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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Bolt View Post

    might want to elaborate then
    or wait till OP replies
    Brother, I would really ignore this person. He clearly does not care AT ALL what the classical scholars of Islam - the very people who have transmitted to us the religion and whom the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - called as the Inheritors Of The Prophets! - stated regarding this issue!
    A materialist minded troll - who for some reason is also a mod - living in the 21th century is in NO position to doubt the ruling given by the classical scholars!

    By the way: It's ESTABLISHED by many authentic narrations that the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is alive in his grave and that our deeds are presented to him and that he prays for his Umma! No one denies this except an innovator or a heretic, so let the troll decide which one he is!

    Originally posted by Bolt View Post
    The major reservation I have left about seeking intercession with the prophet is that the prophet himself, to my knowledge, did not ever say himself to approach Allah through him. Sure there's the verse that was quoted but that is not an explicit reference to tawassul and even if it was it doesn't state that one can continue the practice after the Prophet's death.

    Jazakallah khayr
    The 64th Aya of Surat al-Nisa` is general in meaning such that it necessitates that it applies to all times. This is what the classical scholars in general understood. Why do you think that one classical scholar after the other quoted it in this context (as shown in this thread)?

    As for the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - teaching this, then the authentic Hadith of the blind man (its authenticity is agreed upon!) has been already mentioned and it was teached by the Sahabi 'Uthman bin Hunayf (radhiallahu 'anhu) after the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - had passed away and Imam Ibn Abi Dunya (d. 281 AH) affirmed that this supplication was used by the early Muslims! The wording of the Hadith is again general - something clearly understood and affirmed by the early scholars of Hadith! - and the Muslims have acted upon it generation after generation.
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 03-10-20, 04:31 PM.

    Comment


    • #62
      Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post

      I understand brother and don't blame you tbh as much of it is due to the bias that exists in the literature published by salafis. The more one looks into it deeper and learn the opinion held by the classical ulama on this issue the clearer it becomes. Just to clarify i don't know of anyone that says to seek help from the jinn.

      When you're in doubt about anything then the best solution is to refrain from it until you're in a better position to assess it, this however is different than making claims that whatever you find doubtful then that thing/issue is haram etc.

      There's the hadith of the blind man who comes to the Prophet asking Him to make dua fo him. Tirmidhi relates, through his chain of narrators from ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf, that a blind man came to the Prophet and said, “I’ve been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for me.” The Prophet said: “Go make ablution (wudu), perform two rak’as of prayer, and then say:

      “Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: “for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me”].
      Yeah that's what I've been doing, I don't have that much time rn to look into this matter as in-depth as I'd like so until then I won't be applying this to be on the safe side.

      Oh, I forgot about that Hadith, my bad. I'm inclined towards the permissibility of tawassul now but I'm going to wait until I can spend more time researching.


      "When you want to cry, laugh.
      If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

      Comment


      • #63
        Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

        What does that even mean?

        How can the intercessor not have knowledge of, nor approve of, the dua or person they are interceding for?
        You're asking Allah to make them intercede for you, and he can do anything. It doesn't need to make sense to us especially since it's supported by an authentic Hadith which shows tawassul was advocated by the prophet himself:

        Tirmidhi relates, through his chain of narrators from ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf, that a blind man came to the Prophet and said, “I’ve been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for me.” The Prophet said: “Go make ablution (wudu), perform two rak’as of prayer, and then say:

        “Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: “for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me”].
        There's a very similar Hadith which is in Bukhari and Muslim as well check this link out: http://hadithproofsfortawassul.blogs...d-man.html?m=1
        Last edited by Bolt; 03-10-20, 06:01 PM.
        "When you want to cry, laugh.
        If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

        Comment


        • #64
          Originally posted by Bolt View Post

          Yeah that's what I've been doing, I don't have that much time rn to look into this matter as in-depth as I'd like so until then I won't be applying this to be on the safe side.

          Oh, I forgot about that Hadith, my bad. I'm inclined towards the permissibility of tawassul now but I'm going to wait until I can spend more time researching.

          Nothing to worry about, just learn at your pace that you're comfortable with brother.

          May Allah increase you in goodness and understanding of the deen



          Comment


          • #65
            Originally posted by Bolt View Post

            You're asking Allah to make them intercede for you, and he can do anything. It doesn't need to make sense to us especially since it's supported by an authentic Hadith which shows tawassul was advocated by the prophet himself:



            There's a very similar Hadith which is in Bukhari and Muslim as well check this link out: http://hadithproofsfortawassul.blogs...d-man.html?m=1
            The example you gave is where the messenger of Allah gave permission. You have turned what appears to be specific advice to a specific person and made it general. Did the messenger of Allah always advise his companions to make dua in this manner? (Hint: no)

            Comment


            • #66
              Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

              Brother, I would really ignore this person. He clearly does not care AT ALL what the classical scholars of Islam - the very people who have transmitted to us the religion and whom the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - called as the Inheritors Of The Prophets! - stated regarding this issue!
              A materialist minded troll - who for some reason is also a mod - living in the 21th century is in NO position to doubt the ruling given by the classical scholars!

              By the way: It's ESTABLISHED by many authentic narrations that the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is alive in his grave and that our deeds are presented to him and that he prays for his Umma! No one denies this except an innovator or a heretic, so let the troll decide which one he is!



              The 64th Aya of Surat al-Nisa` is general in meaning such that it necessitates that it applies to all times. This is what the classical scholars in general understood. Why do you think that one classical scholar after the other quoted it in this context (as shown in this thread)?

              As for the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - teaching this, then the authentic Hadith of the blind man (its authenticity is agreed upon!) has been already mentioned and it was teached by the Sahabi 'Uthman bin Hunayf (radhiallahu 'anhu) after the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - had passed away and Imam Ibn Abi Dunya (d. 281 AH) affirmed that this supplication was used by the early Muslims! The wording of the Hadith is again general - something clearly understood and affirmed by the early scholars of Hadith! - and the Muslims have acted upon it generation after generation.
              I was under the impression that the Hadith was Hasan, I probably mixed it up with some other one. I thought it was only one scholar's view on the ayah, but if there's an ijma of the classical scholars then there's no debating that.
              Jazakallah khayr

              I am pretty much convinced now just a bit scared since I don't want to fall into shirk, will probably look into it after I have more time on my hands


              ​​​​​​
              "When you want to cry, laugh.
              If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

              Comment


              • #67
                Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                Imam 'Abdullah bin al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH), Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH), Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH) and other scholars from the Salaf and Khalaf ACTED UPON the Hadith "O slaves of Allah! Help me!"

                Imam al-Tabarani (d. 360 AH) has reported in his al-Mu'jam al-Kabir 10/276 the following Hadith on the authority of 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud - radhiallahu 'anhu - that the Messenger of Allah ﷺ said:

                إذا انفلتت دابة أحدكم بأرض فلاة فليناد : يا عباد الله ، احبسوا علي ، يا عباد الله احبسوا علي ؛ فإن لله في الأرض حاضرا سيحبسه عليكم

                When one loses his means of transport in a (deserted) land, he should call: “O slaves of Allāh! Help me recover (my transport)for there are many of Allāh’s attendants on this earth. They will help you recover it.
                - end of quote -

                Note that this Hadith is weak (dha'if) at first glance. There are however supporting evidences, so this Hadith becomes fair (hasan) and it is strengthened due to the practice of the Umma.


                The Shaykh Mahmud Sa'id Mamduh mentioned the above narration in his Raf' al-Minara (p. 225) and also its weaknes and then stated (translation taken from here: "O slaves of Allah! Help me!"):

                ومع ذلك فللحديث طرق تقويه وترفعه من الضعف إلى الحسن المقبول المعمول به

                Nonetheless, the Hadīth has supporting routes which transform it from a weak Hadīth to a hasan (fair) one which is acceptable and actable upon.
                - end of quote -


                He then mentions three supporting routes to strengthen the narration (see p. 226 - 228) (see the article linked above where his discussion is translated).


                Then he says at the end (on p. 229 - 230) (translation from the same link as above):

                فائدة
                إذا ورد حديث بسند ضعيف يصير من قسم المقبول الذي هو أعم من الصحيح والحسن إذا تلقته الأمة بالقبول، أما إذا عمل به بعض الأئمة - كحديثنا هذا - ففي عملهم تقوية له.
                قال الحافظ البيهقي في السنن الكبرى (3 / 52) بعد أن روى حديث صلاة التسبيح ما نصه: وكان عبد الله بن المبارك يفعلها وتداولها الصالحون بعضهم عن بعض وفيه تقوية للحديث المرفوع.ا ه‍
                ونحوه لشيخه الحاكم في المستدرك (1 / 320).
                والحديث عمل به الأئمة وجربوه:
                1 - ففي المسائل، وشعب الإيمان للبيهقي: قال عبد الله بن الإمام أحمد: سمعت أبي يقول: حججت خمس حجج منها ثنتين راكبا، وثلاثة ماشيا، أو ثنتين ماشيا وثلاثة راكبا، فضللت الطريق في حجة وكنت ماشيا فجعلت أقول: يا عباد الله دلونا على الطريق، فلم أزل أقول ذلك حتى وقعت على الطريق، أو كما قال أبي. ا ه‍ 2 - وبعد أن أخرج أبو القاسم الطبراني الحديث في معجمه الكبير (17 / 117) قال: وقد جرب ذلك.
                3 - قال الإمام النووي في الأذكار (ص 331) بعد أن ذكر الحديث ما نصه: حكى لي بعض شيوخنا الكبار في العلم أنه انفلتت له دابة أظنها بغلة وكان يعرف هذا الحديث فقاله، فحبسها الله عليهم في الحال، وكنت أنا مرة مع جماعة فانفلتت منا بهيمة وعجزوا عنها فقلته فوقفت في الحال بغير سوى هذا الكلام. ا ه


                Benefit

                When a Hadīth is mentioned with a
                da`īf chain it becomes acceptable, either sahīh or hasan, when the Ummah has accepted it; as for when some of the scholars have practised it like the Hadīth at hand their action strengthens the report.

                Al-Hāfidh al-Bayhaqī said, after narrating the Hadīth on salāt al-tasabīh:

                `Abdullāh Ibn al-Mubārak would do it and it has been passed down by the pious and this strengthens the marfū` Hadīth. [Al-Sunan al-Kubra 3/52]



                A similar statement was made by his Shaykh al-Hākim. [Al-Mustadrak 1/320]

                The Hadīth has been acted upon and practiced by the scholars:

                `Abdullāh Ibn Imām Ahmad said, “I heard my father say:

                I did five Hajjs: two on camel and three on foot, or two on foot and three on camel and when I lost my way when walking I would say “O slaves of Allāh! Guide us towards the (correct) route,” and then I continued a little before I found myself back on the (correct) route



                or as it was said by my father”. [Al-Masa`il and Shu'ab al-Iman by al-Bayhaqi]

                After Abūl Qāsim al-Tabarānī transmitted it, he said:

                This has been acted upon.” [Al-Mu'jam al-Kabir 17/117]



                • Imām an-Nawawī, after mentioning this Hadīth:

                One of our kibār (major scholars) in knowledge related to me that he lost his means of transport, which I presume was a mule, and he was aware of this Hadīth and said (the dū`a) so Allāh brought to him his animal immediately.”

                I was once with a group of people and my animal fled and the people failed (to find it) and I said (the du’a) and I found the animal immediately without any means but this statement.[al-Adhkar p. 133]


                - end of quote -


                Comment: So where are all those claims that the Salaf al-salih never did Istighatha?!


                Remember also that it's established that the Salaf al-salih would perform Tawassul:


                One of the supporting routes of the narration "O slaves of Allah! Help me!"

                Imam al-Bazzar (d. 292 AH) reported in his Musnad 11/181 on the autority of Ibn 'Abbas - radhiallahu 'anhuma - that the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - stated the following:

                إِنَّ لِلَّهِ مَلائِكَةً فِي الأَرْضِ سِوَى الْحَفَظَةِ يَكْتُبُونَ مَا سَقَطَ مِنْ وَرَقِ الشَّجَرِ فَإِذَا أَصَابَ أَحَدَكُمْ عَرْجَةٌ بِأَرْضٍ فَلاةٍ فَلْيُنَادِ: أَعِينُوا عِبَادَ اللَّهِ

                Indeed Allāh possesses Angels besides the Hafadha (the Angels of Protection) who write (of even) the leaf which falls from a tree so when one of you suffers a limp in a deserted land he should call, Assist (me) O slaves of Allāh
                - end of quote -

                Imam [Nur al-Din] al-Haythami (d. 807 AH) - the great expert in Hadith - stated in his Majma' al-Zawa`id 10/132 concerning the above narration:

                رَوَاهُ الْبَزَّارُ، وَرِجَالُهُ ثِقَات

                Al-Bazzār related it and its narrators are reliable.
                - end of quote -

                'Allama Ibn 'Allan (d. 1057 AH) stated in his al-Futuhat al-Rabbaniyya 'ala al-Adhkar al-Nawawiyya 5/151:

                قال الحافظ ... هذا حديث حسن الإسناد غريب جدًّا

                Al-Hāfidh (Ibn Hajar) said: “... The chain is hasan and gharīb jiddan (very rare)”
                - end of quote -

                Imam al-Sakhawi (d. 902 AH) - another authority in Hadith - also regarded it as good (hasan) in his al-Ibtihaj bi Adhkar al-Musafir al-Hajj.

                (Remember: This has been acted upon by the early Muslims.)

                Comment


                • #68
                  Originally posted by Bolt View Post

                  I was under the impression that the Hadith was Hasan, I probably mixed it up with some other one.
                  ​​​​​​
                  You mixed it up with the "O slaves of Allah! Help me!"-narration, which is good (Hasan) as already shown.
                  As for the Hadith of the blind man, then it meets the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim and is therefore authentic (Sahih) by agreement!

                  Even Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) - who is the first to doubt the issue of Tawassul! - mentioned the different sources of the narration in his Qa'ida Jalila and affirmed its authenticity. What he however did was to try to act as if this only applies to the lifetime of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam. Now guess what happened to him? He got imprisoned for this, because the scholars (!) told him that this issue is based upon the high rank and status of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and this does not change with his passing away!

                  Originally posted by Bolt View Post
                  I thought it was only one scholar's view on the ayah, but if there's an ijma of the classical scholars then there's no debating that.
                  Jazakallah khayr
                  ​​​​​​
                  There is actually one scholar, who was the first in history to act as if the Aya is specific and not general and it was again Ibn Taymiyya. Everyone else before and after him - with the exception of some of his extreme followers - disagreed with him, because according to the Arabic language the wording is clearly general, so there is no room to claim specification!

                  In this thread a number of scholars were quoted, who mentioned the Aya in the context of the visitation (thereby regarding it as general):
                  Imam Malik (d. 179 AH), Imam al-Mawardi (d.450 AH), Imam al-Ghazali (d. 505 AH), Imam Ibn 'Aqil (d. 513 AH), Imam 'Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani (d. 561 AH), Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH), Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH) and Imam Ibn Mawdud (d. 683 AH).

                  Note that EVERY single one of the above scholars was BEFORE Ibn Taymiyya and one can easily quote more (!), while the opponents are not able to quote a SINGLE (!) person before Ibn Taymiyya.

                  Originally posted by Bolt View Post
                  I am pretty much convinced now just a bit scared since I don't want to fall into shirk, will probably look into it after I have more time on my hands
                  ​​​​​
                  Take your time brother. No one forces you to do something that you feel uncomfortable with. This issue is simply a Fiqh issue and therefore all of the classical scholars only mentioned it in their Fiqh books.

                  What is important for you is to be able to differentiate between real Tawhid and real Shirk. I think by now you've realized that the Shirk of the polytheists was based upon ascribing characteristics of divine Lordship to other than Allah ta'ala. As for Tawhid, then Surat al-Ikhlas is the very foundation of Tawhid and those who have taken other than it as foundation have deviated from the truth. May Allah ta'ala guide us all.
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 03-10-20, 09:37 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #69
                    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                    You mixed it up with the "O slaves of Allah! Help me!"-narration, which is good (Hasan) as already shown.
                    As for the Hadith of the blind man, then it meets the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim and is therefore authentic (Sahih) by agreement!

                    Even Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) - who is the first to doubt the issue of Tawassul! - mentioned the different sources of the narration in his Qa'ida Jalila and affirmed its authenticity. What he however did was to try to act as if this only applies to the lifetime of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam. Now guess what happened to him? He got imprisoned for this, because the scholars (!) told him that this issue is based upon the high rank and status of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and this does not change with his passing away!



                    There is actually one scholar, who was the first in history to act as if the Aya is specific and not general and it was again Ibn Taymiyya. Everyone else before and after him - with the exception of some of his extreme followers - disagreed with him, because according to the Arabic language the wording is clearly general, so there is no room to claim specification!

                    In this thread a number of scholars were quoted, who mentioned the Aya in the context of the visitation (thereby regarding it as general):
                    Imam Malik (d. 179 AH), Imam al-Mawardi (d.450 AH), Imam al-Ghazali (d. 505 AH), Imam Ibn 'Aqil (d. 513 AH), Imam 'Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani (d. 561 AH), Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH), Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH) and Imam Ibn Mawdud (d. 683 AH).

                    Note that EVERY single one of the above scholars was BEFORE Ibn Taymiyya and one can easily quote more (!), while the opponents are not able to quote a SINGLE (!) person before Ibn Taymiyya.



                    Take your time brother. No one forces you to do something that you feel uncomfortable with. This issue is simply a Fiqh issue and therefore all of the classical scholars only mentioned it in their Fiqh books.

                    What is important for you is to be able to differentiate between real Tawhid and real Shirk. I think by now you've realized that the Shirk of the polytheists was based upon ascribing characteristics of divine Lordship to other than Allah ta'ala. As for Tawhid, then Surat al-Ikhlas is the very foundation of Tawhid and those who have taken other than it as foundation have deviated from the truth. May Allah ta'ala guide us all.
                    Slightly off-topic, but how do you get rulings from classical scholars so easily? If I could I'd rather refer to them rather than the contemporary ones (unless regarding contemporary issues ofc).
                    "When you want to cry, laugh.
                    If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                    Comment


                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                      The example you gave is where the messenger of Allah gave permission. You have turned what appears to be specific advice to a specific person and made it general. Did the messenger of Allah always advise his companions to make dua in this manner? (Hint: no)
                      Why follow 90% of Hadith then? You could say the same for those.
                      "When you want to cry, laugh.
                      If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                      Comment


                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Bolt View Post

                        Why follow 90% of Hadith then? You could say the same for those.
                        Example?

                        Comment


                        • #72
                          Abu 'Abdullaah

                          From where have you deducted that one requires the permission of the prophet to follow his Sunnah? To my knowledge anything the prophet recommended can be practised by us (except abrogated practices).
                          "When you want to cry, laugh.
                          If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                          Comment


                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Bolt View Post
                            Abu 'Abdullaah

                            From where have you deducted that one requires the permission of the prophet to follow his Sunnah? To my knowledge anything the prophet recommended can be practised by us (except abrogated practices).
                            Please, give an example as requested. Your question is based on a false premise.

                            Comment


                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                              Please, give an example as requested. Your question is based on a false premise.
                              I can't think of another Hadith about a specific scenario/advice to a specific person

                              Why does one need the Prophet's permission for it?
                              "When you want to cry, laugh.
                              If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

                              Comment


                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Bolt View Post

                                I can't think of another Hadith about a specific scenario/advice to a specific person...
                                Then what was your comment based on?


                                ...Why does one need the Prophet's permission for it?
                                Intercession can only take place if the intercessor agrees to intercede.

                                Comment

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