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Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab's lack of qualifications and the disasters that resulted from it!

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    The Prophet ๏ทบ informed his nation that satan has despaired to be EVER worshiped on the Arabian peninsula again!

    Then they Shaykh Sulayman stated (see p. 105 - 106):

    ูˆู…ู…ุง ูŠุฏู„ ุนู„ู‰ ุจุทู„ุงู† ู…ุฐู‡ุจูƒู… ู…ุงุฑูˆู‰ ู…ุณู„ู… ููŠ ุตุญูŠุญู‡ ุนู† ุฌุงุจุฑ ุงุจู† ุนุจุฏุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู† ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุงู†ู‡ ู‚ุงู„ ุงู† ุงู„ุดูŠุทุงู† ู‚ุฏ ุงูŠุณ ุงู† ูŠุนุจุฏู‡ ุงู„ู…ุตู„ูˆู† ููŠ ุฌุฒูŠุฑุฉ ุงู„ุนุฑุจ ูˆู„ูƒู† ููŠ ุงู„ุชุญุฑูŠุด ุจูŠู†ู‡ู… ูˆุฑูˆู‰ ุงู„ุญุงูƒู… ูˆุตุญุญู‡ ูˆุงุจูˆ ูŠุนู„ู‰ ูˆุงู„ุจูŠู‡ู‚ูŠ ุนู† ุงุจู† ู…ุณุนูˆุฏ ู‚ุงู„ ู‚ุงู„ ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุงู† ุงู„ุดูŠุทุงู† ู‚ุฏ ูŠุฆุณ ุงู† ุชุนุจุฏ ุงู„ุงุตู†ุงู… ุจุงุฑุถ ุงู„ุนุฑุจ ูˆู„ูƒู† ุฑุถู‰ ู…ู†ู‡ู… ุจู…ุง ุฏูˆู† ุฐู„ูƒ ุจุงู„ู…ุญู‚ุฑุงุช ูˆู‡ูŠ ุงู„ู…ูˆุจู‚ุงุช ูˆุฑูˆู‰ ุงู„ุงู…ุงู… ุงุญู…ุฏ ูˆุงู„ุญุงูƒู… ูˆุตุญุญู‡ ูˆุงุจู† ู…ุงุฌู‡ ุนู† ุดุฏุงุฏ ุจู† ุงูˆุณ ู‚ุงู„ ุณู…ุนุช ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ูŠู‚ูˆู„ ุงุชุฎูˆู ุนู„ู‰ ุงู…ุชูŠ ุงู„ุดุฑูƒ ู‚ู„ุช ูŠุง ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุงุชุดุฑูƒ ุงู…ุชูƒ ุจุนุฏูƒ ู‚ุงู„ ู†ุนู… ุงู…ุง ุงู†ู‡ู… ู„ุง ูŠุนุจุฏูˆู† ุดู…ุณุง ูˆู„ุง ู‚ู…ุฑุง ูˆู„ุง ูˆุซู†ุง ูˆู„ูƒู† ูŠุฑุงุคู† ุจุงุนู…ุงู„ู‡ู… (ุงู†ุชู‡ู‰) ุงู‚ูˆู„ ูˆุฌู‡ ุงู„ุฏู„ุงู„ุฉ ู…ู†ู‡ ูƒู…ุง ุชู‚ุฏู… ุงู† ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุณุจุญุงู†ู‡ ุงุนู„ู… ู†ุจูŠู‡ ู…ู† ุบูŠุจู‡ ุจู…ุง ุดุงุก ูˆุจู…ุง ู‡ูˆ ูƒุงุฆู† ุงู„ู‰ ูŠูˆู… ุงู„ู‚ูŠู…ุฉ ูˆุงุฎุจุฑ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุงู† ุงู„ุดูŠุทุงู† ู‚ุฏ ุฃูŠุณ ุงู† ูŠุนุจุฏู‡ ุงู„ู…ุตู„ูˆู† ููŠ ุฌุฒูŠุฑุฉ ุงู„ุนุฑุจ ูˆููŠ ุญุฏูŠุซ ุงุจู† ู…ุณุนูˆุฏ ุฃูŠุณ ุงู„ุดูŠุทุงู† ุงู† ุชุนุจุฏ ุงู„ุงุตู†ุงู… ุจุงุฑุถ ุงู„ุนุฑุจ ูˆููŠ ุญุฏูŠุซ ุดุฏุงุฏ ุงู†ู‡ู… ู„ุง ูŠุนุจุฏูˆู† ูˆุซู†ุง ูˆู‡ุฐุง ุจุฎู„ุงู ู…ุฐู‡ุจูƒู… ูุงู† ุงู„ุจุตุฑุฉ ูˆู…ุง ุญูˆู„ู‡ุง ูˆุงู„ุนุฑุงู‚ ู…ู† ุฏูˆู† ุฏุฌู„ุฉ ุงู„ู…ูˆุถุน ุงู„ุฐูŠ ููŠู‡ ู‚ุจุฑ ุนู„ูŠ ูˆู‚ุจุฑ ุงู„ุญุณูŠู† ุฑุถูŠ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชุนุงู„ู‰ ุนู†ู‡ู…ุง ูˆูƒุฐู„ูƒ ุงู„ูŠู…ู† ูƒู„ู‡ุง ูˆุงู„ุญุฌุงุฒ ูƒู„ ุฐู„ูƒ ู…ู† ุงุฑุถ ุงู„ุนุฑุจ ูˆู…ุฐู‡ุจูƒู… ุงู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ู…ูˆุงุถุน ูƒู„ู‡ุง ุนุจุฏ ุงู„ุดูŠุทุงู† ููŠู‡ุง ูˆุนุจุฏุช ุงู„ุงุตู†ุงู… ูˆูƒู„ู‡ู… ูƒูุงุฑ ูˆู…ู† ู„ู… ูŠูƒูุฑู‡ู… ูู‡ูˆ ุนู†ุฏูƒู… ูƒุงูุฑ ูˆู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุงุญุงุฏูŠุซ ุชุฑุฏ ู…ุฐู‡ุจูƒู… ู‡ุฐุง ูˆู„ุง ูŠู‚ุงู„ ุงู†ู‡ ู‚ุฏ ูˆุฌุฏ ุจุนุถ ุงู„ุดุฑูƒ ุจุงุฑุถ ุงู„ุนุฑุจ ุฒู…ู† ุงู„ุฑุฏุฉ ูุงู† ุฐู„ูƒ ุฒุงู„ ููŠ ุขู† ูŠุณูŠุฑ ูู‡ูˆ ูƒุงู„ุงู…ุฑ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ุนุฑุถ ู„ุง ูŠุนุชุฏ ุจู‡ ูƒู…ุง ุงู† ุฑุฌู„ุง ุงูˆ ุงูƒุซุฑ ู…ู† ุงู‡ู„ ุงู„ูƒูุฑ ุฏุฎู„ ุงุฑุถ ุงู„ุนุฑุจ ูˆุนุจุฏ ุบูŠุฑ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ููŠ ู…ูˆุถุน ุฎุงู„ ุงูˆ ุฎููŠุฉ ูุงู…ุง ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุงู…ูˆุฑ ุงู„ุชูŠ ุชุฌุนู„ูˆู†ู‡ุง ุดุฑูƒุง ุงูƒุจุฑ ูˆุนุจุงุฏุฉ ุงู„ุงุตู†ุงู… ูู‡ูŠ ู…ู„ุฃุช ุจู„ุงุฏ ุงู„ุนุฑุจ ู…ู† ู‚ุฑูˆู† ู…ุชุฏุงูˆู„ุฉ ูุชุจูŠู† ุจู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุงุญุงุฏูŠุซ ูุณุงุฏ ู‚ูˆู„ูƒู… ุงู† ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุงู…ูˆุฑ ู‡ูŠ ุนุจุงุฏุฉ ุงู„ุงูˆุซุงู† ุงู„ูƒุจุฑู‰

    That which also shows the falseness of your [deviant] way is that which is [found] reported by Muslim in his Sahih on the authority of Jabir bin 'Abdullah that the Prophet ๏ทบ stated:
    "Verily, satan has lost all hopes that those who engage in prayer would [ever] worship him in the Arabian peninsula, but [has not lost hope] in creating dissension among them."

    Al-Hakim reported [in al-Mustadrak 'ala al-Sahihayn] - and authenticated it - and Abu Ya'la [in Musnad Abu Ya'la] and al-Bayhaqi [also] reported [in Shu'ab al-Iman] on the authority of Ibn Mas'ud that he said: Allah's Messenger ๏ทบ stated:
    "Verily, satan has lost all hopes that idols would [ever] be worshiped in the lands of the Arabs [again], but he is pleased with them [committing] less than that like the despicable deeds, [for] they are destructive deeds."

    Imam Ahmad reported [in Musnad Ahmad] and so did al-Hakim [in al-Mustadrak 'ala al-Sahihayn] - and he authenticated it - and Ibn Majah [in Sunan Ibn Majah] on the authority of Shaddad bin Aws that he said: I heard the Allah's Messenger ๏ทบ saying:
    "I fear for my nation associating [others with Allah]."
    So I said: "O Messenger of Allah, will your nation associate [others with Allah] after you?"
    He (๏ทบ) responded: "Yes, but they will not worship the sun or the moon or idols, but they will perform deeds for the sake of others [than Allah]."

    I say: The proof in this is as already mentioned that Allah - Exalted be He - teached His Prophet from the [knowledge of the] unseen that which He willed and that which will happen until the day of judgement.
    [Our Prophet] ๏ทบ informed us [in the narration of Jabir bin 'Abdullah] that "satan has lost all hopes that those who engage in prayer would [ever] worship him in the Arabian peninsula" and in the narration of Ibn Mas'ud that "satan has lost all hopes that idols would [ever] be worshiped in he lands of the Arabs [again]" and in the narration of Shaddad that "they will not... worship idols".

    [All of] this is in opposition to your [deviant] way, because Basra and that which is around it and Iraq - without [what lies beyond] the Tigris - [and Iraq] is the place where the grave of 'Ali [bin Abi Talib] and the grave of al-Hussayn - may Allah be pleased with both of them - is located; and likewise all of Yemen and the Hijaz [region]: All of this is from the land of the Arabs and in your [deviant] way in all these places the satan has been worshiped and the idols have been worshiped (meaning: by the Muslim population in the claim of MIAW) and all of them are disbelievers and whosoever does not perform Takfir upon them is a disbeliever [also] according to you.
    These narrations [mentioned] refute your [deviant] way [and claim].


    It's not to be said that there used to be some [greater] polytheism in the lands of the Arabs in the time of apostasy, because this ceased to exist in a [very] short time, so it's like an incident that happened [and ceased to become established] such that it can not be relied upon [to oppose the narrations]. This is like if a man or more than a man from the people of disbelief enter the land of the Arabs and worship other than Allah in an empty or secret place [such that it does not oppose the narrations].

    As for the issues that you have turned into "greater polytheism" and the "worship of idols": Then it has filled the land of the Arabs since many centuries one after the other, so with these narrations the falseness of your claim that these issues are "the major worship of idols" has become clear.

    - end of quote -


    He then kept on refuting other points until he stated (see p. 108 - 109):

    ูˆู…ู…ุง ูŠุฏู„ ุนู„ู‰ ุจุทู„ุงู† ู…ุฐู‡ุจูƒู… ู…ุง ุงุฎุฑุฌู‡ ุงู„ุงู…ุงู… ุงุญู…ุฏ ูˆุงู„ุชุฑู…ุฐูŠ ูˆุตุญุญู‡ ูˆุงู„ู†ุณุงุฆูŠ ูˆุงุจู† ู…ุงุฌุฉ ู…ู† ุญุฏูŠุซ ุนู…ุฑูˆ ุจู† ุงู„ุงุญูˆุต ู‚ุงู„ ุณู…ุนุช ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ูŠู‚ูˆู„ ููŠ ุญุฌุฉ ุงู„ูˆุฏุงุน ุงู„ุง ุงู† ุงู„ุดูŠุทุงู† ู‚ุฏ ุฃูŠุณ ุงู† ูŠุนุจุฏ ููŠ ุจู„ุฏูƒู… ู‡ุฐุง ุงุจุฏุง ูˆู„ูƒู† ุณุชูƒูˆู† ู„ู‡ ุทุงุนุฉ ููŠ ุจุนุถ ู…ุง ุชุญู‚ุฑูˆู† ู…ู† ุงุนู…ุงู„ูƒู… ููŠุฑุถ ุจู‡ุง ูˆููŠ ุตุญูŠุญ ุงู„ุญุงูƒู… ุนู† ุงุจู† ุนุจุงุณ ุงู† ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุฎุทุจ ููŠ ุญุฌุฉ ุงู„ูˆุฏุงุน ูู‚ุงู„ ุงู„ุดูŠุทุงู† ู‚ุฏ ูŠุฆุณ ุงู† ูŠุนุจุฏ ููŠ ุงุฑุถูƒู… ูˆู„ูƒู† ูŠุฑุถู‰ ุงู† ูŠุทุงุน ููŠู…ุง ุณูˆู‰ ุฐู„ูƒ ููŠู…ุง ุชุญู‚ุฑูˆู† ู…ู† ุงุนู…ุงู„ูƒู… ูุงุญุฐุฑูˆุง ุงูŠู‡ุง ุงู„ู†ุงุณ ุงู†ูŠ ุชุฑูƒุช ููŠูƒู… ู…ุง ุงู† ุงุนุชุตู…ุชู… ุจู‡ ู„ู… ุชุธู„ูˆุง ุงุจุฏุง ูƒุชุงุจ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ูˆุณู†ุฉ ู†ุจูŠู‡ (ุงู†ุชู‡ู‰) ูˆุฌู‡ ุงู„ุฏู„ุงู„ุฉ ุงู† ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุงุฎุจุฑ ููŠ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุญุฏูŠุซ ุงู„ุตุญูŠุญ ุงู† ุงู„ุดูŠุทุงู† ูŠุฆุณ ุงู† ูŠุนุจุฏ ููŠ ุจู„ุฏ ู…ูƒุฉ ูˆูƒุฐู„ูƒ ุจู‚ูˆู„ู‡ ุงุจุฏุง ู„ุฆู„ุง ูŠุชูˆู‡ู… ู…ุชูˆู‡ู… ุงู†ู‡ ุญุฏ ุซู… ูŠุฒูˆู„ ูˆู‡ุฐุง ุฎุจุฑ ู…ู†ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ูˆู‡ูˆ ู„ุง ูŠุฎุจุฑ ุจุฎู„ุงู ู…ุงูŠู‚ุน ูˆุงูŠุถุง ุจุดุฑู‰ ู…ู†ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ู„ุงู…ุชู‡ ูˆู‡ูˆ ู„ุง ูŠุจุดุฑู‡ู… ุงู„ุง ุจุงู„ุตุฏู‚

    That which also shows the falseness of your [deviant] way is that which is narrated by Imam Ahmad [in Musnad Ahmad] and al-Tirmidhi [in Jami' al-Tirmidhi] - and he authenticated it - and al-Nasa`i [in Sunan al-Nasa`i] and Ibn Majah [in Sunan Ibn Majah] on the authority of [Sulayman bin] 'Amr bin al-Ahwas that he said: I heard Allah's Messenger ๏ทบ in the farewell pilgrimage saying:
    "Satan has despaired of EVER being worshiped in this land of yours [again], but he will be obeyed in some matters which you regard as insignificant, and he will be content with that."

    In the Sahih of al-Hakim it's reported on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that the Prophet ๏ทบ held a speech in the farewell pilgrimage and said:
    "Satan has despaired of being worshiped in your land [ever again], but he is content with what is besides that in some of the deeds which you regard as insignificant. So beware, o people! I have left among you that which if you hold on to you'll never go astray: The book of Allah and the Sunna of His Prophet."

    The proof in this is that the Messenger of Allah ๏ทบ informed [us] in this authentic report that satan has despaired to be worshiped [again] in the city of Makka and likewise his statement EVER [again], so that no one [falsely] thinks that this will just be temporal and then will not remain like this anymore.
    This is him ๏ทบ informing [his nation] and he does not inform that which is in opposition to that will take place [in reality]. It's also glad tidings from him ๏ทบ to his nation and he does not give them glad tidings except with the truth.

    - end of quote -


    He then clarifies that the things that MIAW (d. 1206 AH) regards as "greater polytheism" can also be found in Makka al-Mukarrama and this since centuries upon centuries and that the people of Makka - including their scholars! - hate IAW's way!

    He also clarifies that there shall be no Hijra anymore from Makka and brings the narration that is found in the Sahihayn (and other than it) on this, which proofs that their land can never be a land of disbelief as the Najdis claimed!
    He then brings a lot of narrations regarding Madina al-Munawwara, which proves beyond any doubt that it's impossible for it to become a city where idols are worshiped and this destroys the claim of the Najdis.
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 21-11-20, 09:14 PM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    The only polytheism that can be found in his nation is the lesser one!

    He then clarified an important point by stating (see p. 104 - 105):

    ูุงู† ู‚ู„ุช) ูˆุฑุฏ ุนู† ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุงู†ู‡ ู‚ุงู„ ุงุฎูˆู ู…ุง ุงุฎุงู ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุงู„ุดุฑูƒ ู‚ู„ุช ู‡ุฐุง ุญู‚ ูˆุงุญุงุฏูŠุซ ุงู„ุฑุณูˆู„ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ู„ุง ุชุชุนุงุฑุถ ูˆู„ูƒู† ูƒู„ ุญุฏูŠุซ ูˆุฑุฏ ุนู† ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุงู†ู‡ ูŠุฎุงู ุนู„ู‰ ุงู…ุชู‡ ุงู„ุดุฑูƒ ู‚ูŠุฏู‡ ุจุงู„ุดุฑูƒ ุงู„ุงุตุบุฑ ูƒุญุฏูŠุซ ุดุฏุงุฏ ุจู† ุงูˆุณ ูˆุญุฏูŠุซ ุงุจูŠ ู‡ุฑูŠุฑุฉ ูˆุญุฏูŠุซ ู…ุญู…ูˆุฏ ุจู† ู„ุจูŠุฏ ููƒู„ู‡ุง ู…ู‚ูŠุฏุฉ ูˆู…ุจูŠู†ุฉ ุงู†ู…ุง ุฎุงู ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ู…ู†ู‡ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู…ุชู‡ ุงู„ุดุฑูƒ ุงู„ุงุตุบุฑ ูˆูƒุฐู„ูƒ ูˆู‚ุน ูุงู†ู‡ ู…ู„ุง ุงู„ุงุฑุถ ูƒู…ุง ุงู†ู‡ ุฎุงู ุนู„ูŠู‡ู… ุงู„ุงูุชุชุงู† ูˆุงู„ู‚ุชุงู„ ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ุฏู†ูŠุง ููˆู‚ุน ูˆู‡ูˆ ุงู‰ ุงู„ุดุฑูƒ ุงู„ุงุตุบุฑ ู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุฐูŠ ุชุณู…ูˆู†ู‡ ุงู„ุงู† ุงู„ุดุฑูƒ ุงู„ุงูƒุจุฑ ูˆุชูƒูุฑูˆู† ุงู„ู…ุณู„ู…ูŠู† ุจู‡ ุจู„ ุชูƒูุฑูˆู† ู…ู† ู„ู… ูŠูƒูุฑู‡ู… ูุงุชูู‚ุช ุงู„ุงุญุงุฏูŠุซ ูˆุจุงู† ุงู„ุญู‚ ูˆูˆุถุญ ูˆุงู„ุญู…ุฏ ู„ู„ู‡

    If you now say: " It has been reported that the Prophet ๏ทบ said: "The thing that I fear most for you is associating [others with Allah].""

    [Then] I say: This is true, but the narrations of the Messenger ๏ทบ do not oppose each other, because every narration that has been reported from the Prophet ๏ทบ [where it is stated] that he was afraid of polytheism (Shirk) [for his nation] has been restricted to lesser polytheism (Shirk asghar) like the narration of Shaddad bin Aws and the narration of Abu Hurayra and the narration of Mahmud bin Labid.
    So all [these narrations] are restricted and make it clear that Allah's Messenger ๏ทบ was afraid for his nation [to fall into] lesser polytheism and likewise it happened, for it has filled the earth. Just like he was afraid of tribulations and fighting [between his nation] for sake of this world and it also happened.
    It - meaning lesser polytheism - is that which you now call us "greater polytheism" and you regard the Muslims as disbelievers for it! You even perform Takfir of those who do not regard them as disbelievers!
    So the narrations are in agreement and the truth has been manifested and clarified, and Allah praise be to Allah!

    - end of quote -


    - As for the narration on the authority of Shaddad bin Aws (radhiallahu 'anhu), then it will be quoted in the next passage by the author himself.

    - As for the narration on the authority of Abu Hurayra - radhiallahu 'anhu - as found in Riyad al-Salihin [under chapter regarding the prohibition of Riya` (showing off)] (originally found in Sahih Muslim), which he most likely intends, then this is it:

    ุณู…ุนุช ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ูŠู‚ูˆู„โ€:โ€ โ€ "โ€ ู‚ุงู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุชุนุงู„ู‰โ€:โ€ ุฃู†ุง ุฃุบู†ู‰ ุงู„ุดุฑูƒุงุก ุนู† ุงู„ุดุฑูƒุŒ ู…ู† ุนู…ู„ ุนู…ู„ุง ุฃุดุฑูƒ ููŠู‡ ู…ุนูŠ ุบูŠุฑูŠุŒ ุชุฑูƒุชู‡ ูˆุดุฑูƒู‡

    The Messenger of Allah (๏ทบ) said, "Almighty Allah says, 'I am the One Who is most free from want of partners. He who does a thing for the sake of someone else beside Me, I discard him and his polytheism."
    - end of quote -

    - And this is the narration on the authority of Mahmud bin Labid - rahimahullah - as found in Bulugh al-Maram:

    ู‚ูŽุงู„ูŽ ุฑูŽุณููˆู„ู ุงูŽู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ู โ€- ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… โ€-{ ุฅูู†ู‘ูŽ ุฃูŽุฎู’ูˆูŽููŽ ู…ูŽุง ุฃูŽุฎูŽุงูู ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ูƒูู…ู’ ุงูŽู„ุดู‘ูุฑู’ูƒู ุงูŽู„ู’ุฃูŽุตู’ุบูŽุฑู: ุงูŽู„ุฑู‘ููŠูŽุงุกู } ุฃูŽุฎู’ุฑูŽุฌูŽู‡ู ุฃูŽุญู’ู…ูŽุฏู ุจูุณูŽู†ูŽุฏู ุญูŽุณูŽู†ู

    The Messenger of Allah (๏ทบ) said: โ€œThe thing I fear most for you is the lesser shirk (polytheism), showing-off (of good deeds).โ€
    Related by Ahmad with a good chain of narrators.

    - end of quote -
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 21-11-20, 09:13 PM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    The Prophet ๏ทบ was not afraid that his nation will fall into [greater] polytheism


    Al-Shaykh Al-'Allama Sulayman bin 'Abd al-Wahhab al-Hanbali (d. 1208/1210 AH) stated the following in his al-Sawa'iq al-Ilahiyya (see p. 103 - 104):

    ูˆู…ู…ุง ูŠุฏู„ ุนู„ู‰ ุจุทู„ุงู† ู…ุฐู‡ุจูƒู… ู…ุงููŠ ุงู„ุตุญูŠุญูŠู† ุนู† ุนู‚ุจุฉ ุจู† ุนุงู…ุฑ ุงู† ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุตุนุฏ ุงู„ู…ู†ุจุฑ ูู‚ุงู„ ุงู†ูŠ ู„ุณุช ุงุฎุดู‰ ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุงู† ุชุดุฑูƒูˆุง ุจุนุฏูŠ ูˆู„ูƒู† ุงุฎุดู‰ ุนู„ูŠูƒู… ุงู„ุฏู†ูŠุง ุงู† ุชู†ุงูุณูˆุง ููŠู‡ุง ูุชู‚ุชู„ูˆุง ูุชู‡ู„ูƒูˆุง ูƒู…ุง ู‡ู„ูƒ ู…ู† ูƒุงู† ู‚ุจู„ูƒู… ู‚ุงู„ ุนู‚ุจุฉ ููƒุงู† ุขุฎุฑ ู…ุงุฑุงูŠุช ุฑุณูˆู„ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุนู„ู‰ ุงู„ู…ู†ุจุฑ (ุงู†ุชู‡ู‰) ูˆุฌู‡ ุงู„ุฏู„ุงู„ุฉ ู…ู†ู‡ ุงู† ุงู„ู†ุจูŠ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุงุฎุจุฑ ุจุฌู…ูŠุน ู…ุงูŠู‚ุน ุนู„ู‰ ุงู…ุชู‡ ูˆู…ู†ู‡ู… ุงู„ู‰ ูŠูˆู… ุงู„ู‚ูŠู…ุฉ ูƒู…ุง ุฐูƒุฑ ููŠ ุงุญุงุฏูŠุซ ุงุฎุฑ ู„ูŠุณ ู‡ุฐุง ู…ูˆุถุนู‡ุง ูˆู…ู…ุง ุงุฎุจุฑ ุจู‡ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุญุฏูŠุซ ุงู„ุตุญูŠุญ ุงู†ู‡ ุงู…ู† ุงู† ุงู…ุชู‡ ุชุนุจุฏ ุงู„ุงูˆุซุงู† ูˆู„ู… ูŠุฎุงูู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ู… ูˆุงุฎุจุฑู‡ู… ุจุฐู„ูƒ ูˆุงู…ุง ุงู„ุฐูŠ ูŠุฎุงูู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ู… ูุงุฎุจุฑู‡ู… ุจู‡ ูˆุญุฐุฑู‡ู… ู…ู†ู‡ ูˆู…ุน ู‡ุฐุง ููˆู‚ุน ู…ุงุฎุงูู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ู… ูˆู‡ุฐุง ุฎู„ุงู ู…ุฐู‡ุจูƒู… ูุงู† ุงู…ุชู‡ ุนู„ู‰ ู‚ูˆู„ูƒู… ุนุจุฏูˆุง ุงู„ุงุตู†ุงู… ูƒู„ู‡ู… ูˆู…ู„ุฃุช ุงู„ุงูˆุซุงู† ุจู„ุงุฏู‡ู…

    That which also shows the falseness of your [deviant] way is that which is [found reported] in the Sahihayn (see Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim) on the authority of 'Uqba bin 'Amir that the Prophet ๏ทบ ascended the pulpit and said:
    "I am not afraid that you would associate anything with Allah after me, but I am afraid that you may be [allured] by the world and [vie] with one another [in possessing material wealth] and begin killing one another, and you would be destroyed as were destroyed those who had gone before you."
    'Uqba said: "That was the last occasion that I saw Allah's Messenger ๏ทบ on the pulpit."

    The proof here is that the Prophet ๏ทบ informed [us] of all that will happen to his nation and from his nation until the day of judgement just like it was mentioned in other narrations - it's not the place here [to quote them all] - and from that which he informed [us] is this authentic narration [mentioned above] and that is him regarding his nation to be safe from worshiping statues [and idols] and him not being afraid for them [to associate anything with Allah after him] - and he stated this! - and as for that which he was afraid for them, then he stated it and warned them from it.
    But with this [his nation] fell into that which he was afraid for them and this is in opposition to your [deviant] way, because in your statement his nation worshiped idols - all of them - and the idols filled their lands!

    -end of quote -



    The Prophet ๏ทบ sweared by Allah that he was not afraid that we will become polytheists!

    The above narration can also be found in the Sahihayn (see Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim) with a slight different wording also on the authority of 'Uqba bin 'Amir - radhiallahu 'anhu - saying:

    ุฃูŽู†ู‘ูŽ ุฑูŽุณููˆู„ูŽ ุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ู ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ุฎูŽุฑูŽุฌูŽ ูŠูŽูˆู’ู…ู‹ุง ููŽุตูŽู„ู‘ูŽู‰ ุนูŽู„ูŽู‰ ุฃูŽู‡ู’ู„ู ุฃูุญูุฏู ุตูŽู„ุงูŽุชูŽู‡ู ุนูŽู„ูŽู‰ ุงู„ู’ู…ูŽูŠู‘ูุชู ุซูู…ู‘ูŽ ุงู†ู’ุตูŽุฑูŽููŽ ุฅูู„ูŽู‰ ุงู„ู’ู…ูู†ู’ุจูŽุฑู ููŽู‚ูŽุงู„ูŽ โ€ "โ€ ุฅูู†ู‘ููŠ ููŽุฑูŽุทูŒ ู„ูŽูƒูู…ู’ ูˆูŽุฃูŽู†ูŽุง ุดูŽู‡ููŠุฏูŒ ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ูƒูู…ู’ ูˆูŽุฅูู†ู‘ููŠ ูˆูŽุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ู ู„ุฃูŽู†ู’ุธูุฑู ุฅูู„ูŽู‰ ุญูŽูˆู’ุถููŠูŽ ุงู„ุขู†ูŽ ูˆูŽุฅูู†ู‘ููŠ ู‚ูŽุฏู’ ุฃูุนู’ุทููŠุชู ู…ูŽููŽุงุชููŠุญูŽ ุฎูŽุฒูŽุงุฆูู†ู ุงู„ุฃูŽุฑู’ุถู ุฃูŽูˆู’ ู…ูŽููŽุงุชููŠุญูŽ ุงู„ุฃูŽุฑู’ุถู ูˆูŽุฅูู†ู‘ููŠ ูˆูŽุงู„ู„ู‘ูŽู‡ู ู…ูŽุง ุฃูŽุฎูŽุงูู ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ูƒูู…ู’ ุฃูŽู†ู’ ุชูุดู’ุฑููƒููˆุง ุจูŽุนู’ุฏููŠ ูˆูŽู„ูŽูƒูู†ู’ ุฃูŽุฎูŽุงูู ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ูƒูู…ู’ ุฃูŽู†ู’ ุชูŽุชูŽู†ูŽุงููŽุณููˆุง ูููŠู‡ูŽุง

    One day the Prophet (๏ทบ) went out and offered the funeral prayers of the martyrs of Uhud and then went up the pulpit and said:
    "I shall be present there [at the Cistern] before you. I shall be your witness and, by Allah, I perceive as if I am seeing with my own eyes my Cistern at this very state and I have been given the keys of the treasures of the earth or the keys of the earth and, BY ALLAH, I am not afraid concerning you that you would associate anything [with Allah] AFTER ME, but I am afraid that you would be vying with one another for [the possession of the treasures of the earth]."

    - end of quote -


    Our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - swears by Allah ta'ala that he's not afraid for his Umma to fall into [greater] polytheism, so who is there to reject his blessed words? No one dares to do so [knowingly] except that he leaves the religion!

    Know that according to MIAW's (d. 1206 AH) religion the Muslims used to "worship graves" and that is why he would call these graves as "idols" (Asnam) and this in OPEN OPPOSITION to the words of the Chosen One, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam.


    A little bit after the above quote the Shaykh Sulayman stated (see p. 104):

    ูƒู„ ู‡ุฐุง ู…ู…ุชู„ู‰ุก ู…ู…ุง ุฒุนู…ุชู… ุงู†ู‡ ุงู„ุงุตู†ุงู… ูˆู‚ู„ุชู… ู…ู† ู„ู… ูŠูƒูุฑ ู…ู† ูุนู„ ู‡ุฐู‡ ุงู„ุงู…ูˆุฑ ูˆุงู„ุงูุนุงู„ ูู‡ูˆ ูƒุงูุฑ ูˆู…ุนู„ูˆู… ุงู† ุงู„ู…ุณู„ูŠู…ู† ูƒู„ู‡ู… ุงุฌุฑูˆุง ุงู„ุงุณู„ุงู… ุนู„ู‰ ู…ู† ุงู†ุชุณุจ ุงู„ูŠู‡ ูˆู„ู… ูŠูƒูุฑูˆุง ู…ู† ูุนู„ ู‡ุฐุง ูุนู„ู‰ ู‚ูˆู„ูƒู… ุฌู…ูŠุน ุจู„ุงุฏ ุงู„ุงุณู„ุงู… ูƒูุงุฑ ุงู„ุง ุจู„ุฏูƒู… ูˆุงู„ุนุฌุจ ุงู† ู‡ุฐุง ู…ุง ุญุฏุซ ููŠ ุจู„ุฏูƒู… ู„ุง ู…ู† ู‚ุฑูŠุจ ุนุดุฑ ุณู†ุฉ ูุจุงู† ุจู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุญุฏูŠุซ ุฎุทุฃูˆูƒู… ูˆุงู„ุญู…ุฏ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุฑุจ ุงู„ุนุงู„ู…ูŠู†

    All these [lands] are filled with that which you claim to be "idols" and you say that whosoever does not perform Takfir (excommunication) of those doing these things and actions then he's [also] a disbeliever [according to you]. [While] it's known that the Muslims - all of them! - have passed [the ruling of] Islam upon those who have associated themselves with it and they did not perform Takfir of the one doing [any of] this. So upon your statement all of the lands of Islam are disbelievers except your land. What is [really] astonishing is that which happened in your land (which includes the desecration of Muslim graves including the one of the companion Zayd bin al-Khattab, radhiallahu 'anhu) is less than ten years ago!
    So this narration manifests your mistake [and falseness], and all praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds!

    - end of quote -
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 21-11-20, 09:12 PM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post

    Yes, either way he didn't say it was Shirk so it's clear it goes against what the Najdi Da3wah preaches. Not some solid evidence to support their stance at all. And that while they dedicated a whole site to address and defend these issues. Whenever I read those things in the past I never thought about it like this. But subhaanAllah, seems like I can't support this Da3wah any longer.
    โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹
    Indeed, there is is no solid proof whatsoever.

    The thing is: If something is so important that it differentiates between being a monotheist and a polytheist, then it would be expected to have been clarified by hundreds of classical scholars in a clear cut manner and in detail, but we do not find most of the things that MIAW (d. 1206 AH) regards as "greater polytheism" to be even mentioned ONCE in any of the known books of creed, be they Ash'ari or Athari.

    Rather what we find is that it's mentioned in the books of Fiqh and some of these things are called by the scholars as forbidden and as major sins, and other things are only disliked, while one finds even issues which they allowed or even recommended and the best example is the seeking of intercession with the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - during the visitation, which is recommended in most major Fiqh books of ALL four Madhahib.

    There is another important point that one should not forget:
    Our noble Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - was sent as the Seal of all Messengers and Prophets - peace be upon them all - and he explained the religion in the best form and did not leave his Umma without warning them what he was afraid for them and what not, because he - 'alayhil salatu wal salam - was informed by His Lord what will happen to his nation and from his nation until the day of judgement.

    The Tawhid that the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - was sent with is mentioned in Surat al-Ikhlas and the important issues of the religion are mentioned in the famous Hadith of Jibril - peace be upon him - and whosoever believes in these is a Muslim.
    The so called Kitab al-Tawhid of MIAW can NOT override these sources, because they're revelation!

    So let us now see whether our Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - was afraid for his nation to fall into greater polytheism and the worship of idols - as the Najdis claim! - or not.


    { ููŽู„ูŽุง ูˆูŽุฑูŽุจูู‘ูƒูŽ ู„ูŽุง ูŠูุคู’ู…ูู†ููˆู†ูŽ ุญูŽุชู‘ูŽู‰ูฐ ูŠูุญูŽูƒูู‘ู…ููˆูƒูŽ ูููŠู…ูŽุง ุดูŽุฌูŽุฑูŽ ุจูŽูŠู’ู†ูŽู‡ูู…ู’ ุซูู…ู‘ูŽ ู„ูŽุง ูŠูŽุฌูุฏููˆุง ูููŠ ุฃูŽู†ููุณูู‡ูู…ู’ ุญูŽุฑูŽุฌู‹ุง ู…ูู‘ู…ู‘ูŽุง ู‚ูŽุถูŽูŠู’ุชูŽ ูˆูŽูŠูุณูŽู„ูู‘ู…ููˆุง ุชูŽุณู’ู„ููŠู…ู‹ุง }

    { But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Messenger], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission. }

    [Al-Qur`an al-karim 4:65 with English interpretation]
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 21-11-20, 08:54 PM.

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post
    I used to follow MiaW, but after looking into it and questioning everything he said, I came to the comclusion that Ibn Taymiyyah would free himself from such a person and his dawah
    Alhamdulillah.

    We should really not mention this person with any of the classical scholars (whether it's al-Hafidh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) or other than him). MIAW (d. 1206 AH) was not a scholar in any way or form.
    Can a person who does not know basic sciences of the Arabic language ever be a scholar?
    And we say to the evil Najdi Sulayman bin Sahman (d. 1349 AH) who claimed that "not being able to answer these questions (!) [regarding the science of rhetoric in the Arabic language] does not indicate his lack of proficiency in the religious sciences like Hadith, Tafsir and Fiqh":
    By Allah, it does indicates this and even more! He can't be even regarded as a serious student of knowledge let alone a leading scholar!

    Would a scholar call the lands of the Muslims - especially the Hijaz, Yemen and the Levant (which are all praised by the Messenger of Allah, sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam) - as lands of polytheism and accuse the Muslim population of worshiping idols? Would a Muslim - let alone a scholar! - act as if the proof has not been established upon those who have heard about the Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and that it is only established after them hearing about his (IAW's) own call?!?

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by Linkdeutscher View Post

    MiAW always had a sketchy aura to him. Good thing is I never actually praised or ascribed myself to him in any way. And most modern Salafis don't even follow his principles correctly according to my understanding. May Allah have mercy on him.
    The aura that he has is that of a false prophet.
    Most "Salafis" do follow at least SOME of his principles and this is bad enough. This is why whenever they hear "Shirk akbar", they directly think of other Muslims, wallahul musta'an.

    May Allah ta'ala have mercy upon the Umma of our Master Muhammad - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and punish whosoever oppresses and kills them.

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  • Linkdeutscher
    replied
    Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post
    I used to follow MiaW, but after looking into it and questioning everything he said, I came to the comclusion that Ibn Taymiyyah would free himself from such a person and his dawah
    MiAW always had a sketchy aura to him. Good thing is I never actually praised or ascribed myself to him in any way. And most modern Salafis don't even follow his principles correctly according to my understanding. May Allah have mercy on him.

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  • TheHaqq
    replied
    I used to follow MiaW, but after looking into it and questioning everything he said, I came to the comclusion that Ibn Taymiyyah would free himself from such a person and his dawah

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  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

    To be honest I don't think I'm familiar with a direct quote from Ibn Taymiyyah explaining this issue. Most Salafis give the answer that the meaning of Yad is known without explicitly defining it. Definitions such as 'limbs' or 'parts' are commonly rejected and this could be found in books like Sharh Aqeedah at-Tahawiyya.

    The above would not contravene Hanbali Tafwid al-Ma'na because the Kayf or modality is not being described.

    However, the Salafis would still maintain that the meaning of Yad is known because the description in the revelation corresponds with our general understanding of the term on a conceptual level. We have hands that are body parts which we use to perform physical tasks. Allah also has an Attribute called Hands that are apart of His Divine Essence which He performs various tasks with as explained in the revelation. Although the howness or modality of Allah's Divine Hands are unknown, the idea of His Hands are relatable to us on a finite level due to the way he purposely created us.
    (I will use the term Taymiyyan instead of 'Salafi' as I think it is a neutral term).

    Tafwid al-Kayf admitting Tafwid al-Ma'na

    There are indeed Atharis, including the academics amongst them, who interpret Tafweed al-Kayf as essentially the same thing as Tafweed al-Ma'na. These Taymiyyans are happy to negate place, dimension etc. I say if you cannot ascribe a clear meaning then that is Tafwid al-Ma'na.

    I think the problem Ash'aris have with the Taymiyyans is that they fear when they say, "Tafwid al-Kayf" that the Taymiyyans are admitting possibility of form i.e. width, length, height or other dimension, and are saying that we know Allah has a Yad but not if it has delimitation i.e. a form (admitting that it may or may not) and if it does then what exact form that Yad is. I.e. that they imply Allah may have Miqdar (size) but do not say the exact Kayf of his size i.e. how big or small he is - if he has it.

    E.g.

    "I say I have a face and that a dog also has a face. Now suppose I say there is an alien with a face. Do we know how his face is? No but we know he has a face."

    My first question to you is, would you say the alien in the above example is subject to Tafwid al-Kayf?

    What would the Ash'ari, Maturidi and Mufawwid Athari such as Shaykh Yusuf bin Sadiq al-Hanbali (who calls Ibn Taymiyyah Shaykh ul-Islam and does not call him a Mujassim), require of a follower of Taymiyyan doctrine to say they are a Sunni Muslim?

    In my opinion I agree with the opinion of those Athari who say Tafwid al-Kayf is a linguistical difference with Tafwid al-Ma'na, and that they are in essence the same thing. But I require someone who does Tafwid al-Kayf to negate limitation.

    Otherwise, when someone says, "Allah has a Yad and it is not a limb" - well what does their negation of limb mean? It is essentially meaningless unless it is taken to be a negation of a protruding physicallity (with all such physicallity negated).

    So there are four groups of Taymiyyans:
    1. Those who affirm Tafwid al-Kayf as not actually different to Tafwid al-Ma'na, who negate dimensionality for Allah. (e.g. Allah having Miqdar is Muhal/Mustahil).
    2. Those who affirm Tafwid al-Kayf as not actually different to Tafwid al-Ma'na, but believe dimensionality is neither affirmed nor negated - that it is a possibility. (Allah having Miqdar is Mumkin).
    3. Those who say Tafwid al-Kayf is different to Tafwid al-Ma'na, but believe dimensionality is neither affirmed nor negated - that it is a possibility. (Allah having Miqdar is Mumkin).
    4. Those who say Tafwid al-Kayf is different to Tafwid al-Ma'na, and believe dimensionality is actually necessary for Allah (Allah having Miqdar is Wajib).

    We would regard those followers of Ibn Taymiyyah of group 1 to be Sunni Muslims, e.g. this guy. They are sometimes the academic types who have studied Ibn Taymiyyah's works and have also studied al-Ghazali etc. works. They are supporters of Ibn Taymiyyah and defend Tafwid al-Kayfiyyah, and quote Ibn Taymiyyah frequently and mention creed from works like Sharh Aqeedah Tahawiyyah of Ibn al-Izz al-Hanafi. They maintain what started as Hanbali terminology (e.g. differentiating Tawhid al-Rubbobiyyah etc.) And yet they deny place, direction etc. They consider the Ash'ari wrong with regards to many things, but principally not Ilm al-Kalam (as Ibn Taymiyyah engages in it), or negating corporeality. They tend also to be very interested in Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibnul Qayyim's philosophical views.

    Those of group 2 and 3 think the Ash'ari etc. are being Irrational because they think there is nothing wrong with Allah possibly having dimension and they do not conceive anything contradicting reason. The statement, "It is not necessary for something to have dimension" to them comes back on the Ash'ari etc. as they say "well why do you make it necessary for Allah to not have dimension then?" i.e. they assume that the ruling for anything existant is that dimension is possible.

    I feel that the Taymiyyans of group 4 who believe Allah is a physical dimensioned being, think that the Ash'ari etc. who are saying he can't, are negating him because in their mind the only things that can exist are physical dimensioned beings.



    The followers of group 1 are Sunnis then who we can accept as non-Mainstream Athari. Their thought is similar to the thought of some (but not all) early Hanabilah. This is how some of the Athari and a few of the Ash'ari justify the doctrines of Ibn Taymiyyah as not being Tajsim.

    The followers of group 2 and 3 are Muslims but by entertaining the possibility of corporeality they enter into innovation. It is difficult to say whether they are clear cut Mujassimah - but they are opening the door to that so should be regarded with them.

    The followers of group 4 are disbelievers.

    By the way, not all the Taymiyyans of group 1 consider the Ash'ari themselves as being Sunni - what I am talking about is a one-way conception by the Ash'ari/Maturidi/Mufawwid Athari as to the Taymiyyans of group 1. Otherwise there are Taymiyyans of group 1 who hate the Ash'ari and say they are Jahmiyyah, thinking they hold the same beliefs or definitions as Aristotle and ironicaly quote from the likes of Bin Baz etc.

    So my second question to you is, which of the four groups mentioned above would you put yourself in (if you were to put yourself in one of them)?
    Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 19-11-20, 02:03 PM.

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  • AmantuBillahi
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    So let's say I don't know the meaning of Yad (translated 'Hand') - which I don't.

    What does Ibn Taymiyyah say its meaning is?
    To be honest I don't think I'm familiar with a direct quote from Ibn Taymiyyah explaining this issue. Most Salafis give the answer that the meaning of Yad is known without explicitly defining it. Definitions such as 'limbs' or 'parts' are commonly rejected and this could be found in books like Sharh Aqeedah at-Tahawiyya.

    The above would not contravene Hanbali Tafwid al-Ma'na because the Kayf or modality is not being described.

    However, the Salafis would still maintain that the meaning of Yad is known because the description in the revelation corresponds with our general understanding of the term on a conceptual level. We have hands that are body parts which we use to perform physical tasks. Allah also has an Attribute called Hands that are apart of His Divine Essence which He performs various tasks with as explained in the revelation. Although the howness or modality of Allah's Divine Hands are unknown, the idea of His Hands are relatable to us on a finite level due to the way he purposely created us.

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  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

    Although I'm sure brother Abu Sulayman understood what I meant given our previous discussions, I just wanted to clarify that I'm referring to the diversity of opinions amongst the earlier Hanbalis and the correct interpretation of the scholars who succeeded them. I personally don't think that Ibn Taymiyyah was fundamentally at odds with the Hanbali Madhhab despite his variant use of theological terminology.

    The concept of Tafwid within the Hanbali Madhhab is broad enough to potentially classify Ibn Taymiyyah as a Mufawwid himself. Tafwid al-Ma'na doesn't entail that the meanings are completely unknown or else the entire concept of Uluw and Istiwa bi-Dhatihi would be a self-contradiction. Through this angle if we are able to conflate between the Kayf and the Ma'na like the Hanbali Madhhab evidently does, then Ibn Taymiyyah should also be considered a Mufawwid on the basis that he consigns the knowledge of the Kayf to Allah which is technically the Ma'na. Even when it comes to Sifat Khabariyya Ibn Taymiyyah doesn't provide a Tahdid such as limb for Yad.

    Anyways, I don't mean to derail the thread with all of this. May Allah guide us to the straight path and distinguish truth from falsehood.
    So let's say I don't know the meaning of Yad (translated 'Hand') - which I don't.

    What does Ibn Taymiyyah say its meaning is?

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  • AmantuBillahi
    replied
    Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    What is fundamentally true for virtually all of the Hanbalis/Atharis is that the Attributes are to be affirmed without making Ta'wil. Allah is to be described in the manner that He described Himself and by what has been authentically reported from the Prophet(saws). As for the details concerning the implications of the Attributes it differs to various extents depending on the circumstance. I don't deny that some of the Hanaabilah were Mufaawida (to a fault), but I also recognize the nuance in their terminologies. There was an example I quoted from an Azhari Hanbali scholar explaining the difference between the Hanbali and Ash'ari usage of "Bi la-Kayf". He also made a comment which confirmed that his negation of the "Ma'na" is literally conflated with his negation (ignorance) of the "Kayf".
    Although I'm sure brother Abu Sulayman understood what I meant given our previous discussions, I just wanted to clarify that I'm referring to the diversity of opinions amongst the earlier Hanbalis and the correct interpretation of the scholars who succeeded them. I personally don't think that Ibn Taymiyyah was fundamentally at odds with the Hanbali Madhhab despite his variant use of theological terminology.

    The concept of Tafwid within the Hanbali Madhhab is broad enough to potentially classify Ibn Taymiyyah as a Mufawwid himself. Tafwid al-Ma'na doesn't entail that the meanings are completely unknown or else the entire concept of Uluw and Istiwa bi-Dhatihi would be a self-contradiction. Through this angle if we are able to conflate between the Kayf and the Ma'na like the Hanbali Madhhab evidently does, then Ibn Taymiyyah should also be considered a Mufawwid on the basis that he consigns the knowledge of the Kayf to Allah which is technically the Ma'na. Even when it comes to Sifat Khabariyya Ibn Taymiyyah doesn't provide a Tahdid such as limb for Yad.

    Anyways, I don't mean to derail the thread with all of this. May Allah guide us to the straight path and distinguish truth from falsehood.

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  • TazkiyyatunNafs
    replied
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
    Seems like we were not referring to the same quote.
    I was referring to a quote from al-Funun, which was mentioned by Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597 AH) and which "Salafis" sometimes mistakenly use.

    As for your quote, then itโ€™s also from al-Funun (but itโ€™s a different passage) and quoted by Imam Ibn Muflih (d. 763 AH) in al-Furu', who by the way supports Tawassul in the very same book.

    From the context it seems he's referring to wrong ways of veneration as done by the Shi'a (because he mentions the word Mashhad) and not necessarily having a problem with Tawassul in itself.

    HERE is also a response.

    Whatever the case: What Imam Ibn 'Aqil (d. 513 AH) recommended in al-Tadhkira is clear and "Shirk akbar" according to the logic of the "Salafi", who added the footnotes.

    MIAW's son is also very clear that they were killing the people of their time for this very seeking of intercession with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and even ADMITS that this was supported by classical scholars.
    Their "logic" was: MIAW's call had not reached these classical scholars so one may "excuse" them for their "Shirk akbar", but it has reached the people of our time - who are on the very same thing as those classical scholars - and this gives us the right to slaughter them all!

    Their mindset is catastrophic, because it implies that MIAW is a prophet and that one is obliged to follow him.
    In fact it gives him a station above that of Prophets (peace be upon them), because not following the Prophets without fighting them does not make one's blood allowed to be spilled, while the Najdis allowed the blood of every one who didnโ€™t believe in MIAW in their time no matter what!

    There is actually a quote (in al-Durar al-Saniyya if I remember correctly), which I have not posted until now, where a number of leading Najdis basically claim that one is obliged to follow MIAW and that otherwise one will be from the people of hellfire.
    The disaster here is that this statement in itself may lead to the hellfire.
    Yes, either way he didn't say it was Shirk so it's clear it goes against what the Najdi Da3wah preaches. Not some solid evidence to support their stance at all. And that while they dedicated a whole site to address and defend these issues. Whenever I read those things in the past I never thought about it like this. But subhaanAllah, seems like I can't support this Da3wah any longer.
    โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹

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  • Abu Sulayman
    replied
    Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post

    Yes he mentions a number of things, but I'm confused how it's not regarding Tawassul as well? The Arabic literally says: ูˆุงู„ุชูˆุณู„ ุจู‡ู… ุฅู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡. I've read your comment on the other thread and that is specifically about making Tawassul through the prophet ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู…. Does Imam Ibn Aqeel perhaps differentiate?

    Edited to add: this quote was taken from al-Furoo
    Seems like we were not referring to the same quote.

    I was referring to a quote from al-Funun, which was mentioned by Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597 AH) and which "Salafis" sometimes mistakenly use.

    As for your quote, then itโ€™s also from al-Funun (but itโ€™s a different passage) and quoted by Imam Ibn Muflih (d. 763 AH) in al-Furu', who by the way supports Tawassul in the very same book.

    From the context it seems he's referring to wrong ways of veneration as done by the Shi'a (because he mentions the word Mashhad) and not necessarily having a problem with Tawassul in itself.

    HERE is also a response.

    Whatever the case: What Imam Ibn 'Aqil (d. 513 AH) recommended in al-Tadhkira is clear and "Shirk akbar" according to the logic of the "Salafi", who added the footnotes.

    MIAW's son is also very clear that they were killing the people of their time for this very seeking of intercession with the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and even ADMITS that this was supported by classical scholars.

    Their "logic" was: MIAW's call had not reached these classical scholars so one may "excuse" them for their "Shirk akbar", but it has reached the people of our time - who are on the very same thing as those classical scholars - and this gives us the right to slaughter them all!

    Their mindset is catastrophic, because it implies that MIAW is a prophet and that one is obliged to follow him.
    In fact it gives him a station above that of Prophets (peace be upon them), because not following the Prophets without fighting them does not make one's blood allowed to be spilled, while the Najdis allowed the blood of every one who didnโ€™t believe in MIAW in their time no matter what!

    There is actually a quote (in al-Durar al-Saniyya if I remember correctly), which I have not posted until now, where a number of leading Najdis basically claim that one is obliged to follow MIAW and that otherwise one will be from the people of hellfire.
    The disaster here is that this statement in itself may lead to the hellfire.
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 18-11-20, 01:01 PM.

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  • TazkiyyatunNafs
    replied
    Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

    What makes me view Mufti Muneer as a hardliner is his identification with the Salafi label, methodology in Fiqh, reverance of the modern Salafi scholars, sympathy for Ibn Abdul Wahhab, etc. I guess the term is better suited for the Madaakhilah but it depends on how you look at it. In any case, he's definitely someone who claims to be Salafi regardless if the gatekeepers have thrown him off the Manhaj.
    I understand and agree.

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