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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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  • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

    so let me ask when you say tawassul brother can i ask something to help me better understand in sha Allah

    so do you mean dua something like the following,
    'ohhh Allah im the ummah of your beloved so for the sake of your nabi sallahu alayhi wa salaam please help me'
    or
    'ohhh Muhammad rasoolullah sallahu alayhi help me with the power of Allah swt'???
    I intend your first example when saying Tawassul is allowed (and it falls under the first type of Tawassul).

    Your second example is Istighatha.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

      Imam Ibn Taymiyya had his own Ijtihad and in his thinking these type of issues (i.e. Tawassul and Tashaffu') could lead to polytheism (even if only minor), so he tried to take whatever way possible to disallow it and this included putting into doubt some reports, which had been authenticated before and after him.
      ​​​​​
      As for Istighatha, then I've stated more than once that the one disallowing it for the laymen has defintely a point (I even stated this regarding Imam Ibn Taymiyya) and I did not state that it's recommended.
      ​​​​​​But I do not criticize any of the classical scholars who performed Istighatha themselves (like Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH) for example), nor do I believe them to be guilty of "polytheism" as the mindless Najdis wanted us to believe!
      interesting food for thought, you see brother Abu Sulayman you do get me thinking with some of your posts, thanks jazakAllah khayran

      are you a student of knowledge Abu Sulayman

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

        I see so asking someone to make Dua is contingent upon knowing whether the other person will accept your request or not??

        Why are you inventing these new requirments?I Neither are they based on Qur'an nor the Sunnah. Where do you get these from?? I ask people, generally on the forum to make Dua for me all the time. I do not know or require to know whether they will accept the request and do it. Nor would I tell a person, many times, if they made a request for me. It is not a requirement for asking someone to make dua to know if they have done that.
        You asked what the difference was and I told you.

        If you see no difference between asking someone in the dunya who can respond you normally, and asking someone who has passed away, who can apparently reply to you in a dream, then you have some serious cognitive issues.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

          What did the Imam say about tawassul?
          He doesn't answer this...

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

            You asked what the difference was and I told you.

            If you see no difference between asking someone in the dunya who can respond you normally, and asking someone who has passed away, who can apparently reply to you in a dream, then you have some serious cognitive issues.
            There is no difference and you have still failed to show any - the one in Alim al-Barzakh can make Dua to Allah for you as can the one in Alim ad-Dunya. When I answered you point, showing you have innovated a new principle ("a requirement of Tawassul is for someone else to respond") and even showing you that in the Sunnah of Allah those who tasted death did reply to the living, you continued acting as if there is some difference that means one is valid and the other isn't.

            Is this the situation of the Muslims that we have to defend basic beliefs regarding the Ghayb? I hope and assume not.

            Instead brother you have shown to me that you doubt in the Qudrah of Allah as you said, "can apparently" in the above. Allah is omnipotent and things only happen or don't happen by his decree - if you doubt that and have issue with that then you have deficiency in Iman. Allah can even make you directly hear the dead, as He made some hear according to the Ulama.

            He alone makes the living and the dead hear. Neither the dead nor the living can make themselves hear, only Allah can make anything hear.

            So, I will repeat it again:

            There is no difference between someone who has tasted death making Dua to Allah on behalf of someone else vs someone who is still in the Hayat ad-Dunya doing this.

            Joke and appeal to naturalism as much as you want dear brother, it does not change the above.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

              There is no difference and you have still failed to show any - the one in Alim al-Barzakh can make Dua to Allah for you as can the one in Alim ad-Dunya. When I answered you point, showing you have innovated a new principle ("a requirement of Tawassul is for someone else to respond") and even showing you that in the Sunnah of Allah those who tasted death did reply to the living, you continued acting as if there is some difference that means one is valid and the other isn't.

              Is this the situation of the Muslims that we have to defend basic beliefs regarding the Ghayb? I hope and assume not.

              Instead brother you have shown to me that you doubt in the Qudrah of Allah as you said, "can apparently" in the above. Allah is omnipotent and things only happen or don't happen by his decree - if you doubt that and have issue with that then you have deficiency in Iman. Allah can even make you directly hear the dead, as He made some hear according to the Ulama.

              He alone makes the living and the dead hear. Neither the dead nor the living can make themselves hear, only Allah can make anything hear.

              So, I will repeat it again:

              There is no difference between someone who has tasted death making Dua to Allah on behalf of someone else vs someone who is still in the Hayat ad-Dunya doing this.

              Joke and appeal to naturalism as much as you want dear brother, it does not change the above.
              You see two random living people having an exchange the same as a random living person calling on a random dead person who then responds via a dream... as the same.

              The only joke here is you.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                You see two random living people having an exchange the same as a random living person calling on a random dead person who then responds via a dream... as the same.

                The only joke here is you.
                Our Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam is not a random dead person.

                The joke is on the one who does not believe in the unseen as he believes in the seen.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                  Our Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam is not a random dead person.

                  The joke is on the one who does not believe in the unseen as he believes in the seen.
                  Hi moron,

                  You said it applies to any random person that has passed away.
                  Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
                  ... those who have tasted death, like the best of creation, Nabi Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam, can communicate with you that the requested dua has been made of Allah Azza Wa Jal...

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                    Hi moron,

                    You said it applies to any random person that has passed away.

                    Except you used the exact example of a person who responds via a dream, referring to the Hadith of the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam that I quoted you.

                    Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                    You see two random living people having an exchange the same as a random living person calling on a random dead person who then responds via a dream... as the same.

                    The only joke here is you.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                      Except you used the exact example of a person who responds via a dream, referring to the Hadith of the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam that I quoted you.


                      Hello again moron,

                      You said anyone can communicate after death by sending a message in dream like the messenger of Allah and used that narration as proof. Your attempts at deception have flopped.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                        Hello again moron,

                        You said anyone can communicate after death by sending a message in dream like the messenger of Allah and used that narration as proof. Your attempts at deception have flopped.
                        (red highlighting is mine)

                        You've dug yourself into a hole and now you're misquoting what I said.

                        Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
                        To add to this point - those who have tasted death, like the best of creation, Nabi Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam,can communicate with you that the requested dua has been made of Allah Azza Wa Jal.
                        I then quoted the Hadith of the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam. Never did I explicitly say that those who have tasted death can communicate to you through a dream. That was your own assumption - the Hadith proves that in general, in the Sunnah of Allah those who have tasted death have communicated to the Ummah that the dua has been made. But the specific that this is through a dream I never stated for other than RasulAllah - in fact I didn't even explicitly state it myself for him Alayhis Salam - I just brought a Hadith evidencing that.

                        And why would I? Because it is only guaranteed we can see the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam in our dreams and know it is him, that is Allah's determination. There are other means for other people in His Sunnah, including hearing the dead directly as mentioned by the likes of Imam as-Suyuti. Again I mentioned before all of this that hearing the response is not a requirement for Tawassul, that you are innovating a requirement, not from the Qur'an and Sunnah, but from your own Nafs.

                        So not only did you insult the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam, you refused to recognise your mistake, innovated new principles in front of me, misquoted me and now you continue this back-and-forth to satisfy your nafs.
                        Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 08-04-21, 10:32 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                          a random dead person who then responds via a dream... as the same.
                          This is clearly in reference to the Hadith. I don't think you intended RasulAllah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam alone, but your statement included him, and the Hadith was in your mind as you typed that.

                          You've had many opportunities to say something like, "If I insulted the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa-Salam then I take that back" etc. but you didn't, and I feel you won't even now.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                            (red highlighting is mine)

                            You've dug yourself into a hole and now you're misquoting what I said.



                            I then quoted the Hadith of the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam. Never did I explicitly say that those who have tasted death can communicate to you through a dream. That was your own assumption - the Hadith proves that in general, in the Sunnah of Allah those who have tasted death have communicated to the Ummah that the dua has been made. But the specific that this is through a dream I never stated for other than RasulAllah - in fact I didn't even explicitly state it myself for him Alayhis Salam - I just brought a Hadith evidencing that.

                            And why would I? Because it is only guaranteed we can see the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam in our dreams and know it is him, that is Allah's determination. There are other means for other people in His Sunnah, including hearing the dead directly as mentioned by the likes of Imam as-Suyuti. Again I mentioned before all of this that hearing the response is not a requirement for Tawassul, that you are innovating a requirement, not from the Qur'an and Sunnah, but from your own Nafs.

                            So not only did you insult the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam, you refused to recognise your mistake, innovated new principles in front of me, misquoted me and now you continue this back-and-forth to satisfy your nafs.
                            Hey moron,

                            You said they can communicate and offered the narration as proof. You only stated one type of communication - dreams. You didn't say that random people communicate differently. You even used the term 'like' so there is no ambiguity. We were talking about the difference dunya and barzakh (in general) and you said both are the same in the context of asking someone to make dua. Then you posted the narration.

                            Again, your deceptive ways won't win you any points here. You've been caught out.

                            ...the Hadith proves that in general, in the Sunnah of Allah those who have tasted death have communicated to the Ummah that the dua has been made...
                            The wording posted isn't general at all. Here you are doing it again. You say the narration you posted where a man went to the grave of rasoolullaah , called on rasoolullah and then subsequently received instructions in a dream (seems the dua request wasn't accepted lol) - is general. Meaning it applies to random people too.

                            On getting a response for a request then it's simple: Bring a narration where the intercessor agreed to intercede but without a response.

                            Speak later, moron.

                            Comment


                            • السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
                              I was trying to find the table contents, on which page is the most current one?

                              As well as: I saw something interesting from Shaykh Muhammad Abdul-Wahid where he was saying that Ibn Abdul-Wahhab didn't make Takfir on those performing Tawassul. I don't remember how this thread went, but if it was said that the Najdi Da'wah did, can I perhaps see any references where this is taken from?

                              As for Shafa'ah then I have a question. In ad-Durar it's said that they make Takfir on the one saying يا رسول الله أسألك من الشفاعة. I was wondering how this wording is different from the narration of 'Utbi or if it's practically the same?

                              جزاكم الله خيرا

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by BintFulaan View Post
                                السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
                                I was trying to find the table contents, on which page is the most current one?

                                As well as: I saw something interesting from Shaykh Muhammad Abdul-Wahid where he was saying that Ibn Abdul-Wahhab didn't make Takfir on those performing Tawassul. I don't remember how this thread went, but if it was said that the Najdi Da'wah did, can I perhaps see any references where this is taken from?

                                As for Shafa'ah then I have a question. In ad-Durar it's said that they make Takfir on the one saying يا رسول الله أسألك من الشفاعة. I was wondering how this wording is different from the narration of 'Utbi or if it's practically the same?

                                جزاكم الله خيرا

                                ​​​​​​Wa 'alaykum al-salam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,

                                I'll post an up-to-date table of contents in the next post insha`Allah.

                                It's correct that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) stated that he regarded the permissibility of Tawassul as an acceptable difference of opinion, but he intended here only wordings like "O my Lord, forgive me for the sake of your Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam)" or what is similar to it (which is the first type of Tawassul according to Imam al-Subki (d. 756 AH)).
                                But there are other wordings like the statement "O Messenger of Allah, pray for me" (which falls under the second type of Tawassul according to Imam al-Subki) or "O Messenger of Allah, your Umma needs help" (which falls under the third type of Tawassul according to Imam al-Subki and the intention is the same as the second and that is the asking for supplication) - which also fall under Tawassul according to classical scholars - and MiAW regarded these things as "Shirk" and not subject to difference of opinion.

                                As for what is mentioned in al-Durar al-Saniyya, then it is the statement of 'Abdullah (d. 1244 AH), the son of MiAW and one of the major heads of these Najdis, where he allows the blood of the one who believes in the correctness of the statement "O Messenger of Allah, I ask you for [your] intercession" to be spilled (!!!) and he makes it very clear that this issue is the most important reason for killing other Muslims and this while acknowledging that this was allowed by the scholars of the past.
                                So he admits that their major reason for spilling Muslim blood was an issue allowed by major scholars of this Umma! Just imagine the boldness in doing so!

                                ​​​​​​Here some examples of wordings recommended by major scholars:
                                ​​
                                - Imam al-Mawsili (d. 683 AH) for example mentioned in Ta'lil al-Mukhtar that one should say "Intercession, intercession, o Messenger of Allah" and before that he stated "so intercede for us to your Lord"!
                                - Imam Ibn al-Humam (d. 861 AH) said in Fath al-Qadir that one should say "O Messenger of Allah, I ask you for intercession"!
                                - Imam al-Samhudi (d. 911 AH) stated in Khulasat al-Wafa that one should say "So intercede for me, o Messenger of the Lord of the worlds"!
                                - etc.

                                According to that 'Abdullah these scholars were "excused" (for recommending what he regards as major polytheism!), because the call of IAW had not reached them unlike the scholars and people of their own time (whose blood he regards as lawful and he's very clear on this!).
                                What he does not seem to get is that this implies his own disbelief, because he doesn't regard the call of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) - which had reached all these scholars without any doubt! - as enough for the establishment of proof, but rather the call of IAW!

                                As for the wording found in the Athar of al-'Utbi (and the classical scholars regarded the wording as good and correct to use during the visitation), then it's the wording "So I've come to you, asking for forgiveness for my sin and seeking intercession through you unto my Lord" and this is identical in meaning to the above wordings mentioned.



                                One last point: I'm personally sick of hearing what so and so or so and so claimed after 1000 years of the Hijra to be "Shirk akbar for which one's blood needs to be spilled".
                                I'm sick of those acting as if anyone has the right to treat the Umma of the Best of Creation (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) in this manner and to put the faith of the majority of the Muslims before us into question! Subhanallah, did the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) give anyone the authority to treat HIS Umma in this manner or did he rather warn against this!?

                                ​​​​​​
                                ​​​​​
                                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 30-04-21, 09:11 PM.

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