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Originally posted by Abu Sulayman
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I can see here in this thread that some Hadith have been quoted from sources other than the 6 authentic books as well. I thought only those were authentic, reliable Hadith collections?
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Ah, got it.
I can see here in this thread that some Hadith have been quoted from sources other than the 6 authentic books as well. I thought only those were authentic, reliable Hadith collections?"When you want to cry, laugh.
If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything" -
Strange how we're generally not taught to seek intercession in this way.Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View PostComment
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The six authentic books of Hadith (al-Kutub al-Sitta) are called as such because they contain a lot of authentic narrations with Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim being on the top of that list (and this due to their two authors - may Allah ta'ala have mercy upon them - trying to exclusively report narrations from which they were sure that they were authentic).Originally posted by Bolt View Post
But other Hadith books - like Musnad Ahmad, al-Mu'jam al-Kabir, etc. - also contain authentic narrations (and also inauthentic ones). At the same time the above six - other than the Sahihayn - also contain inauthentic narrations. In fact there are even narrations in the Sahihayn, where one may be able to find a more accurate or more full version of the narration in other than them.
There is another thing that one should also know: There are Hadith books which were written prior to almost all of the 6 authentic books like Kitab al-Athar for example and they obviously contain authentic narrations. The thing is however that these narrations usually can also be found later reported in the 6 authentic books or in other than them.
Now as for the Ahadith mentioned in this thread: They are usually reported by more than one source and sometimes even by more than one route, but not every source is mentioned.
One of the narrations in this context to be mentioned would be the Hadith of the blind man - where our beloved Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) himself teached the man to use a supplication, which contains performing Tawassul with him - and this due to it being reported in a lot of sources (including some of the Kutub al-Sitta) and the authorities of Hadith agreeing on its authenticity. And this and it being general in meaning (!) is the reason why we see that the wording used in the context of Tawassul by many of the scholars later on is the based upon the wording of the Hadith of the blind man.
(I've a lot more scholarly statements from the classical scholars regarding this issue, but due to time reasons I only can post them bit by bit.)Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 24-09-20, 11:10 PM.Comment
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"When you want to cry, laugh.
If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"Comment
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I have a few more questions, if you don't mind
Does this supplication "O slaves of Allah, help me!" not consitute shirk, since only Allah has Ta`hir?
Is asking for intercession different from asking for help? From what I know, asking for help (non-physical) from anyone other than Allah would constitute shirk. If not, can you define shirk and contrast it with tawassul?
IslamQA says: https://islamqa.info/en/answers/3297...lamic-vs-bidah that the permissible type of tawassul is only via Allah, and they go as far as to say that one who calls on people who are dead or absent can no longer call himself a Muslim.
Can you quote anything Imam Abu Hanifah/ the Hanafi classical scholars have said regarding tawassul?Last edited by Bolt; 26-09-20, 11:33 AM."When you want to cry, laugh.
If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"Comment
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The statement "O slaves of Allah, help me!" - which is part of a narration that the scholars from among the Salaf and Khalaf acted upon (!) - is simply a call (Nida`) and not a prayer towards the one called. It does not in any way or form indicate that one ascribes real influence (Ta`thir) to other than Allah ta'ala nor does it imply worship, especially when the very wording contains the passage "slaves of Allah".Originally posted by Bolt View Post
If I were to ask you for help, would this in any way or form indicate me thinking that you have real influence alongside Allah ta'ala or instead of Him? Obviously no. So why should it be different in this case?
Then: To claim this expression to be "polytheism" (Shirk) is an attack against the Shari'a, because according to the divine law and according to language using the expression of "help" regarding the one who could be a mean (Sabab) in getting the help of Allah ta'ala is allowed without any doubt!
In Sahih al-Bukhari there is a narration, where a part of the story of Hajar and her son Isma'il - peace be upon them - is mentioned. When our Master Ibrahim - peace be upon him - let them in Makka - which was uninhabited back then - they ran out of water, and Isma'il - peace be upon him - was a little child back then and needed to drink milk. So his mother - peace be upon her - tried to see whether she could see anyone on the way in order to get water and to be be able to give her son milk again. She went between Safa and Marwa back and forth (seven times), but without success. Then she heard a voice and stated "Help us if you can offer any help!" (أَغِثْ إِنْ كَانَ عِنْدَكَ خَيْرٌ). Upon this Jibril - peace be upon him - appeared and hit the earth with his heel and so the water gushed out. This is how the Zamzam water started flowing!
So here we have Isma'il's mother - peace be upon them - asking for help from an angel (!), and the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - does not see anything wrong in what she did.
Imam Taqi al-Din al-Subki (d. 756 AH) stated in his Shifa` al-Siqam (p. 385):
فقد ظهر جواز إطلاق الاستغاثة والتوسل جميعاً ، وهذا أمر لا يُشَكّ فيه ، فإنَّ الاستغاثة في اللغة : طلب الغوث ، وهذا جائز لغة وشرعاً من كُلّ من يقدر عليه بأي لفظ عُبِّر عنه ، كما قالت أم إسماعيل : « أغث إن كان عندك غواث
“So the permissibility of using both Istighathah and Tawassul has become clear and this is a matter which can not be doubted, because Istighathah means seeking aid in the language and this is permissible in the language and in the Shari’ah from whomever is able to do it and by whatever phrase one expresses it, just like when the mother of Isma’il (peace be upon them) said: “Help us if you can offer any help.””
– end of the quote –
And Imam Ibn Hajar al-Haytami (d. 974 AH) stated in his al-Jawhar al-Munazzam (p. 112)
وبالجملة فإطلاق لفظة الاستغاثة لمن يحصل منه غوثٌ ولو تسبباً وكسباً أمر معلوم لا شك فيه لغة ولا شرعاً، فلا فرق بينه وبين السؤال، ... لا سيما مع ما نقل أن في حديث البخاري رحمه الله تعالى في الشفاعة يوم القيامة (فبينما هم كذلك استغاثوا بآدم ثم بموسى ثم بمحمد صلى الله عليه وسلم
So in general, using the term istighātha in an unrestricted sense for the one from whom aid is obtained, even if only by way of intermediary means and kasb, is something well known and there is no doubt regarding it; not in the language, or in the Sacred Law. Therefore, there is no difference between it and asking, ... especially in light of the narration that has been mentioned in al-Bukhārī concerning the intercession on the day of judgement:
“As they were in that state, they sought aid (istaghāthū) from Ādam عليه السلام, then Mūsa عليه السلام, then Muhammad ﷺ”
- end of quote -
Asking for intercession is asking for a type of help. As for differentiating between physical and non-physical help, then there is no basis for this in the book of Allah ta'ala or in the Sunna, nor is it logical to do so! Rather the correct differentiation is whether one ascribes real influence to Allah ta'ala alone without any partners (which is the belief of the monotheists) or one ascribes it to other than Him either independently or alongside of Him (which is the belief of polytheists).Originally posted by Bolt View Post
Shirk is to ascribe partners to Allah ta'ala in His Self, Attributes or Actions!
Tawassul is to ask Allah ta'ala by one of his creation, while knowing that real help comes from Allah ta'ala alone and that the creation mentioned is a Sabab (mean) created by Allah ta'ala and completely under His power, control and knowledge.
So there is a clear and big difference between the two: In Shirk one is ascribing at least some characteristics of divine Lordship to other than Allah ta'ala, while in Tawassul this is not done in any way or form.
They follow Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's (d. 1206 AH) position on this issue, which has basically no precedent during the first 1000 years of Hijra! Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and his early followers used this false understanding to attack the Muslims - including major scholars! - of the whole Arabian peninsula and mass-slaughter them and depopulate whole cities (this is how "Saudi" Arabia started). Even Imam Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) who turned this issue into a big one as the first person in history did not make Takfir based upon this issue! Rather he was harsh upon it and called it as "Shirk", while intending lesser polytheism in reality!Originally posted by Bolt View Post
Ibn Taymiyya however had a point and that is that some people indeed go beyond the correct limits and call the creation in the manner one calls Allah ta'ala (as the Rafidha and other ignorant people for example do) and this is disallowed without any doubt and can even become real Shirk in extreme and rare cases (i.e. if there is a clear Shirki belief behind it) (as Imam al-Jazari (d. 711 AH) and Imam al-Tufi (d. 716 AH) affirmed in their response to him). This still however did not justify his rejection of Tawassul with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - in itself!
The thing is that denying the permissibly of seeking aid / intercession specifically with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is dangerous, because it's connected to denying is high rank and status. If it's allowed to ask other than him from among the creation for supplication, then how is not allowed to ask him for supplication while he's the best of creation, sallallahu 'alayhi wa salalm?
Remember: According to the Sahaba - radhiallahu 'anhum ajma'in - his hair contains blessing and so does his clothing, so what about his self, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam?! Does this blessing go away just because he passed away?! Are we materialists or Muslims?
Then: In the Hadith of the blind man (even Ibn Taymiyya affirms it to be authentic!) - which contains the recommendation of the following supplication "O Allah, I ask You and approuch You through Your Prophet Muhammad, the Prophet of Mercy. [O Muhammad,] I approach my Lord through you in this need of mine, that it be fulfilled. O Allah, grant him intercession for me’" to be performed (and this with the knowledge that it contains calling the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - in Tawassul with him unto one's Lord!) - the blind man went away in and said this supplication IN ABSENCE of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - such that 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - (who narrated this incident and was sitting together in the meeting with the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) stated - "I swear by Allāh, we hadn’t gone away, nor had we remained a long time in talk when the man returned as if he had never suffered any affliction." (فوالله ما تفرقنا وطال بنا الحديث حتى دخل علينا الرجل كأنه لم يكن به ضر قط).
Yes, insha`Allah when I get time. But to make it clear from now on: It's accepted by their authorities.Originally posted by Bolt View PostLast edited by Abu Sulayman; 26-09-20, 04:28 PM.Comment
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Imam 'Abdullah bin Mahmud bin Mawdud al-Mawsili [al-Hanafi] (d. 683 AH) recommends seeking intercession with the Prophet ﷺOriginally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
He stated in his al-Ikhtiyar li Ta'lil al-Mukhtar 1/176 (= major accepted Fiqh book of the Ahnaf / Hanafiyya!) that one should say the following during the visitation (Ziyara) of the grave of our beloved Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam:
وَقَدْ قَالَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى: {وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا} [النساء: 64] وَقَدْ جِئْنَاكَ ظَالِمِينَ لِأَنْفُسِنَا، مُسْتَغْفِرِينَ لِذُنُوبِنَا، فَاشْفَعْ لَنَا إِلَى رَبِّكَ، وَأَسْأَلْهُ أَنْ يُمِيتَنَا عَلَى سُنَّتِكَ، وَأَنْ يَحْشُرَنَا فِي زُمْرَتِكَ، وَأَنْ يُورِدَنَا حَوْضَكَ، وَأَنْ يَسْقِيَنَا كَأْسَكَ غَيْرَ خَزَايَا وَلَا نَادِمِينَ، الشَّفَاعَةَ الشَّفَاعَةَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ، يَقُولُهَا ثَلَاثًا: {رَبَّنَا اغْفِرْ لَنَا وَلإِخْوَانِنَا الَّذِينَ سَبَقُونَا بِالإِيمَانِ} [الحشر: 10] الْآيَةَ. وَيُبَلِّغُهُ سَلَامَ مَنْ أَوْصَاهُ فَيَقُولُ: السَّلَامُ عَلَيْكَ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ مِنْ فُلَانِ بْنِ فُلَانٍ، يَسْتَشْفِعُ بِكَ إِلَى رَبِّكِ فَاشْفَعْ لَهُ وَلِجَمِيعِ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
"Allah ta'ala says: { If they had only, when they were unjust to themselves, come unto thee and asked Allah's forgiveness, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah indeed Oft-returning, Most Merciful } [4:64].
So we've come to you, having wronged ourselves and asking [Allah] for forgiveness regarding our sins, so intercede for us to your Lord and ask Him that He lets us die upon your Sunna, and that He gathers us [on the day of reckoning] among your group, and allows us to get to your pond and drink from your cup without disgrace or regret.
Intercession intercession, o Messenger of Allah (al-Shafa'a al-Shafa'a, ya Rasulallah) - he (the visitor) should say this thrice -, { “Our Lord, forgive us and those of our brothers who preceded us in faith” } [59:10] [till the end of] the Aya.
[Then] he should deliver the greeting of those who have told him to do so by saying: 'Peace be upon you, o Messenger of Allah, from Fulan bin Fulan, he seeks intercession through you unto your Lord, so intercede for him and for all believers'."
- end of quote -
It should be noted that the above is supported by the Ahnaf in general (go and read any major Hanafi Fiqh book!) such that it can be found in their important works like Fath al-Qadir 3/181 (by Imam Ibn al-Humam al-Hanafi (d. 861 AH)), al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya 1/266 (by a number of Hanafi authors) and other than it.
It should be also noted that some ignorant and / or dishonest people in our time will quote some of the Hanafi scholars, who stated that one should not ask Allah ta'ala "by the right of so and so upon you", and then these people claim that this means that these Ahnaf disallowed Tawassul. The reality is that some of their scholars only disliked this wording (!), because they stated that no one has an absolute right upon the Creator (and NOT in order to disallow Tawassul).
And among those who have mentioned this very reasoning for disliking it - while clearly supporting seeking intercession with the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is Imam Ibn Mawdud al-Mawsili himself in the very same book quoted above (see al-Ikhtiyar li Ta'lil al-Mukhtar 4/164: "قَالَ: (وَيُكْرَهُ أَنْ يَدْعُوَ اللَّهَ إِلَّا بِهِ) ؛ فَلَا يَقُولُ أَسْأَلُكَ بِفُلَانٍ أَوْ بِمَلَائِكَتِكَ أَوْ بِأَنْبِيَائِكَ وَنَحْوِ ذَلِكَ لِأَنَّهُ لَا حَقَّ لِلْمَخْلُوقِ عَلَى الْخَالِقِ").
This shows to you how one can not trust any of the claims of these people against Tawassul, because they're either based upon ignorance or dishonesty or both!
Wallahu a'lam.Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 26-09-20, 08:55 PM.Comment
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No examples from the Sunnah yet?Comment
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thisNo examples from the Sunnah yet?"When you want to cry, laugh.
If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"Comment
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Dear brother, do you have any further questions? Some of the Ahadith from the Sunna - which the scholars of the past used as proofs for Tawassul - have already been quoted.Originally posted by Bolt View Post
Additionally I would recommend you to watch the following video in order to better understand upon what misunderstanding the accusation of Shirk against those who seek intercession through a creation is based upon (it's based upon a false understanding of the concept of Tawhid in itself):
The Shaykh Sayf 'Ali al-'Asri is a Shafi'i scholar from Yemen, who has studied Islam in a classical way. There is a lot of benefit in listening to his lectures and he's reliable in the two great foundations (al-Aslayn) - meaning the foundations of the religion (Usul al-Din) and the foundations of jurisprudence (Usul al-Fiqh). May Allah ta'ala protect him.Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 28-09-20, 09:32 PM.Comment
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This website says that the Hadith of "O slaves of Allah, help me" is inauthentic. Two questions:Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
Dear brother, do you have any further questions? Some of the Ahadith from the Sunna - which the scholars of the past used as proofs for Tawassul - have already been quoted.
Additionally I would recommend you to watch the following video in order to better understand upon what misunderstanding the accusation of Shirk against those who seek intercession through a creation is based upon (it's based upon a false understanding of the concept of Tawhid in itself):
The Shaykh Sayf 'Ali al-'Asri is a Shafi'i scholar from Yemen, who has studied Islam in a classical way. There is a lot of benefit in listening to his lectures and he's reliable in the two great foundations (al-Aslayn) - meaning the foundations of the religion (Usul al-Din) and the foundations of jurisprudence (Usul al-Fiqh). May Allah ta'ala protect him.
1) They do not hear the Du'aa’ (supplication), and even if they hear it, they cannot respond to it and achieve what one desires.
{And those whom you invoke other than Him do not possess [as much as] the membrane of a date seed. If you invoke them, they do not hear your supplication; and if they heard, they would not respond to you. And on the Day of Resurrection they will deny your association. And none can inform you like [one] Acquainted [with all matters].} (35:13-14)
What do you say about this?
2) If this would be permissible then one could also call upon the angels and jinns of Allah - which is known to be shirk. What about this?
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I will check out that video as well
"When you want to cry, laugh.
If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"Comment
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I saw the video, by this point tawassul seems fine.
It makes me wonder why the scholar mentions twice in the video that he does not encourage istaghat
I think I'll look into shirk in more detail as well"When you want to cry, laugh.
If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"Comment
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The website is a so called "Salafi" one, so it's expected that they will claim this. Note that the very website admits that this was acted upon by Imam Ahmad and also that Imam Ibn Hajar and Imam al-Sakhawi - who were both major authorities in Hadith! - regarded the narration as sound / good (Hasan).Originally posted by Bolt View Post
Think logically: Why should one give precedence to the opinion (!) of al-Albani - who was a self-taught individual from the 20th century with all kinds of weird views and who is not known to have studied under any qualified people in Hadith - above the qualified judgement (!) of known authorities of Hadith?!
Please also read the following post:
Imam 'Abdullah bin al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH), Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH), Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH) and other scholars from the Salaf and Khalaf ACTED UPON the Hadith "O slaves of Allah! Help me!"
In the above comment it's stated that the Hadith that is reported in al-Mu'jam al-Kabir 10/276 by Imam al-Tabarani (d. 360 AH) - which states "When one loses his means of transport in a (deserted) land, he should call: “O slaves of Allāh! Help me recover (my transport)” for there are many of Allāh’s attendants on this earth. They will help you recover it." - has a weak chain if taken alone.
The point however is that is has supporting roots, which turn it from a weak Hadith into an acceptable and fair (Hasan) one. Add to this the fact that it has been acted upon by the likes of Imam Ibn al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH), Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH) and other early Muslims, which strengthens the narrations even further.
Note that major Hadith authorities like Imam al-Tabarani (d. 360), Imam al-Hakim (d. 405 AH) and Imam al-Bayhaqi (d. 458 AH) stated that this narration has been acted upon and Imam al-Bayhaqi even stated that this strengthens the narration!
My question: Are we supposed to put the statements of the very scholars who have transmitted to us this religion away for the sake of a person who lived in the 20th century? Why?
As for the "slaves of Allah", then Mulla 'Ali Qari (d. 1014 AH) stated in his al-Hirz al-Thamin (p. 933) the following in its explanation:
المراد بهم الملىكة او المسلمون من الجن او رجال الغيب المستمون بابدال
What is meant by them (i.e. the slaves of Allah) are the angels, or the Muslims from among the Jinn, or the men of the unseen [world] who are named as Abdal.
- end of quote -
The reason for not encouraging Istighatha (seeking aid) with the deceased is that there are technical issues unknown or not understood by [some or many] laymen such that there is the possibility of them doing disliked or even forbidden things, if one were to encourage them. Refer also the OP.Originally posted by Bolt View Post
But as for the issue of seeking intercession with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and asking Allah ta'ala through him, then there is no doubt that this is correct and something supported by the Shari'a and therefore encouraged, especially if one uses a similar wording as the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - himself teached by saying "O Allah, I ask You and I approach You through your Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, the Prophet of Mercy. O Messenger of Allah, I approach my Lord through you that my need be fulfilled" (or by making it short "O Allah I ask you for the sake of your Prophet ﷺ that you help me." or what is similar to it) and also to ask the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - to supplicate for the forgiveness of one's sins during the visitation (Ziyara), because this is something clearly supported by the 64th Aya in Surat al-Nisa`.
Regarding Shirk and also Tawhid: This is indeed very important, because when you understand these issues correctly you'll have no problems in understanding the issue at hand also. Note that the Tawhid that Allah ta'ala calls towards is mentioned in Surat al-Ikhlas, while the so called "Tawhid" that these people - who are obsessed with regarding the seeking of intercession done by other Muslims as "Shirk" - is something different. Likewise the Shirk that Allah ta'ala condemns in the book of Allah ta'ala is different from the so called "Shirk" that some people are obsessed with.
Regarding the Aya you quoted: I'll insha`Allah answer regarding it and also regarding the 3rd Aya of Surat al-Zumar - which some people like to apply to Muslims seeking intercession with the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and show through classical Tafasir how it's a grave mistake to apply this Aya to Muslims, because there is difference between the polytheists and the Muslims like the earth and the heavens and even greater than that!Comment
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A good series of short lectures / videos regarding Tawassul and connected issues
Lecture 2a Intro and the Prophet as a direct means of obtaining benefit
Lecture 2b Life of the Prophets in their Graves
Lecture 2c Hearing of the Prophet Allah bless him and give him peace
Lecture 2d Evidence for requesting dua from the Prophet Allah bless him and give him peace
Lecture 2e Incidents of the Early Muslims calling out to the Prophet Allah bless him and give him
Lecture 2f Sunni Madhabs on seeking help from the Prophet Allah bless him and give him peace
Lecture 2g Requesting dua from the Prophet from a distance
Lecture 2h The Salafi Wahabi viewpoint on requesting dua from the Prophet
Lecture 2i Shaykh Abd al Hayy al Kattani incident of Istighatha
There are also other beneficial videos from the same channel regarding connected issues, which I'll insha`Allah also post here.Comment
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