Announcement

**Abu Sulayman** · 01-10-20, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by Bolt View Post

1) They do not hear the Du'aa’ (supplication), and even if they hear it, they cannot respond to it and achieve what one desires.

{And those whom you invoke other than Him do not possess [as much as] the membrane of a date seed. If you invoke them, they do not hear your supplication; and if they heard, they would not respond to you. And on the Day of Resurrection they will deny your association. And none can inform you like [one] Acquainted [with all matters].} (35:13-14)

What do you say about this?

Is the simple asking for intercession condemned in the Qur`an as polytheism? (part 1)

{ يُولِجُ ٱلْلَّيْلَ فِي ٱلنَّهَارِ وَيُولِجُ ٱلنَّهَارَ فِي ٱلْلَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ ٱلشَّمْسَ وَٱلْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ذَلِكُمُ ٱللَّهُ رَبُّكُمْ لَهُ ٱلْمُلْكُ وَٱلَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ مَا يَمْلِكُونَ مِن قِطْمِيرٍ }
{ إِن تَدْعُوهُمْ لاَ يَسْمَعُواْ دُعَآءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُواْ مَا ٱسْتَجَابُواْ لَكُمْ وَيَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَامَةِ يَكْفُرُونَ بِشِرْكِـكُمْ وَلاَ يُنَبِّئُكَ مِثْلُ خَبِيرٍ }

{ He maketh the night to pass into the day and He maketh the day to pass into the night. He hath subdued the sun and moon to service. Each runneth unto an appointed term. Such is Allah, your Lord; His is the Sovereignty; and those unto whom ye pray instead of Him own not so much as the white spot on a date-stone. }
{ If ye pray unto them they hear not your prayer, and if they heard they could not grant it you. On the Day of Resurrection they will disown association with you. None can inform you like Him Who is Aware. }

[35:13-14]

Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) stated in his Tafsir of the Aya 35:13 the following:

وقوله: { لَهُ الـمُلْكُ } يقول تعالـى ذكره: له الـملك التامّ الذي لا شيء إلاَّ وهو فـي ملُكه وسلطانه. وقوله { وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِهِ ما يَـمْلِكُونَ مِنْ قِطْمِيرٍ } يقول تعالـى ذكره: والذين تعبدون أيها الناس من دون ربكم الذي هذه الصفة التـي ذكرها فـي هذه الآيات الذي له الـمُلك الكامل، الذي لا يُشبهه ملك، صفته { ما يَـمْلِكُونَ مِنْ قِطْمِيرٍ } يقول: ما يـملكون قِشْر نواة فما فوقها

With His statement { His is the Sovereignty } [Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says: His is the complete Sovereignty such that there is nothing except that it is in under His Sovereignty and Dominion. As for His Statement { and those unto whom ye pray instead of Him own not so much as the white spot on a date-stone }, then [Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says [by it]: O people, those whom you WORSHIP instead of your Lord - who is upon the attributes [of absolute perfection as] mentioned in the Ayat and for Whom is the complete Sovereignty - ... { own not so much as the white spot on a date-stone } He states [by this]: They do own as much as the [thin] coverage of a [date-]stone, so what about what is above that?
- end of quote -

And in his Tafsir of the Aya 35:14:

قوله: { إنْ تَدْعُوهُمْ لا يَسْمَعُوا دُعاءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا ما اسْتَـجابُوا لَكُمْ } يقول تعالـى ذكره: إن تدعوا أيها الناس هؤلاء الآلهة التـي تعبدونها من دون الله لا يسمعوا دعاءكم، لأنها جماد لا تفهم عنكم ما تقولون { وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا ما اسْتَـجابُوا لَكُمْ } يقول: ولو سمعوا دعاءكم إياهم، وفهموا عنكم أنها قولكم، بأن جُعل لهم سمع يسمعون به، ما استـجابوا لكم، لأنها لـيست ناطقة، ولـيس كلّ سامع قولاً متـيسِّراً له الـجواب عنه. يقول تعالـى ذكره للـمشركين به الآلهة والأوثان: فكيف تعبدون من دون الله من هذه صفته، وهو لا نفع لكم عنده، ولا قُدرة له علـى ضرّكم، وتَدَعون عبـادة الذي بـيده نفعكم وضرّكم، وهو الذي خـلقكم وأنعم علـيكم. وبنـحو الذي قلنا فـي ذلك قال أهل التأويـل

With His statement { If ye pray unto them they hear not your prayer, and if they heard they could not grant it you } [Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says: O people, if you pray to these [false] gods - which you worship instead of Allah - they will not hear your prayers, because they are inanimate things (i.e. simply stones!) which can not comprehend what you're saying to them. { And if they heard they could not grant it you } He says [with this]: Even if they would hear your prayers towards them and understood your statements - such that they would have been given a hearing with which they hear -, they still would not be able to respond to you, because they're not speaking and not every thing that hears a simple statement is able to respond to it.
[Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says to these polytheists who are ascribing to him [false] gods and idols: How then do you worship instead of Allah those [idols] whose attributes are like this (i.e. inanimate and unable to hear or respond to your calls!) and they possess no benefit for you, nor are they able to harm you?! And then you leave the worship of the One in whose authority your benefit and harm lies, and the One who has created you and sent his favors upon you!
The like of what we stated was also stated by the people of interpretation (meaning: the scholars, who explain the Qur`an).
- end of quote -

So there are several points here:
- That { and those unto whom ye pray instead of Him } is intended as worship ('Ibada) in general (!) such that it includes calling out in worship and other forms of worship, but excludes a simple call (Nida`) which is not intended as worship. This is by the way clearly understood in the Arabic language!
- That these idols are simply inanimate stones, who can not hear or respond to one's prayers and that they do not possess the slightest benefit or harm. So how can these idols be gods besides or instead of Allah ta'ala?!
- That real benefit and harm is in the power of Allah ta'ala alone without any partners whatsoever and that therefore He alone is deserving of all worship.

Question: How does this Aya refer to Muslims asking the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - to supplicate for them? It obviously does not refer to them since they do not affirm any real influence for other than Allah ta'ala, nor do they you worship idols, nor do they ascribe any characteristics of divine Lordship to the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam!
In fact asking someone to pray for you indicates that you're not regarding him as you Lord and God! This is clearly and obviously understood!

Part 2 - which will be regarding the 3rd Aya of Surat al-Zumar - shall follow soon insha`Allah...

**Bolt** · 01-10-20, 04:03 PM

Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

Is the simple asking for intercession condemned in the Qur`an as polytheism? (part 1)

{ يُولِجُ ٱلْلَّيْلَ فِي ٱلنَّهَارِ وَيُولِجُ ٱلنَّهَارَ فِي ٱلْلَّيْلِ وَسَخَّرَ ٱلشَّمْسَ وَٱلْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ يَجْرِي لأَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى ذَلِكُمُ ٱللَّهُ رَبُّكُمْ لَهُ ٱلْمُلْكُ وَٱلَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ مَا يَمْلِكُونَ مِن قِطْمِيرٍ }
{ إِن تَدْعُوهُمْ لاَ يَسْمَعُواْ دُعَآءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُواْ مَا ٱسْتَجَابُواْ لَكُمْ وَيَوْمَ ٱلْقِيَامَةِ يَكْفُرُونَ بِشِرْكِـكُمْ وَلاَ يُنَبِّئُكَ مِثْلُ خَبِيرٍ }

{ He maketh the night to pass into the day and He maketh the day to pass into the night. He hath subdued the sun and moon to service. Each runneth unto an appointed term. Such is Allah, your Lord; His is the Sovereignty; and those unto whom ye pray instead of Him own not so much as the white spot on a date-stone. }
{ If ye pray unto them they hear not your prayer, and if they heard they could not grant it you. On the Day of Resurrection they will disown association with you. None can inform you like Him Who is Aware. }

[35:13-14]

Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) stated in his Tafsir of the Aya 35:13 the following:

وقوله: { لَهُ الـمُلْكُ } يقول تعالـى ذكره: له الـملك التامّ الذي لا شيء إلاَّ وهو فـي ملُكه وسلطانه. وقوله { وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِهِ ما يَـمْلِكُونَ مِنْ قِطْمِيرٍ } يقول تعالـى ذكره: والذين تعبدون أيها الناس من دون ربكم الذي هذه الصفة التـي ذكرها فـي هذه الآيات الذي له الـمُلك الكامل، الذي لا يُشبهه ملك، صفته { ما يَـمْلِكُونَ مِنْ قِطْمِيرٍ } يقول: ما يـملكون قِشْر نواة فما فوقها

With His statement { His is the Sovereignty } [Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says: His is the complete Sovereignty such that there is nothing except that it is in under His Sovereignty and Dominion. As for His Statement { and those unto whom ye pray instead of Him own not so much as the white spot on a date-stone }, then [Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says [by it]: O people, those whom you WORSHIP instead of your Lord - who is upon the attributes [of absolute perfection as] mentioned in the Ayat and for Whom is the complete Sovereignty - ... { own not so much as the white spot on a date-stone } He states [by this]: They do own as much as the [thin] coverage of a [date-]stone, so what about what is above that?
- end of quote -

And in his Tafsir of the Aya 35:14:

قوله: { إنْ تَدْعُوهُمْ لا يَسْمَعُوا دُعاءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا ما اسْتَـجابُوا لَكُمْ } يقول تعالـى ذكره: إن تدعوا أيها الناس هؤلاء الآلهة التـي تعبدونها من دون الله لا يسمعوا دعاءكم، لأنها جماد لا تفهم عنكم ما تقولون { وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا ما اسْتَـجابُوا لَكُمْ } يقول: ولو سمعوا دعاءكم إياهم، وفهموا عنكم أنها قولكم، بأن جُعل لهم سمع يسمعون به، ما استـجابوا لكم، لأنها لـيست ناطقة، ولـيس كلّ سامع قولاً متـيسِّراً له الـجواب عنه. يقول تعالـى ذكره للـمشركين به الآلهة والأوثان: فكيف تعبدون من دون الله من هذه صفته، وهو لا نفع لكم عنده، ولا قُدرة له علـى ضرّكم، وتَدَعون عبـادة الذي بـيده نفعكم وضرّكم، وهو الذي خـلقكم وأنعم علـيكم. وبنـحو الذي قلنا فـي ذلك قال أهل التأويـل

With His statement { If ye pray unto them they hear not your prayer, and if they heard they could not grant it you } [Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says: O people, if you pray to these [false] gods - which you worship instead of Allah - they will not hear your prayers, because they are inanimate things (i.e. simply stones!) which can not comprehend what you're saying to them. { And if they heard they could not grant it you } He says [with this]: Even if they would hear your prayers towards them and understood your statements - such that they would have been given a hearing with which they hear -, they still would not be able to respond to you, because they're not speaking and not every thing that hears a simple statement is able to respond to it.
[Allah] - Exalted be his remembrance - says to these polytheists who are ascribing to him [false] gods and idols: How then do you worship instead of Allah those [idols] whose attributes are like this (i.e. inanimate and unable to hear or respond to your calls!) and they possess no benefit for you, nor are they able to harm you?! And then you leave the worship of the One in whose authority your benefit and harm lies, and the One who has created you and sent his favors upon you!
The like of what we stated was also stated by the people of interpretation (meaning: the scholars, who explain the Qur`an).
- end of quote -

So there are several points here:
- That { and those unto whom ye pray instead of Him } is intended as worship ('Ibada) in general (!) such that it includes calling out in worship and other forms of worship, but excludes a simple call (Nida`) which is not intended as worship. This is by the way clearly understood in the Arabic language!
- That these idols are simply inanimate stones, who can not hear or respond to one's prayers and that they do not possess the slightest benefit or harm. So how can these idols be gods besides or instead of Allah ta'ala?!
- That real benefit and harm is in the power of Allah ta'ala alone without any partners whatsoever and that therefore He alone is deserving of all worship.

Question: How does this Aya refer to Muslims asking the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - to supplicate for them? It obviously does not refer to them since they do not affirm any real influence for other than Allah ta'ala, nor do they you worship idols, nor do they ascribe any characteristics of divine Lordship to the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam!
In fact asking someone to pray for you indicates that you're not regarding him as you Lord and God! This is clearly and obviously understood!

Part 2 - which will be regarding the 3rd Aya of Surat al-Zumar - shall follow soon insha`Allah...

Makes sense.
Looking at the wording again, I noticed the effect of it saying those whom you *pray to*. With regards to tawassul, one isn't praying to the righteous/prophets, but to Allah *through* them. Which is basically the same as what you have explained.

2) If this would be permissible then one could also call upon the angels and jinns of Allah - which is known to be shirk. What about this?

I'm assuming that, like what has been said above, if one prays *to* them i.e. worships them, that would constitute shirk for sure.

But, can you comments on the case of one praying *through* them, like the manner of tawassul? I'd be inclined to consider it shirk as well due to my previous knowledge but not sure anymore.

You can reply after you're done with the 3rd ayah of al-zumar.

**Abu Sulayman** · 02-10-20, 05:01 PM

Is the simple asking for intercession condemned in the Qur`an as polytheism? (part 2)

{ تَنزِيلُ ٱلْكِتَابِ مِنَ ٱللَّهِ ٱلْعَزِيزِ ٱلْحَكِيمِ }
{ إِنَّآ أَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَابَ بِٱلْحَقِّ فَٱعْبُدِ ٱللَّهَ مُخْلِصاً لَّهُ ٱلدِّينَ }
{ أَلاَ لِلَّهِ ٱلدِّينُ ٱلْخَالِصُ وَٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّخَذُواْ مِن دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَآءَ مَا نَعْبُدُهُمْ إِلاَّ لِيُقَرِّبُونَآ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ زُلْفَىۤ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ يَحْكُمُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِي مَا هُمْ فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونَ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي مَنْ هُوَ كَاذِبٌ كَـفَّارٌ }
{ لَّوْ أَرَادَ ٱللَّهُ أَن يَتَّخِذَ وَلَداً لاَّصْطَفَىٰ مِمَّا يَخْلُقُ مَا يَشَآءُ سُبْحَانَهُ هُوَ ٱللَّهُ ٱلْوَاحِدُ ٱلْقَهَّارُ }

{ The revelation of the Book is from Allah, the Most Honourable, the Wise. }
{ We have indeed divinely revealed the Book to you with the truth, therefore worship Allah, as His sincere bondman. }
{ Pay heed! Worship is for Allah only; and those who have taken others as their supporters beside Him say; “We worship them only so that they get us closer to Allah”; Allah will surely judge between them regarding the matter in which they dispute; indeed Allah does not guide one who is a big liar, extremely ungrateful. }
{ Were Allah to create a son for Himself, He would have chosen any one from His creation! Purity is to Him! He is Allah, the One, the All Dominant. }

[39:1-4]

The 3rd Aya of Surat al-Zumar is used by Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) and his followers to declare the Muslims seeking intercession with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - unjustly as "polytheists", while it should be obvious that the Aya can not apply to Muslims.

So let's look at the Aya 39:3 passage by passage:

- { Pay heed! Worship is for Allah only; }

Know - may Allah have mercy upon you - that the pure religion - and all worship - being for Allah ta'ala alone was rejected by the pagans, because they could not imagine how there could exist one God alone without any partners - as is reported in the noble Qur`an regarding them:

{ وَعَجِبُوۤاْ أَن جَآءَهُم مٌّنذِرٌ مِّنْهُمْ وَقَالَ ٱلْكَافِرُونَ هَـٰذَا سَاحِرٌ كَذَّابٌ }
{ أَجَعَلَ ٱلآلِهَةَ إِلَـٰهاً وَاحِداً إِنَّ هَـٰذَا لَشَيْءٌ عُجَابٌ }

{ And they were surprised that a Herald of Warning came to them from among themselves; and the disbelievers said, “He is a magician, a great liar!” }
{ “Has he made all the Gods into One God? This is really something very strange!” }

[38:4-5]

Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) stated in his Tafsir regarding the Aya 38:5:

وقوله: { أجَعَلَ الآلِهَةَ إِلهاً وَاحِداً } يقول: وقال هؤلاء الكافرون الذين قالوا: مـحمد ساحر كذّاب: أجعل مـحمد الـمعبودات كلها واحداً، يسمع دعاءنا جميعنا، ويعلـم عبـادة كل عابد عبدَه منا { إنَّ هَذَا لَشَيْءٌ عُجابٌ }

With His [mentioning of their] statement { “Has he made all the Gods into One God?” } [Allah] is saying: These disbelievers - who claimed that "Muhammad is a magician, a liar" - said:
Has Muhammad turned all worshipped beings / things into One [God], who hears all our supplications and knows the worship of all his worshippers? { This is really something very strange! }.
- end of the quote -

Imam al-Razi (d. 606 AH) stated in the Tafsir of the same Aya:

وقالوا: { أَجَعَلَ ٱلآلِهَةَ إِلَـٰهاً وٰحِداً وَأَنَّ هَـٰذَا لَشَيْء عُجَابٌ } أي بليغ في التعجب وأقول منشأ التعجب من وجهين الأول: هو أن القوم ما كانوا من أصحاب النظر والاستدلال بل كانت أوهامهم تابعة للمحسوسات فلما وجدوا في الشاهد أن الفاعل الواحد لا تفي قدرته وعلمه بحفظ الخلق العظيم قاسوا الغائب على الشاهد، فقالوا: لا بد في حفظ هذا العالم الكثير من آلهة كثيرة يتكفل كل واحد منهم بحفظ نوع آخر

And they said: { “Has he made all the Gods into One God? This is really something very strange!” } and this shows astonishment and I say that the reason for [their] astonishment is from two sides:
The first one: That these people were not from the people of contemplation and reasoning, rather their imagination / perception was [only] bound to that which can be perceived by ones senses. That's why when they saw that in the Shahid (present; that which we perceive) the power and knowledge of one actor / doer [alone] does not suffice to preserve this big creation / world they made an analogy from the Shahid (present) to the Gha`ib (absent; that which we don't perceive); so they said: For the preservation of this diverse world it's necessary that many gods exist and everyone of them takes care of a different kind [of creation].
- end of the quote -

- { and those who have taken others as their supporters beside Him say; }

The expression of taking supporters / protectors (Awliya`) besides Allah is mentioned a lot in the Qur`an al-karim, so its important to understand what this expression indicates and means.
Its singular form is Wali as found in the following Aya:

{ قُلْ أَغَيْرَ ٱللَّهِ أَتَّخِذُ وَلِيّاً فَاطِرِ ٱلسَّمَٰوَٰتِ وَٱلأَرْضِ وَهُوَ يُطْعِمُ وَلاَ يُطْعَمُ قُلْ إِنِّيۤ أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أَكُونَ أَوَّلَ مَنْ أَسْلَمَ وَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكَينَ }

{ Say, “Shall I choose as a supporter someone other than Allah, Who is the Originator of the heavens and the earth and Who feeds and does not need to eat?” Say, “I have been ordered to be the first to submit myself (to Him), and O people, do not be of the polytheists.” }

[6:14]

Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) stated in his Tafsir of the Aya 6:14:

حدثني محمد بن الحسين، قال: ثنا أحمد بن المفضل، قال: ثنا أسباط، عن السديّ: { قُلْ أغَيْرُ اللَّهِ أتَّخِذُ وَلِيًّا } قال: أما الوليّ: فالذي يتولونه ويقرون له بالربوبية

Muhammad bin al-Husayn reported to me and said: Ahmad bin al-Mufadhdhal narrated and said: Asbat narrated from al-Suddi:
[Regarding the Ayah] { Say, “Shall I choose as a supporter / protector someone other than Allah } [6:14] he said: As for [the meaning of] al-Wali (protector / supporter): He's the one whom they take [as such] and affirm lordship (Rububiyya) (!!!) for him.
- end of quote -

- { “We worship them only so that they get us closer to Allah”; }

Note that this statement contains a clear affirmation of WORSHIPPING other than Allah ta'ala! It also contains the CLAIM of intending to get closer to Allah, so this is how it is connected to the issue of intercession.

In the book of Allah ta'ala there is differentiation between two types of intercession:
- An accepted intercession: This happens by the permission / command of Allah ta'ala such that it falls under the complete knowledge and power of Allah ta'ala and this is what the Muslims believe in. (Tawassul falls under this category!)
- A rejected intercession: This happens without the need for the permission / command of Allah ta'ala (or even in spite it going against His permission!), such that it does not fall under the complete knowledge and power of Allah ta'ala - as is the belief and claim of the polytheists! - and this is open polytheism and disbelief!

For this reason we find a lot of Ayat where the issue of intercession (Shafa'a) is always mentioned together with the issue of permission (Idhn) like in the Ayat 2:255, 10:3, 20:109 and 34:23.
Allah ta'ala clarified that that the issue is not as the pagans assume:

{ وَأَنذِرْهُمْ يَوْمَ ٱلأَزِفَةِ إِذِ ٱلْقُلُوبُ لَدَى ٱلْحَنَاجِرِ كَاظِمِينَ مَا لِلظَّالِمِينَ مِنْ حَمِيمٍ وَلاَ شَفِيعٍ يُطَاعُ }

{ And warn them of the day of impending calamity, when hearts will rise up to the throats filled with grief; and the disbelievers will have neither any friend nor any intercessor who will be obeyed. }

[40:18]

Imam al-Razi (d. 606 AH) stated in the Tafsir of the Aya 40:18:

أجاب أصحابنا عن السؤال الأول فقالوا إن القوم كانوا يقولون في الأصنام إنها شفعاؤنا عند الله وكانوا يقولون إنها تشفع لنا عند الله من غير حاجة فيه إلى إذن الله، ولهذا السبب رد الله تعالى عليهم ذلك بقوله { مَن ذَا ٱلَّذِى يَشْفَعُ عِندَهُ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ } [البقرة: 255] فهذا يدل على أن القوم اعتقدوا أنه يجب على الله إجابة الأصنام في تلك الشفاعة، وهذا نوع طاعة، فالله تعالى نفى تلك الطاعة بقوله { مَا لِلظَّـٰلِمِينَ مِنْ حَمِيمٍ وَلاَ شَفِيعٍ يُطَاعُ

Our Companions responded to the first question, so they said: These people were saying regarding the idols "they're our intercessors in front of Allah" and they were saying "they intercede for us in front of Allah without there being a need for the permission of Allah". Because of this Allah ta'ala responded to them with his saying { who is he that can intercede with Him except by His command? } [2:255]. This indicates that these people believed that it's obligatory upon Allah to respond to the idols regarding the intercession, and this is a kind of obedience. So Allah rejected this obedience with his saying: { and the disbelievers will have neither any friend nor any intercessor who will be obeyed. }
- end of quote -

- { Allah will surely judge between them regarding the matter in which they dispute; }

According to Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) the dispute between the polytheists from one side and the Muslims from the other side was NOT about affirming Lordship alone and completely for Allah ta'ala. This is why he claimed the following in his Kashf al-Shubuhat:

فإن قال: هؤلاء الآيات نزلت فيمن يعبد الأصنام، كيف تجعلون الصالحين مثل الأصنام أم كيف تجعلون الأنبياء أصنامًا؟ فجاوبه بما تقدم فإنه إذا أقر أن الكفار يشهدون بالربوبية كلها لله، وأنهم ما أرادوا ممن قصدوا إلا الشفاعة

So if it is said: These verses were sent down regarding the woshippers of idols; how do you make the righteous (Salihin) like the idols or how do you make the Prophets (Anbiya`) like idols?
Then the answer is as already mentioned: If it is established that the disbelievers testified lordship (Rububiyya) completely for Allah and that they did not intend from those whom they turned to except their intercession...
- end of quote -

And it has been already established from what has followed that the pagans would not accept the Lordship of Allah ta'ala completely and that they would affirm Lordship for other than Allah ta'ala.

There is a thread named as "Wahhabi claim: Belief in Rububiyya (lordship) of Allah: Muslims = Pagans", where the following issues are established by Qur`anic Ayat (and also scholarly explanations):
- the pagans couldn't imagine how one God alone could exist
- the pagans had no conviction regarding Allah and whether He created everything and were ready to curse Allah if someone cursed their false gods and assigned a bigger portion for their false gods than for Allah and ascribed to Allah what they did not accept for themselves (i.e. daughters) and disbelieved in the resurrection, because they doubted the power of Allah
- the pagans doubted the knowledge of Allah and that He's All-hearing
- the pagans believed that Allah needs help to preserve and control the universe
- the pagans believed in the existence of gods besides Allah and explicitly stated this with their tongues
- the pagans ascribed daughters to Allah (and thereby them having a share in His lordship and divinity)
- the pagans believed in a type of intercession which happens without the permission of Allah
- the pagans believed that their "gods" could bring benefit and harm independently from Allah or alongside Allah
- etc.

To make it short: What Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab claimed - which by the way is very basis for all the further mistakes that he then made - is open rejection of the Qur`an al-karim and therefore a type of disbelief!
(Note: The Prophets - peace and blessings be upon them all - called to the Lordship and Divinity of Allah ta'ala at the same time, because Lordship and Divinity are connected to each other and necessitate each other and can not be separated from each other.)

What is now interesting is that the Aya 39:3 itself does not accept the CLAIM of these polytheists that they intended to get closer to Allah ta'ala, rather calls their claim a LIE:

- { indeed Allah does not guide one who is a big liar, extremely ungrateful. }

Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) states in the Tafsir of the very Aya in question (39:3) the following:

يقول تعالـى ذكره: { إنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَهْدِي } إلـى الـحقّ ودينه الإسلام، والإقرار بوحدانـيته، فـيوفقه له { مَنْ هُوَ كاذِبٌ } مفتر علـى الله، يتقوّل علـيه البـاطل، ويضيف إلـيه ما لـيس من صفته، ويزعم أن له ولداً افتراء علـيه، كفـار لنعمه، جحود لربوبـيته

[Allah] - exalted be His remembrance - says: { Indeed Allah does not guide } to the truth and to His religion - [and that is] Islam - and to the affirmation of His Oneness (Wahdaniyya) - making him succeed [to this] - { one who is a big liar }, who is lying about Allah and saying about Him falsehood and ascribes to Him that which is not from his [perfect] attributes and falsely claims that that he has a child and is a disbeliever in his favours and a denier of his Lordship (Rububiyya)!
- end of quote -

How could their claim be not a lie while they would curse Allah ta'ala, if one where to curse their false deities?! How could their claim be true, while they were not even sure regarding the very existence of Allah ta'ala and doubted His knowledge and power and ascribed characteristics of Lordship to OTHER than Him?!

Conclusion from the above:
- The pagans could not imagine that one God alone could preserve this diverse creation and therefore affirmed the existence of many gods
- They took others as supporters and protectors instead of Allah ta'ala and this entailed ascribing to them characteristics of Lordship!
- They lied in their claim of intending "closeness to God", because their very belief in intercession is one without the permission of God being needed and that even things can happen against His permission! They were also lying because they actually didn't even really believe in Him and were ready to curse Him and even those among them would not do so regarded Him only as some sort of "supreme deity" and NOT as the sole Lord without any partners in his divine Self, Attributes and Actions whatsoever!

Note how the very next Aya declares God transcendent from having offspring and this should be enough for you to understand regarding what kind of people these Ayat was revealed!

So the question is: Does any of the above apply to the Muslims asking the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - for supplication / intercession?! Obviously no! So how could the above Aya apply to a Muslim then? It obviously can't and only someone who lacks knowledge and understanding on a very fundamental level would doubt this!

**Abu 'Abdullaah** · 02-10-20, 07:52 PM

Originally posted by Bolt View Post

Makes sense.
Looking at the wording again, I noticed the effect of it saying those whom you *pray to*. With regards to tawassul, one isn't praying to the righteous/prophets, but to Allah *through* them...

How do you pray *through* someone?

How do you pray *through* someone without their permission?

**Bolt** · 02-10-20, 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

How do you pray *through* someone?

How do you pray *through* someone without their permission?

The Dua was quoted somewhere here, something like: "O Allah, I approach you through your Prophet (can't recall the rest)."

**Abu 'Abdullaah** · 02-10-20, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by Bolt View Post

The Dua was quoted somewhere here, something like: "O Allah, I approach you through your Prophet (can't recall the rest)."

Yes, but what about the questions?

**Bolt** · 03-10-20, 03:15 AM

Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

Yes, but what about the questions?

Well you're just making Dua to Allah so why would you need their permission for that?

**Abu 'Abdullaah** · 03-10-20, 10:53 AM

Originally posted by Bolt View Post

Well you're just making Dua to Allah so why would you need their permission for that?

You don't understand the questions.

**Bolt** · 03-10-20, 12:40 PM

Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

You don't understand the questions.

might want to elaborate then
or wait till OP replies

**AdoonkaAlle** · 03-10-20, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Bolt View Post

This website says that the Hadith of "O slaves of Allah, help me" is inauthentic. Two questions:

2) If this would be permissible then one could also call upon the angels and jinns of Allah - which is known to be shirk. What about this?

----

I will check out that video as well

brother hope you're doing well

Just wanted to mention that the same website states clearly that seeking the help of the angels to guide lost people as mentioned in the dua of imam Ahmad is Islamically permissible.

Based on the above, you now know that what Imam Ahmad did has an origin and it was narrated from Ibn ‘Abbaas with a Hasan chain of narrators (according to Ibn Hajar), and that it is not Shirk, because he sought help from the angels of Allah whom Allah created to guide the lost people; so it is a request that is Islamically permissible.

Even in the commentary of Albaani, he clearly distinguishes between calling upon the angels and humans & jinns. So if calling upon angels was shirk why does the fatwa allow it ? the website is a salafi one mind you

This is why it's pertinent to understand this issue clearly and look at what classical scholars said about it, there's a difference of opinion when it comes to seeking intercession. Some only allowed it with the Prophet

while others included righteous people as well etc . Had it been clear shirk to do so they would never have differed at all and this is a very important point to note brother.

The calling upon of mushrikeen on their rabbs/gods is quite different than the muslim one, the only way they can be similar is if a muslim has the same exact belief as the mushrikeen ie they believe that whomever they're calling upon possesses attributes of rububiyyah ie a rabb and this is why they turn to them. A good example of this can be seen with the shias when they elevate their imams to the status of gods and attribute to them powers of rububiyyah.

Sure sunnis can fall into this as well but this needs to be investigated carefully so as to distinguish between the lawful intercession and the shirk one. Which is why one simply can not label anyone who seeks intercession with the Prophet

. awliya, etc as a mushrik.

**Abu 'Abdullaah** · 03-10-20, 02:41 PM

Originally posted by Bolt View Post

might want to elaborate then
or wait till OP replies

OK, one at a time.

How do you pray *through* someone? If you 'name drop' someone in a dua either 1. without their knowledge or 2. with their knowledge but without their approval, how how is your dua *through* them?

**Bolt** · 03-10-20, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

OK, one at a time.

How do you pray *through* someone? If you 'name drop' someone in a dua either 1. without their knowledge or 2. with their knowledge but without their approval, how how is your dua *through* them?

I would say, their knowledge and/or approval is not necessary because you're speaking directly to Allah who is aware of everything and has control over everything anyway.

**Bolt** · 03-10-20, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by AdoonkaAlle View Post

brother hope you're doing well

Just wanted to mention that the same website states clearly that seeking the help of the angels to guide lost people as mentioned in the dua of imam Ahmad is Islamically permissible.

Even in the commentary of Albaani, he clearly distinguishes between calling upon the angels and humans & jinns. So if calling upon angels was shirk why does the fatwa allow it ? the website is a salafi one mind you

This is why it's pertinent to understand this issue clearly and look at what classical scholars said about it, there's a difference of opinion when it comes to seeking intercession. Some only allowed it with the Prophet

while others included righteous people as well etc . Had it been clear shirk to do so they would never have differed at all and this is a very important point to note brother.

The calling upon of mushrikeen on their rabbs/gods is quite different than the muslim one, the only way they can be similar is if a muslim has the same exact belief as the mushrikeen ie they believe that whomever they're calling upon possesses attributes of rububiyyah ie a rabb and this is why they turn to them. A good example of this can be seen with the shias when they elevate their imams to the status of gods and attribute to them powers of rububiyyah.

Sure sunnis can fall into this as well but this needs to be investigated carefully so as to distinguish between the lawful intercession and the shirk one. Which is why one simply can not label anyone who seeks intercession with the Prophet

. awliya, etc as a mushrik.

Hmm, interesting. I used to think shirk was asking for any type of non-material help from people or angels/jinns i.e. things not directly in one's control (or not at all for that matter) before this thread happened.

The major reservation I have left about seeking intercession with the prophet is that the prophet himself, to my knowledge, did not ever say himself to approach Allah through him. Sure there's the verse that was quoted but that is not an explicit reference to tawassul and even if it was it doesn't state that one can continue the practice after the Prophet's death.

Jazakallah khayr

**Abu 'Abdullaah** · 03-10-20, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by Bolt View Post

I would say, their knowledge and/or approval is not necessary because you're speaking directly to Allah who is aware of everything and has control over everything anyway.

What does that even mean?

How can the intercessor not have knowledge of, nor approve of, the dua or person they are interceding for?

**AdoonkaAlle** · 03-10-20, 04:23 PM

Originally posted by Bolt View Post

Hmm, interesting. I used to think shirk was asking for any type of non-material help from people or angels/jinns i.e. things not directly in one's control (or not at all for that matter) before this thread happened.

The major reservation I have left about seeking intercession with the prophet is that the prophet himself, to my knowledge, did not ever say himself to approach Allah through him. Sure there's the verse that was quoted but that is not an explicit reference to tawassul and even if it was it doesn't state that one can continue the practice after the Prophet's death.

Jazakallah khayr

I understand brother and don't blame you tbh as much of it is due to the bias that exists in the literature published by salafis. The more one looks into it deeper and learn the opinion held by the classical ulama on this issue the clearer it becomes. Just to clarify i don't know of anyone that says to seek help from the jinn.

When you're in doubt about anything then the best solution is to refrain from it until you're in a better position to assess it, this however is different than making claims that whatever you find doubtful then that thing/issue is haram etc.

There's the hadith of the blind man who comes to the Prophet

asking Him to make dua fo him. Tirmidhi relates, through his chain of narrators from ‘Uthman ibn Hunayf, that a blind man came to the Prophet

and said, “I’ve been afflicted in my eyesight, so please pray to Allah for me.” The Prophet

said: “Go make ablution (wudu), perform two rak’as of prayer, and then say:

“Oh Allah, I ask You and turn to You through my Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of mercy; O Muhammad (Ya Muhammad), I seek your intercession with my Lord for the return of my eyesight [and in another version: “for my need, that it may be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me”].

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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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