Proving that Najdi minded people (like AbuNajm) are lacking in knowledge and basic comprehension skills
The above proves two things:
- That you're lacking in your comprehension skills
- That you've not mastered the Hanbali Fiqh as you claimed elsewhere
As for your comprehension skills:
It's beyond me how you could understand Hadath as innovation and this with the above context given! Rather what is meant is incident and this is obvious.
A person may die on his way or loose his route or what is similar to this and thereby not be able to complete his Hajj.
As for mastering Hanbali Fiqh:
Someone who has studied the Hanbali Fiqh with a proper teacher could not fall into such an obvious mistake, which even a layman like me could easily detect. If you found the above passage difficult to understand - even though I don't see why it should be difficult! -, then you could have simply checked the chapter on the visitation of the grave of our noble Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - in other Hanbali works.
The statement is actually that of Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH) himself and it's in the context of whether one should start with visiting Madina or Makka first, so if it's one's first Hajj then one should take the shortest route to Makka al-mukarrama [in order to be able to complete the duty of Hajj] and otherwise one can also start with Madina al-munawwara according to the Imam.
Here for example from the Hanbali Fiqh work Kashaf al-Qina' 2/515 mentioning that one could die on the way and therefore take the shortest route to Makka al-mukarrama (for the one who dies on his way to Hajj is a Shahid):
ููุงูู) ุงููุฅูู ูุงู ู (ุฃูุญูู ูุฏู ุฅุฐูุง ุญูุฌูู ุงูููุฐูู ููู ู ููุญูุฌูู ููุทูู ููุนูููู ู ููู ุบูููุฑู ุทูุฑูููู ุงูุดููุงู ู ููุง ููุฃูุฎูุฐู ุนูููู ุทูุฑูููู ุงููู ูุฏููููุฉูุ ููุฃูููููู ุฅูู ุญูุฏูุซู ุจููู ุญูุฏูุซู ุงููู ูููุชู ููุงูู ููู ุณูุจูููู ุงููุญูุฌูู) ูููููู ู ููู ุณูุจูููู ุงูููููู ููููููููู ุดููููุฏูุงุ ุนูููู ู ูุง ุชูููุฏููู ู ุจูุญูุซููู ุนููู ุตูุงุญูุจู ุงููููุฑููุนู ููุนูุจูุงุฑูุฉู ุงูุดููุฑูุญู ููุดูุฑูุญู ุงููู ูููุชูููู: ููุง ููุฃูุฎูุฐู ุนูููู ุทูุฑูููู ุงููู ูุฏููููุฉู ููุฃููููู ุฃูุฎูุงูู ุฃููู ููุญูุฏูุซู ุจููู ุญูุฏูุซู ููููููุจูุบูู ุฃููู ููููุตูุฏู ู ููููุฉู ู ููู ุฃูููุตูุฑู ุงูุทููุฑูููู ููููุง ููุชูุดูุงุบููู ุจูุบูููุฑููู (ููุฅููู ููุงูู) ุงููุญูุฌูู (ุชูุทููููุนูุง ุจูุฏูุฃู ุจูุงููู ูุฏููููุฉู) ููุงูู ุงุจููู ููุตูุฑู ุงูููููู ููู ููุฐูุง: ุฅููู ุงูุฒููููุงุฑูุฉู ุฃูููุถููู ู ููู ุญูุฌูู ุงูุชููุทููููุนู ููุฅูููู ุญูุฌูู ุงููููุฑูุถู ุฃูููุถููู ู ูููููุง ุงููุชูููู ููููุชู: ููุฏู ููุชูููููููู ููู ุฐูููููุ ููุฅููููู ูุง ุฃูุฑูุงุฏู ุงููุฅูู ูุงู ู ุฃููู ููููุถูู ูู ุฅููู ููุตูุฏู ุงููุญูุฌูู ููุตูุฏู ุงูุฒููููุงุฑูุฉูุ ููููุซูุงุจู ุนูููููููู ูุง ุจูุฎูููุงูู ุญูุฌูู ุงููููุฑูุถู ููููู ูุญููุถู ุงูููููููุฉู ูููู
- end of quote -
Imam Taqi al-Din al-Subki [al-Shafi'i] (d. 756 AH) also mentioned in his Shifa` al-Siqam (see p. 192 - 194) that the Imam Ahmad mentioned the difference of opinion on this issue among the Salaf al-salih and brought several quotes from him including the above one mentioned by Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) and stated that the Hajj has a specified time (if one has intended performing it), so one should take the shortest route to in order not to miss its time and thereafter one can go to Madina al-Munawwara (and if it's a 'Umra, then one can also start with Madina al-munawwara).
The ironic thing here is that Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) is a direct student of Imam 'Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani (d. 561 AH) and has taken Tasawwuf from him! So he was literally a Sufi - obviously not one of these fake ones! - and the majority of the major scholars of the Hanabila were Sufiyya and this should be a known issue.
Then: This issue is not one of 'Aqida in the very first place, nor have the Hanabila and the Asha'ira differed on this greatly or criticized each other on this. Rather only the Hafidh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) - a Qadiri Sufi himself! - made a big issue out of it and even he was in no way as extreme as the Najdis on this.
So the Najdis are the elephant in the room with no predecessors for their ugly Takfir in this issue!
By the way: Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) believes that one can say the following in one's supplication "O Allah, I ask You and turn to You by Your Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam), the Prophet of mercy. O Muhammad, I turn by you to My Lord and your Lord, mighty and majestic is He, for Him to settle my need for me." and this while being thousand miles away from the blessed grave!
What a "Quburi" and "caller to polytheism", right?!
No, this is just the result of you completely misunderstanding everything as already shown above (in reality the issue was simply about whether one should first go to Madina or to Makka).
He started the chapter by literally stating that it's recommended / desirable to visit the grave of our Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam)! It's really frightening how you could misunderstand such clear passages!
Guess you should start realizing that the classical scholars had no "visiting the Prophetic grave leads to Shirk akbar"-hallucinations like the wretched Najdis and their heretic leader and false prophet Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH).
Seriously? I mean really? Did you even read the passage?
Let's see what Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) actually said:
ููููุฑูููู ุนููู ุงููุนูุชูุจููููุ ููุงูู: ููููุช ุฌูุงููุณูุง ุนูููุฏู ููุจูุฑู ุงููููุจูููู - ุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู ู - ููุฌูุงุกู ุฃูุนูุฑูุงุจููููุ ููููุงูู: ุงูุณููููุงู ู ุนูููููู ููุง ุฑูุณูููู ุงููููููุ ุณูู ูุนูุช ุงูููููู ููููููู: {ูููููู ุฃููููููู ู ุฅูุฐู ุธูููู ููุง ุฃูููููุณูููู ู ุฌูุงุกูููู ููุงุณูุชูุบูููุฑููุง ุงูููููู ููุงุณูุชูุบูููุฑู ููููู ู ุงูุฑููุณูููู ููููุฌูุฏููุง ุงูููููู ุชููููุงุจูุง ุฑูุญููู ูุง} [ุงููุณุงุก: 64] .ููููุฏู ุฌูุฆูุชูู ู ูุณูุชูุบูููุฑูุง ููุฐูููุจููุ ู ูุณูุชูุดูููุนูุง ุจูู ุฅููู ุฑูุจูููุ ุซูู ูู ุฃูููุดูุฃู ููููููู:ููุง ุฎูููุฑู ู ููู ุฏูููููุชู ุจูุงููููุงุนู ุฃูุนูุธูู ููู ... ููุทูุงุจู ู ููู ุทููุจูููููู ุงููููุงุนู ููุงููุฃูููู ูููููุณูู ุงููููุฏูุงุกู ููููุจูุฑู ุฃูููุชู ุณูุงูููููู ... ููููู ุงููุนูููุงูู ููููููู ุงููุฌููุฏู ููุงููููุฑูู ูุซูู ูู ุงููุตูุฑููู ุงููุฃูุนูุฑูุงุจููููุ ููุญูู ูููุชูููู ุนููููููุ ููููู ูุชุ ููุฑูุฃูููุช ุงููููุจูููู - ุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู ู - ููู ุงููููููู ูุ ููููุงูู: ููุง ุนูุชูุจููููุ ุงููุญููู ุงููุฃูุนูุฑูุงุจููููุ ููุจูุดููุฑููู ุฃูููู ุงูููููู ููุฏู ุบูููุฑู ูููู.ููููุณูุชูุญูุจูู ููู ููู ุฏูุฎููู ุงููู ูุณูุฌูุฏู ุฃููู ููููุฏููู ู ุฑูุฌููููู ุงููููู ููููุ ุซูู ูู ููููููู: ยซุจูุณูู ู ุงููููููุ ููุงูุตููููุงุฉู ููุงูุณููููุงู ู ุนูููู ุฑูุณูููู ุงููููููุ ุงููููููู ูู ุตูููู ุนูููู ู ูุญูู ููุฏู ููุนูููู ุขูู ู ูุญูู ููุฏูุ ููุงุบูููุฑู ูููุ ููุงููุชูุญู ููู ุฃูุจูููุงุจู ุฑูุญูู ูุชูู. ููุฅูุฐูุง ุฎูุฑูุฌูุ ููุงูู ู ูุซููู ุฐููููู. ููููุงูู: ููุงููุชูุญู ููู ุฃูุจูููุงุจู ููุถูููููยปููู ูุง ุฑููููู ุนููู ููุงุทูู ูุฉู ุจูููุชู ุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู - ุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู ู - ููุฑูุถูู ุงูููููู ุนูููููุง ุฃูููู ุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู - ุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู ู - ุนููููู ูููุง ุฃููู ุชูููููู ุฐูููููุ ุฅุฐูุง ุฏูุฎูููุชู ุงููู ูุณูุฌูุฏู. ุซูู ูู ุชูุฃูุชูู ุงููููุจูุฑู ููุชููููููู ุธูููุฑููู ุงููููุจูููุฉูุ ููุชูุณูุชูููุจููู ููุณูุทูููุ ููุชูููููู: ุงูุณููููุงู ู ุนูููููู ุฃููููููุง ุงููููุจูููู ููุฑูุญูู ูุฉู ุงูููููู ููุจูุฑูููุงุชูููุ ุงูุณููููุงู ู ุนููููููู ููุง ููุจูููู ุงููููููุ ููุฎููุฑูุชููู ู ููู ุฎููููููู ููุนูุจูุงุฏูููุ ุฃูุดูููุฏู ุฃููู ููุง ุฅูููู ุฅูููุง ุงูููููู ููุญูุฏููู ููุง ุดูุฑูููู ููููุ ููุฃูุดูููุฏู ุฃูููู ู ูุญูู ููุฏูุง ุนูุจูุฏููู ููุฑูุณููููููุ ุฃูุดูููุฏู ุฃููููู ููุฏู ุจููููุบูุช ุฑูุณูุงููุงุชู ุฑูุจูููุ ููููุตูุญูุช ููุฃูู ููุชููุ ููุฏูุนูููุช ุฅููู ุณูุจูููู ุฑูุจููู ุจูุงููุญูููู ูุฉู ููุงููู ูููุนูุธูุฉู ุงููุญูุณูููุฉูุ ููุนูุจูุฏูุช ุงูููููู ุญูุชููู ุฃูุชูุงู ุงูููููููููุ ููุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนูููููู ููุซููุฑูุงุ ููู ูุง ููุญูุจูู ุฑูุจููููุง ููููุฑูุถููุ ุงููููููู ูู ุงุฌูุฒู ุนููููุง ููุจููููููุง ุฃูููุถููู ู ูุง ุฌูุฒูููุช ุฃูุญูุฏูุง ู ููู ุงููููุจููููููู ููุงููู ูุฑูุณููููููุ ููุงุจูุนูุซููู ุงููู ูููุงู ู ุงููู ูุญูู ููุฏู ุงูููุฐูู ููุนูุฏูุชูุ ููุบูุจูุทููู ุจููู ุงููุฃููููููููู ููุงููุขุฎูุฑููููุ ุงููููููู ูู ุตูููู ุนูููู ู ูุญูู ููุฏู ููุนูููู ุขูู ู ูุญูู ููุฏูุ ููู ูุง ุตููููููุช ุนูููู ุฅุจูุฑูุงูููู ู ููุขูู ุฅุจูุฑูุงูููู ูุ ุฅูููู ุญูู ููุฏู ู ูุฌููุฏูุ ููุจูุงุฑููู ุนูููู ู ูุญูู ููุฏู ููุนูููู ุขูู ู ูุญูู ููุฏูุ ููู ูุง ุจูุงุฑูููุช ุนูููู ุฅุจูุฑูุงูููู ู ููุขูู ุฅุจูุฑูุงูููู ูุ ุฅูููู ุญูู ููุฏู ู ูุฌููุฏูุ ุงููููููู ูู ุฅูููู ููููุช ููููููููู ุงููุญูููู: {ูููููู ุฃููููููู ู ุฅูุฐู ุธูููู ููุง ุฃูููููุณูููู ู ุฌูุงุกูููู ููุงุณูุชูุบูููุฑููุง ุงูููููู ููุงุณูุชูุบูููุฑู ููููู ู ุงูุฑููุณูููู ููููุฌูุฏููุง ุงูููููู ุชููููุงุจูุง ุฑูุญููู ูุง} [ุงููุณุงุก: 64] . ููููุฏู ุฃูุชูููุชูู ู ูุณูุชูุบูููุฑูุง ู ููู ุฐููููุจููุ ู ูุณูุชูุดูููุนูุง ุจูู ุฅููู ุฑูุจูููุ ููุฃูุณูุฃูููู ููุง ุฑูุจูู ุฃููู ุชููุฌูุจู ููู ุงููู ูุบูููุฑูุฉูุ ููู ูุง ุฃูููุฌูุจูุชููุง ููู ููู ุฃูุชูุงูู ููู ุญูููุงุชูููุ ุงููููููู ูู ุงุฌูุนููููู ุฃูููููู ุงูุดููุงููุนููููุ ููุฃูููุฌูุญู ุงูุณููุงุฆููููููุ ููุฃูููุฑูู ู ุงููุขุฎูุฑูููู ููุงููุฃูููููููููุ ุจูุฑูุญูู ูุชูู ููุง ุฃูุฑูุญูู ู ุงูุฑููุงุญูู ูููู
So here we see that Imam Ibn Qudama first mentions the story of al-'Utbi - which contains the wording "wa qad ji`tuka mustaghfiran li dhanbi, mustashfi'an bika ila rabbi" - and then later he himself says that one should use the following wording "wa qad ataytuka mustaghfiran min dhunubi, mustashif'an bika ila rabbi" (which is almost the very same wording and the part with seeking intercession (!) is the same word for word!), but somehow to you he did not recommend to act upon it?!?!
I'm speechless at this epic fail of yours! And then it's me who's dishonest, right?
So your lack of comprehension skills applies to the English language also? Did I even say that disagreeing with the Jumhur view is disbelief? NO!
Rather I stated that to regard someone who acts upon something legislated in the Shari'a (like acting upon the Hadith of the blind man or acting upon the Aya 4:64, because it's general) as "a polytheist" for this, is disbelief in itself.
Before you DARE to accuse the major and leading scholars of this Umma of Shirk (!), go and improve your comprehension skills!
In the very first post of this thread I quoted a scholarly statement in summary of this issue and in it it's acknowledged that calling the creation in the issues in the manner one calls one's Lord alone is abominable (and therefore forbidden; and this is something that the Rafidha are guilty of for example) and may even reach the level of disbelief if one believes that the creation has real influence (Ta`thir) instead or alongside Allah ta'ala.
I even acknowledged elsewhere that the Hafidh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) did have actually a point, but since he attacked the correct forms of Tawassul / Tashaffu' / Istighatha - to the degree of disallowing what is legislated in the Shari'a - alongside what was mentioned before (from the exaggeration that happens from some ignorant people) the scholars criticized him.
(I would advice one to read what the 'Allama Sulayman bin 'Abd al-Wahhab - who agrees with the Hafidh Ibn Taymiyya on the issue of Istighatha - stated :"'Allama Sulayman bin 'Abd al-Wahhab al-Hanbali (d. 1208 AH): Some of his statements in response to the ignorance of his brother IAW")
As for the Najdis: Then they were regarding people as polytheists for the simple asking for intercession from the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (the very thing that Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) and the rest of the classical scholars supported!) and I've already quoted them on this HERE. They have literally no Salaf for this ugly Takfir!
Originally posted by AbuNajm
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- That you're lacking in your comprehension skills
- That you've not mastered the Hanbali Fiqh as you claimed elsewhere
As for your comprehension skills:
It's beyond me how you could understand Hadath as innovation and this with the above context given! Rather what is meant is incident and this is obvious.
A person may die on his way or loose his route or what is similar to this and thereby not be able to complete his Hajj.
As for mastering Hanbali Fiqh:
Someone who has studied the Hanbali Fiqh with a proper teacher could not fall into such an obvious mistake, which even a layman like me could easily detect. If you found the above passage difficult to understand - even though I don't see why it should be difficult! -, then you could have simply checked the chapter on the visitation of the grave of our noble Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - in other Hanbali works.
The statement is actually that of Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH) himself and it's in the context of whether one should start with visiting Madina or Makka first, so if it's one's first Hajj then one should take the shortest route to Makka al-mukarrama [in order to be able to complete the duty of Hajj] and otherwise one can also start with Madina al-munawwara according to the Imam.
Here for example from the Hanbali Fiqh work Kashaf al-Qina' 2/515 mentioning that one could die on the way and therefore take the shortest route to Makka al-mukarrama (for the one who dies on his way to Hajj is a Shahid):
ููุงูู) ุงููุฅูู ูุงู ู (ุฃูุญูู ูุฏู ุฅุฐูุง ุญูุฌูู ุงูููุฐูู ููู ู ููุญูุฌูู ููุทูู ููุนูููู ู ููู ุบูููุฑู ุทูุฑูููู ุงูุดููุงู ู ููุง ููุฃูุฎูุฐู ุนูููู ุทูุฑูููู ุงููู ูุฏููููุฉูุ ููุฃูููููู ุฅูู ุญูุฏูุซู ุจููู ุญูุฏูุซู ุงููู ูููุชู ููุงูู ููู ุณูุจูููู ุงููุญูุฌูู) ูููููู ู ููู ุณูุจูููู ุงูููููู ููููููููู ุดููููุฏูุงุ ุนูููู ู ูุง ุชูููุฏููู ู ุจูุญูุซููู ุนููู ุตูุงุญูุจู ุงููููุฑููุนู ููุนูุจูุงุฑูุฉู ุงูุดููุฑูุญู ููุดูุฑูุญู ุงููู ูููุชูููู: ููุง ููุฃูุฎูุฐู ุนูููู ุทูุฑูููู ุงููู ูุฏููููุฉู ููุฃููููู ุฃูุฎูุงูู ุฃููู ููุญูุฏูุซู ุจููู ุญูุฏูุซู ููููููุจูุบูู ุฃููู ููููุตูุฏู ู ููููุฉู ู ููู ุฃูููุตูุฑู ุงูุทููุฑูููู ููููุง ููุชูุดูุงุบููู ุจูุบูููุฑููู (ููุฅููู ููุงูู) ุงููุญูุฌูู (ุชูุทููููุนูุง ุจูุฏูุฃู ุจูุงููู ูุฏููููุฉู) ููุงูู ุงุจููู ููุตูุฑู ุงูููููู ููู ููุฐูุง: ุฅููู ุงูุฒููููุงุฑูุฉู ุฃูููุถููู ู ููู ุญูุฌูู ุงูุชููุทููููุนู ููุฅูููู ุญูุฌูู ุงููููุฑูุถู ุฃูููุถููู ู ูููููุง ุงููุชูููู ููููุชู: ููุฏู ููุชูููููููู ููู ุฐูููููุ ููุฅููููู ูุง ุฃูุฑูุงุฏู ุงููุฅูู ูุงู ู ุฃููู ููููุถูู ูู ุฅููู ููุตูุฏู ุงููุญูุฌูู ููุตูุฏู ุงูุฒููููุงุฑูุฉูุ ููููุซูุงุจู ุนูููููููู ูุง ุจูุฎูููุงูู ุญูุฌูู ุงููููุฑูุถู ููููู ูุญููุถู ุงูููููููุฉู ูููู
- end of quote -
Imam Taqi al-Din al-Subki [al-Shafi'i] (d. 756 AH) also mentioned in his Shifa` al-Siqam (see p. 192 - 194) that the Imam Ahmad mentioned the difference of opinion on this issue among the Salaf al-salih and brought several quotes from him including the above one mentioned by Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) and stated that the Hajj has a specified time (if one has intended performing it), so one should take the shortest route to in order not to miss its time and thereafter one can go to Madina al-Munawwara (and if it's a 'Umra, then one can also start with Madina al-munawwara).
Originally posted by AbuNajm
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Then: This issue is not one of 'Aqida in the very first place, nor have the Hanabila and the Asha'ira differed on this greatly or criticized each other on this. Rather only the Hafidh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) - a Qadiri Sufi himself! - made a big issue out of it and even he was in no way as extreme as the Najdis on this.
So the Najdis are the elephant in the room with no predecessors for their ugly Takfir in this issue!
By the way: Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) believes that one can say the following in one's supplication "O Allah, I ask You and turn to You by Your Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam), the Prophet of mercy. O Muhammad, I turn by you to My Lord and your Lord, mighty and majestic is He, for Him to settle my need for me." and this while being thousand miles away from the blessed grave!
What a "Quburi" and "caller to polytheism", right?!
Originally posted by AbuNajm
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He started the chapter by literally stating that it's recommended / desirable to visit the grave of our Prophet (sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam)! It's really frightening how you could misunderstand such clear passages!
Guess you should start realizing that the classical scholars had no "visiting the Prophetic grave leads to Shirk akbar"-hallucinations like the wretched Najdis and their heretic leader and false prophet Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH).
Originally posted by AbuNajm
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Let's see what Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) actually said:
ููููุฑูููู ุนููู ุงููุนูุชูุจููููุ ููุงูู: ููููุช ุฌูุงููุณูุง ุนูููุฏู ููุจูุฑู ุงููููุจูููู - ุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู ู - ููุฌูุงุกู ุฃูุนูุฑูุงุจููููุ ููููุงูู: ุงูุณููููุงู ู ุนูููููู ููุง ุฑูุณูููู ุงููููููุ ุณูู ูุนูุช ุงูููููู ููููููู: {ูููููู ุฃููููููู ู ุฅูุฐู ุธูููู ููุง ุฃูููููุณูููู ู ุฌูุงุกูููู ููุงุณูุชูุบูููุฑููุง ุงูููููู ููุงุณูุชูุบูููุฑู ููููู ู ุงูุฑููุณูููู ููููุฌูุฏููุง ุงูููููู ุชููููุงุจูุง ุฑูุญููู ูุง} [ุงููุณุงุก: 64] .ููููุฏู ุฌูุฆูุชูู ู ูุณูุชูุบูููุฑูุง ููุฐูููุจููุ ู ูุณูุชูุดูููุนูุง ุจูู ุฅููู ุฑูุจูููุ ุซูู ูู ุฃูููุดูุฃู ููููููู:ููุง ุฎูููุฑู ู ููู ุฏูููููุชู ุจูุงููููุงุนู ุฃูุนูุธูู ููู ... ููุทูุงุจู ู ููู ุทููุจูููููู ุงููููุงุนู ููุงููุฃูููู ูููููุณูู ุงููููุฏูุงุกู ููููุจูุฑู ุฃูููุชู ุณูุงูููููู ... ููููู ุงููุนูููุงูู ููููููู ุงููุฌููุฏู ููุงููููุฑูู ูุซูู ูู ุงููุตูุฑููู ุงููุฃูุนูุฑูุงุจููููุ ููุญูู ูููุชูููู ุนููููููุ ููููู ูุชุ ููุฑูุฃูููุช ุงููููุจูููู - ุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู ู - ููู ุงููููููู ูุ ููููุงูู: ููุง ุนูุชูุจููููุ ุงููุญููู ุงููุฃูุนูุฑูุงุจููููุ ููุจูุดููุฑููู ุฃูููู ุงูููููู ููุฏู ุบูููุฑู ูููู.ููููุณูุชูุญูุจูู ููู ููู ุฏูุฎููู ุงููู ูุณูุฌูุฏู ุฃููู ููููุฏููู ู ุฑูุฌููููู ุงููููู ููููุ ุซูู ูู ููููููู: ยซุจูุณูู ู ุงููููููุ ููุงูุตููููุงุฉู ููุงูุณููููุงู ู ุนูููู ุฑูุณูููู ุงููููููุ ุงููููููู ูู ุตูููู ุนูููู ู ูุญูู ููุฏู ููุนูููู ุขูู ู ูุญูู ููุฏูุ ููุงุบูููุฑู ูููุ ููุงููุชูุญู ููู ุฃูุจูููุงุจู ุฑูุญูู ูุชูู. ููุฅูุฐูุง ุฎูุฑูุฌูุ ููุงูู ู ูุซููู ุฐููููู. ููููุงูู: ููุงููุชูุญู ููู ุฃูุจูููุงุจู ููุถูููููยปููู ูุง ุฑููููู ุนููู ููุงุทูู ูุฉู ุจูููุชู ุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู - ุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู ู - ููุฑูุถูู ุงูููููู ุนูููููุง ุฃูููู ุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู - ุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู ู - ุนููููู ูููุง ุฃููู ุชูููููู ุฐูููููุ ุฅุฐูุง ุฏูุฎูููุชู ุงููู ูุณูุฌูุฏู. ุซูู ูู ุชูุฃูุชูู ุงููููุจูุฑู ููุชููููููู ุธูููุฑููู ุงููููุจูููุฉูุ ููุชูุณูุชูููุจููู ููุณูุทูููุ ููุชูููููู: ุงูุณููููุงู ู ุนูููููู ุฃููููููุง ุงููููุจูููู ููุฑูุญูู ูุฉู ุงูููููู ููุจูุฑูููุงุชูููุ ุงูุณููููุงู ู ุนููููููู ููุง ููุจูููู ุงููููููุ ููุฎููุฑูุชููู ู ููู ุฎููููููู ููุนูุจูุงุฏูููุ ุฃูุดูููุฏู ุฃููู ููุง ุฅูููู ุฅูููุง ุงูููููู ููุญูุฏููู ููุง ุดูุฑูููู ููููุ ููุฃูุดูููุฏู ุฃูููู ู ูุญูู ููุฏูุง ุนูุจูุฏููู ููุฑูุณููููููุ ุฃูุดูููุฏู ุฃููููู ููุฏู ุจููููุบูุช ุฑูุณูุงููุงุชู ุฑูุจูููุ ููููุตูุญูุช ููุฃูู ููุชููุ ููุฏูุนูููุช ุฅููู ุณูุจูููู ุฑูุจููู ุจูุงููุญูููู ูุฉู ููุงููู ูููุนูุธูุฉู ุงููุญูุณูููุฉูุ ููุนูุจูุฏูุช ุงูููููู ุญูุชููู ุฃูุชูุงู ุงูููููููููุ ููุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนูููููู ููุซููุฑูุงุ ููู ูุง ููุญูุจูู ุฑูุจููููุง ููููุฑูุถููุ ุงููููููู ูู ุงุฌูุฒู ุนููููุง ููุจููููููุง ุฃูููุถููู ู ูุง ุฌูุฒูููุช ุฃูุญูุฏูุง ู ููู ุงููููุจููููููู ููุงููู ูุฑูุณููููููุ ููุงุจูุนูุซููู ุงููู ูููุงู ู ุงููู ูุญูู ููุฏู ุงูููุฐูู ููุนูุฏูุชูุ ููุบูุจูุทููู ุจููู ุงููุฃููููููููู ููุงููุขุฎูุฑููููุ ุงููููููู ูู ุตูููู ุนูููู ู ูุญูู ููุฏู ููุนูููู ุขูู ู ูุญูู ููุฏูุ ููู ูุง ุตููููููุช ุนูููู ุฅุจูุฑูุงูููู ู ููุขูู ุฅุจูุฑูุงูููู ูุ ุฅูููู ุญูู ููุฏู ู ูุฌููุฏูุ ููุจูุงุฑููู ุนูููู ู ูุญูู ููุฏู ููุนูููู ุขูู ู ูุญูู ููุฏูุ ููู ูุง ุจูุงุฑูููุช ุนูููู ุฅุจูุฑูุงูููู ู ููุขูู ุฅุจูุฑูุงูููู ูุ ุฅูููู ุญูู ููุฏู ู ูุฌููุฏูุ ุงููููููู ูู ุฅูููู ููููุช ููููููููู ุงููุญูููู: {ูููููู ุฃููููููู ู ุฅูุฐู ุธูููู ููุง ุฃูููููุณูููู ู ุฌูุงุกูููู ููุงุณูุชูุบูููุฑููุง ุงูููููู ููุงุณูุชูุบูููุฑู ููููู ู ุงูุฑููุณูููู ููููุฌูุฏููุง ุงูููููู ุชููููุงุจูุง ุฑูุญููู ูุง} [ุงููุณุงุก: 64] . ููููุฏู ุฃูุชูููุชูู ู ูุณูุชูุบูููุฑูุง ู ููู ุฐููููุจููุ ู ูุณูุชูุดูููุนูุง ุจูู ุฅููู ุฑูุจูููุ ููุฃูุณูุฃูููู ููุง ุฑูุจูู ุฃููู ุชููุฌูุจู ููู ุงููู ูุบูููุฑูุฉูุ ููู ูุง ุฃูููุฌูุจูุชููุง ููู ููู ุฃูุชูุงูู ููู ุญูููุงุชูููุ ุงููููููู ูู ุงุฌูุนููููู ุฃูููููู ุงูุดููุงููุนููููุ ููุฃูููุฌูุญู ุงูุณููุงุฆููููููุ ููุฃูููุฑูู ู ุงููุขุฎูุฑูููู ููุงููุฃูููููููููุ ุจูุฑูุญูู ูุชูู ููุง ุฃูุฑูุญูู ู ุงูุฑููุงุญูู ูููู
So here we see that Imam Ibn Qudama first mentions the story of al-'Utbi - which contains the wording "wa qad ji`tuka mustaghfiran li dhanbi, mustashfi'an bika ila rabbi" - and then later he himself says that one should use the following wording "wa qad ataytuka mustaghfiran min dhunubi, mustashif'an bika ila rabbi" (which is almost the very same wording and the part with seeking intercession (!) is the same word for word!), but somehow to you he did not recommend to act upon it?!?!
I'm speechless at this epic fail of yours! And then it's me who's dishonest, right?
Originally posted by AbuNajm
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Rather I stated that to regard someone who acts upon something legislated in the Shari'a (like acting upon the Hadith of the blind man or acting upon the Aya 4:64, because it's general) as "a polytheist" for this, is disbelief in itself.
Originally posted by AbuNajm
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In the very first post of this thread I quoted a scholarly statement in summary of this issue and in it it's acknowledged that calling the creation in the issues in the manner one calls one's Lord alone is abominable (and therefore forbidden; and this is something that the Rafidha are guilty of for example) and may even reach the level of disbelief if one believes that the creation has real influence (Ta`thir) instead or alongside Allah ta'ala.
I even acknowledged elsewhere that the Hafidh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) did have actually a point, but since he attacked the correct forms of Tawassul / Tashaffu' / Istighatha - to the degree of disallowing what is legislated in the Shari'a - alongside what was mentioned before (from the exaggeration that happens from some ignorant people) the scholars criticized him.
(I would advice one to read what the 'Allama Sulayman bin 'Abd al-Wahhab - who agrees with the Hafidh Ibn Taymiyya on the issue of Istighatha - stated :"'Allama Sulayman bin 'Abd al-Wahhab al-Hanbali (d. 1208 AH): Some of his statements in response to the ignorance of his brother IAW")
As for the Najdis: Then they were regarding people as polytheists for the simple asking for intercession from the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - (the very thing that Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) and the rest of the classical scholars supported!) and I've already quoted them on this HERE. They have literally no Salaf for this ugly Takfir!
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