Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

[AbuNajm]

Abu Sulayman believes the biggest threat to Muslims in Iraq isn't the US/Coalition or the Shia or secularism etc... he believes it's Wahhabis! He only became concerned about bloodshed in that region when IS became a thing... not a peep before that.

This is what makes me think he's just another clever Shi'ah in a long line of wannabe infiltrators. Of all the murders being committed today against Muslims, the vast majority are being committed by the Shi'ah and their Disbeliever allies like Russia and Iran. And what is the defense of Iran and the disinformation outlets of Russia? To stoke the flames against Sunni insurgent groups and propagate western media distortions as well as alt-right conspiracy theories- whatever noodle sticks to the wall.

Here are the facts about the war in Iraq:

"In order to assess this impact further, the researchers calculated the proportion of women and children among civilian deaths identified as men, women or children. This proportion is termed the “Dirty War Index” (DWI), and indicates the scale of indiscriminate killing in a conflict. The most indiscriminate effects on women and children in Iraq were from unknown perpetrators firing mortars (DWI = 79) and using non-suicide vehicle bombs (DWI = 54), and from Coalition air attacks (DWI = 69). Coalition forces had a higher DWI than anti-coalition forces for all weapons combined, and for small arms gunfire, with no decrease over the study period."

https://www.iraqbodycount.org/analys...ers/plos-2011/

Disbelievers raze whole cities in Iraq and Syria and these guys want to talk about tit-for-tat killings or alleged executions by insurgent groups that do not even amount to a fraction of the murders committed by Disbelievers and their Iranian and western allies.

[Abu Sulayman]

Your insistence on asking a member's views about ISIS in threads entirely unrelated to that subject are indicative of the double standards on this forum regarding harassment. It is also indicative of just how much of a piece of trash you are.

I really hope readers on this forum can see that...

(Highlight added by me.)

Even though the above was not directed at me, but let me ask this:
May I ask what your justification is to call another member "a piece of trash"? Just because you're sympathizing with criminals and don't want everyone to know it? Have a little bit of shame man and watch your mouth. Seriously!

Disbelievers raze whole cities in Iraq and Syria and these guys want to talk about tit-for-tat killings or alleged executions by insurgent groups that do not even amount to a fraction of the murders committed by Disbelievers and their Iranian and western allies.

Look at the logic! Iran and the disbelievers are oppressing our brothers in Syria and this means that ISIS has now the right to also oppress them?!?! What kind of logic is this?!?!

You are really no better than the terrorist American state or any other oppressive group. All you want is justifying killing innocent people (in this case Muslims!) for whatever reasons.

[AbuNajm]

AbuNajm, every single time you try to deceive people you end up embarrassing yourself further and further. Wasn't the last embarrassment HERE (where you proved that you've not mastered Hanbali Fiqh quite unlike what you previously claimed!) enough for you?
Add to all of this: Why all this dishonesty? What religion are you upon? I mean seriously?! A Muslim does not lie!

When did I claim to be a "master of Hanbali Fiqh"?

You're so good at linking quotes, why don't you link that one?

How was it an attempt at deception? I readily admitted a mistake in translation and that admission was within hours of the original post without anything in between the original post and my admission except your correction.

Where is the dishonesty in that?

Now you ask me "what religion are you upon"?

Isn't that a question bettered aimed at yourself for continuing to lambast a person for a mistake that they admitted and rectified?

Note how you yourself stated that I put the statement "whom he regards as "polytheists"" into parenthesis! What does that mean? It's my own comment on that which he states! Is this so difficult to understand?
Is this comment of mine taken out of nowhere? NO! Because if you wouldn't be blind and wouldn't be dishonest, you would also see that I quoted the very same person above also making these statements:

None of the subsequent statements you quote say "whom he regards as polytheists" in reference to "the majority of Arabs". NOT A SINGLE ONE!

And even if you could stretch any quote of the grandson of IAW into implying that IAW believed "the majority of Arabs were polytheists" during his time, that still does not grant you the license to put that in parenthesis anywhere you wish.

By the way: You claimed that they were not doing Takfir and here we see that you have LIED in front of everyone!

Is English a second or third language for you?

You seem to have a very difficult time understanding what I write because you come back with conclusions completely contradictory to what I have clearly stated.

Where did I say that IAW "was not doing Takfeer"? I never denied that IAW declared Takfeer on some people. It would be ridiculous to claim otherwise and it's ridiculous for you to claim I said so.

And he keeps on lying without any shame. What religion are you people on? I mean seriously? Lying is among the worst of traits in Islam, but it seems you don't care about that at ALL!

Seriously- no idea what you're on about at this point. Seems to me, and this is giving you the benefit of the doubt at this point, but you are misunderstanding quite a bit of these discussions and making outlandish conclusions, both in your favor and against me.

Do you see children- this is what bias and prejudice does to the human brain...[cue egg frying in a pan]

[AbuNajm]

(Highlight added by me.)

Even though the above was not directed at me, but let me ask this:
May I ask what your justification is to call another member "a piece of trash"? Just because you're sympathizing with criminals and don't want everyone to know it? Have a little bit of shame man and watch your mouth. Seriously!

There you go Donald J. Trump of the forum!

Now you are also a piece of trash for accusing me of sympathizing with ISIS with NO PROOF. Why? Because I won't speak on the subject?

"Watch your mouth"? Coming from someone who calls IAW "Dajjal" and who had nothing to say about his fellow Shi'ah calling a well-known Shaykh "clown".

Ok.

You act just like the Shi'ah hit squads in Iraq that execute Sunni men and boys simply for having Sunni names.

Look at the logic! Iran and the disbelievers are oppressing our brothers in Syria and this means that ISIS has now the right to also oppress them?!?! What kind of logic is this?!?!

Yes, please look at the logic- but in your own messed up statement.

[AbuNajm]

Seriously- why are members here allowed to accuse fellow members of illegal activities like support for ISIS? Do moderators and the admin not care about such accusations?

[AbuNajm]

Right and the one who calls the Ash'ari as Jahmiyyah has not made takfir? So not only are you a Takfeeri, you also either a liar or you have poor memory.


Speaking of poor memory, you'll have to excuse mine - did you ever answer my question on what your views on ISIS (aka Daesh/ISIL etc.) is?

I am still waiting.

Please help me report this post- if this is allowed on the forum, then why have any rules at all?

[Abu Sulayman]

None of the subsequent statements you quote say "whom he regards as polytheists" in reference to "the majority of Arabs". NOT A SINGLE ONE!

And even if you could stretch any quote of the grandson of IAW into implying that IAW believed "the majority of Arabs were polytheists" during his time, that still does not grant you the license to put that in parenthesis anywhere you wish.

AbuNajm! Don't try these deceptive games please. I repeat:

36 - 'Abd al-Latif bin 'Abd al-Rahman (from the progeny of IAW / Dhul Khuwaysira): Majority of the people (Muslims!) have left the greatest foundation of Islam (i.e. Tawhid!)

مع أنه قد اطرد القياس بفساد أكثر الناس، وتركهم من الإسلام أصله الأعظم والأساس، وكثر الاشتباه في أبواب الدين والالتباس؛ وجمهورهم عكس القضية، في مسمى الملة الإسلامية، ولم يميزوا بينها وبين الملة القرشية، والسنة الجاهلية، فهم كما وصفهم الله تعالى، بقوله:: {أَمْ تَحْسَبُ أَنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ أَوْ يَعْقِلُونَ إِنْ هُمْ إِلاّ كَالأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ سَبِيلاً} [سورة الفرقان آية: 44]
- end of quote (from al-Durar al-Saniyya 14/189) -

Translate the above statement!!! Let everyone see what you're hiding from them!


As for the position of IAW and the early Najdis, then it has been already quoted elsewhere in the beginning of the other thread:

3 - Calling the scholars of the Haramayn (i.e. Makka al-mukarrama and Madina al-munawwara), Basra, Iraq and Yemen as "scholars of the polytheists" and accusing its people of "polytheism"

وقد منّ الله عليكم بإقرار علماء المشركين بهذا كله، سمعتم إقرارهم أن هذا الذي يفعل في الحرمين، والبصرة، والعراق، واليمن، أن هذا شرك بالله ، فأقروا لكم أن هذا الدين الذي ينصرون أهله، ويزعمون أنهم السواد الأعظم، أقروا لكم أن دينهم هو الشرك.
وأقروا لكم أيضا أن التوحيد الذي يسعون في إطفائه، وفي قتل أهله وحبسهم، أنه دين الله ورسوله...ا
- end of quote (from al-Durar al-Saniyya 10/7-8) -

So that which went on in the Harmayn al-sharifayn, Basra, 'Iraq and Yemen is "Shirk billah" according to them (they're by the way lying that anyone affirmed it as such, but that's another story)!
These places are all lands of the Arabs, o dishonest one! And its scholars are the scholars of Islam and not polytheists as the wretched Najdis claimed!

[Abu Sulayman]

Where did I say that IAW "was not doing Takfeer"? I never denied that IAW declared Takfeer on some people. It would be ridiculous to claim otherwise and it's ridiculous for you to claim I said so.

"On some people"... how cute! Are you sure? So the Najdis never said things like "whosoever does not regard the people of Makka as polytheists is a disbeliever himself" and they never regarded the people of the Haramayn to be polytheists and never called them to "Islam" (while they were already on Islam!) and never made an embargo against them, right? And they never stopped the Hajj? I made that all up?

Well let's see:

18 - Claiming that the Ottoman state and the people of Makka are polytheists and that Takfir is to be done upon anyone not making Takfir upon them (this is a famous Najdi position!)

فمن لم يكفر المشركين من الدولة التركية، و عباد القبور، كأهل مكة وغيرهم، ممن عبد الصالحين، وعدل عن توحيد الله إلى الشرك، وبدّل سنّة رسوله صلى الله عليه وسلم بالبدع، فهو كافر مثلهم، وإن كان يكره دينهم، ويبغضهم، ويحب الإسلام والمسلمين ; فإن الذي لا يكفر المشركين، غير مصدق بالقرآن، فإن القرآن قد كفر المشركين، وأمر بتكفيرهم، وعداوتهم وقتالهم
- end of quote (from al-Durar al-Saniyya 2/292) -

Translation of 18th point of the theoretical results (the beginning is not quoted in the Arabic text):

The second issue: To disbelieve in that which is worshipped instead of Allah, and this means to make Takfir (declare as disbelievers) upon the polytheists (Mushrikin) and the disavowal from them and that which they worship alongside Allah.
So whoever does not make Takfir upon the polytheists of the turkish state (i.e. the Ottoman state!) and the grave-worshippers like the people of Makka (!!!) and [upon] others from those who worship the righteous (Salihin) and left the Tawhid (monotheism) of Allah for Shirk (polytheism) and exchanged the Sunna of his Messenger - sallalalhu 'alayhi wa sallam - with innovations, then he is a disbeliever like them even if dislikes their religion and hates them and loves Islam and its people.
This is so because the one who does not declare the polytheists to be disbelievers has not accepted the Qur`an. The Qur`an declares the polytheists as disbelievers, and commands to declare them as such and to show enmity towards them and to fight them.
- end of quote -

WAIT! I thought they just made Takfir of "SOME PEOPLE". Aren't the people of Makka al-mukarrama and the Ottoman state a little bit more than "some people"? Whom are you trying to fool?

Should we keep on with the endless list of "some people"?! The people of Riyadh, the people of Basra, the people of al-Ahsa`, the people of Ta`if and keep on and on! These are all "some people"! And none of them lives on the land of the Arabs nor are they Arabs, right?!

Mufid al-Mustafid - which is a pure Khariji work written by IAW himself (!) in order to justify making Takfir upon a WHOLE TOWNSHIP (his justification in it is chain-Takfir by the way!) - is in reality written by me, right? All these people are "some people"! How great!

[Abu Sulayman]

Read what the sons of IAW thought about "some people" (meaning almost all Muslims, if not all of them!):

17 - Their claim that the majority of the people are upon "polytheism" (they mention Yemen, Tihama, the Haramayn (i.e. Makka and Madina), the Levant and Iraq, so they intend Muslims as usual!)

بل الذي نتحقق ونعتقده: أن أهل اليمن وتهامة، والحرمين والشام والعراق، قد بلغتهم دعوتنا، وتحققوا أنا نأمر بإخلاص العبادة لله، وننكر ما عليه أكثر الناس، من الإشراك بالله من دعاء غير الله
- end of quote (from al-Durar al-Saniyya 9/253) -

And now compare this with what these posts:

- The Prophet ﷺ was not afraid that his nation will fall into [greater] polytheism and swore by Allah regarding this!
- The only polytheism that can be found in his nation is the lesser one!
- The Prophet ﷺ informed his nation that satan has despaired to be EVER worshiped on the Arabian peninsula again!
- When will idols be worshiped again in the lands of the Arabs?: When ALL believers die (just before the end of times)!


And there is no doubt that the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - spoke the truth! So we disbelieve in every Dajjal who opposes what he - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - stated! FULL STOP!

[Abu Sulayman]

By the way: No one here supports America / Russia / China / Iran (as far as I know) in order for me to be refuting them here or highlight their oppression. Nor is any normal Sunni Muslim who is trying to learn his religion influenced by them.
So telling me "why are you refuting IAW and not them" is just a failed attempt to divert the topic.

As for AbuNajm: He really thinks we're all idiots. Well, do you thinks we have all forgotten about your posts on the IA forums? Now you're lucky that the forum doesn't exist anymore, but this HERE is from your own very facebook account, you genius!
Here you call a female ISIS member as "lioness" - which clearly indicates sypmathy! - and then you call others as pieces of trash for thinking that you may have some sympathy for some Khariji groups!

This genius - who thinks no one sees through his deception - also posted the following on the very date of death of that wretched al-Baghdadi (head of ISIS back then):

The western media loves to portray our heroes as dying in a cowardly and dishonorable manner when the reality of the matter is contrary.
May Allah azza wa jalla grant martyrdom to all Muslims who die fighting to establish the Shari'ah and fighting Disbelievers, regardless of affiliation or group identity politics.
May Allah azza wa jalla never let rest the eyes of cowards or hearts of Hypocrites and Disbelievers.
Ameen.
- end of quote -

What a coincidence! Reminds of IAW when it was said to him that he had burned an accepted Islamic book, he claimed that this a great slander and then elsewhere he was like "well yes, I burned it...so what". Deception and lying seems to be the foundation of the religion of these people.

Now that criminal al-Baghdadi maybe your hero, but he's surely not a hero of Islam!
Our heroes are the Sahabat al-kiram - radhiallahu 'anhum - and the likes of Sultan Salah al-Din and Sultan Muhammad al-Fatih and Sultan 'Abd al-Hamid II and 'Umar al-Mukhtar and other than them. These are our heroes, so bring us the like of them!

[AbuNajm]

مع أنه قد اطرد القياس بفساد أكثر الناس، وتركهم من الإسلام أصله الأعظم والأساس، وكثر الاشتباه في أبواب الدين والالتباس؛ وجمهورهم عكس القضية، في مسمى الملة الإسلامية، ولم يميزوا بينها وبين الملة القرشية، والسنة الجاهلية، فهم كما وصفهم الله تعالى، بقوله:: {أَمْ تَحْسَبُ أَنَّ أَكْثَرَهُمْ يَسْمَعُونَ أَوْ يَعْقِلُونَ إِنْ هُمْ إِلاّ كَالأَنْعَامِ بَلْ هُمْ أَضَلُّ سَبِيلاً} [سورة الفرقان آية: 44]

Translate the above statement!!! Let everyone see what you're hiding from them!

Just because your level of comprehension of the texts is weak and what little there is has become twisted and blemished by your hatred for fellow Muslims, don't try to force people to see from your tainted lenses.

You want everyone to believe that IAW making the comment, from his perspective in Arabia at the middle to end of the 18th century, that the majority of people had regressed into un-Islamic practices and beliefs, that this constitutes Takfeer of all of them?

Why? Because you defend many of those beliefs and consider them to be "sound" because you're an Ash'ari with Sufi tendencies?

Grave worship, seeking intercession, succor, and assistance from dead and/or absent people, and believing that the righteous can know the Unseen as a power that resides within them- were all prominent beliefs in Arabia at the time of IAW. He, like most scholars of al-Hijaz today, consider those things to be Shirk.

You can belly-ache all you want on this forum with your insults of IAW, "salafis" and everyone that sounds like them- but you aren't going to change that one bit.

Saying "the majority of people have been corrupted with beliefs like the polytheist Quraysh and pre-Islamic Arabs" is not the same as making Takfeer of "the majority of Arabs" and calling the polytheists.

You failed.

As for the position of IAW and the early Najdis, then it has been already quoted elsewhere in the beginning of the other thread:

وقد منّ الله عليكم بإقرار علماء المشركين بهذا كله، سمعتم إقرارهم أن هذا الذي يفعل في الحرمين، والبصرة، والعراق، واليمن، أن هذا شرك بالله ، فأقروا لكم أن هذا الدين الذي ينصرون أهله، ويزعمون أنهم السواد الأعظم، أقروا لكم أن دينهم هو الشرك.
وأقروا لكم أيضا أن التوحيد الذي يسعون في إطفائه، وفي قتل أهله وحبسهم، أنه دين الله ورسوله...ا

So that which went on in the Harmayn al-sharifayn, Basra, 'Iraq and Yemen is "Shirk billah" according to them (they're by the way lying that anyone affirmed it as such, but that's another story)!
These places are all lands of the Arabs, o dishonest one! And its scholars are the scholars of Islam and not polytheists as the wretched Najdis claimed!

So, you want everyone to believe that IAW just made Takfeer like that- the quote doesn't even mention the reason!

Why did he call such "scholars" the "scholars of the polytheists"? Don't you think that's important to mention?

No, of course not. Better to just cut the quote so that it looks like IAW is just randomly referring to everyone and anyone as a polytheist because that suits your agenda.

Here's what is directly before the above quote:

وسمعتم قول المشركين: الشرك عبادة الأصنام، وأما الصالحون فلا، وسمعتم قولهم: لا نريد إلا من الله، لكن نريد بجاههم

"And you hear the statement of the polytheists- "Shirk is worship of idols; as for [worship of] the righteous, then it is not [Shirk]"; and you hear their statement- "We do not intend [by these supplications, intercessions, etc] except from Allah, rather we intend [the supplications] "by means of their honor"..."

I hope I got the translation correct, but that's how I read it initially and without cross-referencing or editing the translation.

Again, those who affirm the types of beliefs mentioned in the above quote, which directly precedes the quote you mentioned, IAW calls them "scholars of polytheists". IAW is referring to the people who believe this and act upon it whether they are in the Two Holy Sanctuaries, Basra, Iraq, and Yemen.

He is NOT making Takfeer of everyone in those cities or places. How dense are you to argue that?

Anyone who worships the righteous, their graves, and supplicates to them is guilty of Shirk, not just according to IAW but many, many scholars who are NOT Ash'ari or Sufi. Calling them "polytheists" in general, is a pejorative statement, for sure. But it does NOT constitute "considering as polytheists the majority of Arabs", as you said and were questioned about.

You are embarrassing yourself...

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

...Our heroes are the Sahabat al-kiram - radhiallahu 'anhum - and the likes of Sultan Salah al-Din and Sultan Muhammad al-Fatih and Sultan 'Abd al-Hamid II and 'Umar al-Mukhtar and other than them. These are our heroes, so bring us the like of them!

Any current day heroes?

[AbuNajm]

Read what the sons of IAW thought about "some people" (meaning almost all Muslims, if not all of them!):

17 - Their claim that the majority of the people are upon "polytheism" (they mention Yemen, Tihama, the Haramayn (i.e. Makka and Madina), the Levant and Iraq, so they intend Muslims as usual!)

بل الذي نتحقق ونعتقده: أن أهل اليمن وتهامة، والحرمين والشام والعراق، قد بلغتهم دعوتنا، وتحققوا أنا نأمر بإخلاص العبادة لله، وننكر ما عليه أكثر الناس، من الإشراك بالله من دعاء غير الله
- end of quote (from al-Durar al-Saniyya 9/253) -

So, in his experience at the time, IAW believed there to be an overwhelming number of people in those areas who supplicated to other than Allah due to what was spread from the "scholars" of those areas.

How you deduce from that "almost all Muslims, if not all of them", is another strange interpretation from you.

[AbuNajm]

By the way: No one here supports America / Russia / China / Iran (as far as I know) in order for me to be refuting them here or highlight their oppression. Nor is any normal Sunni Muslim who is trying to learn his religion influenced by them.
So telling me "why are you refuting IAW and not them" is just a failed attempt to divert the topic.

Speaking of diverting topics, why don't you bring up something about ISIS right now because you're on the losing end of this discussion?

And as if on cue:

As for AbuNajm: He really thinks we're all idiots. Well, do you thinks we have all forgotten about your posts on the IA forums? Now you're lucky that the forum doesn't exist anymore, but this HERE is from your own very facebook account, you genius!
Here you call a female ISIS member as "lioness" - which clearly indicates sypmathy! - and then you call others as pieces of trash for thinking that you may have some sympathy for some Khariji groups!

Noted: so being married to someone who belongs to a group makes you from that group also?

That sister was not and has not ever been tried and convicted for belonging to any "terrorist" organization. Who are you to come along and accuse someone of "sympathy" for ISIS simply for supporting a Muslim sister who was never charged with belonging to that organization?

Are you sure you don't consult with Israeli settlers in demolishing the homes of Palestinian families because a single person from the family was ACCUSED and not PROVEN to belong to a so-called "terrorist" group?

This genius - who thinks no one sees through his deception - also posted the following on the very date of death of that wretched al-Baghdadi (head of ISIS back then):

Yes, I did. Al-Baghdadi is no more wretched than the mother who gives birth to a Shaytan among mankind who refers to the leaders and scholars of Sunni Muslim groups as "Dajjal" and "wretched".

The western media loves to portray our heroes as dying in a cowardly and dishonorable manner when the reality of the matter is contrary.
May Allah azza wa jalla grant martyrdom to all Muslims who die fighting to establish the Shari'ah and fighting Disbelievers, regardless of affiliation or group identity politics.
May Allah azza wa jalla never let rest the eyes of cowards or hearts of Hypocrites and Disbelievers.
Ameen.
- end of quote -

Say "Ameen". There's nothing about ISIS in that Du'a. Or are you afraid that the end part refers to you?

What a coincidence! Reminds of IAW ...

Al-Hamdu li-Llahi. I could never deserve to be mentioned as reminding someone of IAW. Of course I know only a Shaytan would say something like that and intend an insult...

Now that criminal al-Baghdadi maybe your hero, but he's surely not a hero of Islam!
Our heroes are the Sahabat al-kiram - radhiallahu 'anhum - and the likes of Sultan Salah al-Din and Sultan Muhammad al-Fatih and Sultan 'Abd al-Hamid II and 'Umar al-Mukhtar and other than them. These are our heroes, so bring us the like of them!

I notice you mention only 4 Muslim "heroes" specifically- and half of them are Ottoman Turks.

Maybe, maybe not. Posting a Du'a on the day someone dies would never stand up in any court of law as "material support" or "sympathy" for terrorism; unless of course it was a kangaroo court set up by Shayateen who see fellow Muslims as threats and must use Disbelievers and irrational fear to malign and slander.

That is the weakest evidence ever presented to accuse someone of "sympathy" for anything, much less a "terrorist" organization.

Just wow...

[AbuNajm]

Any current day heroes?

Of course not. Although if we were to use his brand of "logic" and deduction, we would assume that his heroes are all either Free Syrian Army, Syrian Democratic Forces, and pro-coalition Sunni Iraqi tribes OR Shi'ah militia groups. I'm leaning towards the latter, again, according to Abu Sulayman's brand of logic.