this thread to see if you are worshiping Allah or Ibn Taymiyyah: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ikhs(Reminder)


                    Assalamu alaykom

                    A part of me sees you as a sincere individual. Though I disagree with you in a major way , I do not sense that you are trolling or being insincere. But sincerity does not necessarily lead to truth. You can sincerely believe in falsehood via logical / scriptural fallacies.

                    What sincerity does enable , is the ability to reason and show humility. So my intent is just to point out your flaws , hoping your sincerity will grant you stability , by Allah's Will.

                    Your understanding of Shaykh worship is completely extreme and in fact , it is an innovation. Using your reasoning , it is better for us to just do away with the Scholarly tradition which has preeceded us , out of fear of Shaykh worship. Scholars are useless , we have the Quran / Hadith , and what ever does not 'conform' is associating partners with Allah.

                    This understanding is flawed , the "Rabbi worship" of the Jews is not comparable to following the mainstream scholars while they are intending and deriving Ahkam from the Sacred Law upon the principles laid out by the Salaf as Salih.

                    Even if the scholars are in error in matters which exists ikhtilaf or requires Ijtihad , they receive good deeds which the hadith mentions. Following the position of a scholar you believe has taqwa / I'm , even if he is wrong will not constitute as shirk. Many issues of dispute can go more than one way and this is known theologically speaking , from the " Hadith of Banu Quraydah"

                    The Jews and Christians are blameworthy for taking their Rabbis and Priests as Gods besides Allah , in the most truest sense.

                    1) Christians ignore the direct commands and teachings of the Biblical Jesus as he calls them to obediance to the Torah. 97% of Christians acknowledge the 'apostle Paul' as a religious authority , and his central teaching was that Jesus died as a curse so that we would be free from the Law ( Torah ). Christians do not follow any law , they follow their nafs and when questioned on this , they quote Paul and negate Jesus.

                    As the Hadith says " Did they not make halal what Allah made haram .. ?"

                    2) The Jews of Madina disputed directly with the Prophet (saws) as to ruling by what Allah revealed in their Torah. There are ahadith pertaining to this very issue , they refused to stone the adulters , even though it was the clear Hukm in their Torah. The Prophet(saws) then went on to stone them , and he could do such a thing , considering that he was their ruler.

                    Do you recognise the difference ? Imagine how much havoc one can commit , pointing out all the difference of opinions - then recognizing himself the most dhahiri satisfying answer , and oppressing others as mushrikeen.

                    Quote the hadith of raf ul yadayn ( from Bukhari ) to ignorant hanafi laymen then say " Shaykh worship / quote verses of obediance to the Messenger / scholars as Gods )
                    But that is clear cut extremism that no scholar of fiqh would say ( at least I have never come across such standards )

                    Why don't you study Islam in depth and become a scholar? Are you incompetent? Life is holding you down? You are not strong and patient enough to dedicate yourself 24/7 in studying Islam? If so , then you respect those who do that ( the scholars , especially the high calibre ones ) , perhaps they are not wrong. Actually , from a logical standpoint , it is 99% chance they are right and you are wrong. If you deny this based on your novice reading of the Quran and lack of every other necessary form of ilm and sound principle required , then you are openly and shamelessly arrogant.

                    1) Ibn Taymiyyah did not innovate a concept of Arab prefernce / honour / superiority.

                    2) Imam Nawawi prohibits the marriage of an Arab female to a non Arab male , if I am not mistaken.

                    A) He preceeds Ibn Taymiyyah , so it can never be Ibn Taymiyyahs innovation.

                    B) He is not Salafi / Athari. He is Ashari in Aqidah and Salafis disagree with him on certain known issues. Therefore it is not a 'Salafi' contention or problem , it is a Sunni position and it is the reality , and this is known with common sense.

                    Originally posted by Calender121438 View Post
                    1) Subhanallah. I swear by Allah if Islam taught what you said here, I would have left Islam a long time ago:
                    My intent is not to belittle you as a person , and perhaps you can at least see where I am coming from as well.

                    This is proof that your Islam is not founded in noble and far-reaching concepts. This statement is a shortcoming , as far as Submission and Taqwa are concerned. Islam means submission. We don't impose our views on to Islam , we submit regardless of what is being proposed.

                    Allah has infinite knowledge , you are limited and also susceptible to incoherent reasoning. If Allah prefered certain people over others , then Allah is correct. Allah is correct by definition. Orthodox Islam is the religion of Allah. The sincere believer has no choice but to submit.

                    That is all I have the time for at this moment. Hope the message was expressed well , apologise for the lack of reference , I am on a phone.

                    Wa Allahu alam

                    Comment


                    • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                      Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
                      Means that Allah has chose the whole race like tha hadith said

                      Why did Allah do that?

                      surat al hajj 75( God chooses messengers from among the angels, and from among the people. God is Hearing and Seeing.)

                      surat al zukhrouff 32 (and We elevated some of them in rank above others)

                      surat al baqara ( He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.)

                      and ibn taymeya said why Allah has chose them after he said "wallahu Alaam" he meant that it's Allah's hikma and fadl.

                      he said:

                      سبب هذا الفضل - والله أعلم - ما اختصوا به في عقولهم وألسنتهم وأخلاقهم وأعمالهم ، وذلك أن الفضل إما بالعلم النافع ، وإما بالعمل الصالح ، والعلم له مبدأ ، وهو قوة العقل الذي هو الحفظ والفهم ، وتمام وهو قوة المنطق الذي هو البيان والعبارة ، والعرب هم أفهم من غيرهم ، وأحفظ وأقدر على البيان والعبارة ، ولسانهم أتم الألسنة بيانا ، وتمييزا للمعاني جمعا وفرقا ، يجمع المعاني الكثيرة في اللفظ القليل .
                      وأما العمل فإن مبناه على الأخلاق ، وهي الغرائز المخلوقة في النفس ، وغرائزهم أطوع للخير من غيرهم ، فهم أقرب للسخاء والحلم والشجاعة والوفاء وغير ذلك من الأخلاق المحمودة
                      Umm, yeah that doesn't answer my question and still keeps us at square one. I am not asking why Allah chose them. I am asking what is the meaning and what are the effects of Allah choosing them.
                      You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                      You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                        Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
                        Means that Allah has chose the whole race like tha hadith said

                        Why did Allah do that?

                        surat al hajj 75( God chooses messengers from among the angels, and from among the people. God is Hearing and Seeing.)

                        surat al zukhrouff 32 (and We elevated some of them in rank above others)

                        surat al baqara ( He said: Surely Allah has chosen him in preference to you, and He has increased him abundantly in knowledge and physique, and Allah grants His kingdom to whom He pleases, and Allah is Amplegiving, Knowing.)

                        and ibn taymeya said why Allah has chose them after he said "wallahu Alaam" he meant that it's Allah's hikma and fadl.

                        he said:

                        سبب هذا الفضل - والله أعلم - ما اختصوا به في عقولهم وألسنتهم وأخلاقهم وأعمالهم ، وذلك أن الفضل إما بالعلم النافع ، وإما بالعمل الصالح ، والعلم له مبدأ ، وهو قوة العقل الذي هو الحفظ والفهم ، وتمام وهو قوة المنطق الذي هو البيان والعبارة ، والعرب هم أفهم من غيرهم ، وأحفظ وأقدر على البيان والعبارة ، ولسانهم أتم الألسنة بيانا ، وتمييزا للمعاني جمعا وفرقا ، يجمع المعاني الكثيرة في اللفظ القليل .
                        وأما العمل فإن مبناه على الأخلاق ، وهي الغرائز المخلوقة في النفس ، وغرائزهم أطوع للخير من غيرهم ، فهم أقرب للسخاء والحلم والشجاعة والوفاء وغير ذلك من الأخلاق المحمودة
                        When Hulagu Khan conquered Baghdad, he mass killed arab men and mass violated their women infront of them. Even after the eventual disintegration of Mongols, arabs were ruled over by Tukrs.

                        Right today Syrian arab women are selling their bodies for cash in refugee camps.

                        Doesn't seem like "elevation" to me.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                          Originally posted by Muwahid_ View Post
                          An eminent Scholar of the past that believed Arabs were superior to non-Arabs, and anyone who doesn't accept this is branded an innovator and a deviant. And no, I'm not a Salafi.
                          I have heard such hadithes too. I think these hadithes mean the greatness of Rasulullah PBUH and not a race. Because racism is prohibited and it is contrary to Quran. A hadith can not contradict Quran in phrase or meaning.

                          But this statement that "Arabs or Quraish are superior" reminds me that sentence of Quran that """O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations (2:47) """

                          However there is a big difference, Islam is not a religion for Arabs or Quraish it is the religion for all the world contrary to the religion of Israel tribe. Regardless of this, I think existence of Rasulullah PBUH among Arabs or Quraish is not just a favor rather it has been a great responsibility for them.

                          Considering this I tell you that Quraish or Arabs made many mistakes the same as how Israel tribe did. There are also hadithes that what happened in Israel tribe would happen in this Ummah too.

                          So not only such hadithes can not show the superiority of Quraish or Arabs in a racial sense, rather these hadithes show the great responsibility of Quraish and Arabs, unfortunately history shows they could not preserve this favor.

                          Have you paid attention why Quran tells the story of Israel tribe so much !? sometimes Quran looks like a history book which is mainly focused on Israel tribe ! The most repeated name in Quran is Moses AS !
                          Last edited by ALAS; 23-09-17, 05:55 PM.
                          Note: I am a shia.

                          Comment


                          • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                            Originally posted by Abu-Sufyaan View Post
                            What [MENTION=118642]abufulaans[/MENTION] said what I meant

                            You are the one who ignoring my posts
                            no you buffon racist. You Explicilty said Arabs are superior even if taqwa is equal. Get your racist trash out of here. If i see you IRL am bcertianly going to slap your face you liar.
                            Stop being apologetic to Kuffars!

                            If I don't engage with you or reply to any of your question, it's likely because I find you racist and a total waste of time.

                            Comment


                            • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                              Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                              Assalamu alaykom

                              A part of me sees you as a sincere individual. Though I disagree with you in a major way , I do not sense that you are trolling or being insincere. But sincerity does not necessarily lead to truth. You can sincerely believe in falsehood via logical / scriptural fallacies.

                              What sincerity does enable , is the ability to reason and show humility. So my intent is just to point out your flaws , hoping your sincerity will grant you stability , by Allah's Will.

                              Your understanding of Shaykh worship is completely extreme and in fact , it is an innovation. Using your reasoning , it is better for us to just do away with the Scholarly tradition which has preeceded us , out of fear of Shaykh worship. Scholars are useless , we have the Quran / Hadith , and what ever does not 'conform' is associating partners with Allah.

                              This understanding is flawed , the "Rabbi worship" of the Jews is not comparable to following the mainstream scholars while they are intending and deriving Ahkam from the Sacred Law upon the principles laid out by the Salaf as Salih.

                              Even if the scholars are in error in matters which exists ikhtilaf or requires Ijtihad , they receive good deeds which the hadith mentions. Following the position of a scholar you believe has taqwa / I'm , even if he is wrong will not constitute as shirk. Many issues of dispute can go more than one way and this is known theologically speaking , from the " Hadith of Banu Quraydah"

                              The Jews and Christians are blameworthy for taking their Rabbis and Priests as Gods besides Allah , in the most truest sense.

                              1) Christians ignore the direct commands and teachings of the Biblical Jesus as he calls them to obediance to the Torah. 97% of Christians acknowledge the 'apostle Paul' as a religious authority , and his central teaching was that Jesus died as a curse so that we would be free from the Law ( Torah ). Christians do not follow any law , they follow their nafs and when questioned on this , they quote Paul and negate Jesus.

                              As the Hadith says " Did they not make halal what Allah made haram .. ?"

                              2) The Jews of Madina disputed directly with the Prophet (saws) as to ruling by what Allah revealed in their Torah. There are ahadith pertaining to this very issue , they refused to stone the adulters , even though it was the clear Hukm in their Torah. The Prophet(saws) then went on to stone them , and he could do such a thing , considering that he was their ruler.

                              Do you recognise the difference ? Imagine how much havoc one can commit , pointing out all the difference of opinions - then recognizing himself the most dhahiri satisfying answer , and oppressing others as mushrikeen.

                              Quote the hadith of raf ul yadayn ( from Bukhari ) to ignorant hanafi laymen then say " Shaykh worship / quote verses of obediance to the Messenger / scholars as Gods )
                              But that is clear cut extremism that no scholar of fiqh would say ( at least I have never come across such standards )

                              Why don't you study Islam in depth and become a scholar? Are you incompetent? Life is holding you down? You are not strong and patient enough to dedicate yourself 24/7 in studying Islam? If so , then you respect those who do that ( the scholars , especially the high calibre ones ) , perhaps they are not wrong. Actually , from a logical standpoint , it is 99% chance they are right and you are wrong. If you deny this based on your novice reading of the Quran and lack of every other necessary form of ilm and sound principle required , then you are openly and shamelessly arrogant.

                              1) Ibn Taymiyyah did not innovate a concept of Arab prefernce / honour / superiority.

                              2) Imam Nawawi prohibits the marriage of an Arab female to a non Arab male , if I am not mistaken.

                              A) He preceeds Ibn Taymiyyah , so it can never be Ibn Taymiyyahs innovation.

                              B) He is not Salafi / Athari. He is Ashari in Aqidah and Salafis disagree with him on certain known issues. Therefore it is not a 'Salafi' contention or problem , it is a Sunni position and it is the reality , and this is known with common sense.



                              My intent is not to belittle you as a person , and perhaps you can at least see where I am coming from as well.

                              This is proof that your Islam is not founded in noble and far-reaching concepts. This statement is a shortcoming , as far as Submission and Taqwa are concerned. Islam means submission. We don't impose our views on to Islam , we submit regardless of what is being proposed.

                              Allah has infinite knowledge , you are limited and also susceptible to incoherent reasoning. If Allah prefered certain people over others , then Allah is correct. Allah is correct by definition. Orthodox Islam is the religion of Allah. The sincere believer has no choice but to submit.

                              That is all I have the time for at this moment. Hope the message was expressed well , apologise for the lack of reference , I am on a phone.

                              Wa Allahu alam
                              1) I already responded to you. Please reflect on what I said to you in this thread: http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...ikhs(Reminder)

                              2) To be honest with you, I do not see you as a person sincere to Allah. This is my last post here, for real this time inshallah.

                              Comment


                              • Re: Salafis: why would Ibn Taymiyyah say this, despite the prophet (SAW) last sermon?

                                May Allah grant me sincerity. I have shortcomings in both my personality and knowledge.

                                Comment

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