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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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  • Just look at the thread before AbuNajm appeared and what happened to it after he appeared!
    (Following the footsteps of that Najdi, right!?)

    Before it classical statements were brought. Ahadith were mentioned. Ayat were mentioned.

    Then he appeared and created this mess. Now he wants to explain to us the "nuance" in his statement against the mothers of his opponents!
    ​​​​
    But why are we surprised? Even killing Muslims inside Masajid is not "satanic" as long as that Najdi IAW has commanded it, right!?

    Billahi 'alaykum (I'm intending everyone!), have you ever in your entire life heard a scholar commanding someone to kill a worshiper inside a Masjid on a Friday!?
    Are we supposed to regard this evil man who commanded EXACTLY this as a "great scholar of Islam" and respect him!?
    I swear by Allah ta'ala that I don't respect ANYONE commanding this or doing this or defending this or thinking it's some light matter!
    Full stop!
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 01-03-21, 09:56 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post

      Imagine if any Sunni Muslim fighting group took a fraction of that many Disbelievers as slaves today- they would be lambasted by every government-appointed Muslim speaker, preacher, scholar, and authority. Wait, a Sunni Muslim group did take slaves over the past several years, far less than that in fact, and they were lambasted for this "un-Islamic act".

      But there it is in black and white that Salah ad-Deen took 15,000 slaves from the Christians who could not afford to pay their ransom after the conquest of Jerusalem.

      Still a hero with no one pointing out this fact and condemning it and focusing solely on that act alone.
      Wait, hold up a second, have you apostasised or something??

      Or are you an unaware of the rulings of Hanafi Martial fiqh? What he reportedly did was perfectly legal, perfectly Halal and in his rights as a commander to do. The Shariah is our measure of justice not the virtues of the Kuffar. Do you want me to quote Mukhtasar al-Quduri or something or are you deliberately acting dumb?

      And still regardless of such incidents, which some of amongst the Kuffar and their liberal Muslim sympathisers like Abu Najm would find objectionable, he is praised by the same Kuffar throughout the centuries, especially when they compare what they did (a slaughter where the streets were flooded with Muslim blood).

      And still he is superior, even according to your twisted values, to you beloved bloodthirsty Ibn Abdul Wahhab.


      Edit: For people who feel sorry for them, some context: These were the people who usurped the city from the Muslims and caused widespread genocide settling there on the Muslims corpses as it were with there families. By comparison, how many did Sultan Salahuddin execute? Rather he gave many the ability to return home to Christian lands unharmed, ensuring they were treated and transported safely, and with the others, he didn't kill them but put them into the bondage of the Muslims who already lost everything nearly century before.

      A just decision.
      Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 01-03-21, 10:20 PM. Reason: Not a century, nearly a century
      Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
      "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
      Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

      Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
      1/116

      Comment


      • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
        Completely wrong. I've never been detained for a month at a time, or even a full week or full day. I've never been arrested in my adult life. Not that it should matter...
        But what does the truth matter to people who will make up things about fellow Muslims and proceed on that basis even after being corrected? If they do it to the likes of IAW, then who am I to them that would prevent their lying and slandering me?
        That's the thing. These muppets don't care at all about Muslims - it's all about trying to deviate people from Tawheed and creating a safe sanctuary for Muslims. This particular one made a complete donkey of himself when he suggested something along the lines of an Islamic state would have being possible if it wasn;t for IS who spoiled everything. Of course I asked him who was working to establish this Islamic state and alas, it turned out to be another group of ghosts.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
          Funny. I never liked you and you never liked me. You're such an opportunist. I don't blame you though. Childish, but I don't blame you....

          I get the feeling due to our history over the years, you don't care about that and are only looking for a chance to speak ill of me.
          Seems you're a bit confused. I've never interacted with you until the Hanbali/Salafi thread, which was quite recently. Also, it's not about like or dislike to me. It's not personal. I agree with whatever I see to be upon the truth.

          If IAW is not "a leader and scholar of a Sunni Muslim group" nor is al-Baghdadi, then where is the insult to Abu Sulayman?
          ​​​​​​​Well, obviously this is depended on how you view such individuals. A lot of people who stayed silent, but responded in favour to ban Abu Sulayman - do view at least one of them to have been a leader of Sunni Muslims. And so do you, right? So keep your nuances to yourself. Anyone viewing them to be Sunni leaders would've read it like that, and anyone not viewing them to be Sunni leaders would have understood you meant it like that. Whatever you truly meant by it is not my concern. Either way, his mother is way too respected by normal Muslim people to be brought up and described like that on here. May Allah compensate her! And I would say so about the mother of any Muslim insha'Allah. You thinking it's about like and dislike is what is childish. But I don't blame you.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post

            I've been detained for more than 1,000 hours by the United States government. What are you on about?
            Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post

            Completely wrong. I've never been detained for a month at a time, or even a full week or full day. I've never been arrested in my adult life. Not that it should matter...

            But what does the truth matter to people who will make up things about fellow Muslims and proceed on that basis even after being corrected? If they do it to the likes of IAW, then who am I to them that would prevent their lying and slandering me?
            I used the word you used, "detained" exactly as you used it, and it is AA who is saying you were locked up...

            I will let you explain the apparent contradiction.
            Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
            "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
            Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

            Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
            1/116

            Comment


            • Just imagine a state in the hands of AbuNajm and AA ... it would be even worse than our states today!

              By the way: Could we please stop all of this and simply return to the topic.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
                ...I have mentioned that what you are doing is defending a (no offence) mass murderer and distorter of the Sunnah, who evidently may have been declared a disbeliever by RasulAllah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam....
                Is this a lie on the messenger of Allah?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                  Just imagine a state in the hands of AbuNajm and AA ... it would be even worse than our states today!

                  By the way: Could we please stop all of this and simply return to the topic.
                  I'm trying to imagine a state run by your spook army.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                    Is this a lie on the messenger of Allah?

                    No, I used the word, "may" - I am not saying definitively that he is the man mentioned in that Hadith, though he certainly fits the bill...
                    Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                    "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                    Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                    Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                    1/116

                    Comment


                    • So I'll repost this, as I haven't gotten any replies:

                      Tawassul/Istigatha

                      Anyway, I share the sentiment that this thread is getting way off topic. The original topic was the permissibility of Tawassul, which according to the vast majority is recommended let alone permitted. But there are always people confusing Istigatha and Tawassul in these kinds of topics, and Istigatha is more controversial, though it can never be Shirk with the correct Aqeedah.

                      My problem with the ps.Salafis is not them prohibiting either Tawassul or Istigatha - its their claims that these are Shirk. They need to differentiate between what is merely Haram and what is also Kufr/Shirk.

                      I ask them a question:

                      A man goes and makes Sajdah before his father. What is the ruling on him?
                      Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                      "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                      Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                      Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                      1/116

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                        No, I used the word, "may" - I am not saying definitively that he is the man mentioned in that Hadith, though he certainly fits the bill...
                        You may be a disbeliever pretending to be a Muslim for all we know. It's usually disbelievers that revel in Muslims getting locked up by disbelievers. You certainly fit the bill...

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                          No, I used the word, "may" - I am not saying definitively that he is the man mentioned in that Hadith, though he certainly fits the bill...
                          Do you intend the authentic Hadith mentioned here?:

                          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                          One last point: Their sign is shaving [ their heads]!!

                          From Sahih al-Bukhari on the authority of Abu Sa'id al-Khudhri, radhiallahu 'anhu:

                          النَّبِيِّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ يَخْرُجُ نَاسٌ مِنْ قِبَلِ الْمَشْرِقِ وَيَقْرَءُونَ الْقُرْآنَ لَا يُجَاوِزُ تَرَاقِيَهُمْ يَمْرُقُونَ مِنْ الدِّينِ كَمَا يَمْرُقُ السَّهْمُ مِنْ الرَّمِيَّةِ ثُمَّ لَا يَعُودُونَ فِيهِ حَتَّى يَعُودَ السَّهْمُ إِلَى فُوقِهِ قِيلَ مَا سِيمَاهُمْ قَالَ سِيمَاهُمْ التَّحْلِيقُ أَوْ قَالَ التَّسْبِيدُ

                          The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said, There will come a people from the east, who recite the Quran but it does not go beyond their throats. They will go out of the religion, just as an arrow pierces through its target, and they will not return to it, just as the arrow does not return to the bow.” It was said, “What will be their sign?” The Prophet said, “Their sign is shaving.” Or he said, “It is shearing.
                          - end of quote -

                          This is why one of the scholars of their time said that it's not needed to refute them, because them shaving their heads is enough as a proof against them!


                          And here we have one of the Khariji grandsons of MIAW telling us that they would indeed shave their heads "because the disbelievers of our time (he's intending Muslims as usual!) do not shave [their heads], so not shaving has become something that makes one similar to them" (from Majmu'at al-Rasa`il wal Masa`il al-Najdiyya 5/578):

                          وأما السؤال الخامس عن حلق شعر الرأس: فالذي تدل عليه الأحاديث النهي عن حلق بعضه وترك بعضه، فأما تركه كله فلا بأس به إذا أكرمه الإنسان كما دلت عليه السنة الصحيحة.وأما حديث كليب، فهو يدل على الأمر بالحلق عند دخوله في الإسلام إن صح الحديث، ولا يدل على أن استمرار الحلق سنة.وأما تعزير من لم يحلق وأخذ ماله فلا يجوز، وينهى فاعله عن ذلك؛ لأن ترك الحلق ليس منهيا عنه، وإنما نهى عنه ولي الأمر؛ لأن الحلق هو العادة عندنا، ولا يتركه إلا السفهاء عندنا 1 فنهى عن ذلك نهي تنزيه، لا نهي تحريم سدا للذريعة؛ ولأن كفار زماننا لا يحلقون؛ فصار في عدم الحلق تشبها بهم
                          - end of quote -

                          Is there anything more left to be said after this? Wallahul musta'an!
                          We have explicit statements of real scholars in the time of IAW, who said that it refers to him and his group. See:


                          Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                          The 'Allama 'Alawi bin Ahmad al-Haddad [al-Hadhrami al-Shafi'i] (d. 1232 AH) said in his work Misbah al-Anam (p. 5):

                          قال السيد العلامة عبد الرحمن ابن العلامة سيلمان الأهدل مفتي زبيد يكفي في التصنيف والرد على النجدي الحديث الصحيح في البخاري قرن العلامتين سيماهم التحليق وأنهم من المشرق واجتمعت الخصلتان فيهم

                          The Sayyid [and] 'Allama 'Abd al-Rahman, son of the 'Allama Sulayman al-Ahdal - the Mufti of Zubayd - said:
                          "It's enough as a writing and response against the Najdi (MIAW) [to mention] the authentic Hadith in [Sahih] al-Bukhari in the joining of the two signs: "Their sign is shaving" and that they're from the east. Both of these characteristics apply to them."

                          - end of quote -

                          Who from among the "Salafis" can deny these two characteristics regarding the early Najdi movement?! Both issues are established against them with certainty!

                          Can anyone tell me about a single movement prior to the Najdis marching towards Madina al-munawwara from the east with their SHAVEN HEADS!? This Hadith literally fits upon them.
                          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 01-03-21, 10:32 PM.

                          Comment


                          • I don't mean to derail the thread any more and respect the notion to get back on topic. But I do wish to say one last thing, if I may.

                            AbuNajm, whatever you might have meant by it. I think it's really a shameless type of speech to refer to a brother as "your friend" when addressing a sister. You should understand that of course I don't assume you mean a true friend by it - as I wouldn't assume you would think your fellow Muslims would fall in impermissible friendships between the genders. But even the speech itself lacks shame/shyness when addressing a sister. I really wish you didn't and refrain from it in the future insha'Allah.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Fais View Post

                              They should see how civil people argue. Like me and you.
                              Fais is a mod?

                              Nor did I think we were arguing, he said I'm salafi in spite of me saying I am not. I told him call me whatever you want. No skin off my nose
                              .لا نريد زعيما يخاف البيت الإبيض
                              نريد زعيما يخاف الواحد الأحد
                              دولة الإسلامية باقية





                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                                Do you intend the authentic Hadith mentioned here?:



                                We have explicit statements of real scholars in the time of IAW, who said that it refers to him and his group. See:



                                Actually I was referring to this:

                                Hudhaifa bin al-Yaman Radiyallahu An said that the Prophet Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam said:

                                Verily, I fear about a man from you who will read the Qur'an so much that his face will become enlightened and he will come to personify Islam. This will continue until Allah desires. Then these things will be taken away from him when he will disregard them by putting them all behind his back and will attack his neighbor with the sword accusing him of Shirk. The Prophet peace be upon him was asked, "which of the two will be deserving of such an accusation? - The attacker or the attacked?" The Prophet replied, "the attacker (the one accusing the other of Shirk)"

                                - Tarikh ul Kabir 4/301, Sahih ibn Hibban, (w/ Tahqiq Nasir Albani), 1/200, Hadith 81. (al-Albani said: 'this hadith is hasan'), Tafsir Ibn Kathir 2/266. (Ibn Kathir Rahimullah Alay rated the hadith "jayyid" i.e. "good").

                                Text from Sahih Ibn Hibban.
                                But it seems there are many ahadith referring to this sect.

                                I remember reading that Hadith you have quoted when I was younger, and alongside other Hadith I was just amazed to find these characteristics are accurately depicted. You would think that some of these people were constantly going on Hajj/Umrah. I think they have caught on, and many cover there heads and grow their hair out to avoid the association. In fact some Da'esh fighters grow their hair very long... and (in addition to other things) consequently fall into another prophecy!

                                Unfortunately for them, the geography has always worked against them, but as I said it didn't need to be so bad. Ironically, if they had been more honest, then they could have made more resiliant arguments.

                                And Subhanallah, I was not aware the the early Najdiyyah religiously kept to this practice of shaving...
                                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                                1/116

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