Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Any other textual proofs for this type of intercession since the hadeeth of the blind man has been debunked?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

      'Uthman bin Hunayf (radhiallahu 'anhu) said "I swear by Allāh, we hadn’t gone away, nor had we remained a long time in talk when the man returned as if he had never suffered any affliction."

      ​​​​​​Subhanallah, so here it is! The man went and acted on the advice and when he came back to the Majlis of the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) he was already healed, so the supplication was in his absence!

      Add to this: I've yet to see a single classical scholar saying that Tawassul with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) is only allowed in front of his grave!? Why would anyone even say such a thing and this while you're supplicating to Allah ta'ala using the Wasila of our noble Prophet (sallallahu b'alayhi wa sallam)!?

      I "congratulate" AN for coming up with non-existant views. All this happens because AN tries to superimpose his views on classical scholars in one way or form even if they do not agree with his whole view on Tawhid and Shirk in the very first place.
      You are such a sucker for punishment.

      In the Hadith of the Blind Man where did he ask for the intercession of the Prophet SAWS? From a distance in his SAWS absence? No. The Blind man asked for the intercession of the Prophet SAWS in his presence.

      The issue is where the intercession was asked for not where the Du'a was made.

      Ibn Qudamah did not mention intercession Tawassul in the section dealing with Du'a in general. Same with the Hadith dealing with the Hadith of the Bedouin- he made the request for intercession at the grave of the Prophet SAWS- mentioned by Ibn Qudamah ONLY in the Fasl of the visitation to the grave of the Prophet SAWS.

      If you want to present proof of Ibn Qudamah adopting the view that intercession can be asked from the Prophet SAWS in other than his presence while alive or at his grave SAWS after death, then please present proof that Ibn Qudamah presented that evidence and recommended it.

      We are not discussing my opinions or views. You were TRYING and FAILING to prove Ibn Qudamah's views. I am simply pointing out the obvious- Ibn Qudamah did not mention Tawassul except in the Fasl dealing with the visitation to the grave of the Prophet SAWS. If you believe that Ibn Qudamah saw these two Hadith as applicable elsewhere, then present that proof.

      That's the problem with innovating acts of worship- there is no established guidance from the Prophet SAWS on the matter, nor from his Companions RA, nor from the Salaf. So, people have to guess and speculate at the exact manner of performing those innovated acts. Whereas the acts of worship established and proven to be from the Prophet SAWS and the Salaf are clear and well-described with no confusion about the "where", "how", and "when".
      Last edited by AbuNajm; 11-03-21, 10:11 PM.

      Comment


      • An interesting thing about the hadeeth of the blind man. He asked rasoolullah : to make dua for hiim, and rasoolullaah instructed the blind to make dua that the intercession be accepted. Therefore, they interceded for each other. Quite remarkable if you think about it.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

          So this person tries to argue that Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) disallowed Tawassul when not being in front of the grave of our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) and this while we don't have a SINGLE statement from Imam Ibn Qudama stating that it's disallowed to use the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) as a Wasila in one's supplication when not in front of his blessed grave!
          You're confused.

          I don't have to prove anything since I'm not a claimant in this matter. All I have to do, and I have done, is show that Ibn Qudamah only mentioned intercession through the Prophet SAWS during the Fasl of visitation to his SAWS grave.

          With that, it shows very clearly that Ibn Qudamah, despite multiple opportunities throughout the thousands of pages of his book describing the legislated actions, did not mention intercession EXCEPT at the grave of the Prophet SAWS.

          If you want to prove otherwise from Ibn Qudamah, then it's very simple- show everyone where Ibn Qudamah mentioned intercession through the Prophet SAWS outside the context of visiting the grave of the Prophet SAWS.

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          How for God's sake are you claiming TAHRIM while you haven't any statement from him stating so! Is this how Fiqh works in your mind?
          This with the knowledge that the Hanabila beginning with Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH) himself regarded it correct to use the Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) as a means in one's supplication and they did not state that this is specific to the visitation anywhere!
          Let's not get ahead of ourselves. If you want to prove what Ibn Qudamah thought, then let's stick to quotes from him at this point.

          We can move on to al-Imam Ahmad after dealing with Ibn Qudamah.

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          As for the statement in his al-Mughni, then he did NOT mention the Hadith of the blind man in the context of the visitation, but rather the Athar of al-'Utbi and he himself recommended using a wording similar to it.
          The wording he mentioned is "So I've come to you, asking [my Lord] for forgiveness for my sin and seeking intercession through you unto my Lord." and this is asking for intercession (Tashaffu'), o AN!!
          Other scholars have used similar wordings like "... Intercession, o Messenger of Allah" or "... asking you to intercede for me to my Lord" and so on.
          Like I said, a Du'a containing Tawassul through the Prophet SAWS is only mentioned by Ibn Qudamah in al-Mughni, in the context of visiting the grave of the Prophet SAWS.

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          This, o AN, is literally "Shirk akbar" according to your MiAW (d. 1206 AH) and I dare you to claim otherwise! His son AiMiAW (d. 1244 AH) mentioned the wording "O Messenger of Allah, I ask for your intercession" and regarded it as "polytheism that allows the blood to be spilled" and explicitly affirmed that this is the major reason for fighting the people (Muslims!) and this all while ADMITTING that classical scholars regarded this as allowed!
          Yes it is Shirk Akbar. Again, you're jumping around too much thinking that your flailing and kicking up dust will distract us.

          One of the conditions for calling upon someone other than Allah is that they have the ability to hear and respond. Calling upon other than Allah, outside of the situation in which Ibn Taymiyyah and others explained wherein a person is addressing the presence of a person in their heart, without their ability to hear and respond, with the belief that the absent individual has the ability to hear and respond from anywhere in the world- is Shirk Akbar. It is granting an attribute which only belongs to Allah, to His creation and joining partners with Allah in calling upon someone else to provide relief and aid.

          Ibn Abd al-Wahhab was not the only or even first scholar to hold this view. There are literally hundreds of scholars who held this view.

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          Now as for his statement in his Wasiyya, then it's general when one has a need and NOT in context of the visitation, so stop mixing things up!
          He states that one should do Wudhu`, pray two Rak'at and then supplicate for one's need.
          Ibn Qudamah states the above in the first example he gives for seeking one's need. He does not mention Tawassul in it at all.

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          As for the wording found in the Hadith of the blind man (which contains Tawassul), then it's mentioned and it's found in the eldest of three copies available and this doesn't get changed just because two words before it are not good visible!
          The words before this are not visible and Ibn Qudamah only mentions a part of the Hadith which contains the Du'a. You have to admit that it is possible that the words preceding it are "if visiting the grave of the Prophet SAWS".

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          And after this it is mentioned that "It is related that the early Muslims (Salaf) used to seek to have their needs fulfilled by praying two rak’ahs and then saying: ‘O Allah, I seek opening by You and success by You. I turn to You by Your Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam)..." This is again Tawassul!
          It is Tawassul, but without addressing the Prophet SAWS with "Yaa Muhammad" like in the Du'a of the Blind Man. I would think that part would be important and clear at this point.

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          Now we know that most of you Najdi minded people don't necessarily regard the above as "Shirk akbar", (even though one of your brothers in Najdism accused Imam Ibn 'Aqil (d. 513 AH) of "Shirk" because of it and this even though it was in the context of the visitation!).
          Again, stop jumping around. It doesn't help you defend your points.

          You are making it seem to me as if you don't understand the positions and views you are trying to refute when you don't distinguish between Tawassul that includes addressing the Prophet SAWS and that which is simply asking Allah and mentioning the Prophet SAWS as a means; and you are not distinguishing between the Tawassul done in the presence of someone, even after death in the case of the Prophet SAWS which scholars have said is specific to him [Khasa'is] and in their absence.

          Those details and others mean the difference between declaring something Shirk or simply a Bid'ah or simply Haraam.

          If you don't understand the views of others, why waste so much time trying to refute them?

          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          So let's get back to the statement in al-Mughni (which contains Tashaffu') again and that one is indeed in the context of visitation: That which Imam Ibn Qudama recommended there is a reason to be slaughtered according to your IAW!
          Now you've mentioned two scholars- Ibn Aqil and Ibn Qudamah- who have only mentioned intercession in the context of visiting the grave of the Prophet SAWS.

          Yet, you're still pretending that I'm the first to invent this stipulation.

          You're not making any sense anymore.

          Let's make this simple- please provide proof that Ibn Qudamah unequivocally mentioned intercession through the Prophet SAWS with addressing him in other than the context of visiting his SAWS grave.

          If this was a well-known opinion that Ibn Qudamah held, which is what you claimed in this thread by adding him to your "list", then it should be easy to provide that proof.

          I really don't have time to follow all your attempts at distracting from this main point and responding to all your red herrings.

          I'm working on a translation of a book on Hadith sciences at the moment under the supervision of a well-respected Muhaddith. That's just after completing a translation being taught by a respected scholar of Usul al-Fiqh and Hanbali Fiqh. I'm also working on a translation of a book of Arabic grammar to be published by a group of students and scholars.

          That's what people involved in knowledge do instead of flooding forums full of laypeople raising issues that only students of knowledge and scholars can follow and respond to.

          Despite your insults and pretentious refusals to provide references to your own qualifications, I reluctantly continue this discussion only to show readers how full of nonsense you are.

          Comment


          • AN, you're repeatedly now claiming that Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) mentioned the Hadith of the blind man in the section regarding the visitation in al-Mughni.
            I rechecked the section more than once and did not see it mentioned anywhere! I even told you more than once that he mentioned the Athar of al-'Utbi and NOT the Hadith of the blind man.
            You're building your whole argument based upon this and it can not be found there!

            Now please do us both a favour and recheck the section again and see whether you could find the Hadith of the blind man mentioned there or rather only the Athar of al-'Utbi. If you find it, then simply tell me the page or post it here and if not, then please say that also clearly here.

            ​​​​​Thank you.
            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 11-03-21, 10:20 PM.

            Comment


            • There also seems a sort of misunderstanding here:

              There is a difference between supplicating to Allah ta'ala while mentioning our noble Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a Wasila and between asking our noble Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - to intercede or pray for you.

              The first is what I refer to as Tawassul (which Imam al-Subki (d. 756 AH) regarded as the first type of Tawassul), while the second is what I referred to as Tashaffu'.

              Now the Hadith of the blind man is an example for the first and Tawassul with this understanding can be done everywhere as is obvious. No one from the classical scholars restricted this type of Tawassul (meaning supplicating to Allah ta'ala and taking his Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a means to him) to a place. You're supplicating to Allah ta'ala, so it would not make sense to restrict it.

              As for the Athar of al-'Utbi or that of Malik al-Dar, then it's an example for what I called as Tashaffu' and it's obvious that this is done during the visitation.

              (The narration of Malik al-Dar falls under the second type of Tawassul (because the wording used doesn't say “intercede for me“, but rather "pray for me", which is the same in meaning in reality) according to Imam al-Subki, but this type is basically the same as Tashaffu' as he also clarified elsewhere.)

              ​​​​​​Please understand this before going on.
              Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 11-03-21, 10:32 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                ...(meaning supplicating to Allah ta'ala and taking his Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a means to him)...
                What does this mean exactly?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                  Yes it is Shirk Akbar. Again, you're jumping around too much thinking that your flailing and kicking up dust will distract us.
                  First of all: The Najdis regarded it as "Shirk akbar" to ask for intercession in front of a grave or elsewhere. Do you agree with them?

                  This is why the son of IAW mentioned that there are classical scholars who allowed this (meaning in the context of the visitation) and that they are "excused because our call had not reached them", but as for the people of their own time, then "our call has reached them, so they deserve to be faught for remaining upon this polytheism".

                  This means that what was recommended by Imam Ibn Qudama and other scholars before and after him is "Shirk akbar" to them! Do you even get this?

                  Why? Because they (Najdis) have a weird mindset regarding intercession and for them asking for intercession is something beyond the capability of a creation and therefore automatically Shirk!

                  But the Islamic understanding differs from this and differentiates between an acceptable and a non-acceptable one.
                  ​​​​

                  ​​​​​I would really advice you two read these two posts to have better understanding what the Shirki type of intercession in reality is and how it differs from the Islamic one:

                  - Is the simple asking for intercession condemned in the Qur`an as polytheism? (part 1)
                  - Is the simple asking for intercession condemned in the Qur`an as polytheism? (part 2)
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 11-03-21, 11:29 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                    One of the conditions for calling upon someone other than Allah is that they have the ability to hear and respond. Calling upon other than Allah, outside of the situation in which Ibn Taymiyyah and others explained wherein a person is addressing the presence of a person in their heart, without their ability to hear and respond, with the belief that the absent individual has the ability to hear and respond from anywhere in the world- is Shirk Akbar. It is granting an attribute which only belongs to Allah, to His creation and joining partners with Allah in calling upon someone else to provide relief and aid.

                    Ibn Abd al-Wahhab was not the only or even first scholar to hold this view. There are literally hundreds of scholars who held this view.
                    Let us please put here Imam Ibn Taymiyya's view aside, because his position regarding Tawassul and Tashaffu' was an abnormal one (while he had a point regarding some types of Istighatha) and he neither agreed with my position nor with yours.
                    He seems however to have retracted his position on Tawassul and Tashaffu' and I can even bring quotes regarding this from his work and from that of his students.
                    By the way: The Hanabila that IAW (d. 1206 AH) was making Takfir of all respected Ibn Taymiyya and the 'Allama Sulayman bin 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1208 AH) explicitly stated that he agreed with the Shaykh regarding calling Istighatha as Shirk, but clarified that it's lesser one and not the one which puts one out of the religion (except in some rare cases).

                    Now as for the ability of hearing and being able to respond: Muslims believe that Allah ta'ala alone is All-Hearing and they believe that there is no might and power except with Allah ta'ala.
                    ​​​
                    Now if a person says "Ya Rasulallah" from another place than the Prophetic mosque while intending Tawassul (remember that his miracles are going on!) or simply addressing him to send peace upon him (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) or what is similar to that (like in the Tashahhud), then you can't accuse him of ascring any divine attribute to other than Allah ta'ala! He has done nothing wrong.

                    But if he's for example intending to ask him (sallallahu' alayhi wa sallam) to pray for him or to intercede for him, then this should usually be done during the visitation.
                    But even if it's done outside the visitation, you can't claim him to have fallen into polytheism, because the person believes that this call reaches him (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) through a manner that Allah ta'ala knows. And the Prophet (sallallahu' alayhi wa sallam) does actually know the state of his Umma and he does pray for them.

                    Note here that I'm not even supporting what some ignorant people do in some prohibited forms of seeking aid (where they call upon someone in the manner they call upon their Lord), but even then Takfir is not done, rather the intention and beliefs are taken into consideration.
                    This should be clear from my very first post (meaning: the opening post).

                    Whatever the case is, what IAW did and his Takfir upon senior Hanbali scholars (and other than them) and upon whole townships is something inexcusable and there is no justification for it! No proper scholar would have done this and the scholars even explained this to him!
                    Why is it so difficult to understand this?



                    ​​​​​

                    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 11-03-21, 11:22 PM.

                    Comment


                    • as e all kno and accept theres only a handufl of students of knowledge actually on this forum ith proper qualifications as theyve studied islam properly,
                      so i would be interested i what Darul Ilm @abu musab ould have to say about this topic but unfortunately he hardly posts these days tbh

                      Comment


                      • Abu Najm, what's the ruling on the act of making the dua but not at the grave of the Prophet (SAW)?

                        Comment


                        • AN, let's make the issue easier:

                          In this thread I made basically two major points and they are:
                          - Tawassul with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) in one's supplication to one's Lord jalla jalaluhu is allowed according to the Jumhur of the classical scholars.*
                          - Asking our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) for intercession in the context of the visitation is something good according to the Jumhur of the classical scholars.


                          (*Since the first point mentioned means that one is supplicating to Allah ta'ala and mentioning our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) as a Wasila (means) to Him, it obviously is not restricted to a place.)

                          I will add another point here (this due to your accusations of "grave worship"):
                          - Visiting the grave of our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) is something good according to the Jumhur of the classical scholars.



                          Now as for Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) :
                          He is in agreement with the Jumhur in all three points mentioned.
                          - As for Tawassul, then the proof is his statement in his Wasiyya. He said that when one needs something, one should do Wudhu`, pray two Rak'at and then supplicate. The first supplication he mentioned was without Tawassul. The second one contained Tawassul. Thereafter he mentioned what the Salaf al-salih used to do and he mentioned them doing Tawassul. This is obviously not restricted to a place.
                          - As for asking for intercession (Tashaffu') from our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) in the context of the visitation, then he supported this too as is proven from his al-Mughni.
                          - And as for the visitation itself, then he started the very section in his al-Mughni by stating that it's something desirable or recommended.

                          Which of the above points are you putting into question and based upon which proofs?
                          Let's make it short and tackle the issues one by one insha`Allah.

                          I would also welcome it, if we both would go back to a normal tone and leave this harsh tone with each other.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Fais View Post
                            Abu Najm, what's the ruling on the act of making the dua but not at the grave of the Prophet (SAW)?
                            I don't believe for a second that you've asked this of me out of respect or genuine interest in what I have to say, given your sarcasm and offensive comments towards me in this very thread [a la "Saint Abu Najm"].

                            However, I will respond for the benefit of readers who, at the very least, may be genuinely interested in the answer:

                            If the Du'a is directed TO the person of the Prophet SAWS, for example, "Yaa Muhammad", then that is Istighaathah [even if the wording resembles Tawassul] and none of the books of Fiqh recommend this or declare it permissible in any circumstances.

                            Here is what Ibn Taymiyyah says about Du'a to the Prophet SAWS or anyone else:

                            قال شيخ الإسلام ابن تيمية رحمه الله في كتاب الاستغاثة (2/731) : "فإنا بعد معرفة ما جاء به الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم، نعلم بالضرورة أنه لم يشرع لأمته أن تدعو أحداً من الأموات، لا الأنبياء ولا الصالحين ولا غيرهم، لا بلفظ الاستغاثة ولا بغيرها، ولا بلفظ الاستعاذة ولا بغيرها، كما أنه لم يشرع لأمته السجود لميت ولا لغير ميت ونحو ذلك بل نعلم أنه نهى عن كل هذه الأمور
                            وأن ذلك من الشرك الذي حرمه الله ورسوله، لكن لغلبة الجهل، وقلّة العلم بآثار الرسالة في كثير من المتأخرين، لم يكن تكفيرهم بذلك حتى يتبين لهم ما جاء به الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم، مما يخالفه

                            "Thus, after knowledge of what the Messenger SAWS came with, we know by necessity that he did not legislate for his Ummah to supplicate to anyone from among the deceased- not Prophets, nor the righteous or anyone else- not with terms of seeking relief/aid [Istighaathah], or other than that; not with terms of seeking refuge [Isti'adhah], or other than that; just as he did not legislate for his Ummah prostration to the deceased or other than the deceased and similar to that. Rather, we know that he prohibited all of these matters; and [we know] that that is from the Shirk which Allah and His Messenger prohibited. However, due to the predominance of ignorance and the paucity of knowledge in the traces of the Message among the majority of later people, there is no Takfeer of them for that until what the Messenger SAWS came with is made clear to them from what contradicts it..."

                            Al-Istighaathah 2/731

                            There is no doubt that there exists a difference of opinion about Tawassul in the form of asking Allah "by the honor/love/obedience of the Prophet SAWS" and asking for his SAWS intercession in the Dunya. There is a proper way to understand the asking through the Prophet SAWS [Tawassul] and asking for his intercession. Again, all the scholars who have recommended asking for his SAWS intercession have mentioned it in the context of visiting the grave of the Prophet SAWS. I have yet to see any proof of an explicit recommendation of asking the Prophet's intercession using the formula mentioned in the report of al-Utbi outside the context of visiting the grave of the Prophet SAWS.

                            It is that difference of opinion over which there should be no Takfeer- and I do not believe it exists- not among Ibn Taymiyyah or IAW.

                            As for asking Allah "by XYZ of the Prophet SAWS", then that formula does not appear restricted to visiting the grave of the Prophet SAWS, however, the report from Uthma bin Hunayf does contain, along with a wording that indicates Tawassul, the wording "Yaa Muhammad". And that needs to be understood correctly so that Shirk does not enter into the equation.

                            When Tawassul is turned into Istighaathah and the wording of "Yaa Muhammad" is turned into an address directly to the person of the Prophet SAWS or a deceased/absent righteous person, then we are discussing Shirk and no difference of opinion is possible.

                            Also note:

                            The Du'a which includes the words "by Your Prophet" is see by some as a form of swearing by the creation, which is Haraam according to the Malikis and Hanbalis, and Makruh according to the Shafi'ees and Hanafis. Depending on the circumstances, it could also be Kufr, as some scholars have explained [not just Ibn Taymiyyah and IAW], due to the Hadith reported by al-Hakim "Whoever swears by other than Allah has disbelieved" and in other transmission "has committed Shirk" [see Tuhfat al-Muhtaj by al-Haytami 10/4]. Note: Just because I quoted al-Haytami here, that doesn't mean the Du'a of Tawassul is equated with Kufr/Shirk according to him.

                            So, there are several nuances on this subject and several different views among the scholars. It seems Abu Sulayman is taking advantage of this confusion in order to push a simplistic view of the entire issue as if there was consensus and a few outliers who differed with that, namely in the persons of Ibn Taymiyyah and IAW. That is far from the truth.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                              AN, let's make the issue easier:

                              In this thread I made basically two major points and they are:
                              - Tawassul with our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) in one's supplication to one's Lord jalla jalaluhu is allowed according to the Jumhur of the classical scholars.*
                              - Asking our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) for intercession in the context of the visitation is something good according to the Jumhur of the classical scholars.


                              (*Since the first point mentioned means that one is supplicating to Allah ta'ala and mentioning our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) as a Wasila (means) to Him, it obviously is not restricted to a place.)

                              I will add another point here (this due to your accusations of "grave worship"):
                              - Visiting the grave of our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) is something good according to the Jumhur of the classical scholars.



                              Now as for Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) :
                              He is in agreement with the Jumhur in all three points mentioned.
                              - As for Tawassul, then the proof is his statement in his Wasiyya. He said that when one needs something, one should do Wudhu`, pray two Rak'at and then supplicate. The first supplication he mentioned was without Tawassul. The second one contained Tawassul. Thereafter he mentioned what the Salaf al-salih used to do and he mentioned them doing Tawassul. This is obviously not restricted to a place.
                              - As for asking for intercession (Tashaffu') from our noble Prophet (sallallahu 'alyayhi wa sallam) in the context of the visitation, then he supported this too as is proven from his al-Mughni.
                              - And as for the visitation itself, then he started the very section in his al-Mughni by stating that it's something desirable or recommended.

                              Which of the above points are you putting into question and based upon which proofs?
                              Let's make it short and tackle the issues one by one insha`Allah.

                              I would also welcome it, if we both would go back to a normal tone and leave this harsh tone with each other.
                              I am in 100% agreement with the above, In Sha' Allah. And I accept that I may have misunderstood some points you were making.

                              However, I disagree that the above were the only "major points" you were making. I also don't agree that Ibn Taymiyyah and/or IAW made Takfeer over the above points [if that is a point you are insisting on].

                              Also, I believe there are details in the forms of Tawassul mentioned wherein we do disagree, for example- the report of Uthman bin Hunayf contains both Tawassul [the kind over which there is Khilaaf- "by the Prophet SAWS"] and potential Istighaathah ["Yaa Muhammad"]. If understood improperly, these forms of Tawassul and the perceived Istighaathah can become matters of Shirk. It is somewhere in there that things get muddled and laypeople lose their way, turning Tawassul into Istighaathah.

                              I welcome a return to civility on these matters because it's important that readers understand the different acceptable points of view over which no Takfeer should take place EVEN IF it does between those who are ignorant on both "sides", i.e. Sufis and "Salafis".
                              Last edited by AbuNajm; 12-03-21, 10:27 AM.

                              Comment


                              • Using the messenger of Allah as a means to get closer to Allah, as I understand it, is about following the Sunnah i.e. tawassul through one’s deeds.

                                What does it mean when making dua other than making dua for rasoolullah e.g. reciting durood?

                                This has never been clear as there is no dua mentioned in the Sunnah that I’m aware of except for the hadeeth of the blind man which clearly doesn’t apply to anyone else. This hadeeth is always cited as a major proof but surely there is something else as I find it hard to believe that it all hangs on this one narration.

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X