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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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  • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

    so why do you have a right to get angry for when someone is seeking knowledge?

    why are some muslims so hell bent on gettimg everyone to agree with them and being so forceful about their ways?
    i mean even pious salaf hus saliheen have had difference but been respectable with each other

    anyways make me understand why there is no difference between those who are alive in the dunya and those in barakah, i would prefer the references of the four imams please

    how have i invented a dispute when big ulama have disagreed on the matter, so who am i, whos a nobody?
    Yet again you ignored what I said.

    Summarise for me what I said to you. I told you I AGREE WITH YOU. You're so hell-bent in proving yourself correct and inventing an arguement where there is none that you continually miss this point. If you are arguing that Ulama disagreed over this issue - of the fiqhi permissibility of Tawassul - then I am not here to argue that with you. My brother I AGREE with you. What and why are you arguing with me? Are you arguing with me for the sake of argument?? I couldn't care less. Stop arguing with me.

    I only care about those who think Tawassul is an Issue of Aqeedah or an Innovation. You are inventing a dispute with me because if you actually have understanding of what I say to you, you would realise that the issue you are arguing over is a non-Issue to me - clearly at this point you are saying it is a Fiqhi Ikhtilaf - and that was my point above!

    Stop arguing with me if that is the case.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

      i actuslly read it, now youre making assumptions as to what i did or not, do you know exactly what i did when i saw your post?

      thats where youre getting the wrong end of the stick, throughout this thread ive been asking questions, i always ask questions whether bout deen or dunya,
      my point is that im not arguing, its you who is getting defensive because someone is asking questions

      my simple question is this which still hasnt been answered, why cant you just recite durood sharrif then make dua followed by durood sharrif again?

      help me understand brother, are you saying making dua tawassul has more of a chance of getting answered then reciting durood sharrif before and after dua?

      is sending peace and salutations to our nabi sallahu alayhi wa salaam going to be inferior to asking an awliyah to help make your dua accepted?
      You clearly didn't read it or you would have said, "Ok we are in agreement then" or something. Instead you're arguing with someone you're too angry to figure out doesn't has an issue with you in the first place.


      As for your question, this act of Tawassul, even of the dead, is found in Ahadith. It is judged as recommended by the majority of the Ulama. Yes if you want to you can just recite Durood Sharrif - no one is forcing you to do something that is permissible or even recommended. It is not Fard. It is not Wajib. No one is claiming that.

      "It is recommended for the Son to make Dua for the father"

      "Oh but can't the Father just pray Nawafil instead?" Yes, no one is forcing you to do one good action over another.


      As for your dua being more likely to be accepted then yes. But there have been Ulama who caution against doing this all the time - you should also make Dua to Allah yourself. But asking those closer to Allah Azza Wa Jal is certainly a way to strengthen having your Dua answered.

      As for your last question, the two issues are unrelated. You can do both. They are also not comparable - you don't send Salawat (generally) with the specific intention of getting a request answered. I would say that sending Salawat is superior - you made the situation obvious though - you're comparing Salawat on the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam with asking Awliyah for Dua. Anyway, it is not an either or situation in the first place. Do both.
      Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 07-04-21, 08:52 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

        The difference is that the one you ask in the dunya can tell you whether your request is accepted or rejected.

        How do you know if the ones in barzakh have accepted your request?
        I see so asking someone to make Dua is contingent upon knowing whether the other person will accept your request or not??

        Why are you inventing these new requirments?I Neither are they based on Qur'an nor the Sunnah. Where do you get these from?? I ask people, generally on the forum to make Dua for me all the time. I do not know or require to know whether they will accept the request and do it. Nor would I tell a person, many times, if they made a request for me. It is not a requirement for asking someone to make dua to know if they have done that.
        Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 07-04-21, 08:50 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          In the next post I would like to correct some misunderstanding regarding the first type of Tawassul and its difference with Tashaffu' / second type of Tawassul.
          - The first type of Tawassul - which is usually the first thing intended when saying Tawassul - is to supplicate to Allah ta'ala and to ask Him by his noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) or his high rank and status or what us similar to this.

          In this type of Tawassul one is not even asking the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to supplicate, but rather taking his blessed being / person as a means to one's Lord.
          This is similar to attaining blessing from Allah ta'ala by touching al-Hajar al-Aswad or drinking Zamzam water or touching Prophetic relics and so on.

          Note that Imam Ibn Taymiyya disallowed this type of Tawassul during his (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) lifetime and after it and this based upon a rather strange reasoning.
          (It seems however that he retracted from this during the discussion with other scholars.)


          - The second type of Tawassul is to ask our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to supplicate to Allah ta'ala and this is the same as asking for intercession.
          This is usually done during the visitation.

          Imam Ibn Taymiyya regarded this as allowed during his lifetime and disallowed after it.
          (In the very same discussion he retracted from this one also.)


          Note that both types of Tawassul are based upon the high rank and status of our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), but in the first type one is not asking him (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) for supplication, while in the second one is asking for supplication.

          Since one is not asking for supplication in the first type, any differentiation between his lifetime and after it is invalid! His rank and his status with his Lord jalla jalaluhu remains forever and ever!

          As for making this differentiation for the second type, then he (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is more alive than every single one of us!
          Allah ta'ala has called him (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) a witness upon us in His book, and it's reported that he's informed of our state and our deeds and that he prays for us! His miracles do not stop with his death and go on and on! So may the peace and blessings be upon the Master of the first and the last.

          And let no one try to take away from him giving aid to his Umma by praying for them or being a mean in the fulfillment of their needs and let no one try to disconnect his Umma from him and do not mention him except with the best of manners and by sending peace and blessings upon him! Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 07-04-21, 08:50 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
            Simply

            cant you see he is ducking your question and talking circles all around it

            asking ANYONE to make dua for you is not the same as asking some dead person or in the name of some dead person to intercede for you
            Tawassul/seeking Shifa' of the dead is to ask them to make Dua for you to Allah.

            I didn't duck the question at all, I answered it directly, and as explicitly as possible and I will repeat what I said.

            As for your first question, I answered this before and another time before that. No. There's no difference.

            Allah is capable of all things. If you think there is some difference, please highlight and explain to me clearly what it is. Whether in Alim ad-Dunya or Alim al-Barzakh, they can make Dua for you and they can hear you, insha'Allah.
            There is no difference in asking the one in Alim al-Barzakh vs Alim ad-Dunya. Allah can make both hear and Allah can make both not hear. He can make both make dua or not as He so wills.

            If you are affected by materialist/naturalist philosophy such that you do not believe in Hayat al-Barzakhiyyah or that Allah can do all things including those things the western, atheist scientists assumes cannot happen, then that is your issue not mine.
            Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 07-04-21, 08:49 PM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
              Simply
              or in the name of some dead person to intercede for you
              What do you mean by asking in the name of some dead person?

              Edit: I think understand what you mean. I assume you mean saying, "O Allah by the virtue/for the sake of X please accept my Dua", again this comes under Tawassul. You can even make Tawassul of your own deeds as well.

              Imam Al-Azam however did not like the wording, "Bi-Haqqi", by the right of, as he argued none has rights over Allah.
              Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 07-04-21, 08:45 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post

                asking ANYONE to make dua for you is not the same as asking some dead person or in the name of some dead person to intercede for you
                Please be careful with your words!

                In this thread we're speaking specifically speaking about Tawassul and Tashaffu' with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and not about "some dead person"!

                ​​​​​​What really bothers me is that you people think it's right to attain blessings from Allah ta'ala by drinking Zamzam water or touching al-Hajar al-Aswad from one side (which is correct), but from the other side you suddenly believe that the blessed person / self of our noble Prophet is not a means to attain blessings from our Lord jalla jalaluhu!
                Why this differentiation? What kind of logic is this?

                ​​​​​​

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                  The difference is that the one you ask in the dunya can tell you whether your request is accepted or rejected.

                  How do you know if the ones in barzakh have accepted your request?
                  I said before:

                  I see so asking someone to make Dua is contingent upon knowing whether the other person will accept your request or not??

                  Why are you inventing these new requirements?I Neither are they based on Qur'an nor the Sunnah. Where do you get these from?? I ask people, generally on the forum to make Dua for me all the time. I do not know or require to know whether they will accept the request and do it. Nor would I tell a person, many times, if they made a request for me. It is not a requirement for asking someone to make dua to know if they have done that.
                  To add to this point - those who have tasted death, like the best of creation, Nabi Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam, can communicate with you that the requested dua has been made of Allah Azza Wa Jal.

                  Sayyiduna Malik al-Dar, the treasurer of food during the time of Sayyiduna ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab (radiyallahu ‘anhu), reports that once the people had been experiencing a drought in the era of Sayyiduna ‘Umar (radiyallahu ‘anhu), a man went to the grave of Rasulullah (sallallahu ‘alayhi wasallam) and said,

                  ‘O Rasulullah, ask for rain on behalf of your ummah, for verily, they are being destroyed.’

                  Thereafter this person was instructed in a dream to go to Sayyiduna ‘Umar (radiyallahu ‘anhu) and tell him that, ‘the rains will soon come and say to him, Be intelligent’, When ‘Umar (radiyallahu ‘anhu) was informed of this, he began to cry and he said, ‘O My Lord, I will only leave out what I am unable to do.’

                  - Musannaf Ibn Abi Shaybah 12/31-2, Good and strong acc. to Imam Ibn Kathir, Musnad al-Faruq 1/223.

                  Translation from here.
                  As for the exact how they know - the same way you know anything - Allah has conveyed that to them/made them hear of your request etc. In the case of the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam I believe this specifically occurs via the angels, but Allahu Alam it is a matter of the Ghayb.

                  So I maintain my point, there is no difference.
                  Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 07-04-21, 09:04 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                    - Not every difference of opinion is taken into consideration.

                    The issue of Tawassul with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) in one's supplication to Allah ta'ala was regarded as correct and allowed for the first 700 years of Hijra.

                    Then Imam Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) came and made a huge issue of it and tried to disallow it, but the scholars of his very own time did not accept this position from him and there is actually an incident reported by his own leading students where he discussed this issue with other scholars and returned to truth on Tawassul (and Tashaffu' also) and stated that it's allowed and only regarded Istighatha as forbidden.

                    After Imam Ibn Taymiyya the scholars continued to allow it.

                    For the first 1000 years of Hijra the number of major scholars disallowing Tawassul with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) could be counted with one hand! So what kind of difference of opinion is this?

                    Only after the appearance of the Najdis and thereafter the "Salafis" and their petrodollars the position of disallowing Tawassul spread among the people until it reached the state today where a lot of people falsely believe that Tawassul somehow "goes against Tawhid".
                    Suddenly some people think that describing Allah ta'ala with human attributes is "Tawhid", but Tawassul is "against Tawhid and near to Shirk".
                    Now this is an ugly innovation and an attempt to change the religion and mix up Tawhid and Shirk until the people don't know its difference anymor.



                    - There is no doubt on this issue other than the Shubuhat that the Najdis and their ilk have put into the minds of some people.
                    So no leaving a permissible means to one's Lord is not "being on the safe side".


                    Yes, if someone says that laymen should not perform Istighatha, then he definitely has a point.



                    - Regarding the position of the 4 Imams regarding this issue: I'm sure you're not intending this with your question brother, but it makes it seem as if you think that the 4 Madhahib are only the opinions of the 4 Imams, while the reality is that there are literally hundreds of major scholars under each Madhhab.

                    I am specifically mentioning this because these salafless "Salafis" have put this type of thinking into the mind of a lot of people.

                    But I will answer your question anyways:
                    Imam Abu Hanifa (d. 150 AH) did only have a problem with using the wording "by the right of so and so upon you", but had no problem with Tawassul itself.
                    ​​​​​​Imam Malik (d. 179 AH) famously stated in the incident reported by al-Qadhi 'Iyadh (d. 544 AH) in his masterpiece al-Shifa bi Ta'rif Huquq al-Mustafa from a number of his trustworthy teachers with an authentic chain that he stated in the context of the visitation and whether to face the Qibla or the blessed grave "How could you turn your face away from him when he is the means (wasila) of your and your father Adam's forgiveness to Allah on the Day of Resurrection? Nay, FACE HIM AND ASK FOR HIS INTERCESSION (ISTASHFI` BIHI) so that Allah will grant it to you as He said: "If they had only, when they were wronging themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft- returning, Most Merciful (4:64)."".
                    As for Imam al-Shafi'i (d. 204 AH), then Imam al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (d. 463 AH) mentioned in Tarikh Baghdad his Tawassul / Tabarruk with Imam Abu Hanifa and others mentioned it under the Manaqib of Imam Abu Hanifa.
                    As for Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH), then Imam al-Marrudhi (d. 275 AH) (his direct student!) mentioned in his Mansak that he regarded Tawassul with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) in one's supplication as correct and this is what later Hanabila also mentioned as the Madhhab itself. Even Imam ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) admitted that this was indeed the position of Imam Ahmad.

                    And as for relied upon position of all 4 Madhahib, then they all allow it as is known.



                    - As for your last question whether it's always done in supplication: There is no such obligation.


                    In the next post I would like to correct some misunderstanding regarding the first type of Tawassul and its difference with Tashaffu' / second type of Tawassul.
                    so my question is why did ibn taymiyyah differ and disagree with this?

                    yes i am well aware that theres many different scholars under each madahib brother

                    if youre saying laymen shouldnt perform istighata, why do you do it then? if youre a student of knowledge then i apologise but you started this thread and throughout the thread you say its recommended to do so (correct me if im wrong)

                    i can understand why youd say laymen should shouldnt perform istighata thoguh as i can appreciate some people could fall into shirk if the intention is not clear and they end up believing tht so and so actually helped them instead of Allah swt

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                      Yet again you ignored what I said.

                      Summarise for me what I said to you. I told you I AGREE WITH YOU. You're so hell-bent in proving yourself correct and inventing an arguement where there is none that you continually miss this point. If you are arguing that Ulama disagreed over this issue - of the fiqhi permissibility of Tawassul - then I am not here to argue that with you. My brother I AGREE with you. What and why are you arguing with me? Are you arguing with me for the sake of argument?? I couldn't care less. Stop arguing with me.

                      I only care about those who think Tawassul is an Issue of Aqeedah or an Innovation. You are inventing a dispute with me because if you actually have understanding of what I say to you, you would realise that the issue you are arguing over is a non-Issue to me - clearly at this point you are saying it is a Fiqhi Ikhtilaf - and that was my point above!

                      Stop arguing with me if that is the case.
                      By Allah im not arguing im just asking questions

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                        You clearly didn't read it or you would have said, "Ok we are in agreement then" or something. Instead you're arguing with someone you're too angry to figure out doesn't has an issue with you in the first place.


                        As for your question, this act of Tawassul, even of the dead, is found in Ahadith. It is judged as recommended by the majority of the Ulama. Yes if you want to you can just recite Durood Sharrif - no one is forcing you to do something that is permissible or even recommended. It is not Fard. It is not Wajib. No one is claiming that.

                        "It is recommended for the Son to make Dua for the father"

                        "Oh but can't the Father just pray Nawafil instead?" Yes, no one is forcing you to do one good action over another.


                        As for your dua being more likely to be accepted then yes. But there have been Ulama who caution against doing this all the time - you should also make Dua to Allah yourself. But asking those closer to Allah Azza Wa Jal is certainly a way to strengthen having your Dua answered.

                        As for your last question, the two issues are unrelated. You can do both. They are also not comparable - you don't send Salawat (generally) with the specific intention of getting a request answered. I would say that sending Salawat is superior - you made the situation obvious though - you're comparing Salawat on the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam with asking Awliyah for Dua. Anyway, it is not an either or situation in the first place. Do both.
                        im not angry at all Alhamdulillah lol

                        so let me ask as im curious why do ulema caution against doing this all the time?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                          - The first type of Tawassul - which is usually the first thing intended when saying Tawassul - is to supplicate to Allah ta'ala and to ask Him by his noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) or his high rank and status or what us similar to this.

                          In this type of Tawassul one is not even asking the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to supplicate, but rather taking his blessed being / person as a means to one's Lord.
                          This is similar to attaining blessing from Allah ta'ala by touching al-Hajar al-Aswad or drinking Zamzam water or touching Prophetic relics and so on.

                          Note that Imam Ibn Taymiyya disallowed this type of Tawassul during his (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) lifetime and after it and this based upon a rather strange reasoning.
                          (It seems however that he retracted from this during the discussion with other scholars.)


                          - The second type of Tawassul is to ask our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) to supplicate to Allah ta'ala and this is the same as asking for intercession.
                          This is usually done during the visitation.

                          Imam Ibn Taymiyya regarded this as allowed during his lifetime and disallowed after it.
                          (In the very same discussion he retracted from this one also.)


                          Note that both types of Tawassul are based upon the high rank and status of our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam), but in the first type one is not asking him (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) for supplication, while in the second one is asking for supplication.

                          Since one is not asking for supplication in the first type, any differentiation between his lifetime and after it is invalid! His rank and his status with his Lord jalla jalaluhu remains forever and ever!

                          As for making this differentiation for the second type, then he (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is more alive than every single one of us!
                          Allah ta'ala has called him (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) a witness upon us in His book, and it's reported that he's informed of our state and our deeds and that he prays for us! His miracles do not stop with his death and go on and on! So may the peace and blessings be upon the Master of the first and the last.

                          And let no one try to take away from him giving aid to his Umma by praying for them or being a mean in the fulfillment of their needs and let no one try to disconnect his Umma from him and do not mention him except with the best of manners and by sending peace and blessings upon him! Sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.
                          so let me ask when you say tawassul brother can i ask something to help me better understand in sha Allah

                          so do you mean dua something like the following,
                          'ohhh Allah im the ummah of your beloved so for the sake of your nabi sallahu alayhi wa salaam please help me'
                          or
                          'ohhh Muhammad rasoolullah sallahu alayhi help me with the power of Allah swt'???

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

                            so my question is why did ibn taymiyyah differ and disagree with this?

                            yes i am well aware that theres many different scholars under each madahib brother

                            if youre saying laymen shouldnt perform istighata, why do you do it then? if youre a student of knowledge then i apologise but you started this thread and throughout the thread you say its recommended to do so (correct me if im wrong)

                            i can understand why youd say laymen should shouldnt perform istighata thoguh as i can appreciate some people could fall into shirk if the intention is not clear and they end up believing tht so and so actually helped them instead of Allah swt
                            Imam Ibn Taymiyya had his own Ijtihad and in his thinking these type of issues (i.e. Tawassul and Tashaffu') could lead to polytheism (even if only minor), so he tried to take whatever way possible to disallow it and this included putting into doubt some reports, which had been authenticated before and after him.
                            ​​​​​
                            As for Istighatha, then I've stated more than once that the one disallowing it for the laymen has defintely a point (I even stated this regarding Imam Ibn Taymiyya) and I did not state that it's recommended.
                            ​​​​​​But I do not criticize any of the classical scholars who performed Istighatha themselves (like Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH) for example), nor do I believe them to be guilty of "polytheism" as the mindless Najdis wanted us to believe!
                            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 07-04-21, 09:25 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

                              im not angry at all Alhamdulillah lol

                              so let me ask as im curious why do ulema caution against doing this all the time?
                              (They caution against doing it and not asking Allah yourself all the time. I.e. to always make Tawassul and not to make dua yourself.)

                              Because you should ask yourself!

                              A man wishes to get a request fulfilled by a ruler. He wants his request fulfilled. So he goes and asks a court nobleman to beseech the ruler on his behalf. But should he always do this? For every little thing? He is his rulers subject - his ruler will in the end listen to his subjects - so he should ask himself too. Asking yourself is from the Sunnah as well! It is a very good thing as well! So why would you totally abandon this, which was done by our Nabi Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam and all Salaf and is not disagreed upon by anyone?

                              Rather to absolutely abandon making dua yourself is extremism and shows negligence to the Sunnah, so why shouldn't it be condemned?

                              And it is not mutually exclusive with asking someone to make Dua for you - you can do both! So why wouldn't you do both?

                              Personally, I only make Tawassul of Nabi Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam when the issue is important.

                              You would not petition the nobleman for every small issue.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

                                so let me ask when you say tawassul brother can i ask something to help me better understand in sha Allah

                                so do you mean dua something like the following,
                                'ohhh Allah im the ummah of your beloved so for the sake of your nabi sallahu alayhi wa salaam please help me'
                                or
                                'ohhh Muhammad rasoolullah sallahu alayhi help me with the power of Allah swt'???
                                First is Tawassul, second is Istigatha.

                                Comment

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