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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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  • #91
    Prove from the first generations that they didn't do this.

    Demanding proof for a negative.

    Much logic.

    Comment


    • #92
      Can someone from the real mods please stop this guy? I ask even those who agree with the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya on this: Do you want to be represented by a person like the above one?

      If something is disallowed, then one should be able to find scholarly statements saying so. What we found in this thread until now is that scholars - including those from the early generations! - were supporting Tawassul and that the very first person to disallow it was the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) and that the scholars of his own time refuted him on this.
      Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 05-10-20, 05:07 PM.

      Comment


      • #93
        Somebody please stop this guy from arguing and then getting mad when matters are referred back to Allah and his messenger

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        • #94
          Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
          Prove from the first generations that they didn't do this.

          Demanding proof for a negative.

          Much logic.
          There's a whole chapter of the Quran on this, shurah.

          Something from the Sunnah: "Gather together the righteous from among my community and decide the matter with their council and do not decide it by any man’s opinion” (Abu Daud)"

          The Hadith state that they were of the best generations. “The best people are those of my generation, then those who come after them, then those who come after them. (Bukhari, Muslim)

          Combining these reports, I don't see how you can reject their consensus.

          You asked for something from the Quran and Sunnah, so I gave it.The people mentioned in this thread aren't just random people.
          ​​​​​
          How can you deny something that the classical scholars had an 'ijma on?
          "When you want to cry, laugh.
          If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

          Comment


          • #95
            Originally posted by Bolt View Post
            ...How can you deny something that the classical scholars had an 'ijma on?
            I didn't know there was 'ijma on the issue. I'm sorry, I take it all back.

            Comment


            • #96
              mission accomplished
              "When you want to cry, laugh.
              If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

              Comment


              • #97
                Originally posted by Bolt View Post
                mission accomplished
                Just for the record, can you show me this 'ijma please?

                Comment


                • #98
                  Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                  Just for the record, can you show me this 'ijma please?
                  Abu Sulayman
                  "When you want to cry, laugh.
                  If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                  Comment


                  • #99
                    Originally posted by Bolt View Post
                    Seeking intercession already?

                    -_-

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                      Seeking intercession already?

                      -_-
                      Lol.
                      If there weren't scholars before Ibn taymiyyah(661 AH) which claimed it was impermissible, it's clear that the classical scholars were unanimous about it.
                      "When you want to cry, laugh.
                      If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Bolt View Post

                        Lol.
                        If there weren't scholars before Ibn taymiyyah(661 AH) which claimed it was impermissible, it's clear that the classical scholars were unanimous about it.
                        That isn't how it works.

                        Have you come across someone who says there is 'ijma or is it something you assumed?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                          That isn't how it works.
                          Have you come across someone who says there is 'ijma or is it something you assumed?
                          Links at end of post if you want to read the whole thing:

                          1) It should be known that visiting the grave of Prophet (Peace be upon him) is “Masnoon” [Well known] for all Muslims and they have “IJMA” over it, It has such a virtue that It has been prescribed to us as it comes in the hadith of Ibn Umar (ra) [i.e. whosoever visits my grave then my intercession becomes Wajib for him] [Qadhi Iyaad in Ash-Shifa, Volume No.2, Page No. 53]

                          2) There is no disagreement among scholars that supplicating Allah through an intermediary is in principle legally valid.....
                          There is no difference among groups of Muslims in their consensus on the permissibility of three types of supplicating Allah through an intermediary

                          3) There is an ijma amongst the ahl ul Sunnah

                          4) Consensus (ijma) that tawassul is permissible and it will be shown how

                          5) All jurists comprising Imami, Shafi'i, Maliki, Hanafi and Hanbali are unanimous on the permissibility of tawassul whether during the lifetime of Muhammad or after his death.

                          ​​​​​​​6) The Community has reached consensus on the fact that tawassul is permissible when belief is sound

                          References:

                          1- https://www.ahlus-sunna.com/index.ph...=57&Itemid=116

                          2- https://seekersguidance.org/answers/...-intermediary/

                          3- https://vdocuments.site/tawassul-the...l-morning.html

                          4- https://questionsonislam.com/questio...es-and-hadiths

                          5- https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawassul

                          6- https://www.livingislam.org/o/ftaw_e.html
                          "When you want to cry, laugh.
                          If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                          Comment


                          • Asalamu alaikum

                            In Islam we are taught explicitly how we should use the bathroom. We are taught how to enter the masjid with our right foot and what Dua to say. Such intricate details are taught to us

                            If seeking intercession of the prophet sallaho alayhi wasallam or the awliyah by calling upon them in Dua was such a thing why is there more evidence for the duas to enter the bathroom in multiple narrations something so lowly than any narrations teaching us the wording of duas of tawwusul in any remotely authentic chain

                            If it's so important why would we be taught more how to seek refuge in Allah for relieving ourselves than we have for calling upon others than Allah in "tawwusul"

                            @abu Abdullah you've banned people for less intellectual dishonesty than has been showed in this thread I honestly don't know why you are allowing this to continue. Already one person has strayed because of the "teachings" of the psuedo mutazilite that was basically denying the Quran being kalamullah in another thread
                            "My servants, you who have transgressed against yourselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Truly Allah forgives all wrong actions. He is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful." (Surat az-Zumar: 53)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by eesa the kiwi View Post
                              Asalamu alaikum

                              In Islam we are taught explicitly how we should use the bathroom. We are taught how to enter the masjid with our right foot and what Dua to say. Such intricate details are taught to us

                              If seeking intercession of the prophet sallaho alayhi wasallam or the awliyah by calling upon them in Dua was such a thing why is there more evidence for the duas to enter the bathroom in multiple narrations something so lowly than any narrations teaching us the wording of duas of tawwusul in any remotely authentic chain

                              If it's so important why would we be taught more how to seek refuge in Allah for relieving ourselves than we have for calling upon others than Allah in "tawwusul"

                              @abu Abdullah you've banned people for less intellectual dishonesty than has been showed in this thread I honestly don't know why you are allowing this to continue. Already one person has strayed because of the "teachings" of the psuedo mutazilite that was basically denying the Quran being kalamullah in another thread

                              You've presented a faulty argument.
                              Just because something is mentioned less doesn't mean its value is less. Prophet Muhammad is only mentioned 3 times by name in the Quran yet we all know his significance.

                              And you're saying that the consensus of the classical scholars is wrong? How are you guys just ignoring their views? I don't how one following what everyone amongst the classical community agreed upon can be seen as one who has gone astray. In contrast, innovations have made people doubt tawassul and every innovation is a going astray.

                              The Quran and Sunnah have stressed on the importance of the ijma as well.
                              Last edited by Bolt; 06-10-20, 04:05 AM.
                              "When you want to cry, laugh.
                              If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Bolt View Post


                                You've presented a faulty argument.
                                Just because something is mentioned less doesn't mean its value is less. Prophet Muhammad is only mentioned 3 times by name in the Quran yet we all know his significance.

                                And you're saying that the consensus of the classical scholars is wrong? How are you guys just ignoring their views? I don't how one following what everyone amongst the classical community agreed upon can be seen as one who has gone astray. In contrast, innovations have made people doubt tawassul and every innovation is a going astray.

                                The Quran and Sunnah have stressed on the importance of the ijma as well.
                                Since where is there an ijma. You keep repeating this.

                                ​​​​​​
                                "My servants, you who have transgressed against yourselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Truly Allah forgives all wrong actions. He is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful." (Surat az-Zumar: 53)

                                Comment

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