Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

    You cited unknown authors as proof for an act of worship.

    Think about that.
    ....
    "When you want to cry, laugh.
    If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
      I just want to know how you arrived at your conclusion.
      I'm assuming you are asking about how I think there's an ijma on the issue.

      If everyone of the immediate generations' scholars hold the same view and there are no differences of opinion regarding the permissibility of a subject, isn't that what constitutes a consensus?

      If not, then what does?

      Tawassul was only later outlawed by the much later scholars, whose views are inferior to those of the early generations.


      "When you want to cry, laugh.
      If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bolt View Post
        ...If everyone of the immediate generations' scholars hold the same view...
        If this is true, I'd expect every single dua to be made through intercession. Why? Because nobody would forego the opportunity to be blessed with the intercession of rasoolullah Why make an inferior dua when a much more superior method of getting your dua fulfilled exists?

        Yet, virtually none of the duas we see from the Sunnah or indeed the scholars imply tawassul as referred to here.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

          If this is true, I'd expect every single dua to be made through intercession. Why? Because nobody would forego the opportunity to be blessed with the intercession of rasoolullah Why make an inferior dua when a much more superior method of getting your dua fulfilled exists?

          Yet, virtually none of the duas we see from the Sunnah or indeed the scholars imply tawassul as referred to here.
          This is the strongest argument against this innovation.

          You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

          You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

            If this is true, I'd expect every single dua to be made through intercession. Why? Because nobody would forego the opportunity to be blessed with the intercession of rasoolullah Why make an inferior dua when a much more superior method of getting your dua fulfilled exists?

            Yet, virtually none of the duas we see from the Sunnah or indeed the scholars imply tawassul as referred to here.
            But this is just your view?
            How can one say that something that every classical scholar agreed to is wrong?

            I didn't understand that last part.
            Last edited by Bolt; 07-10-20, 12:47 AM. Reason: Typo
            "When you want to cry, laugh.
            If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

              If this is true, I'd expect every single dua to be made through intercession. Why? Because nobody would forego the opportunity to be blessed with the intercession of rasoolullah Why make an inferior dua when a much more superior method of getting your dua fulfilled exists?

              Yet, virtually none of the duas we see from the Sunnah or indeed the scholars imply tawassul as referred to here.
              Please answer the following
              isn't that what constitutes a consensus?

              If not, then what does?
              "When you want to cry, laugh.
              If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bolt View Post
                ...How can one say that something that every classical scholar agreed to is wrong?...
                How can one know what every classical scholar said?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                  How can one know what every classical scholar said?
                  How many scholars actually wrote books in the first place? And what is the percentage of the survival of these books?

                  Yes. Makes you think again before throwing in easy to use terms like 'every scholar' or 'the scholars'.
                  You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                  You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                    How can one know what every classical scholar said?
                    Well, can you find any which ruled it impermissible?
                    "When you want to cry, laugh.
                    If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post

                      How many scholars actually wrote books in the first place? And what is the percentage of the survival of these books?

                      Yes. Makes you think again before throwing in easy to use terms like 'every scholar' or 'the scholars'.
                      Okay, so it might not be every scholar because we don't have all their works, but shouldn't we use what we have and derive it from that?

                      writings were common afaik
                      Last edited by Bolt; 07-10-20, 01:09 AM. Reason: Typo
                      "When you want to cry, laugh.
                      If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                      Comment


                      • There is a book of duas called 'Al-Hisnul Hasin' by Shaykh Muhammad al-Jazri with a preface by Shaykh Taqi Usmani.

                        On the adab of dua, it says that a Muslim may make dua through the intermediary of the anbiyaa. It says a Muslim should make dua through the intermediary of the pious servants of Allah. It then goes on to say a Muslim should preferably make duas mentioned in the saheeh ahadeeth. For, rasoolullah did not leave out any aspect of human need for which he did not make dua.

                        We may do something, we should do something, but apparently it's preferable to do not it and stick to the Sunnah. Strange, no?

                        In any case, I couldn't find a single dua in the book that involved seeking the intercession through the intermediary of rasoolullah or the pious servants of Allah. Maybe I missed them all.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Bolt View Post

                          Okay, so it might not be every scholar because we don't have all their works, but shouldn't we use what we have and derive it from that?

                          writings were common afaik
                          Strawman.

                          You think you know more than my scholar's qiyās? He was more learned than you and all other scholars combined. Yeah, the devil was the greatest scholar too and look where his qiyās of fire being better than tīn got him. Sorry.

                          You follow your scholar's qiyās, and I will follow the Qur'ān and Sunnah.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post

                            This is the strongest argument against this innovation.
                            Salamun 'alaykum,

                            I'm a little bit surprised to see you saying this, son. Are you putting a faulty reasoning / analogy - or let's say faulty Qiyas! - above what the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - teached (!) and this with the knowledge that there is NOTHING in his statement that indicates specification, but rather the opposite!

                            Who decides which supplication is superior and which not and this while both supplications are said by yourself and the One asked is the same?
                            Then: There is actually a difference between Tawassul bil Dhawat (Tawassul through selves) and the asking for supplication, because in the latter you're asking the creation to supplicate for you while in the first you're supplicating to Allah ta'ala yourself and only using their self (Dhat) as means to one's Lord and this due to their high rank and status! (Both is allowed.)
                            Now the faulty reasoning given does not apply to Tawassul bil Dhawat in any way or form, because you're not asking for supplication in the very first place!


                            There is a famous incident that proves silent consensus (Ijma' sukuti) among the Sahabat al-kiram - radhiallahu 'anhum ajma'in - on the issue of Tawassul bil Dhat:

                            It's reported in Sahih al-Bukhari 2/27 that when there would be a drought 'Umar bin al-Khattab - radhiallahu 'anhu - would use the following supplication upon which they would receive rain (translation taken from this artice: "Tawassul of `Umar through al-`Abbas (Allah be pleased with them)"):

                            اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّا كُنَّا نَتَوَسَّلُ إِلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّنَا فَتَسْقِينَا، وَإِنَّا نَتَوَسَّلُ إِلَيْكَ بِعَمِّ نَبِيِّنَا فَاسْقِنَا

                            "O Allah! We would use our Prophet as a means to You and You then sent us rain; now we use our Prophet's uncle as a means to You, therefore send us rain!"
                            - end of quote -

                            Note that this supplication was done in front of the Sahaba and not a single one of them objected to this, radhiallahu 'anhum ajma'in. So this proves that Tawassul bil Dhawat was accepted by ALL of them!

                            It it is claimed "this applies only to the living and not those who have passed away" (while forgetting that one has claimed Tawassul to be an innovation in the first place!), the answer is:
                            For you to have a point - even if only a very weak one - the wording would have to be something like "now we request our Prophet's uncle to ask You for rain" (which is how "Salafis" - in their dishonesty - translate the above statement!), but the Arabic wording is clearly stating "now we use our Prophet's unlce as a means to You" ("wa inna NATAWASSALU ilayka bi 'ammi nabiyyina").

                            So here 'Umar bin al-Khattab - radhiallahu 'anhu - was LITERALLY AND EXPLICITLY doing Tawassul bil Dhat with al-'Abbas, radhiallahu 'anhu!
                            Note that he doesn't even say "we use al-'Abbas", but rather "we use our Prophet's uncle", so the issue is based upon Tawassul with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - in the very first place!
                            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 07-10-20, 03:24 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                                Salamun 'alaykum,

                                I'm a little bit surprised to see you saying this, son. Are you putting a faulty reasoning / analogy - or let's say faulty Qiyas! - above what the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - teached (!) and this with the knowledge that there is NOTHING in his statement that indicates specification, but rather the opposite!

                                Who decides which supplication is superior and which not and this while both supplications are said by yourself and the One asked is the same?
                                Then: There is actually a difference between Tawassul bil Dhawat (Tawassul through selves) and the asking for supplication, because in the latter you're asking the creation to supplicate for you while in the first you're supplicating to Allah ta'ala yourself and only using their self (Dhat) as means to one's Lord and this due to their high rank and status! (Both is allowed.)
                                Now the faulty reasoning given does not apply to Tawassul bil Dhawat in any way or form, because you're not asking for supplication in the very first place!


                                There is a famous incident that proves silent consensus (Ijma' sukuti) among the Sahabat al-kiram - radhiallahu 'anhum ajma'in - on the issue of Tawassul bil Dhat:

                                It's reported in Sahih al-Bukhari 2/27 that when there would be a drought 'Umar bin al-Khattab - radhiallahu 'anhu - would use the following supplication upon which they would receive rain (translation taken from this artice: "Tawassul of `Umar through al-`Abbas (Allah be pleased with them)"):

                                اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّا كُنَّا نَتَوَسَّلُ إِلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّنَا فَتَسْقِينَا، وَإِنَّا نَتَوَسَّلُ إِلَيْكَ بِعَمِّ نَبِيِّنَا فَاسْقِنَا

                                "O Allah! We would use our Prophet as a means to You and You then sent us rain; now we use our Prophet's uncle as a means to You, therefore send us rain!"
                                - end of quote -

                                Note that this supplication was done in front of the Sahaba and not a single one of them objected to this, radhiallahu 'anhum ajma'in. So this proves that Tawassul bil Dhawat was accepted by ALL of them!

                                It it is claimed "this applies only to the living and not those who have passed away" (while forgetting that one has claimed Tawassul to be an innovation in the first place!), the answer is:
                                For you to have a point - even if only a very weak one - the wording would have to be something like "now we request our Prophet's uncle to ask You for rain" (which is how "Salafis" - in their dishonesty - translate the above statement!), but the Arabic wording is clearly stating "now we use our Prophet's unlce as a means to You" ("wa inna NATAWASSALU ilayka bi 'ammi nabiyyina").

                                So here 'Umar bin al-Khattab - radhiallahu 'anhu - was LITERALLY AND EXPLICITLY doing Tawassul bil Dhat with al-'Abbas, radhiallahu 'anhu!
                                Note that he doesn't even say "we use al-'Abbas", but rather "we use our Prophet's uncle", so the issue is based upon Tawassul with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - in the very first place!
                                Lol why was tawassul done through the prophets uncle? Just for a bit of variety? You are pathetic with your twisted BS.

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X