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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Bolt View Post

    Slightly off-topic, but how do you get rulings from classical scholars so easily? If I could I'd rather refer to them rather than the contemporary ones (unless regarding contemporary issues ofc).
    It's not that easy brother. I've also researched these type of issues quite in-depth (from classical sources), because I used to have quite many misunderstandings regarding them (the same as you).
    This is why taking from proper scholars - not the "Saudi" funded Anti-Madhhabis - is actually quite a great blessing, because they will teach you the position of the classical scholars and not positions that only became popular since the last 2 centuries. A scholar who really is reliable is someone like the Shaykh Sayf 'Ali al-'Asri al-Shafi'i.

    Regarding the issue at hand, which the troll doubts:
    Tawassul is supported by authentic, good and weak narrations (note that weak narrations also play a role in Fiqh, because they are not the same as fabricated ones). Putting them together proofs its permissibility beyond any doubt. Claiming otherwise would mean to reject the majority of the issues of Fiqh and therefore invalidating the Shari'a itself! Most issues of Fiqh are supported by some authentic, some good and some weak narrations. If this would be not enough, then we can throw away all Fiqh books!

    This is by the way why the scholars reacted so sensitive to what Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) claimed and IMPRISONED him because of his rejection of Tawassul: They knew that him doubting this ruling would open the door for others to doubt many many other rulings to the degree that the Shari'a itself would be under attack. Additionally: Rejecting Tawasssul with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is an indirect rejection of his high rank and status - which is what Tawassul with him is based upon in the very first place! - after his passing away.

    Regarding the issue of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - agreeing to intercede: It's established that he - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - prays for his Umma!
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 04-10-20, 10:04 PM.


    • #77
      If the state IMPRISONS you it proves you are a deviant.


      • #78
        The khaleefah accused Imam Abu Haneefah of lying then had him jailed and flogged. That proves Abu Haneefah was a liar and a deviant, right?

        The absolute state of this clown.
        Last edited by Abu 'Abdullaah; 04-10-20, 10:41 PM.


        • #79
          It wasn't simply the state! The scholars (!) supported his imprisonment!
          In fact his own Hanbali colleagues disallowed him from giving abnormal Fatawa and this is specifically famous regarding his Fatwa on triple Talaq! Imam Ibn Rajab (d. 795 AH) - who respected him a lot - even called these very Hanbalis who stopped him from giving such Fatawa as upright judges!

          Now if you want to prove that you're not trying to fill the thread with meaningless comments and are really interested in what the classical scholars said on the issue of Tawassul, then please do the following:
          Quote us 5 scholars who lived BEFORE the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) and who clearly and openly disallowed Tawassul! I've already brought more than 5 in support of Tawassul! (I can EASILY bring you even more!)
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 04-10-20, 10:53 PM.


          • #80
            The scholars vs Imam Ahmad. Yeah, I remember how that went.


            • #81
              So the scholars of the 4 Madhahib - including the Hanabila!!! - are now like the Mu'tazila for you?! Allahul musta'an!
              By the way: Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH) himself SUPPORTED Tawassul according to ALL Hanabila - including Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH)!

              And now stop changing the subject: I want the 5 scholars before Ibn Taymiyya, who supported your position! Good luck with finding even one!


              • #82
                Hmm. Maybe 'the state and the scholars were against him' argument doesn't work so well so I'll just change tact.


                • #83
                  Imagine you were guaranteed intercession by the messenger of Allah What an honour that would be. You would give up everything just for the opportunity to ask.

                  The dua of rasoolullah is more than the dua of anyone else.

                  Yet the messenger of Allah didn't encourage everyone to seek his intercession. In fact, instances of advising people to do this are scarce.

                  If the best dua is the dua of the messenger of Allah then surely ALL of our duas should be done by in that manner. Yet, again, it's not from the Sunnah. Every dua from the Sunnah, bar these one or two exceptions, doesn't involve seeking intercession in the manner of the blind man.


                  • #84
                    Who was the [leader of] state and who were the scholars who stood against Ibn Taymiyya's (d. 728 AH) abnormal Fatawa?

                    As for the state:

                    It was the Mamluk state under the leadership of no one less than the honorable Sultan Nasir al-Din (Supporter of the Religion [of Allah]) Muhammad bin Qalawun (d. 741 AH), who was loved by the Muslims as he was one of their heroes!
                    He fought against the Crusaders and the Mongols, and Allah ta'ala blessed him with a great victory in the Battle of Marj al-Saffar (in the year 702 AH) - also known as the Battle of Shahqab - against the Mongols such that the army of the criminal Mongols was annihilated!

                    In the year 705 AH he issued an edict regarding Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) when the latter had crossed his limits as a creation and spoke in a careless manner regarding the Lord of the Worlds, subhanahu wa ta'ala!

                    Ibn Battuta (d. 779 AH) stated in al-Rihla 1/30 (translation of passage taken from wikipedia):

                    وكان سلطان مصر على عهد دخولي إليها الملك الناصر أبو الفتح محمد بن المنصور سيف الدين قلاوون الصالحي وكان قلاوون يعرف بالألفي لأن الملك الصالح اشتراه بألف دينار ذهبا وأصله من قفجق وللملك الناصر رحمه الله السيرة الكريمة والفضائل العظيمة وكفاه شرفا انتماؤه لخدمة الحرمين الشريفين وما يفعله في كل سنة من أفعال البر التي تعين الحجاج من الجمال التي تحمل الزاد والماء للمنقطعين والضعفاء وتحمل من تأخر أو ضعف عن المشي في الدربين المصري والشامي وبنى زاوية بسر ياقص خارج القاهرة

                    The Sultan of Egypt at the time of my entry was al-Malik an-Nasir Abu'l Fath Muhammad, son of al-Malik al-Mansur Saif al-Din Qala-un al-Salihi. Qala'un was known as al-Alfi ['the Thousand-man'] because al-Malik al-Salih bought him for a thousand dinars of gold. He came originally from Qifjaq [Kipchak]. Al-Malik an-Nasir (God's mercy upon him) was a man of generous character and great virtues, and sufficient proof of his nobility is furnished by his devotion to the service of the two holy sanctuaries [of Mecca and Medina] and the works of beneficence which he does every year to assist the pilgrims, in furnishing camels loaded with provisions and water for those without means and the helpless, and for carrying those who cannot keep up with the caravan or are too weak to walk on foot, both on the Egyptian pilgrim-road and on that from Damascus. He also built a great convent at Siryaqus, in the outskirts of Cairo.
                    - end of quote -

                    As for the scholars:

                    Then it should be enough for you to know that the great Imam Taqi al-Din al-Subki (d. 756 AH) wrote against him and his abnormal positions and this is famous regarding him.

                    So let's see who he was and what his rank was:

                    Imam al-Suyuti (d. 911 AH) stated in his Tabaqat al-Huffadh p. 525 - 526 under al-Subki the following:

                    الإِمَام الْفَقِيه الْمُحدث الْحَافِظ الْمُفَسّر الأصولي النَّحْوِيّ اللّغَوِيّ الأديب الْمُجْتَهد تَقِيّ الدّين أَبُو الْحسن عَليّ بن عبد الْكَافِي بن عَليّ بن تَمام بن يُوسُف بن مُوسَى بن تَمام بن حَامِد بن يحيى بن عمر بن عُثْمَان بن عَليّ بن سوار بن سليم شيخ الْإِسْلَام إِمَام الْعَصْر

                    The Imam, the jurist (Faqih), the traditionist (Muhaddith), the Hafidh, the exegete (Mufassir), the legal theorist (Usuli), the theologian (Mutkallim), the grammarian (Nahwi), the linguist (Lughawi), the writer (Adib), the Mujtahid Taqi al-Din Abul Hasan ‘Ali bin ‘Abd al-Kafi bin ‘Ali bin Tammam bin Yusuf bin Musa bin Tammam bin Hamid bin Yahya bin ‘Umar bin ‘Uthman bin ‘Ali bin Miswar bin Sawwar bin Salim, the Shaykh al-Islam and Imam of [his] era.
                    - end of quote -

                    The Adib Salah al-Din al-Safadi (d. 764 AH) - who was a student of both Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) and al-Subki (d. 756 AH) - also called Imam al-Subki as Shaykh al-Islam and praised him in his A'yan al-'Asr wa A'wan al-Nasr 3/416.

                    Imam al-Dhahabi (d. 748 AH) - another student of Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) - stated in his al-'Ibar fi Khabar min Ghabar 4/112 regarding the year 739 AH:

                    وفيه قدم العلامة شيخ الإسلام تقي الدين السبكي على قضاء الشافعية بالشام، وفرح المسلمون به

                    In this [year] al-'Allama Shaykh al-Islam Taqi al-Din al-Subki became the judge of the Shafi'iyya in the Levant (Sham) and the Muslims rejoiced over it.
                    - end of quote -

                    Imam Ibn Kathir (d. 774 AH) - another student of Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) - also mentioned this incident in his al-Bidaya wal Nihaya 14/184 and mentioned that the people rejoiced over this and came to greet him and this DUE TO HIS KNOWLEDGE, RELIGION AND HONESTY ("وَفِيهَا قَدِمَ الْقَاضِي تَقِيُّ الدِّينِ عَلِيُّ بْنُ عَبْدِ الْكَافِي السُّبْكِيُّ الشَّافِعِيُّ مِنَ الدِّيَارِ الْمِصْرِيَّةِ حَاكِمًا عَلَى دِمَشْقَ وَأَعْمَالِهَا، وَفَرِحَ النَّاسُ بِهِ، وَدَخَلَ النَّاسُ يُسَلِّمُونَ عَلَيْهِ لِعِلْمِهِ وَدِيَانَتِهِ وَأَمَانَتِهِ").

                    Is anything more needed to be said?!

                    Conclusion: Those who were against the abnormal positions of Ibn Taymiyya were from among the best of Muslims: Their heroes and their leading scholars!
                    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 05-10-20, 02:41 PM.


                    • #85
                      As for the "logic" that the opponent uses in order to REJECT a ruling from the Shari`a:

                      - In his ignorance he doesn't even know that the first type of Tawassul is asking Allah ta'ala by him (the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) or by his rank or his blessings, which doesn't even involve asking for his supplication!
                      And even the second type of Tawassul - which does involve asking for his supplication - is based upon the first, because all Tawassul with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is in reality based upon asking Allah ta'ala by the high rank and status of His Messenger, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam. So rejecting the issue of Tawassul is an indirect rejection of his high rank and status after his passing away, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam!
                      - The "logic" used by the opponent is that of the innovators and heretics! Using the same type of reasoning can be taken to reject a lot of Shar'i rulings by claiming "it's specific to his time"!
                      - It's established that the Sahabi 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - used to teach Tawassul AFTER the Prophet - sallalahu 'alayhi wa sallam - had passed away and that the early Muslims would use this supplication found in Hadith of the blind man as is clear from the words of Imam Ibn Abi Dunya (D. 281 AH) and that this kept on generation after generation for the first 700 Hijri years until Ibn Taymiyya denied what he denied and was imprisoned for it!
                      - Add to all of this: What will we do with the 64th Aya of Surat al-Nisa`? What do we do with the FACT that the Arabic language makes it necessary for this Aya to be understood as GENERAL? Reject the Arabic language?! Allahul musta'an!

                      This thread is named as "Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars", so only the statements of classical scholars are to be stated here and taken into consideration! Where are the scholars before Ibn Taymiyya, who disallowed Tawassul? Where are they, if the opponents are truthful?! WHERE?! Is finding 5 scholars that difficult?!


                      • #86
                        Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                        Thread should be 'Seeking intercession with rasoolullah according to rasoolullah '

                        I'm trying to refer back to Allah and his messenger but this clown keeps quoting random people.

                        It's obvious where his priorities lie!


                        • #87
                          The statement of Allah ta'ala and His Messenger - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - was mentioned, but the troll claimed in opposition to the language of the Arabs (!) that these texts are "specific to his time"!
                          So he's trying to refer this issue back to his unqualified OPINIONS and turn himself into the judge between right and wrong and this makes him a mini-Taghut!

                          The "random people" are the accepted scholars of Islam, who transmitted to us this religion and whom the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - called as the Inheritors of the Prophets!

                          Why is it that he can't bring us anyone before Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya supporting his position? If finding 5 quotes before him - or even one! - is so difficult to find, then what does that tell us?


                          • #88
                            This guy has no shame. I mention Allah and his messenger and he's still banging on about random people thinking I will take his philosophical ramblings over Qur'an and Sunnah.


                            • #89
                              Didn't know we have a Mujtahid Mutlaq (or Mujtahid fil Madhhab) and expert linguist on this forum such that he's able to deduce rulings DIRECTLY from the Qur`an and the Sunna without referring to the Mujtahid scholars and has also some sort of "right" to re-define the Arabic language and when something is understood to be specific and when general.

                              The problem now is that even expert linguists have no right to change the Arabic language, so where did he take this right?
                              What are his qualifications in order for him to give legal verdicts?!

                              I'll leave it at that and return to the actual topic insha`Allah, because there is no point in discussing with this arrogant troll.


                              • #90
                                The philosopher invokes technicalities and semantics on simple matters. A sign of a corrupt politician.



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