Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

[Simply_Logical]

Yea but there's a difference of opinion on tawassul as even shaykh asrar rashid says (not in so many words)

So wouldn't it be better on an in issue which isn't crystal clear to take the safe path?

As in if in doubt about anything, best to avoid it wouldnt you agree?

Can you please tell me what all four imams say on this topic tawassul with references?

Also would tawassul always be done when making dua?

Could you make Dua for me?

Yes of course I'm alive in the dunya I'm not in the barzakh

You can differentiate the difference between the dunya and the barzakh can't you?

Not saying prophets and awliyah/pious people can't worship in barzakh before you say that dear brother

[Muhammad Hasan]

Yes of course I'm alive in the dunya I'm not in the barzakh

You can differentiate the difference between the dunya and the barzakh can't you?

Not saying prophets and awliyah/pious people can't worship in barzakh before you say that dear brother

But that is Tawassul, and your argument against Tawassul was "why don't we make dua directly to Allah?" and you were asking what the point of it is. I made you an "intermediary" in the above request - why didn't you object that I am not going directly to Allah? This is what you've said in the past, as if asking others to make dua is some issue of Aqeedah or something. In fact such a hypothetical objection would go against ahadith even, where we pray for our parents, our parents pray for us.

And Allah says in the Qur'an:

And We did not send any messenger except to be obeyed by permission of Allah. And if, when they wronged themselves, they had come to you, [O Muhammad], and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Accepting of repentance and Merciful.

(Sahih International's Interpretation of al-Qur'an, Surah an-Nisa, Ayah 64)

Tawassul is established in the Qur'an and Hadith. It is simply asking someone to make Dua for you.


Your issue is specifically with asking a dead person to pray for you (Tawassul of the dead). I really struggle to understand what the issue is there - it is identical to asking a living person to pray for you. There are clear Hadith that allow it, showing the Salaf engaged in it and the Ulama of all four Madhahib have permitted it, and sometimes recommended it.

Do you believe that Allah is incapable of making the dead make dua for you? Clearly you don't.

Do you believe Allah is unable to make them hear your request? Again clearly you don't.

So what is the issue?


"But there is a difference of opinion that Tawassul is permitted"

Yes I agree, there is a fiqhi difference of opinion on this - the majority say it is permitted, even recommended, whilst a minority dissent and say it is prohibited.

But my issue with you is not that - first of all, if you really believe that, then this is an issue of Fiqh - not Aqeedah. It is not an issue related to Tawhid. In Tawassul, the act of worship is directed to Allah. There is no doubt permitted in this, it is not like Istigatha where it is problematic if you have the wrong intention - by the very nature of Tawassul the act of Ibadah is always directed to Allah - asking someone to make dua (worship) Allah on your behalf.

To my understanding you are a Muqallid in Fiqh. So why are you even having this conversation? Your not here to do you own Ijtihad here Simply_Logical and this is out of scope of what you can comment on as a layperson - it is an issue of Furu' not Aqeedah. So why are we even having this conversation then?

Because of this, I don't even argue on this topic when someone holds a reasonable view (whether they consider it permitted/recommended or prohibited based off of the fatwa they follow). I only debate these issues when people cross them over into issues of Aqeedah - arguing that Tawassul is somehow an issue of Tawhid. The reasoning you use for Tawassul, I use for Istigatha (although again I am following a fatwa of my local Ulama there).

So if you are following a minority view based off of the fatwa of your local Ulama of your Madhab, why are you even coming on here to discuss this? Or is it that your local Ulama give a fatwa you don't like? So you've become a Mujtahid in Fiqh now?? Be consistent and objective with the Sharia of Allah.

Regardless, I will just ask you one question: Do you think Tawassul of the Dead is an issue of Aqeedah and Tawhid?

If you say no, then we have no issues, and I won't be discussing it with you further as there is nothing to discuss from my point of view - I am not qualified nor capable of discussing some issue of Furu' with you. My issue is with the Innovators who make this is an issue of Tawhid and make Tabdi' and/or Takfir on these issues. You are free to not practice Tawassul of the dead, even on the fatwa of your local Ulama, as even on the fatwa of permissibility or recommendation does not mean you have to do something.

In summary I don't debate Furu', so if you also recognise it is an issue of Furu that the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah differ over, we have no issues.

[Muhammad Hasan]

From the beginning of the thread, OP said:

I opened this thread with the intention to post the statements of the classical scholars of Islam regarding the issue of making our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - a mean for oneself (Tawassul) and seeking his intercession unto His Lord (Tashaffu') and this because in our time this issue is being attacked and falsely regarded as "polytheism" even though it is clearly supported by shar'i texts.

I have underlined the crucial part. If you do not regard Tawassul as an innovation nor as disbelief, but instead view this as an area of Fiqhi Ikhtilaf between Sunni scholars where it is fine to hold any (fiqhi) verdict, then this thread is not addressing you, it is addressing those who do.

Brothers and sisters should not independently comment on issues of Furu'.

[Muhammad Hasan]

From the beginning of the thread, OP said:



I have underlined the crucial part. If you do not regard Tawassul as an innovation nor as disbelief, but instead view this as an area of Fiqhi Ikhtilaf between Sunni scholars where it is fine to hold any (fiqhi) verdict, then this thread is not addressing you, it is addressing those who do.

Brothers and sisters should not independently comment on issues of Furu'.

*Unless they are students of knowledge/have scholarly training.

[Simply_Logical]

But that is Tawassul, and your argument against Tawassul was "why don't we make dua directly to Allah?" and you were asking what the point of it is. I made you an "intermediary" in the above request - why didn't you object that I am not going directly to Allah? This is what you've said in the past, as if asking others to make dua is some issue of Aqeedah or something. In fact such a hypothetical objection would go against ahadith even, where we pray for our parents, our parents pray for us.

And Allah says in the Qur'an:




Tawassul is established in the Qur'an and Hadith. It is simply asking someone to make Dua for you.


Your issue is specifically with asking a dead person to pray for you (Tawassul of the dead). I really struggle to understand what the issue is there - it is identical to asking a living person to pray for you. There are clear Hadith that allow it, showing the Salaf engaged in it and the Ulama of all four Madhahib have permitted it, and sometimes recommended it.

Do you believe that Allah is incapable of making the dead make dua for you? Clearly you don't.

Do you believe Allah is unable to make them hear your request? Again clearly you don't.

So what is the issue?


"But there is a difference of opinion that Tawassul is permitted"

Yes I agree, there is a fiqhi difference of opinion on this - the majority say it is permitted, even recommended, whilst a minority dissent and say it is prohibited.

But my issue with you is not that - first of all, if you really believe that, then this is an issue of Fiqh - not Aqeedah. It is not an issue related to Tawhid. In Tawassul, the act of worship is directed to Allah. There is no doubt permitted in this, it is not like Istigatha where it is problematic if you have the wrong intention - by the very nature of Tawassul the act of Ibadah is always directed to Allah - asking someone to make dua (worship) Allah on your behalf.

To my understanding you are a Muqallid in Fiqh. So why are you even having this conversation? Your not here to do you own Ijtihad here Simply_Logical and this is out of scope of what you can comment on as a layperson - it is an issue of Furu' not Aqeedah. So why are we even having this conversation then?

Because of this, I don't even argue on this topic when someone holds a reasonable view (whether they consider it permitted/recommended or prohibited based off of the fatwa they follow). I only debate these issues when people cross them over into issues of Aqeedah - arguing that Tawassul is somehow an issue of Tawhid. The reasoning you use for Tawassul, I use for Istigatha (although again I am following a fatwa of my local Ulama there).

So if you are following a minority view based off of the fatwa of your local Ulama of your Madhab, why are you even coming on here to discuss this? Or is it that your local Ulama give a fatwa you don't like? So you've become a Mujtahid in Fiqh now?? Be consistent and objective with the Sharia of Allah.

Regardless, I will just ask you one question: Do you think Tawassul of the Dead is an issue of Aqeedah and Tawhid?

If you say no, then we have no issues, and I won't be discussing it with you further as there is nothing to discuss from my point of view - I am not qualified nor capable of discussing some issue of Furu' with you. My issue is with the Innovators who make this is an issue of Tawhid and make Tabdi' and/or Takfir on these issues. You are free to not practice Tawassul of the dead, even on the fatwa of your local Ulama, as even on the fatwa of permissibility or recommendation does not mean you have to do something.

In summary I don't debate Furu', so if you also recognise it is an issue of Furu that the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah differ over, we have no issues.

like i explained im in the dunya and not in barzakh, let me ask you is there a difference between dunya and barzakh?

look i posted already that prophets and awliyah can worship in barzakh

yea on one hand youre saying i should be having this conversation because im a layman but then you yourself, are you a student of knowledge or a layman like myself?
by the way isnt gaining knowledge obligatory for every muslim? why cant laymen ask genuine questions

i mean who are you to ask such a thing? are you an authority on the topic? come on have some humility brother

i just stated that this topic isnt crystal clear as in everyone agrees on with, even shaykh asrar rashid who is a scholar more learned then yourself and anyone on this thread has said so too, why is that so hard to accept and such a bitter pill to swallow?

youre contradicting yourself on one hand youre asking why im questioining and having these discussion then on the other hand youre saying 'youre not qualified nor capable of discussing' it
yet you yourself admit this so why are you even responding to my post? humble yourself brother

at least brother Abu Sulayman had the decency to respond with some respect and adab

[Muhammad Hasan]

like i explained im in the dunya and not in barzakh, let me ask you is there a difference between dunya and barzakh?

look i posted already that prophets and awliyah can worship in barzakh

yea on one hand youre saying i should be having this conversation because im a layman but then you yourself, are you a student of knowledge or a layman like myself?
by the way isnt gaining knowledge obligatory for every muslim? why cant laymen ask genuine questions

i mean who are you to ask such a thing? are you an authority on the topic? come on have some humility brother

I don't, everytime I reply to you, you mistake my questioning of you as somekind of interrogation. I apologise if you felt that I was attacking you, I was responding to your point, that is how I discuss things. That I question you etc. shouldn't be seen as an attack on you.

As for your first question, I answered this before and another time before that. No. There's no difference.

Allah is capable of all things. If you think there is some difference, please highlight and explain to me clearly what it is. Whether in Alim ad-Dunya or Alim al-Barzakh, they can make Dua for you and they can hear you, insha'Allah.

i just stated that this topic isnt crystal clear as in everyone agrees on with, even shaykh asrar rashid who is a scholar more learned then yourself and anyone on this thread has said so too, why is that so hard to accept and such a bitter pill to swallow?

youre contradicting yourself on one hand youre asking why im questioining and having these discussion then on the other hand youre saying 'youre not qualified nor capable of discussing' it
yet you yourself admit this so why are you even responding to my post? humble yourself brother

at least brother Abu Sulayman had the decency to respond with some respect and adab

Look I'll admit, what you have said here does make me angry brother, because you compeletely ignored what I said in my previous comment, and have invented a dispute where there is none.

Listen: WE HAVE NO ISSUE

(This time I was angry because you complete ignored or didn't read what I said previously.)

Read again what I said:

"But there is a difference of opinion that Tawassul is permitted"

Yes I agree, there is a fiqhi difference of opinion on this - the majority say it is permitted, even recommended, whilst a minority dissent and say it is prohibited.

But my issue with you is not that - first of all, if you really believe that, then this is an issue of Fiqh - not Aqeedah. It is not an issue related to Tawhid. In Tawassul, the act of worship is directed to Allah. There is no doubt permitted in this, it is not like Istigatha where it is problematic if you have the wrong intention - by the very nature of Tawassul the act of Ibadah is always directed to Allah - asking someone to make dua (worship) Allah on your behalf.

To my understanding you are a Muqallid in Fiqh. So why are you even having this conversation? Your not here to do you own Ijtihad here Simply_Logical and this is out of scope of what you can comment on as a layperson - it is an issue of Furu' not Aqeedah. So why are we even having this conversation then?

Because of this, I don't even argue on this topic when someone holds a reasonable view (whether they consider it permitted/recommended or prohibited based off of the fatwa they follow). I only debate these issues when people cross them over into issues of Aqeedah - arguing that Tawassul is somehow an issue of Tawhid. The reasoning you use for Tawassul, I use for Istigatha (although again I am following a fatwa of my local Ulama there).

So if you are following a minority view based off of the fatwa of your local Ulama of your Madhab, why are you even coming on here to discuss this? Or is it that your local Ulama give a fatwa you don't like? So you've become a Mujtahid in Fiqh now?? Be consistent and objective with the Sharia of Allah.

Regardless, I will just ask you one question: Do you think Tawassul of the Dead is an issue of Aqeedah and Tawhid?

If you say no, then we have no issues, and I won't be discussing it with you further as there is nothing to discuss from my point of view - I am not qualified nor capable of discussing some issue of Furu' with you. My issue is with the Innovators who make this is an issue of Tawhid and make Tabdi' and/or Takfir on these issues. You are free to not practice Tawassul of the dead, even on the fatwa of your local Ulama, as even on the fatwa of permissibility or recommendation does not mean you have to do something.

In summary I don't debate Furu', so if you also recognise it is an issue of Furu that the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah differ over, we have no issues.

Read the last line to yourself 10 times if you have to.

Now look at the reply you typed out.

[Muhammad Hasan]

Simply_Logical

Don't EVER skim through something someone has typed out, or you'll make this make this mistake and start arguing with them over something not even realising that they are agreeing with you.

You attacked me, interpeted my reply to you as an attack on yourself, twisted the point I made specifically to tell you I don't want to discuss this because it is an Issue of Furu so it should not be argued over and I am not qualified, and used this as somekind of cheap rhetorical point, "Huh? Well who are you to say I am a layperson, you're a layperson yourself" *facepalm* That's the point!!

All of this because you clearly skim read what I wrote. Look maybe you're a busy person, but if you're going to start an argument with someone you will want to at least ensure you have something to argue over in the first place! If you don't have the time to read what I write, then don't reply until you've read it all. And please STOP interpreting every point I write in reply to you or anyone as a personal attack, it isn't. I hightlight questions to make them easier to read. I highlight things for that purpose and to draw attention to important things I have written, not to show anger (except in the one case above where I said, "we have no issue", as explained).

In summary accept my apology dear brother and please read what I have written in the future carefully. If you are unsure what I mean or what point I am making, feel free to ask in the future.

[Simply_Logical]

I don't, everytime I reply to you, you mistake my questioning of you as somekind of interrogation. I apologise if you felt that I was attacking you, I was responding to your point, that is how I discuss things. That I question you etc. shouldn't be seen as an attack on you.

As for your first question, I answered this before and another time before that. No. There's no difference.

Allah is capable of all things. If you think there is some difference, please highlight and explain to me clearly what it is. Whether in Alim ad-Dunya or Alim al-Barzakh, they can make Dua for you and they can hear you, insha'Allah.




Look I'll admit, what you have said here does make me angry brother, because you compeletely ignored what I said in my previous comment, and have invented a dispute where there is none.

Listen: WE HAVE NO ISSUE

(This time I was angry because you complete ignored or didn't read what I said previously.)

Read again what I said:



Read the last line to yourself 10 times if you have to.

Now look at the reply you typed out.

so why do you have a right to get angry for when someone is seeking knowledge?

why are some muslims so hell bent on gettimg everyone to agree with them and being so forceful about their ways?
i mean even pious salaf hus saliheen have had difference but been respectable with each other

anyways make me understand why there is no difference between those who are alive in the dunya and those in barakah, i would prefer the references of the four imams please

how have i invented a dispute when big ulama have disagreed on the matter, so who am i, whos a nobody?

[Simply_Logical]

Simply_Logical

Don't EVER skim through something someone has typed out, or you'll make this make this mistake and start arguing with them over something not even realising that they are agreeing with you.

You attacked me, interpeted my reply to you as an attack on yourself, twisted the point I made specifically to tell you I don't want to discuss this because it is an Issue of Furu so it should not be argued over and I am not qualified, and used this as somekind of cheap rhetorical point, "Huh? Well who are you to say I am a layperson, you're a layperson yourself" *facepalm* That's the point!!

All of this because you clearly skim read what I wrote. Look maybe you're a busy person, but if you're going to start an argument with someone you will want to at least ensure you have something to argue over in the first place! If you don't have the time to read what I write, then don't reply until you've read it all. And please STOP interpreting every point I write in reply to you or anyone as a personal attack, it isn't. I hightlight questions to make them easier to read. I highlight things for that purpose and to draw attention to important things I have written, not to show anger (except in the one case above where I said, "we have no issue", as explained).

In summary accept my apology dear brother and please read what I have written in the future carefully. If you are unsure what I mean or what point I am making, feel free to ask in the future.

i actuslly read it, now youre making assumptions as to what i did or not, do you know exactly what i did when i saw your post?

thats where youre getting the wrong end of the stick, throughout this thread ive been asking questions, i always ask questions whether bout deen or dunya,
my point is that im not arguing, its you who is getting defensive because someone is asking questions

my simple question is this which still hasnt been answered, why cant you just recite durood sharrif then make dua followed by durood sharrif again?

help me understand brother, are you saying making dua tawassul has more of a chance of getting answered then reciting durood sharrif before and after dua?

is sending peace and salutations to our nabi sallahu alayhi wa salaam going to be inferior to asking an awliyah to help make your dua accepted?

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

...As for your first question, I answered this before and another time before that. No. There's no difference.

Allah is capable of all things. If you think there is some difference, please highlight and explain to me clearly what it is. Whether in Alim ad-Dunya or Alim al-Barzakh, they can make Dua for you and they can hear you, insha'Allah...

The difference is that the one you ask in the dunya can tell you whether your request is accepted or rejected.

How do you know if the ones in barzakh have accepted your request?

[AbuMubarak]

Simply

cant you see he is ducking your question and talking circles all around it

asking ANYONE to make dua for you is not the same as asking some dead person or in the name of some dead person to intercede for you

[Simply_Logical]

...As for your first question, I answered this before and another time before that. No. There's no difference.

Allah is capable of all things. If you think there is some difference, please highlight and explain to me clearly what it is. Whether in Alim ad-Dunya or Alim al-Barzakh, they can make Dua for you and they can hear you, insha'Allah...

The difference is that the one you ask in the dunya can tell you whether your request is accepted or rejected.

How do you know if the ones in barzakh have accepted your request?

That's true as well, I mean how do you determine whether the dua had been accepted through Allahs will alone or through the intercession of the prophet/awliyah?

[Simply_Logical]

Simply

cant you see he is ducking your question and talking circles all around it

asking ANYONE to make dua for you is not the same as asking some dead person or in the name of some dead person to intercede for you

Yes it's a simple question tbf

Also before khamr (alcohol) become a sin and sinful to consume, our nabi sallahu alayhi wa salaam would propagate tawheed and that was to strengthen the hearts of the sahabahs,
so my question is when did tawassul become permissible, was it from the start of wahy (revelation) or after? If after when exactly?

Also has tawassul been something that could be done from the time of Adam alayhi salaam?

So could all the previous ummatis call upon their prophets/awliyah?

[Abu Sulayman]

Yea but there's a difference of opinion on tawassul as even shaykh asrar rashid says (not in so many words)

So wouldn't it be better on an in issue which isn't crystal clear to take the safe path?

As in if in doubt about anything, best to avoid it wouldnt you agree?

Can you please tell me what all four imams say on this topic tawassul with references?

Also would tawassul always be done when making dua?

- Not every difference of opinion is taken into consideration.

The issue of Tawassul with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) in one's supplication to Allah ta'ala was regarded as correct and allowed for the first 700 years of Hijra.

Then Imam Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) came and made a huge issue of it and tried to disallow it, but the scholars of his very own time did not accept this position from him and there is actually an incident reported by his own leading students where he discussed this issue with other scholars and returned to truth on Tawassul (and Tashaffu' also) and stated that it's allowed and only regarded Istighatha as forbidden.

After Imam Ibn Taymiyya the scholars continued to allow it.

For the first 1000 years of Hijra the number of major scholars disallowing Tawassul with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) could be counted with one hand! So what kind of difference of opinion is this?

Only after the appearance of the Najdis and thereafter the "Salafis" and their petrodollars the position of disallowing Tawassul spread among the people until it reached the state today where a lot of people falsely believe that Tawassul somehow "goes against Tawhid".
Suddenly some people think that describing Allah ta'ala with human attributes is "Tawhid", but Tawassul is "against Tawhid and near to Shirk".
Now this is an ugly innovation and an attempt to change the religion and mix up Tawhid and Shirk until the people don't know its difference anymor.



- There is no doubt on this issue other than the Shubuhat that the Najdis and their ilk have put into the minds of some people.
So no leaving a permissible means to one's Lord is not "being on the safe side".

Yes, if someone says that laymen should not perform Istighatha, then he definitely has a point.



- Regarding the position of the 4 Imams regarding this issue: I'm sure you're not intending this with your question brother, but it makes it seem as if you think that the 4 Madhahib are only the opinions of the 4 Imams, while the reality is that there are literally hundreds of major scholars under each Madhhab.

I am specifically mentioning this because these salafless "Salafis" have put this type of thinking into the mind of a lot of people.

But I will answer your question anyways:
Imam Abu Hanifa (d. 150 AH) did only have a problem with using the wording "by the right of so and so upon you", but had no problem with Tawassul itself.
Imam Malik (d. 179 AH) famously stated in the incident reported by al-Qadhi 'Iyadh (d. 544 AH) in his masterpiece al-Shifa bi Ta'rif Huquq al-Mustafa from a number of his trustworthy teachers with an authentic chain that he stated in the context of the visitation and whether to face the Qibla or the blessed grave "How could you turn your face away from him when he is the means (wasila) of your and your father Adam's forgiveness to Allah on the Day of Resurrection? Nay, FACE HIM AND ASK FOR HIS INTERCESSION (ISTASHFI` BIHI) so that Allah will grant it to you as He said: "If they had only, when they were wronging themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft- returning, Most Merciful (4:64)."".
As for Imam al-Shafi'i (d. 204 AH), then Imam al-Khatib al-Baghdadi (d. 463 AH) mentioned in Tarikh Baghdad his Tawassul / Tabarruk with Imam Abu Hanifa and others mentioned it under the Manaqib of Imam Abu Hanifa.
As for Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH), then Imam al-Marrudhi (d. 275 AH) (his direct student!) mentioned in his Mansak that he regarded Tawassul with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) in one's supplication as correct and this is what later Hanabila also mentioned as the Madhhab itself. Even Imam ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) admitted that this was indeed the position of Imam Ahmad.

And as for relied upon position of all 4 Madhahib, then they all allow it as is known.



- As for your last question whether it's always done in supplication: There is no such obligation.


In the next post I would like to correct some misunderstanding regarding the first type of Tawassul and its difference with Tashaffu' / second type of Tawassul.

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

...Imam Abu Hanifa (d. 150 AH) did only have a problem with using the wording "by the right of so and so upon you", but had no problem with Tawassul itself...

What did the Imam say about tawassul?