Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars

[Linkdeutscher]

Salamun 'alaykum,

I'm a little bit surprised to see you saying this, son. Are you putting a faulty reasoning / analogy - or let's say faulty Qiyas! - above what the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - teached (!) and this with the knowledge that there is NOTHING in his statement that indicates specification, but rather the opposite!

Who decides which supplication is superior and which not and this while both supplications are said by yourself and the One asked is the same?
Then: There is actually a difference between Tawassul bil Dhawat (Tawassul through selves) and the asking for supplication, because in the latter you're asking the creation to supplicate for you while in the first you're supplicating to Allah ta'ala yourself and only using their self (Dhat) as means to one's Lord and this due to their high rank and status! (Both is allowed.)
Now the faulty reasoning given does not apply to Tawassul bil Dhawat in any way or form, because you're not asking for supplication in the very first place!


There is a famous incident that proves silent consensus (Ijma' sukuti) among the Sahabat al-kiram - radhiallahu 'anhum ajma'in - on the issue of Tawassul bil Dhat:

It's reported in Sahih al-Bukhari 2/27 that when there would be a drought 'Umar bin al-Khattab - radhiallahu 'anhu - would use the following supplication upon which they would receive rain (translation taken from this artice: "Tawassul of `Umar through al-`Abbas (Allah be pleased with them)"):

اللَّهُمَّ إِنَّا كُنَّا نَتَوَسَّلُ إِلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّنَا فَتَسْقِينَا، وَإِنَّا نَتَوَسَّلُ إِلَيْكَ بِعَمِّ نَبِيِّنَا فَاسْقِنَا

"O Allah! We would use our Prophet as a means to You and You then sent us rain; now we use our Prophet's uncle as a means to You, therefore send us rain!"
- end of quote -

Note that this supplication was done in front of the Sahaba and not a single one of them objected to this, radhiallahu 'anhum ajma'in. So this proves that Tawassul bil Dhawat was accepted by ALL of them!

It it is claimed "this applies only to the living and not those who have passed away" (while forgetting that one has claimed Tawassul to be an innovation in the first place!), the answer is:
For you to have a point - even if only a very weak one - the wording would have to be something like "now we request our Prophet's uncle to ask You for rain" (which is how "Salafis" - in their dishonesty - translate the above statement!), but the Arabic wording is clearly stating "now we use our Prophet's unlce as a means to You" ("wa inna NATAWASSALU ilayka bi 'ammi nabiyyina").

So here 'Umar bin al-Khattab - radhiallahu 'anhu - was LITERALLY AND EXPLICITLY doing Tawassul bil Dhat with al-'Abbas, radhiallahu 'anhu!
Note that he doesn't even say "we use al-'Abbas", but rather "we use our Prophet's uncle", so the issue is based upon Tawassul with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - in the very first place!

Son.

If I don't do it, am I sinful?

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Lol why was tawassul done through the prophets uncle? Just for a bit of variety? You are pathetic with your twisted BS.

If you use the wording, "We use our Prophet's follower' then you can refer to anyone and the issue is automatically based upon Tawassul with the messenger of Allah

[Bolt]

Lol why was tawassul done through the prophets uncle? Just for a bit of variety? You are pathetic with your twisted BS.

Did you miss the part where he stated it's recorded in Bukhari.

[Bolt]

Why must there be inflammatory remarks when we are having a discussion. There shouldn't be speech like this. We can reach a conclusion without it and, regardless, acting like this helps nobody.

[Eorlingas]

Did you miss the part where he stated it's recorded in Bukhari.

I wasn't questioning the hadith, rather the crazy inferences he made from it. The hadith itself points out that during his lifetime they would supplicate through the prophet pbuh, and now they are supplicating through the prophets uncle..why the change?

[Muhammad Hasan]

This seems like an interesting discussion.

I wasn't questioning the hadith, rather the crazy inferences he made from it. The hadith itself points out that during his lifetime they would supplicate through the prophet pbuh, and now they are supplicating through the prophets uncle..why the change?

My brother, I hope you do not mind me asking you a question regarding a problem I find difficult to solve.

I want you to help me resolve it.

The Man of Ahlul Biddah

Suppose a man is of Ahlul Biddah.

Like all of Ahlul Biddah, this man and his shuyukh consider themselves to be a part of Ahlus Sunnah, though they are not a part of it. Now his shuyukh in Ahlul Biddah quote the Salaf saying don't sit with Ahlul Biddah etc. So he never decides to go and sit and listen to those on the straight path. Whenever a lecture, or book etc. is recommended to him, he rejects listening to it/reading it because he quotes his scholars which says that such a person/group are Ahlul Biddah. His Shuyukh trick him by showing and distorting the ahadith of the Salaf and Prophet Alayhis Salam in such a way as to only confirm their Mubtadi' views.

His Shuyukh strawman the positions of the Ahlus Sunnah, deliberately misrepresenting them so as to easily point out how wrong they are. They also quote the previous Ahlul Biddah as the true scholars of Ahlus Sunnah, and claim that some of those of the real Ahlus Sunnah were upon their Manhaj (e.g. as the Mutazilites did with Abu Hanifa Rahimullah Alay).

When he comes to us

Now when he comes into our circles, we provide him with evidences. But the one from Ahlul Biddah has absorbed the deviations of his Shuyukh. He rejects what we bring him, saying the ulama of ahlus sunnah are using false interpretations etc. We ask him for evidence and he provides only the flimsiest evidence, and misinterprets in a literalist manner when it is supposed to be symbolic and in a symbolic manner when it is supposed to be symbolic.

So he quotes the Hadith Allah is Time and says "See the Hadith is explicit - RasulAllah says Allah is time (ad-Dahr)! Do you reject Sahih Hadith?"

When we tell him it does not mean that, he tells us we reject the literal wording.

Then we quote to him our evidences. We bring the Hadith of seeing Allah. Sahih al-Bukhari 7435. He refuses to interpret this literally. We try and show him that he is being inconsistent but he dismisses our views as deviations. We tell him he rejects the literal wording. He does not listen, he says his shuyukh have told him that this hadith is not interpreted literally and therefore it is not. He says our Shuyukh are deviants. What are we supposed to say to this one? We bring to him verses of the Qur'an and he misinterprets them. We reason with him, and he does not reason. We are at a loss with him.

He quotes the verse of the Qur'an that vision cannot grasp him. We say he has misunderstood this. He refuses to accept this and says we are going against the clear verse of the Qur'an. We try explaining to him that it does not mean what he thinks. He rejects our views, for the views taught to him by his scholars. He says the Sahabah accepted his views. He quotes Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 42, Hadith 2884.

Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:

"Allah has not created in the heavens nor in the earth what is more magnificent than Ayat Al-Kursi." Sufyan said: "Because Ayat Al-Kursi is the Speech of Allah, and Allah's Speech is greater than Allah's creation of the heavens and the earth."

- Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 42, Hadith 2884

He says, "See? It is clear that the Sahabi 'Abdullah bin Masud is saying that the Ayat al-Kursi is a creation, for he says Allah has not created what is more significant than Ayat al-Kursi. Therefore Allah's speech, the Qur'an, is created" We say but consider the comment of Sufyan, he says, "Sufyan does not deny that the Ayat is a creation, rather he admits that Allah's speech is greater than the creation of the heavens and the earth - he does not correct Ibn Mas'ud in what he has says." We say, "We doubt the authenticity of the hadith-" Before we can finish he says, "Zubair Ali Zai (Darussalam) and al-Albani rate it Sahih"

He also holds the deviant belief that the throne was not created, that there isn't a beginning to the creation - quoting the Qur'an that the throne was above the water. We quote to him the hadith of Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 44, Hadith 3109. The hadith is clear - he created the throne. Yet he rejects this. He says the Hadith is weak. Imam Tirmidhi brings a comment stating that the words "he was in the clouds" in the hadith are an addition by a narrator and gives it the rating "Hasan". He says to us "when tirmidhi says Hasan, he means the hadith is weak, and he weakened the words, weakening the hadith".

I am at a loss. Is there convincing such a person?

My question for you all is how could we bring this man from Ahlul Biddah over to Ahlus Sunnah? Is it possible? Or may this man never discover Ahlus Sunnah due to the clever deception of his Shuyukh?

This is an open question for the members of this thread to answer, whatever background and whatever they are arguing above. Please give your reasoning on how to convince this man of Ahlul Biddah.

[Muslim First]

Raise your hands and make dua to Allah alone.

[Bolt]

I wasn't questioning the hadith, rather the crazy inferences he made from it. The hadith itself points out that during his lifetime they would supplicate through the prophet pbuh, and now they are supplicating through the prophets uncle..why the change?

The Hadith itself mentions Umar supplicating through the Prophet's uncle

"O Allah! We would use our Prophet as a means to You and You then sent us rain; now we use our Prophet's uncle as a means to You, therefore send us rain!"

[Bolt]

Raise your hands and make dua to Allah alone.

The Dua is still directed to Allah.

[Eorlingas]

The Hadith itself mentions Umar supplicating through the Prophet's uncle

"O Allah! We would use our Prophet as a means to You and You then sent us rain; now we use our Prophet's uncle as a means to You, therefore send us rain!"

Exactly..when the prophet pbuh was alive they would ask him to intercede and ask for rain. After he passed away they asked the prophets uncle to. Why did they do this if it was permissible to seek intercession of the dead? The disingenuous foolish claim is that because the hadith states "prophets uncle", it is somehow still seeking the prophets intercession.

[Bolt]

Exactly..when the prophet pbuh was alive they would ask him to intercede and ask for rain. After he passed away they asked the prophets uncle to. Why did they do this if it was permissible to seek intercession of the dead? The disingenuous foolish claim is that because the hadith states "prophets uncle", it is somehow still seeking the prophets intercession.

Oh, that's what you meant.
Hmm.

[Abu Sulayman]

...[/VIDEO]

Salamun 'alaykum,

the thread is named as "Seeking intercession with the Prophet (s): Its ruling according to classical scholars", so the opinions of today's people - who have been influenced by all kinds of wrong beliefs - is not of any importance here. What is important here is to know what the classical scholars were upon regarding this issue (and also other than this).

Son.

If I don't do it, am I sinful?

No you'll not be sinful, but to deny its permissibility and claiming it to be innovation is problematic, because it means that one calls something that was teached by the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - himself and that was acted upon and teached by companions AFTER the passing away of our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and was also acted upon by early Muslims as innovation. An innovation is something that has no basis in the Islamic law, so this issue can not be called an innovation in any way or form!

What is even worse is to claim that the one who seeks the intercession of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - has committed "greater polytheism which throws one out of the religion" - as the Najdis and their followers claim! - and this claim is sinful at least, if not disbelief in itself!

[Abu Sulayman]

Lol why was tawassul done through the prophets uncle? Just for a bit of variety? You are pathetic with your twisted BS.

"You are pathetic with your twisted BS"?! Before you make any further posts in this thread, maybe you can give a justification for the words you use while we're discussing about a Shar'i ruling!

I wasn't questioning the hadith, rather the crazy inferences he made from it. The hadith itself points out that during his lifetime they would supplicate through the prophet pbuh, and now they are supplicating through the prophets uncle..why the change?

Exactly..when the prophet pbuh was alive they would ask him to intercede and ask for rain. After he passed away they asked the prophets uncle to. Why did they do this if it was permissible to seek intercession of the dead? The disingenuous foolish claim is that because the hadith states "prophets uncle", it is somehow still seeking the prophets intercession.

"Crazy inferences", "disingenuous foolish claim", really?
Did you care to look at ARABIC wording of the Hadith?
Do you know that for the first 7 centuries (!!!) your [wrong] understanding of this narration and of the issue of Tawassul in general was not mentioned by a single scholar?!

Then: The Arabic wording of the supplication done by 'Umar bin al-Khattab - radhiallahu 'anhu - does not mentioned requesting al-'Abbas - radhiallahu 'anhu - to supplicate for rain (even if they also did this), but rather it states [additionally] performing Tawassul through the Prophet's uncle unto Allah ta'ala ("now we use our Prophet's unlce as a means to You" / "wa inna NATAWASSALU ilayka bi 'ammi nabiyyina").
This is LITERAL and EXPLICIT Tawassul bil Dhat (meaning through a self / person and not only through their supplication)!
Do you know that Tawassul bil Dhat is an "innovation" according to your sect no matter what (including with people who have not passed away)! And here our Master 'Umar is committing this so called "innovation" in front of ALL Sahaba, radhiallahu 'anhum ajma'in!

As for the reason for doing Tawassul with al-'Abbas - radhiallahu 'anhu -, then this is for several reasons and among them:
- Al-'Abbas belongs to the family of our Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, so this issue is indeed based upon the rank and status of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.
- Al-'Abbas was at the same time also in need of rain / water (as stated by Imam al-Subki (d. 756 AH) in his Shifa` al-Siqam (see p. 377)).
- It also indicates that it's not just allowed to perform Tawassul with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam -, but rather also with his family and the righteous of his Umma!

Imam Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani (d. 852 AH) stated in the context of the above narration the following in his Fath al-Bari 2/497:

ويستفاد من قصة العباس استحباب الاستشفاع بأهل الخير والصلاح وأهل بيت النبوة ، وفيه فضل العباس وفضل عمر لتواضعه للعباس ومعرفته بحقه

The benefit from this story regarding al-'Abbas is that it's desirable to seek intercession (Istishfa') through righteous people and the Prophet’s family (Ahl al-Bayt), and in it is the merit of al-'Abbas and [also] the merit of 'Umar due to his humbleness before al-'Abbas and his recognition of his [due] right.
- end of quote -


As for supporting evidences that the understanding presented is nearer to the truth:

Then we know that the Sahaba - radhiallahu 'anhum - continued to perform Tawassul through the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - AFTER his passing away and also asking for his supplication / intercession. Let me give one example for each:

- 'Uthman bin Hunayf - radhiallahu 'anhu - is the one who narrated the incident mentioned in the Hadith of the blind man. He used to teach the supplication "O Allāh, I ask You and I approach You through your Prophet Muhammad ﷺ, the Prophet of Mercy. O Muhammad, I approach my Lord through you that my need be fulfilled," AFTER the passing away of the Prophet, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.
(Al-Tabarani narrated it in al-Mu'jam al-Kabir 9/17. This narration is rigorously authentic (sahih) as stated by al-Haythamī in his majmā` al-zawā’id, p. 179, vol. 2; and al-Mundhirī in his al-targhīb wal tarhīb (1/273, no. 1018). The narration is also found in al-Tabarānī’s mu`jam al-saghīr (no. 508) where he declared the narration to be sahīh as well as his kitāb al-du`ā (2/1288).)

- Bilal bin al-Harith al-Muzani - radhiallahu 'anhu - went to the grave of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - during a drought and said "O Messenger of Allāh, ask for rain for your Community, for verily they have but perished.".
(The statement can be found in the narration of Malik al-Dar, which is authentic according to al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar (and other authorities of Hadith) and he identified the person in the narration as the companion Bilal bin al-Harith al-Muzani - radhiallahu 'anhu - through another route. See also the work "The Blazing Star in Defence of a Narration from Malik al-Dar", which proves its authenticiy beyond any doubt.)


(Note: Any claims of "this is not authentic" will NOT be accepted! The classical authorities of Hadith - who are the very people who have transmitted us these Ahadith! - have authenticated it, so the unqualified opinions of al-Albani and other people in our time does NOT have any worth whatsoever!)

[Abu Sulayman]

I would really recommend those who are commenting in this thread to read the first 3 pages at least, because many scholarly statements have already been brought regarding this issue and many of them lived prior to Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH), who was the first in Islamic history to disagree on this and was refuted by the very scholars of his time.


Read this post as an example, which proofs that this issue was clearly acted upon by early Muslims and that even Ibn Taymiyya had to admit this:

Imam Ibn Abi Dunya (d. 281 AH): The Salaf acted upon the Hadith of the blind man and performed Tawassul!

He said in his book Mujabu al-Da'wa - which is a compilation of various supplications used by the Salaf al-salih - the following (translation taken from HERE):

حَدَّثَنَا أَبُو هِشَامٍ، سَمِعْتُ عَنَ كَثِيرِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ كَثِيرِ بْنِ رِفَاعَةَ قَالَ: " §جَاءَ رَجُلٌ إِلَى عَبْدِ الْمَلِكِ بْنِ حَيَّانَ بْنِ سَعِيدِ بْنِ الْحَسَنِ بْنِ أَبْجَرَ، فَجَسَّ بَطْنَهُ، فَقَالَ: بِكَ دَاءٌ لَا يَبْرَأُ، قَالَ: مَا هُوَ؟ قَالَ: هُوَ الدُّبَيْلَةُ، فَتَحَوَّلَ الرَّجُلُ، فَقَالَ: اللَّهُ، اللَّهُ، رَبِّي لَا أُشْرِكُ بِهِ أَحَدًا، اللَّهُمَّ إِنِّي أَتَوَجَّهُ إِلَيْكَ بِنَبِيِّكَ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ، نَبِيِّ الرَّحْمَةِ، يَا مُحَمَّدُ، إِنِّي أَتَوَجَّهُ بِكَ إِلَى رَبِّكَ وَرَبِّي أَنْ يَرْحَمَنِي مِمَّا بِي رَحْمَةً يُغْنِينِي بِهَا عَنْ رَحْمَةِ مَنْ سِوَاهُ - ثَلَاثَ مَرَّاتٍ ثُمَّ دَعَا إِلَى ابْنِ أَبْجَرَ، فَجَسَّ بَطْنَهُ، فَقَالَ: بَرَأْتَ، مَا بِكَ عِلَّةٌ

... a person came over to see ‘Abd-ul-Malik bin Sa‘īd bin Abjar (who is from the Tabi’ Tabieen). ‘Abd-ul-Malik pressed his belly and told him that he was suffering from an incurable disease. The man asked him: ‘what is it?’ ‘Abd-ul-Malik replied that it was a kind of ulcer that grows inside the belly and ultimately kills the man. It is said that the patient turned round and then he said: Allāh! Allāh! Allāh is my Lord. I regard no one as His rival or partner. O Allāh! I beseech You and submit myself to You through the mediation of Your Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the merciful Prophet. O Muhammad! Through your means I submit myself to your and my Lord that He should take mercy on me in my state of illness... It is said that ‘Abd-ul-Malik pressed his belly again and said: ‘you are cured, you are no longer suffering from any disease.’
- end of quote -

Just look when the author lived and then you'll know that all these statements that "the Salaf never did it... it's an innovation" is nothing but a lie in order to confuse the people and lead them astray.



Imam Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) ADMITTING that the Hadith of the blind man was acted upon by the Salaf al-salih and that Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH) permitted Tawassul!

He was the first to hold an abnormal position on this issue, yet he said in his Qa'ida Jalila fil Tawassul wal Wasila after mentioning the above report (translation same as above):

قلت: فهذا الدعاء ونحوه قد روي أنه دعا به السلف، ونقل عن أحمد بن حنبل في منسك المروذي التوسل بالنبي ﷺ في الدعاء

I say this dua’ and similar (dua’) has been narrated that the Salaf used to ask (in supplication) with, and it’s been reported in the Manasik of Al Marrudhi that Imam Ahmed (encouraged) tawassul through the Prophet in his dua’.
- end of quote -

So even he could not deny that it was acted upon by the Salaf al-salih! He says then that "others have disallowed it" and wants to act as if the issue of al-Tawassul bil Dhat is differed upon, while not being able to name a single major scholar who supported his view and this should be enough for you to know the reality of this issue!

Know that Imam Ahmad (d. 241 AH) permitting Tawassul with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is established with certainty, because his direct student - the Imam Abu Bakr al-Marrudhi (d. 275 AH) has mentioned it from him - and this is acknowledged by ALL Hanabila!

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Anyone know what Imam Abu Hanifa's opinion on all this is?