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Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

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  • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
    This seems like an interesting discussion.



    My brother, I hope you do not mind me asking you a question regarding a problem I find difficult to solve.

    I want you to help me resolve it.

    The Man of Ahlul Biddah

    Suppose a man is of Ahlul Biddah.

    Like all of Ahlul Biddah, this man and his shuyukh consider themselves to be a part of Ahlus Sunnah, though they are not a part of it. Now his shuyukh in Ahlul Biddah quote the Salaf saying don't sit with Ahlul Biddah etc. So he never decides to go and sit and listen to those on the straight path. Whenever a lecture, or book etc. is recommended to him, he rejects listening to it/reading it because he quotes his scholars which says that such a person/group are Ahlul Biddah. His Shuyukh trick him by showing and distorting the ahadith of the Salaf and Prophet Alayhis Salam in such a way as to only confirm their Mubtadi' views.

    His Shuyukh strawman the positions of the Ahlus Sunnah, deliberately misrepresenting them so as to easily point out how wrong they are. They also quote the previous Ahlul Biddah as the true scholars of Ahlus Sunnah, and claim that some of those of the real Ahlus Sunnah were upon their Manhaj (e.g. as the Mutazilites did with Abu Hanifa Rahimullah Alay).

    When he comes to us

    Now when he comes into our circles, we provide him with evidences. But the one from Ahlul Biddah has absorbed the deviations of his Shuyukh. He rejects what we bring him, saying the ulama of ahlus sunnah are using false interpretations etc. We ask him for evidence and he provides only the flimsiest evidence, and misinterprets in a literalist manner when it is supposed to be symbolic and in a symbolic manner when it is supposed to be symbolic.

    So he quotes the Hadith Allah is Time and says "See the Hadith is explicit - RasulAllah says Allah is time (ad-Dahr)! Do you reject Sahih Hadith?"

    When we tell him it does not mean that, he tells us we reject the literal wording.

    Then we quote to him our evidences. We bring the Hadith of seeing Allah. Sahih al-Bukhari 7435. He refuses to interpret this literally. We try and show him that he is being inconsistent but he dismisses our views as deviations. We tell him he rejects the literal wording. He does not listen, he says his shuyukh have told him that this hadith is not interpreted literally and therefore it is not. He says our Shuyukh are deviants. What are we supposed to say to this one? We bring to him verses of the Qur'an and he misinterprets them. We reason with him, and he does not reason. We are at a loss with him.

    He quotes the verse of the Qur'an that vision cannot grasp him. We say he has misunderstood this. He refuses to accept this and says we are going against the clear verse of the Qur'an. We try explaining to him that it does not mean what he thinks. He rejects our views, for the views taught to him by his scholars. He says the Sahabah accepted his views. He quotes Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 42, Hadith 2884.



    He says, "See? It is clear that the Sahabi 'Abdullah bin Masud is saying that the Ayat al-Kursi is a creation, for he says Allah has not created what is more significant than Ayat al-Kursi. Therefore Allah's speech, the Qur'an, is created" We say but consider the comment of Sufyan, he says, "Sufyan does not deny that the Ayat is a creation, rather he admits that Allah's speech is greater than the creation of the heavens and the earth - he does not correct Ibn Mas'ud in what he has says." We say, "We doubt the authenticity of the hadith-" Before we can finish he says, "Zubair Ali Zai (Darussalam) and al-Albani rate it Sahih"

    He also holds the deviant belief that the throne was not created, that there isn't a beginning to the creation - quoting the Qur'an that the throne was above the water. We quote to him the hadith of Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 44, Hadith 3109. The hadith is clear - he created the throne. Yet he rejects this. He says the Hadith is weak. Imam Tirmidhi brings a comment stating that the words "he was in the clouds" in the hadith are an addition by a narrator and gives it the rating "Hasan". He says to us "when tirmidhi says Hasan, he means the hadith is weak, and he weakened the words, weakening the hadith".

    I am at a loss. Is there convincing such a person?

    My question for you all is how could we bring this man from Ahlul Biddah over to Ahlus Sunnah? Is it possible? Or may this man never discover Ahlus Sunnah due to the clever deception of his Shuyukh?

    This is an open question for the members of this thread to answer, whatever background and whatever they are arguing above. Please give your reasoning on how to convince this man of Ahlul Biddah.
    This is interesting. I think you should make a separate thread for this, though. I was thinking of how it would be difficult to convince Shia's about Sunni Islam, and much of the predicaments of such an endeavor is very similar to what you have spoken of above as with the man of Ahlul Biddah.
    "When you want to cry, laugh.
    If you're frozen in fear, you can't do anything"

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Bolt View Post
      Abu 'Abdullaah

      This is late but still:



      This is a similar scenario to the Prophet's advice to the blind man - yet nobody claims that it is specific to those people and that only they were supposed to follow.
      Completely different scenario.

      It's not an act of worship.

      No intercession was sought.

      It was a customs of the Arabs.

      Also, see this:
      Originally posted by https://sunnah.com/bukhari/76/92
      Narrated Abu Tha`laba Al-Khushani:

      The Prophet (ﷺ) forbade the eating of wild animals having fangs. (Az-Zuhri said: I did not hear this narration except when I went to Sham.) Al-Laith said: Narrated Yunus: I asked Ibn Shihab, "May we perform the ablution with the milk of she-asses or drink it, or drink the bile of wild animals or urine of camels?" He replied, "The Muslims used to treat themselves with that and did not see any harm in it. As for the milk of she-asses, we have learnt that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade the eating of their meat, but we have not received any information whether drinking of their milk is allowed or forbidden." As for the bile of wild animals, Ibn Shihab said, "Abu Idris Al-Khaulani told me that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) forbade the eating of the flesh of every wild beast having fangs . "
      What you're doing is called clutching at straws.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
        Until now I've referred to the following leading scholars:

        Malik bin Anas (d. 179 AH), 'Abdullah bin al-Mubarak (d. 181 AH), Ahmad bin Hanbal (d. 241 AH), Ibn Abi Dunya (d. 281 AH), al-Mawardi (d. 450 AH), al-Ghazali (d. 505 AH), Ibn 'Aqil (d. 513 AH), 'Abd al-Qadir al-Jilani (d. 561 AH), Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH), Ibn al-Salah (d. 643 AH), Yahya al-Sarsari (d. 656 AH), al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH), Ibn Mawdud al-Mawsili (d. 683 AH), Shams al-Din al-Jazari (d. 711 AH), Najm al-Din al-Tufi (d. 716 AH) Kamal al-Din Ibn al-Zamlakani (d. 727 AH), Taqi al-Din al-Subki (d. 756 AH), Taqi al-Din al-Hisni (d. 829 AH), Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani (d. 852 AH), al-Samhudi (d. 911 AH), al-Qastallani (d. 923 AH), Zakariyya al-Ansari (d. 926 AH), Shihab al-Din al-Ramli (d. 957 AH), Ibn Hajar al-Haytami (d. 974 AH), Shams al-Din al-Ramli (d. 1004 AH), etc. .

        Note that it's very easy to bring many more quotes, but for now the above should be enough.

        Now if the above mentioned scholars are not the people of the Sunna, then who are the people of the Sunna?!?!
        There is an important point that I would like to add here:

        The rulings of the Shari'a are to be accepted no matter whether one understands their wisdom or not and how they exactly work.

        This means that these attempts to use a specific kind of reasoning in order to reject Tawassul are not superior to the Shar'i ruling regarding this issue and they are not superior to the religious texts.

        We know for example that giving Sadaqa on behalf of a deceased person is correct and that its reward reaches the deceased person. Do we need to know how exactly that reaching of reward works? No. Is it allowed to claim that since the deceased person did not do this action himself its reward can not reach him? No.

        Now implement this to the issue at hand: Taking the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a means to one's Lord and seeking his intercession:
        Do you need to know how exactly this works? No. Is it allowed to use a reasoning to override the Shar'i ruling? No.

        But this issue can actually be explained: The Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is the best of creation and the one with the highest rank and status with His Lord. Now in Tawassul you're using this high status and rank of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - as a means to your Lord. What is the connection between the Muslim and the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam? The Muslim believes in the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - wholeheartedly and loves and respects him and it is due this this connection that Allah ta'ala may accept the supplication of this Muslim. This is what is understood when the Muslim says "O my Lord, forgive me for the sake of your Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam".

        Or one could also give another explanation: Since the hair of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is blessed and so is his clothing - and we know that the Sahabat al-kiram would do Tabarruk with these things! - and so is whatever is connected to him, then there is no doubt that his name is blessed and his being is blessed, and one is using this as a means to one's Lord.

        As for asking for intercession: Then it's even easier to understand, because it's simply an asking to supplicate for you and we all understand how that works, right? The Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is alive in his grave and informed of the state of his Umma and prays for them.

        The issue is really not difficult to understand for the one who has not been blinded by the materialism, naturalism and atheism of our age.
        Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 13-10-20, 12:02 PM.

        Comment


        • What some people say, as knowledgable and pious as they may be, doesn't automatically become shariah. Their statements can be accepted or rejected.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
            What some people say, as knowledgable and pious as they may be, doesn't automatically become shariah. Their statements can be accepted or rejected.
            What the scholars have said is part of our religion, even in the midst of our differences

            I am not aware of anyone saying what the scholars have said is the Shariah.

            The Shariah is the Quran and Sunnah. The statements of the scholars is called fiqh al din (understanding of the religion).

            Fiqh al Akbar (Major Fiqh) - Aqida - Islamic Beliefs
            Fiqh al Asghar (Minor Fiqh) - Fiqh - Islamic Law
            Fiqh al Awsat (Medium Fiqh - Tasawwuf or Tazkiyatul Naf - Islamic Spirituality

            The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said,“When Allah wishes good for a person, He gives him understanding (fiqh) of the religion. I only distribute (ie the Quran and Sunnah) and it is Allah who gives (ie fiqh al din).” (Bukhari and Muslim)

            Shaykh Abdur Rahman al Shaghouri said, "What the Imams have recorded is our religion." This is to say what the scholars have said is part of our religion. Part of the religion being complete is that ijithad is part of it, even the differences are part of our religion. Irregardless if you agree with it or not. There is more than one way to understand a hadith.

            In Bukhari and Muslim from Ibn `Umar: On the day of the battle of al-Ahzab (the battle of the Trench) the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) said (to a travelling party): “Let none of you pray the `Asr prayer [in Muslim also: the Zuhr prayer] except after reaching the Banu Qurayza.” The `Asr prayer became due for some of them on the way. Some of those said: “We will not offer it till we reach the Banu Qurayza,” while others said: “Rather, we will pray at this spot, for the Prophet did not mean that for us.” Later on it was mentioned to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) and he did not take to task any of the two groups.”

            This is a proof that there is more than one way to understand a hadith.

            The Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وسلم) said, “Let none of you pray the `Asr prayer except after reaching the Banu Qurayza.”

            Look at what follows, it’s like watching a debate between the Salafis and traditional Sunni Muslims. Some of those said: “We will not offer it till we reach the Banu Qurayza,” while others said: “Rather, we will pray at this spot, for the Prophet did not mean that for us.” In the vast collections of opinions, the scholarly opinions have been graded as Mutamid (dominant opinion), daef (weak opinion) so on and so forth. Tawassul is a dominant opinion (mutamid) amongst the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah because the vast majority of the scholars of Ahlus Sunnah consider it permissible. There are traditional Sunni scholars who don't practice tawassul, thus the opinion favored by Salafis is followed, but it is just not the mutamid (dominant opinion) of Ahlus Sunnah.

            And Allah knows best.
            Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 13-10-20, 03:31 PM.
            My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

            Comment


            • Yet, the vast majority of duas do not involve tawassul.

              Very strange.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                Yet, the vast majority of duas do not involve tawassul.

                Very strange.
                Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib:

                The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) heard a man saying: O Allah, I ask Thee, I bear witness that there is no god but Thou, the One, He to Whom men repair, Who has not begotten, and has not been begotten, and to Whom no one is equal, and he said: You have supplicated Allah using His Greatest Name, when asked with this name He gives, and when supplicated by this name he answers.

                - Sunan Abi Dawud 1493
                And yet the vast majority of duas do not use what Buraydah has said.

                Very strange.
                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                1/116

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
                  Yet, the vast majority of duas do not involve tawassul.

                  Very strange.
                  1) Tawassul is typically done at the graves of the Prophets and awilyatullah. In the hadith the Sahaba went to the grave and performed tawassul. One of the most forgotten Sunnah is visiting the graves of the Muslims. This topic of tawassul doesn't really concern Muslims in the west, because there aren't any Prophets or Sahaba or awilyatullah buried in the west.

                  2) Distant Tawassul is only for the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. And amongst those who consider Tawassul permissible, there is a difference of opinion as to whether one can perform distant tawassul.

                  It is strange to you because you are ignorant of the place of tawassul in the religion to begin with.
                  My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post



                    And yet the vast majority of duas do not use what Buraydah has said.

                    Very strange.
                    Do you understand the difference between specific wording in a specific dua made by a specific person, and a general principle? It seems not.

                    Not strange at all considering...

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                      1) Tawassul is typically done at the graves of the Prophets and awilyatullah. In the hadith the Sahaba went to the grave and performed tawassul. One of the most forgotten Sunnah is visiting the graves of the Muslims. This topic of tawassul doesn't really concern Muslims in the west, because there aren't any Prophets or Sahaba or awilyatullah buried in the west.

                      2) Distant Tawassul is only for the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم. And amongst those who consider Tawassul permissible, there is a difference of opinion as to whether one can perform distant tawassul.

                      It is strange to you because you are ignorant of the place of tawassul in the religion to begin with.
                      I'm aware of the different forms and methods. You're just a dishonest dumbo.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                        Yet, the vast majority of duas do not involve tawassul.

                        I'm aware of the different forms and methods.
                        You claim to be aware of the different forms and methods. Then you should also know most people don't spend their time at the graves, so why would the vast majority of duas involve tawassul?
                        My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                          Do you understand the difference between specific wording in a specific dua made by a specific person, and a general principle? It seems not.

                          Not strange at all considering...
                          He brings up the difference between al-Khass and al-Amm' when he has no concept of them, and only brings them up to show off his knowledge.

                          Also why did the scholars transmit something useless, and why does Imam Abu Dawud bring it in a chapter called, "Regarding Supplication" in the book of Salah? What is the purpose of the four Sunnan works in Kutub al-Sittah? Why did Abu Dawud write his Sunan? (It is mentioned in his letter)

                          And he did not check whether there are multiple hadith talking about making dua via Allah's greatest name, from different Sahabah.

                          And he will never admit he is wrong.
                          Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                          "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                          Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                          Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                          1/116

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                            He brings up the difference between al-Khass and al-Amm' when he has no concept of them, and only brings them up to show off his knowledge.

                            Also why did the scholars transmit something useless, and why does Imam Abu Dawud bring it in a chapter called, "Regarding Supplication" in the book of Salah? What is the purpose of the four Sunnan works in Kutub al-Sittah? Why did Abu Dawud write his Sunan? (It is mentioned in his letter)

                            And he did not check whether there are multiple hadith talking about making dua via Allah's greatest name, from different Sahabah.

                            And he will never admit he is wrong.
                            Who are you talking about?

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                              You claim to be aware of the different forms and methods. Then you should also know most people don't spend their time at the graves, so why would the vast majority of duas involve tawassul?
                              It doesn't matter what most people do. Not all form involves going to graves. There is the 'name-drop' form where you mention names of people... which doesn't make much sense.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                                Who are you talking about?
                                You.

                                Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                                I'm aware of the different forms and methods. You're just a dishonest dumbo.
                                Has Allah made you heart hard?
                                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                                1/116

                                Comment

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