The Intra-Sunni Divide: A history of the schools of Aqeedah wrt Sifat

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

The meaning of the Ayat are understood as already shown through the Tafsir of Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH).
What is not known is the real meaning of the divine attributes themselves, because it's connected to the reality (Haqiqa or Kunh) of the divine Self, which is beyond comprehension.

Nobody is claiming to be able to 'comprehend' Allah .

[Muhammad Hasan]

What they actually believed is that God can not be described with attributes that are additionally to the divine Self in the first place.
This is something that the opponents here do not even know.

No, no I think you misunderstand.

Abu Abdullah said, "It means that none of Allah's attributes are known which is highly problematic."

We know Allah's attributes such as seeing, hearing, speech (Kalam) - the Quran is an example of this.

But there are some attributes we don't know the meaning of, such as Yad, Wajh etc. We affirm these as attributes and do not give an interpretation (Athari/Early Ashari view) or affirm them and sometimes give a figurative interpretation (Late Ashari/Maturidi view).

He's wrongly construed what you are saying to mean that we do not know of any of Allah's attributes e.g. Allah's Rahma (mercy) - which we do know and experience on a daily basis.

The Mutazilites as you have stated denied Allah's attributes additional to the self - they would not even affirm Allah is Hayy (alive). Abu Abdullah seems to think you are rejecting knowledge of these attributes.

[Muhammad Hasan]

Allah is 'al-Ahad.'

Oh no, what does 'al-Ahad' mean... does it really mean Allah is ONE? Perhaps we shouldn't interpret this attribute because we can't say for sure that we definitely know that Allah is ONE. It's best to just say we believe Allah is ''al-Ahad' without delving into the meaning.

/sarcasm

Yes I agree with you it would be ridiculous to not affirm or know that. Ahlus Sunnah do not do that, the Mutazilah do.

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Yes I agree with you it would be ridiculous to not affirm or know that. Ahlus Sunnah do not do that, the Mutazilah do.

You believe Allah sees and hears?

[Muhammad Hasan]

You believe Allah sees and hears?

Subhanallah, Yes we affirm Allah hears and sees:

Certainly has Allah heard the speech of the one who argues with you, [O Muhammad], concerning her husband and directs her complaint to Allah. And Allah hears your dialogue; indeed, Allah is Hearing and Seeing.

(Sahih International's Interpretation of al-Quran, Surah al-Mujadilah, verse 1)

You nearly gave me heart attack brother!

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Subhanallah, Yes we affirm Allah hears and sees:



You nearly gave me heart attack brother!

Oh, translations. I thought you told me to 'stick to the following' and just affirm only.

-_-

[Muhammad Hasan]

It can be translated, if there is no fear of misunderstandings (as in the above case).

This however does not change the fact that the real meaning of the divine attributes is only known to Allah ta'ala, because it is connected to the reality of the divine Self and this is beyond our comprehension.
(This is something that Athari scholars have vehemently defended.)

On a different note:
The time to edit posts is really very short. The death date of the above mentioned Hanbali scholar is 1181 AH and not 1184 AH as accidentally written.

We should stop, I don't know think we will make any difference, and I think there is a real danger that some of the members on here could start uttering Serious Innovation/Kufr.

Let us remind ourselves of the Hadith:

Yūnus reports: Maymūn b. Mihr�nonce wrote to me saying:
Beware of dispute and argumentation about the religion, and do not argue with a scholar nor an ignoramus. As for the scholar, he will withhold his knowledge from you, and will not be concerned with what you do. As for the ignorant person, he will only cause roughness in your heart and he will not obey you [anyway].

- Sunan ad-Darimi, Hadith 302

[Muhammad Hasan]

Oh, translations. I thought you told me to 'stick to the following' and just affirm only.

-_-

When I said that I was talking about those attributes that can sound human-like if someone applies them to people and translates them into english e.g. Yad, Wajh etc. I wasn't giving you a blanket rule to start denying Allah's oneness, existance, mercy, ability to see all, ability to hear all etc. Subhanallah!

[Muhammad Hasan]

Just a quick sanity check, brother Abu Abdullah, you do affirm that Allah can see and hear right?

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

When I said that I was talking about those attributes that can sound human-like if someone applies them to people and translates them into english e.g. Yad, Wajh etc. I wasn't giving you a blanket rule to start denying Allah's oneness, existance, mercy, ability to see all, ability to hear all etc. Subhanallah!

The ability to see and hear doesn't at all sound human-like, does it...

See what you've started?

[Muhammad Hasan]

The ability to see and hear doesn't at all sound human-like, does it...

See what you've started?

No they don't - when I state Allah hears and sees an anthopomorphic image does not come into my head.

When I say (astagfirullah) Allah has a literal hand, having two such hands and has a literal feet and has a literal face etc. What image do you think comes in my head?

Return to Surah Ikhlas.

Edit: Also this wording "literal" is biddah, as is translation as the Sahabah never spoke english.

[Muhammad Hasan]

I'll ask you again, do you affirm that Allah hears and sees?

After you answer this (in the positive) I will leave this debate, there is no point debating.

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

No they don't - when I state Allah hears and sees an anthopomorphic image does not come into my head.

When I say (astagfirullah) Allah has a literal hand, having two such hands and has a literal feet and has a literal face etc. What image do you think comes in my head?

Return to Surah Ikhlas...

OK, so I don't have any images in my head when Allah is mentioned. I was right about you trying to project something on to me.

If someone gets 'images' in their head with regards to the verse that Allah sees and hears, they should stop saying and believing in those translations/interpretations?

...Edit: Also this wording "literal" is biddah, as is translation as the Sahabah never spoke english.

No idea what you're talking about here.

[Muhammad Hasan]

OK, so I don't have any images in my head when Allah is mentioned. I was right about you trying to project something on to me.

If someone gets 'images' in their head with regards to the verse that Allah sees and hears, they should stop saying and believing in those translations/interpretations?

No idea what you're talking about here.

It is not possible to get images in your head with regards to Allah seeing and hearing.

Answer the question, do you affirm Allah sees and hears?

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

It is not possible to get images in your head with regards to Allah seeing and hearing.

Answer the question, do you affirm Allah sees and hears?

Because you haven't experienced it? Well, I can say the same for 'Yad' so now what?

Of course I affirm that Allah sees and hears!