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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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  • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

    It doesn't matter what most people do. Not all form involves going to graves. There is the 'name-drop' form where you mention names of people... which doesn't make much sense.
    Can you name the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah who said the "name drop" form is permissible?

    You still haven't answered the question as to "why the vast majority of duas should contain tawassul?"
    Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 13-10-20, 04:29 PM.
    My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

      You.
      Then why are you addressing the questions to someone else... do you have problems with your mental health?


      ...Has Allah made you heart hard?
      Being harsh against dishonesty is a sign of a healthy heart. Are you soft on dishonesty?

      Comment


      • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

        blah blah blah blah blah blah....
        A timely acknowledgment of your foolishness except you don't win a prize for that.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

          A timely acknowledgment of your foolishness except you don't win a prize for that.

          It doesn't matter what most people do. Not all form involves going to graves. There is the 'name-drop' form where you mention names of people... which doesn't make much sense.
          Can you name the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah who said the "name drop" form is permissible?

          You still haven't answered the question as to "why the vast majority of duas should contain tawassul?"
          My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

          Comment


          • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

            Can you name the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah who said the "name drop" form is permissible?

            You still haven't answered the question as to "why the vast majority of duas should contain tawassul?"
            Quote the post where the question was asked.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

              You claim to be aware of the different forms and methods. Then you should also know most people don't spend their time at the graves, so why would the vast majority of duas involve tawassul?
              There
              My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

              Comment


              • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                There
                It was a loaded question with the dishonest implication that the vast majority of duas seeking intercession are made at graves, and it was answered in the reply to that post.

                Also, I'm surprised you missed this post... I painstakingly wrote it in your language.

                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                Imagine you were guaranteed intercession by the messenger of Allah What an honour that would be. You would give up everything just for the opportunity to ask.

                The dua of rasoolullah is more than the dua of anyone else.

                Yet the messenger of Allah didn't encourage everyone to seek his intercession. In fact, instances of advising people to do this are scarce.

                If the best dua is the dua of the messenger of Allah then surely ALL of our duas should be done by in that manner. Yet, again, it's not from the Sunnah. Every dua from the Sunnah, bar these one or two exceptions, doesn't involve seeking intercession in the manner of the blind man.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                  Then why are you addressing the questions to someone else... do you have problems with your mental health?
                  My mental state is fine, I thank you for asking.

                  Being harsh against dishonesty is a sign of a healthy heart. Are you soft on dishonesty?
                  He was not being dishonest...

                  It was narrated from Abu Bakrah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

                  “Modesty is part of faith, and faith will be in Paradise. Obscenity in speech is part of harshness and harshness will be in Hell.’”

                  - Sanan Ibn Majah Vol. 5, Book 37, Hadith 4184
                  It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah(ﷺ) said:

                  "Allah is Gentle and loves gentleness, and He grants reward for it that He does not grant for harshness."

                  - Sunan Ibn Majah Vol. 5, Book 33, Hadith 3688
                  Narrated Abu Masud:

                  The Prophet (ﷺ) beckoned with his hand towards Yemen and said, "Belief is there." The harshness and mercilessness are the qualities of those farmers etc, who are busy with their camels and pay no attention to the religion (is towards the east) from where the side of the head of Satan will appear; those are the tribes of Rabi`a and Mudar.

                  - Sahih al-Bukhari: Chapter: The arrival of Al-Ash’ariyun and the people of Yemen. Sahih al-Bukhari 4387

                  Imam Bukhari writes his own chapter titles.
                  Narrated Abi Mas`ud:

                  The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "From this side from the east, afflictions will appear. Rudeness and lack of mercy are characteristics of the rural bedouins who are busy with their camels and cows (and pay no attention to religion). Such are the tribes of Rabi`a and Mudar."

                  - Sahih al-Bukhari: Chapter: Virtue of the Quraysh: Hadith 3498
                  Abu Abdullah, I wonder if you kiss your children...

                  Anyway, I believe you are an Arab.

                  I am interested - what is your lineage? To which tribe do you belong?

                  Also can you confirm to me your Aqeedah is the same as Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab al-Tamimi, and Ibn Taymiyyah al-Numayri? (Tribes of Banu Tamim and Banu Nuymayr were both najdi, eastern, bedouin tribes descended from Rabi'a and Mudar). Ibn Taymiyyah was known for his temper and harshness, and Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab was far worse than Ibn Taymiyyah in that regards. I mean at least we can call Ibn Taymiyyah a scholar and not some savage...

                  Abu Hasan al-Ash'ari by comparison was from Yemen, of the Ash'ariyun. Many of these yemenites spread Islam, especially through trade. They were, and still are, people of Tasawwuf and Tazkiya, of pure heart and demeanor.

                  Anyway, I ask regarding your background as it seems to me that whatever it is, you have adopted the traits of certain Najdi tribesmen of Rabi'a and Mudar. Perhaps you are unrelated, but it seems that at least such people from them educated you.

                  It is unfortunate. There were amongst them the best of this Ummah during the beginning period and even some of our period (the like of Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud Radiyallahu An and Ibn Kullab Rahimullah Alay). Of the Khalaf, King Faisal, may Allah forgive him, was also amongst them. But it seems a group of these people are harsh hearted, ignorant and arrogant.
                  Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                  Yet, the vast majority of duas do not involve tawassul.

                  Very strange.
                  Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib:

                  The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) heard a man saying: O Allah, I ask Thee, I bear witness that there is no god but Thou, the One, He to Whom men repair, Who has not begotten, and has not been begotten, and to Whom no one is equal, and he said: You have supplicated Allah using His Greatest Name, when asked with this name He gives, and when supplicated by this name he answers.

                  - Sunan Abi Dawud 1493
                  And Imam Abu Dawud writes his Sunnan to only bring hadith related to Ahkam, legal rulings, and he brings the Hadith of Buraydah and others who affirm calling on Allah by his greatest name in the Book of Salah in his Sunnan. And Imam Abu Dawud would not bring such a Hadith like this if the hadith did not apply. And Imam Abu Dawud knows better than both of us the difference between al-Hukm al-Khass and al-Hukm al-Amm'. And Imam Abu Dawud Rahimullah Alay is not an idiot.

                  And yet the vast majority of duas do not use what Buraydah has said.

                  Very strange.




                  Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                  "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                  Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                  Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                  1/116

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
                    My mental state is fine, I thank you for asking...
                    Do you normally speak to people and refer to them as if they're not there?


                    ...He was not being dishonest...
                    Do you believe it's honest to attribute an opinion to someone based only an assumption?


                    ...And Imam Abu Dawud writes his Sunnan to only bring hadith related to Ahkam, legal rulings, and he brings the Hadith of Buraydah and others who affirm calling on Allah by his greatest name in the Book of Salah in his Sunnan. And Imam Abu Dawud would not bring such a Hadith like this if the hadith did not apply. And Imam Abu Dawud knows better than both of us the difference between al-Hukm al-Khass and al-Hukm al-Amm'. And Imam Abu Dawud Rahimullah Alay is not an idiot.

                    And yet the vast majority of duas do not use what Buraydah has said.

                    Very strange....

                    ...Do you understand the difference between specific wording in a specific dua made by a specific person, and a general principle? It seems not.

                    Not strange at all considering...
                    Are you sure everything is alright upstairs? You are repeating yourself for no reason at all...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                      Imagine you were guaranteed intercession by the messenger of Allah What an honour that would be. You would give up everything just for the opportunity to ask.

                      The dua of rasoolullah is more than the dua of anyone else.

                      Yet the messenger of Allah didn't encourage everyone to seek his intercession. In fact, instances of advising people to do this are scarce.

                      If the best dua is the dua of the messenger of Allah then surely ALL of our duas should be done by in that manner. Yet, again, it's not from the Sunnah. Every dua from the Sunnah, bar these one or two exceptions, doesn't involve seeking intercession in the manner of the blind man.
                      Your complaint is to Allah and His Messenger not us because it was Allah and His Messenger ﷺ who revealed the Quran and Sunnah in the way that they did, we simply just follow the Quran and Sunnah, and know that there is a wisdom behind everything that Allah decrees.
                      Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 13-10-20, 07:06 PM.
                      My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                        Your complaint is to Allah and His Messenger https://www.ummah.com/forum/core/ima...lies/saws2.gif not us because it was Allah and His Messenger who revealed the Quran and Sunnah in the way that they did, we simply just follow the Quran and Sunnah, and know that there is a wisdom behind everything that Allah decrees.
                        Allah and his messenger didn't instruct us to seek intercession in this way.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                          Allah and his messenger didn't instruct us to seek intercession in this way.
                          The Sunnah was preserved in two ways, hadith and amal. Amal is the practice of the Sahaba and tabieen and tabi tabieen. In the time of the Salaf, Amal was the main method of learning the Sunnah. This was the method used by Imam Malik, Imam Layth, and Imam Suyan al Thawri. Imam Abu Hanifa actually differed with these Imams concerning Amal and preferred hadith. You could say, Imam Abu Hanifa is the father of Ahlul Hadith, from Abu Hanifa came Imam Shafi and Imam Ahmad. In the Maliki madhab, Amal of Medinah is the main source of the Sunnah.

                          The Sahaba performed Tawassul, and he had to learn it from someone. So I cannot say for certain that the Prophet ﷺ did not teach or instruct tawassul.


                          And Allah knows best.
                          Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 13-10-20, 07:20 PM.
                          My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                            The Sunnah was preserved in two ways, hadith and amal. Amal is the practice of the Sahaba and tabieen and tabi tabieen. In the time of the Salaf, Amal was the main method of learning the Sunnah. This was the method used by Imam Malik, Imam Layth, and Imam Suyan al Thawri. Imam Abu Hanifa actually differed with these Imams concerning Amal and preferred hadith. You could say, Imam Abu Hanifa is the father of Ahlul Hadith, from Abu Hanifa came Imam Shafi and Imam Ahmad.

                            The Sahaba performed Tawassul, and he had to learn it from someone. And Allah knows best.
                            No idea how any of this is relevant.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                              No idea how any of this is relevant.
                              That's because you are not knowledgeable in the religion and you haven't studied Islam with the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah.
                              My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                                That's because you are not knowledgeable in the religion and you haven't studied Islam with the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah.
                                You can't explain how it's relevant either.

                                I wish I did study with scholars so I too can make false attributions to them. A true hallmark of 'Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah.'

                                Comment

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