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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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  • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

    yea i agree with you in the sense where we as muslims have been gifted with the fact that we can call upon directly and not just directly but as he says call upon him with his beautiful names too,
    so we dont just call upon him but we remember his oneness (tawheed) whilst calling him remember he is our everything as in provider, protector etc etc

    so yea im in the same boat as you in regards to believing that why go through any intermediaries whether that be the prophet or whoever it may be when you can just go directly yourself,
    no need for a middle man as such

    now there may be some stuff i disagree with salafies but one thing i really admire is the fact that they always emphasize tawheed

    yea youre also right that some people arent arguing for the truth but its more for their ego just to say 'im right'
    Brother, could you do me a favour and answer six questions of mine?

    1. Is a person who asks another living person for help a disbeliever?

    2. Is a person who asks another living person to make Dua to Allah for them (Tawassul), a disbeliever?

    3. Is a person who makes dua to another living person a disbeliever?

    4. Is a person who asks a deceased person for help a disbeliever?

    5. Is a person who asks a deceased person to make Dua to Allah for them (Tawassul), a disbeliever?

    6. Is a person who makes dua to a deceased person a disbeliever?


    No I am not trying to catch you out dear brother, I will insha'Allah post my own answers to these six questions too.
    Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
    "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
    Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

    Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
    1/116

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

      Brother, could you do me a favour and answer six questions of mine?

      1. Is a person who asks another living person for help a disbeliever?

      2. Is a person who asks another living person to make Dua to Allah for them (Tawassul), a disbeliever?

      3. Is a person who makes dua to another living person a disbeliever?

      4. Is a person who asks a deceased person for help a disbeliever?

      5. Is a person who asks a deceased person to make Dua to Allah for them (Tawassul), a disbeliever?

      6. Is a person who makes dua to a deceased person a disbeliever?


      No I am not trying to catch you out dear brother, I will insha'Allah post my own answers to these six questions too.
      (in my answers below, the hypothetical men are Mu'kallafin i.e. sane, adult, awake and he is not ignorant)

      My Answers

      Question One

      If the person who asks the other living person for help thinks they have power/ability independent of Allah, or can act without Allah having willed their action, they are a disbeliever.

      E.g. a man asks another man for help - in his heart he considers him to have power/ability independent of Allah. He is a disbeliever.

      However if the person who asks the other living person for help, believes that only Allah has power/ability, and anything can only act if he has decreed, then they are a believer.

      E.g. I ask you for help Simply_Logical. I ask you to help me understand something. That does not take me outside of Islam. (Sounds obvious but it is very important to understand this).


      Question Two

      I mean this would never happen practically as it is a sort of internal contradiction, but theoretically if someone believed a person has the ability/power to make dua to Allah independent of Allah, they are a disbeliever. Allah has power over all things, you will not e.g. raise your hands in Dua without Allah's will and permission.

      But more practically, this is not disbelief, the act of worship is directed to Allah. Calling someone to worship Allah, is the essence of Tawhid, not Shirk. You might ask them because they have a closer rank, or you are acting on a Hadith. E.g. that the dua of the parent for the child is answered, so one whose parent is still alive, might go up to them and ask, "Please make dua to Allah for me". You might also ask someone very pious to make dua for you.

      This is explicitly mentioned in the Qur'an with regards to RasulAllah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam and everyone, "Sufi" and ps.Salafi agrees this applied when the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam was alive. Therefore to think this is impermissible or disbelieve, is in and of itself disbelief.

      People do this all the time on this forum. I ask brothers and sisters to make Dua for me. That is Tawassul.

      Question Three

      This is always disbelief by definition.

      Dua is an act of worship, of asking for help or supplicating, directed to that which someone believes is divine i.e. that which is an Ilah (god). La Ilaha Il-Allah. There is no god but Allah.

      Question Four

      Now this is where some brothers invent a new principle. They say "Whenever you ask help from the one who cannot give it, it is disbelief" What??

      That makes no sense.

      Yes you can attempt to make the objection, "But the dead can't help you," If I accept this for a moment, and agree for sake of argument, then what? So the dead can't help. So how does this become disbelief? Is the one who asks the deaf man to make dua for him a disbeliever? No.

      You can say, "They are ignorant as the dead can't help" and that is it. They would be asking for something that can't happen.

      However can the dead, like the alive in question one, help you?

      Not independently of Allah. If someone believes the dead person has capacity/ability/power to cause anything, to harm or benefit, indepedently of Allah, they are a disbeliever.

      However if someone believes that Allah can give that person the ability to help (which we all believe - as Allah is capable of everything), then that person can help them if Allah wills. Then they are a believer.

      Only Allah can make the dead hear, and only Allah can decree for them to make any action. We are powerless slaves, whether dead or alive, reliant on Him alone.

      Whether this, known as Istigatha, is Halal or Haram is a different and unrelated question. Personally I would never ask a deceased person to assist me. Some Ulama permitted this, other prohibited this. It is a valid Ikhtilaf.

      Question Five

      Again, hypothetically (even if this would never happen as it is an internal contradiction), if someone believes the dead has capacity or ability to make even Dua to Allah indepedent of Allah's will and decree, then they are a disbeliever. However no one practically ever believes this - as why would you ask the one who has independent power to rely on another (makes no sense)?

      As for this act, Tawassul of the Dead, we all believe that Allah has the power to do anything. He can make the dead pray for you. This is in authentic Hadith as well that e.g. the Prophets Alayhis Salam pray. Moreover there are actual Hadith evidencing Tawassul of the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam both before and after he tasted death.

      So then it is not disbelief, in fact it is according to many Ulama historically a recommended act in relation to RasulAllah Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam - to ask him to make Dua to Allah, just as one would ask ones Imam or parents or friend to make dua for them in this world.

      (Sidenote: The Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam tasted death but is alive in the grave, as are all Prophets Alayhim Salam. So you are not even asking the dead in the first place...)

      Personally, I do not argue on topics of fiqhi difference of opinion, so if someone wants to argue that this is Haram because it is not Allah's Sunnah or will that the dead hear, then I have no qualms, I respectfully disagree. My issue is with the one who regards this as disbelief as they are making something that is not Shirk into Shirk.

      Question Six

      Again, this is always disbelief by definition.

      Our Shaykh AbuMubarak thought that this is what we are calling to. A'udhubillah. No.

      I repeat: .

      Dua is an act of worship, of asking for help or supplicating, directed to that which someone believes is divine i.e. that which is an Ilah (god). La Ilaha Il-Allah. There is no god but Allah.

      There is nothing worthy of worship but Allah.

      The one who makes dua to anything other than Allah, dead or alive etc. is a Mushrik and a disbeliever.

      Believing that the one who worships (by making dua) other than Allah is not a disbeliever, is in and of itself disbelief.



      Simply_Logical I await your answers to those six questions.
      Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 20-03-21, 09:09 PM.
      Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
      "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
      Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

      Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
      1/116

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

        Brother, could you do me a favour and answer six questions of mine?

        1. Is a person who asks another living person for help a disbeliever?

        2. Is a person who asks another living person to make Dua to Allah for them (Tawassul), a disbeliever?

        3. Is a person who makes dua to another living person a disbeliever?

        4. Is a person who asks a deceased person for help a disbeliever?

        5. Is a person who asks a deceased person to make Dua to Allah for them (Tawassul), a disbeliever?

        6. Is a person who makes dua to a deceased person a disbeliever?


        No I am not trying to catch you out dear brother, I will insha'Allah post my own answers to these six questions too.
        Simply_Logical you can answer these with just a simple "yes" or "no" if you want to insha'Allah.
        Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
        "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
        Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

        Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
        1/116

        Comment


        • IAW's lack of connection to classic scholarship

          Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
          Among the scholars that Shaykh ul-Islam Muhammad bin Abd al-Wahhab took knowledge from was at the hands of Shaykh Abd Allah bin Ibrahim bin Sayf al-Madani- who traveled to Sham and took knowledge from Abd al-Qadir at-Taghlibi, from Abd al-Baqi, from the Qadi, the Mufti of the Hanabilah Ahmad al-Wafa'ee, through a line to the famous Hanbali scholar Musa al-Hajjawi, then al-Hafiz Ibn Rajab, from Ibn Qayyim, from Ibn Taymiyyah for Sahih al-Bukhari.
          Just wanted to comment on the above, so that no one falsely believes that Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) was properly connected to the chain of knowledge of the classical scholars:

          - IAW himself had disassociated himself from all of his teachers and claimed that they didn't know Islam / Tawhid (as shown HERE). He also stated the same regarding all the scholars of his region and even regarding their teachers.
          So he invalidated his connection to classical scholarship thereby.
          - The 'Allama 'Abd al-Qadir al-Taghlibi (d. 1135 AH) was the teacher of the 'Allama al-Saffarini (d. 1188 AH), who is the author of the famous poem in Hanbali creed.
          IAW wrote to one of the students of al-Saffarini (i.e. the Shakyh 'Abdullah bin 'Isa (d. 1175 AH)) that neither he, nor his teachers (which includes al-Saffarini!), nor their teachers (which includes 'Abd al-Qadir al-Taghlibi!) understood Islam / Tawhid (as shown HERE)!
          This again invalidates his connection.
          ​​​- The 'Allama 'Abd al-Baqi al-Mawahibi (d. 1071 AH) and the 'Allama Ibn Balban (d. 1083 AH) were both among the teachers of the 'Allama 'Abd al-Qadir al-Taghlibi.
          As for the former, then he's the author of the Hanbali creedal work al-'Ayn wal Athar and an Azhari! As for the latter, then he's the author of the Hanbali creedal work Qala`id al-'Iqyan.
          Both these works are rejected by the modern followers of IAW and regarded as "deviant".
          (See: ""Salafis" accuse classical Hanbalis of "treason" and "misrepresenting" Imam Ahmad's creed")


          One could add other points, but the above should be enough to see that IAW had no connection to classical scholarship.
          And as for him being a scholar, then the 'Allama Ibn 'Afaliq (d. 1164 AH) proved in his work Tahakkum al-Muqallidin bi man idda'a Tajdid al-Din that IAW lacked proficiency of some basic Islamic sciences and was far away from being a real and knowledgeable scholar let alone a leading one.


          Note that "Salafis" in their vain tried also to connect Ibn 'Uthaymin (the man who accuses the 'Allama al-Saffarini of "polytheism in lordship and divinity" and who believes that the being that he worships may have a round face!) to classic scholarship and this through the way of none other than the 'Allama Ibn Fayruz (d. 1216 AH) (who is also connected to the 'Allama Abd al-Qadir al-Taghlibi through his father and grandfather), while completely forgetting the fact that their IAW made open Takfir (!!) against the 'Allama Ibn Fayruz and other Hanabila (see HERE) and that in addition to the above points!
          (See: ""Ibn 'Uthaymin and his broken chain of knowledge").


          So this is how these people are "connected" to classical scholarship! Making Tabdi' and Takfir upon classical scholars seems to be a sort of "connection" to them in their mind!
          They regard these very same scholars (who were real scholars!) as "deviants" and as "ignorant of the very foundations of the religion"!
          There should be not doubt that they themselves are more deserving of these descriptions!

          ​​



          ​​​​​​
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 21-03-21, 12:05 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

            Brother, could you do me a favour and answer six questions of mine?

            1. Is a person who asks another living person for help a disbeliever?

            2. Is a person who asks another living person to make Dua to Allah for them (Tawassul), a disbeliever?

            3. Is a person who makes dua to another living person a disbeliever?

            4. Is a person who asks a deceased person for help a disbeliever?

            5. Is a person who asks a deceased person to make Dua to Allah for them (Tawassul), a disbeliever?

            6. Is a person who makes dua to a deceased person a disbeliever?


            No I am not trying to catch you out dear brother, I will insha'Allah post my own answers to these six questions too.
            did i say something islamically wrong in my post?

            what has my post got to do with these questions youre asking?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

              did i say something islamically wrong in my post?

              what has my post got to do with these questions youre asking?
              Ignore it akhi, lest you and I get accused of shirk, kufr and nifaaq
              .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
              نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
              دولة الإسلامية باقية





              Comment


              • Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post

                Ignore it akhi, lest you and I get accused of shirk, kufr and nifaaq
                (Explained to Shaykh)
                Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 21-03-21, 11:51 PM. Reason: Redacted
                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                1/116

                Comment


                • Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post

                  Ignore it akhi, lest you and I get accused of shirk, kufr and nifaaq
                  In fact you're a mod, edit and remove the statement where I said that to you, I've PM'd it to you instead.
                  Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                  "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                  Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                  Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                  1/116

                  Comment


                  • Muhammad Hasan why did you PM me in regard to mine and your post and your six questions?

                    you said in the PM what i said islamically is wrong, here is my previous post below please explain where or what i said exactly is islamically wrong? thanks jazakaAllah

                    yea i agree with you in the sense where we as muslims have been gifted with the fact that we can call upon directly and not just directly but as he says call upon him with his beautiful names too,
                    so we dont just call upon him but we remember his oneness (tawheed) whilst calling him remember he is our everything as in provider, protector etc etc

                    so yea im in the same boat as you in regards to believing that why go through any intermediaries whether that be the prophet or whoever it may be when you can just go directly yourself,
                    no need for a middle man as such

                    now there may be some stuff i disagree with salafies but one thing i really admire is the fact that they always emphasize tawheed

                    yea youre also right that some people arent arguing for the truth but its more for their ego just to say 'im right'
                    also if you have something to say, say it out in the open in sha Allah

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post
                      Muhammad Hasan why did you PM me in regard to mine and your post and your six questions?

                      you said in the PM what i said islamically is wrong, here is my previous post below please explain where or what i said exactly is islamically wrong? thanks jazakaAllah



                      also if you have something to say, say it out in the open in sha Allah
                      Because I do not like correcting people publically. Nevertheless the words in the above "I agree with you" to the post of our Shaykh, and then "I disagree with salafies but one thing i really admire is the fact that they always emphasize tawheed" - which is wrong on multiple levels but shows you agree with their general mindset on this issue (which is innovatory). I would only say the emphasise Tawheed in the slogan sense, calling to it outwardly, which is good but not good enough.

                      Brother please attempt to answer the 6 questions so I can guage what exactly your misunderstanding is. I posted my answers too so you know I am not trying to catch you out or something.
                      Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 24-03-21, 11:25 AM.
                      Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                      "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                      Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                      Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                      1/116

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post
                        Muhammad Hasan why did you PM me in regard to mine and your post and your six questions?

                        you said in the PM what i said islamically is wrong, here is my previous post below please explain where or what i said exactly is islamically wrong? thanks jazakaAllah



                        also if you have something to say, say it out in the open in sha Allah
                        There are some people who you can tell discussing these things with are not fruitful, you dear brother do not seem to be like that, which I want to engage with you on this issue.
                        Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                        "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                        Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                        Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                        1/116

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                          Because I do not like correcting people publically. Nevertheless the words in the above "I agree with you" to the post of our Shaykh, and then "I disagree with salafies but one thing i really admire is the fact that they always emphasize tawheed" - which is wrong on multiple levels but shows you agree with their general mindset on this issue (which is innovatory). I would only say the emphasise Tawheed in the slogan sense, calling to it outwardly, which is good but not good enough.

                          Brother please attempt to answer the 6 questions so I can guage what exactly your misunderstanding is. I posted my answers too so you know I am not trying to catch you out or something.
                          for a start let me ask you are you an aalim or someone whos studied the deen as in a student of knowledge?

                          no offence is meant but id rather take knowledge from a learned person rather then a fellow layman as its something you can appreciate

                          im not going to answer those quesitons, why? because i dont need to explain myself to anyone and i am not in court and not on trail

                          but i will let you know why i said what i said, reason being is whenever ive been in a salafi/ahle hadith masjid say for example green lane masjid, they always have a strong emphasis on tawheed, how can that ever be a bad thing? how cna building your foundation of tawheed be a bad thing? i mean regardless to if youre salafi/barelvi/deobandi etc etc anyone helping strenghting your tawheed should be an admirable trait

                          please dont be offended with my post, by Allah i dont mean no offence but just understand where im coming from and my points, thanks brother jazakAllah khayran

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                            There are some people who you can tell discussing these things with are not fruitful, you dear brother do not seem to be like that, which I want to engage with you on this issue.
                            well did you PM @abu mubarak the same PM that you sent to me?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

                              for a start let me ask you are you an aalim or someone whos studied the deen as in a student of knowledge?

                              no offence is meant but id rather take knowledge from a learned person rather then a fellow layman as its something you can appreciate

                              im not going to answer those quesitons, why? because i dont need to explain myself to anyone and i am not in court and not on trail

                              but i will let you know why i said what i said, reason being is whenever ive been in a salafi/ahle hadith masjid say for example green lane masjid, they always have a strong emphasis on tawheed, how can that ever be a bad thing? how cna building your foundation of tawheed be a bad thing? i mean regardless to if youre salafi/barelvi/deobandi etc etc anyone helping strenghting your tawheed should be an admirable trait

                              please dont be offended with my post, by Allah i dont mean no offence but just understand where im coming from and my points, thanks brother jazakAllah khayran
                              They call to Tawheed but they are not from its people. I am surprised, you really think I am trying to interrogate you, no I am not. You wished to understand these issues earlier and now you turn away and claim the ps.Salafiyyah are upon Tawhid? And when I ask you some basic questions - and provide you with my answers - you refuse to answer.


                              No I am not a scholar or student of knowledge, this is not an issue where you are meant to be blindly following scholars such that you unable to indepedently explain what position you hold. You are supposed to understand things for yourself and must be able to explain and defend your own views. That's all I've asked you for - for you to explain what views you hold. That is what the six questions are. But you refuse to even tell me what your views are? Why?
                              Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                              "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                              Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                              Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                              1/116

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

                                but i will let you know why i said what i said, reason being is whenever ive been in a salafi/ahle hadith masjid say for example green lane masjid, they always have a strong emphasis on tawheed, how can that ever be a bad thing? how cna building your foundation of tawheed be a bad thing? i mean regardless to if youre salafi/barelvi/deobandi etc etc anyone helping strenghting your tawheed should be an admirable trait
                                It is not the calling to Tawhid that is bad, it is good, but they are not actually upon it. It's mere slogans. Like a certain group said to Imam Ali Radiyallahu Anhu, "Rule by the Qur'an!" Implying Imam Ali Radiyallahu Anhu was not ruling by the Qur'an.

                                They declare what is not Shirk and Kufr to be Shirk. That is an innovation and dangerous! This is why I am engaging with you on this, I want you to explain your views to me on this. Maybe I am wrong, you do not hold any false views - how would I know until you say so? From what you have said it is clear you agree with them on this issue and yet you are unwilling and seemingly unable to explain a fundamental belief you seem to hold.
                                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                                1/116

                                Comment

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