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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • eesa the kiwi
    replied
    You clowns still at it?

    Leave for a week and you're still going round in circles

    Least a dog catches his own tail eventually SubhanAllah

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  • maturidee
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
    I do not even hold this view (of the Ash'ari and Maturidi regarding letters and words) and yet I can understand and respect it, why is it so difficult for you?
    Their view does not make sense, i showed what kind of absurd tawil Ghazzali made of the eternal commands and prohibitions. Did you even read it?

    I simply believe that all knowledge comes from Allaah and that He spoke and can speak in any language.

    Alle knowledge comes from Him. The knowledge to build planes comes from Him, the knowledge of mathmatics comes from him, all ilm comes from Him and all Muslims are agreed to this. The Arabic lugha or any other lugha, is from the knowledge of Allaah. It is kufr to say that “man created language” because this is saying that the essence of this ilm comes from man and not Allaah. It does not matter in the manner of how languages came about, the fact remains that the knowledge contained in anything is essentially from Allaah. That is the meaning of believing that Allaah is the possessor of all knowledge.

    If one were to call the Arabic language created as it is the action and implementation of the ilm of Allaah, then one must as well say that Allaah’s act of creating Adam is as well created, and this is essentially absurd. The only thing that can be said is that language, its development, has been developed and adopted by men through experience.

    The arabic language, the result of its creation was according to Allaah’s will for it to be formulated through the experience of men, like all other languages. In other words, we call the creation of the actual airplane to be created. However, with regards to its knowledge (in how it is performed) this knowledge comes from the knowledge of Allaah. No one says “man invented or formed this knowledge” except for the athiests. It is Allaah who facilitated this knowledge to various men.

    Certain Muslim scholars, especially those of the tenth century, who dealt with the topic of the origin of language, have identified several theories:

    1. The naturalist theory= claims that language has its origin in munaasaba tabi’iyya i.e. natural affinity, between expression and the things they signify.

    2. The conventional theory= claims that the origin of language is based on social convention i.e. what everyone comes together and agrees upon.

    3. The Revelationist theory= and this is the sunni view= this theory is what orthodox Sunni favor the most. It is based on the idea that language was originally revealed to man by God.

    4. The non committal theory= claims that language is not absolutely the revelationalist theory nor the conventional theory, but some of both.

    So in essence, it is we, the sunnis who have always held that classical language is what Allaah has given us from His knowledge. Most of the sunnis have adopted the revelationist theory.

    In essence, the knowledge of arabic language is from the knowledges of the Ilm of Allaah. The knowledge thereof is from Allaah. Hence when Allaah speaks with language it is uncreated, because He Himself is uncreated, but when we initiatie speech from ourself (i.e not quoting the Qur'aan for example), our speech is created.


    Summary:

    Since Allaah's attribute of kalaam (speech) is eternal (in its genus), and through His kalaam He communicates with those whom He creates, and this communication is in a language understood by those communicated with, and all of that is in the prior knowledge of Allaah, that He will speak to His creation through a language amongst languages, then "language" in this sense (as in Allaah speaking) cannot be created from this perspective. Rather, language is only said to be created when attributed to humankind, in what they speak and express. Further, Allaah, the Exalted, taught Aadam (alayhis salaam) the names of all things and Allah, the Sublime taught Aadam in a language that Aadam didn't knew, but which Allaah knew (so language was inspired and taught).
    Last edited by maturidee; 3 weeks ago.

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  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by maturidee View Post
    Ibn Jareer at-Tabari (d. 310H) Sends the Jahmite Ash'aris Fleeing From Their Secret Hideouts: There is Only One Qur'aan, Uncreated and Whoever Claims Otherwise Is a Cursed, Forsaken Kaafir.


    The Creed of Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Jareer at-Tabari


    Ubaydullaah bin Muhammad bin Ahmad informed us - reading to him - he said: Al-Qaadee Abu Bakr Ahmad bin Kaamil informed us, saying: Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Jareer said:

    The first of that which we begin with regarding that is the Speech of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic and His Revelation, since they are from the meanings of His Tawheed.

    So what is correct of the speech regarding that, in our view, is that it is the Speech of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, it is not created in whichever manner it may be written or when it is recited, in whatever place it may be recited, whether it is found in the heaven or upon the earth, however it may be preserved - whether written in the Lawh il-Mahfoodh (the Preserved Tablet) or in the copies of the children of the Qur'aanic schools, or inscribed on a stone and written on paper or leaf, whether memorized in the heart, or spoken by the tongue.

    Whoever says other than this, or claims there is a Qur'aan in the earth or in the heaven other than the Qur'aan that which we recite with our tongues, and which we write in the masaahif (copies of the Qur'aan), or who believes this in his heart or who conceals such a belief in his heart, or who professes it with his tongue, then he is a kaafir whose blood and wealth is lawful and who is free from Allaah and Allaah is free from him - due to the saying of Allaah, lofty be His praise:

    Nay! This is a Glorious Qur'an (Inscribed) in Al-Lawh Al-Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)! (Al-Buruj 85:21-22)







    And He said, and His saying is the truth:

    And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an).. (At-Tawbah 9:6)







    So He informed us, lofty be His praise that it is in the Preserved Tablet, written, and that it is heard from the tongue of the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) and it is a single Qur'aan, heard from Muhammad and written in the Preserved Tablet, and likewise, memorized in the hearts, and recited upon the tongues of the shuyookh (old) and the children (young).

    So whoever reports or quotes from us, or fabricates a saying against us, or claims against us that we say anything other than that, then upon him is the curse of Allaah and His Anger, and the curse of those who curse, [and the curse of] the Angels, and mankind, altogether. Allaah will not accept any effort or goodness from him, will expose and disgrace him in front of all of the witnesses on the day that the excuses of the oppressors will not benefit them, they will have the curse and they will have the evil abode.

    al-Laalikaa'ee (1/206-207)
    Why are you even quoting this? No one is denying that the Qur'an is the uncreated speech of Allah. I have stated multiple times before that to affirm Khalq al-Qur'an (the Jahmi doctrine of createdness of the Qur'an) is Kufr.

    To believe that the Qur'an is the speech of the creation and not Allah Azza Wa Jal's speech is also Kufr.

    (Also you should be careful with this statement you've quoted as some idiot could use it to make takfir of the Salaf and Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud Radiyallahu Anhu and the people of Kufa and the early Ahnaf who based Masa'il of fiqh on the Qira'ah of Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud Radiyallahu Anhu. The same idiot would make takfir of all the Sahabah who did not recite the recitation of the Qur'aysh.)

    The Qur'an is Allah's actual speech, the Ash'ari, Maturidi and Athari accept this.

    The dispute is over the letters and words being created or uncreated. The Ash'ari/Maturidi obviously do not deny that the Qur'an is uncreated, they affirm that. They are talking about its Lafz being created. Do you say that the Masahif are uncreated? Do you say your recitation of the Qur'an is uncreated? Obviously not. (The argument could be made that whoever believes the physical mushaf is uncreated is himself a Kafir).

    If you ask an Ash'ari or Maturidi, is an Ayah of the Qur'an created, they will respond with the following:

    "The meaning of the Ayah is of the Qur'an - it is the uncreated speech of Allah. Al-Qur'an Kalamullah Ghayr Makhluq. However as for the Ayah itself, an Ayah as we read in the Mushaf is a collection of words following each other in order, and each word is like that a collection of letters following each other in order. We say that such things are created, just like the Mushaf and the reciter with their actions of reciting, but not the Qur'an.

    Not the divine speech.

    It is Kufr to believe the Qur'an, the divine speech, is created."
    I do not even hold this view (of the Ash'ari and Maturidi regarding letters and words) and yet I can understand and respect it, why is it so difficult for you?
    Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 3 weeks ago.

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  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Bismillah ar-Rahman ar-Rahim,

    I note that there is even one particularly great scholar who I respect tremendously who made Tawil of the Hadith in that manner - but unlike you I'm not afraid to be consistent and say they are wrong. That same scholar was very wrong in another such issue where he criticised a particular Qira'ah of the Qur'an1 - the same Qira'ah that Imam al-Azam praised - we do not judge him for such statements. Imam al-Azam understood this Hadith as he understood intimately the excellence of the Qira'ah of Hamza az-Zayyat. On the other hand, this scholar made tawil of this Hadith under duress when wanting to simply prove wrong the Jahmiyyah/Mu'tazilah who would use such things prove their evil doctrine of disbelief (Khalq al-Qur'an). So he made a Tawil which goes against the clear purport of the Hadith. (Moreover that scholar would be strongly against the Ash'ari-Maturidi view like the early Hanabilah who chastised Imam al-Bukhari were)2.

    There is a similarity with what he did and what even unfortunately scholars today do when refuting an atheist contention against the Qur'an. But making an incorrect interpretation or bending the Arabic language is never the correct way. What they hope to achieve is good but they picked wrong path to that. Rather accept it as it is, and realise your understanding and the understanding of your opponent is wrong. There is nuiance.

    Note: Despite this, I agree with that scholar's view on the letters and words, and not the view of Imam al-Azam, and the Ash'ari-Maturidi.

    Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:

    "Allah has not created in the heavens nor in the earth what is more magnificent than Ayat Al-Kursi."

    Sufyan said: "Because Ayat Al-Kursi is the Speech of Allah, and Allah's Speech is greater than Allah's creation of the heavens and the earth."

    -Jami'at Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 42, Hadith 2884; Your scholar Zubair Ali Zai who authenticates for Darussalam rated it Sahih. Al-Albani also rated it Sahih.
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    I admit you surprised me. I didn't expect you to go with 7. It is not in your nature. I am sure you will abandon your silence sooner or later though.
    Originally posted by maturidee View Post

    'Abdullaah bin Masud's view is not the Ashaari/Maturidi view in any way. It simply proves that nothing is magnificent to Allaah's uncreated speech (of Ayaat al Kursi in its actual wording), like nothing is magnificent to Allaah himself.

    Maa khalaq does not mean that Ayaat al Kursi (in wording) is also a creation.
    So you've migrated from 7 to 3.

    It is interesting, you have not actually made any hermeutical arguments, you've just simply rejected the clear purport of the Hadith. And unlike those before you, you have no good reason to do this.

    The report has Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud Radiyallahu Anhu saying that Allah has not created in the heavens and the earth that which is greater than ayat al-kursi - the purport is clear. That the Jahmiyyah would think to use this as evidence is again evidence against you - as if your Tawil was very clearly correct - then why would the Jahmiyyah bring it in the first place?

    Also, if you try and interpret it otherwise, you break Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud Radiyallahu Anhu's point and ignore the nature of the Arabic language as no verb is needed in Arabic for the nominal (which is what you want him to say).

    He is stating that nothing has been created greater than it, the Fi'l is خَلَقَ . If that was not used like that as a verb in the sentence, then the sentence would be nominal and you could have your point. But the very existance of it as the verb of the sentence invalidates your point. Why would he state that verb if he could make his point (as you wish for it to be) without it? You want him to say "Ayatul-Kursi is greater than the creation"3 or "The creation of the heavens and the Earth is not greater than Ayatul-Kursi"4 - or even just "That which is from the heavens and the Earth is not greater than Ayatul-Kursi"

    All of those sentences are nominal sentences in Arabic. They don't require a verb.

    But he has used a verb.Why did he use the verb خَلَقَ?

    Or are you alleging a Sahabi Radiyallahu Anhu was being deliberately misleading? Or are you saying a Sahabi was unclear when he could have been clear? Your Tawil of this Hadith is quite rich when coming from your sect who tries to argue the Asha'irah engage in such interpretations.

    So your point is invalid. I wonder if you will keep to 3 or migrate to another one.

    The Jahmiyyah falsely used this Hadith to support their view, but in reality it supports the nuianced view of the Ash'ari and Maturidi, and Imam Ibn Kullab and Imam al-Azam.
    1. To do this today after the Ummah has agreed upon those Qira'at is a major innovation if not disbelief - but such a thing does not apply to that scholar who preceded that consensus and was perhaps not as aware of the nature of the Qira'at as earlier scholars. From that it makes even more sense that he misinterprets a Hadith of one who understands the Ahruf well - Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud Radiyallahu Anhu. That said, his misinterpretation served a good purpose.
    2. Have you wondered why Imam at-Tirmidhi, Imam al-Bukhari's intimate student, is the one after the Mihna who quotes this controversial Hadith from Imam Sufyan bin Uyaynah, who passed away before the Mihna, in his Sunnan?
    3. And if he was comparing the creation to the uncreated then the Ism "خَلْق"could be used -and of course no such Fi'l "خَلَقَ" would be needed - the sentence would be nominal.
    4. But do we read, "...خلق السماوات والأرض ليس أَعظم"? No.





    Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 3 weeks ago.

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  • maturidee
    replied
    Ibn Battah (d. 387H) on the Jahmite Origins of the Kullaabi Ash'ari Doctrine That This Qur'aan That is With Us, Present on This Earth, In Letter and Word, Recited, Memorized, Heard and Written, is Created.

    Ibn Battah (d. 387H) said regarding the emergence of what became the view of the
    Kullaabiyyah and Ash'ariyyah from its Jahmee roots, in his "Ibaanat ul-Kubraa" in the book "ar-Radd 'alal-Jahmiyyah" (1/317-318):

    Chapter: Mention of the Lafdhiyyah and Warning From their Opinion and Their Sayings

    "Know, may Allaah have mercy upon you that a faction amongst the Jahmiyyah, out of the conniving of their hearts, and the vileness of their opinions and the repugnance of their desires believed that the Qur'aan is created. And they alluded to that with an innovation they invented out of deception and misleading of the common folk, [all] in order to conceal their kufr, seeking to obscure their deviation from the one whose knowledge was little and whose disposition was weak. So they said:

    The Qur'aan that Allaah spoke with and said, that is the speech of Allaah, not created, and as for that which we recite and read with our tongues and which we write in our copies [of the Qur'aan] is not the Qur'aan which is the Kalaam of Allaah. This is only a hikaayah (quotation, narrative) of that. So what we read is a hikaayah (quotation, narrative) of that Qur'aan with our own words (alfaadh), and our verbal expression (with our words) is created.

    So they became subtle in their kufr and they used deceitful means in order to enter kufr upon the common folk with the most obscure way, and the most minute [in detail] of madhhab, and the most hidden aspect.

    But that was not hidden, by the praise of Allaah, and His favour, and the goodness of his tawfeeq (granting of success) upon the great Scholars, the intelligent critics, until they [the Scholars] rejected as false what they [the Jahmites] fabricated and they unveiled the cover from the repugnance of what they concealed.

    So their kufr and deviance became apparent to both the distinguished and the common folk. And the one who who was wise to that and knew where the repugnance lay in [the saying of the Jahmites] was the Shaykh, the Saalih (righteous), and the Imaam, the Scholar, the intelligent one, Abu Abdullaah Ahmad bin Muhammad bin Hanbal - may Allaah have mercy upon him. And the clarification of their kufr was manifest and clear in the Book of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, and the Sunnah of His Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam)."

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  • maturidee
    replied
    Ibn Jareer at-Tabari (d. 310H) Sends the Jahmite Ash'aris Fleeing From Their Secret Hideouts: There is Only One Qur'aan, Uncreated and Whoever Claims Otherwise Is a Cursed, Forsaken Kaafir.


    The Creed of Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Jareer at-Tabari


    Ubaydullaah bin Muhammad bin Ahmad informed us - reading to him - he said: Al-Qaadee Abu Bakr Ahmad bin Kaamil informed us, saying: Abu Ja'far Muhammad bin Jareer said:

    The first of that which we begin with regarding that is the Speech of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic and His Revelation, since they are from the meanings of His Tawheed.

    So what is correct of the speech regarding that, in our view, is that it is the Speech of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, it is not created in whichever manner it may be written or when it is recited, in whatever place it may be recited, whether it is found in the heaven or upon the earth, however it may be preserved - whether written in the Lawh il-Mahfoodh (the Preserved Tablet) or in the copies of the children of the Qur'aanic schools, or inscribed on a stone and written on paper or leaf, whether memorized in the heart, or spoken by the tongue.

    Whoever says other than this, or claims there is a Qur'aan in the earth or in the heaven other than the Qur'aan that which we recite with our tongues, and which we write in the masaahif (copies of the Qur'aan), or who believes this in his heart or who conceals such a belief in his heart, or who professes it with his tongue, then he is a kaafir whose blood and wealth is lawful and who is free from Allaah and Allaah is free from him - due to the saying of Allaah, lofty be His praise:

    Nay! This is a Glorious Qur'an (Inscribed) in Al-Lawh Al-Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)! (Al-Buruj 85:21-22)


    And He said, and His saying is the truth:

    And if anyone of the Mushrikun (polytheists, idolaters, pagans, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) seeks your protection then grant him protection, so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an).. (At-Tawbah 9:6)


    So He informed us, lofty be His praise that it is in the Preserved Tablet, written, and that it is heard from the tongue of the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) and it is a single Qur'aan, heard from Muhammad and written in the Preserved Tablet, and likewise, memorized in the hearts, and recited upon the tongues of the shuyookh (old) and the children (young).

    So whoever reports or quotes from us, or fabricates a saying against us, or claims against us that we say anything other than that, then upon him is the curse of Allaah and His Anger, and the curse of those who curse, [and the curse of] the Angels, and mankind, altogether. Allaah will not accept any effort or goodness from him, will expose and disgrace him in front of all of the witnesses on the day that the excuses of the oppressors will not benefit them, they will have the curse and they will have the evil abode.

    al-Laalikaa'ee (1/206-207)

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  • maturidee
    replied
    Ahmad bin Sinan al-Waasitee (d. 258H): Shaykh of al-Bukhaaree and Muslim Sends Jahmite Ash'aris Fleeing From Their Secret Hideouts: 'Whoever Says the Qur'aan is Two Things Or a Hikaayah is, by Allaah, a Zindeeq, Kaafir'


    In "Iktisaas ul-Quran bi Awdihi Ilaa ar-Raheem ar-Rahmaan" of Diyaa ud-Deen al-Maqdisi (d. 634H) - a book bringing together the ahaadeeth and narrations pertaining to the
    Qur'aan being erased from this Earth and returning to Allaah, he brings - with an authentic (saheeh) chain of narration - the statement of Ahmad bin Sinaan al-Waasitee (d. 258H):


    "Whoever claims that the Qur'aan is two things, or that the Qur'aan is a hikaayah (quotation), then he is, by Allaah, besides whom there is none worthy of worship, a zindeeq (heretic), kaafir (disbeliever) in Allaah. This Qur'aan is the [very] Qur'aan that Allaah revealed upon the tongue of Jibreel, upon Muhammad (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam). It it is not changed or altered. "Falsehood cannot reach it from in front nor from behind, it is a revelation (tanzeel) [sent down] from the all-Wise, all-Praiseworthy" [41:42], as Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic said: "Say: If [the whole of ] mankind and the jinn gathered together to bring a like of this Qur'aan, they would not be able to bring a like of it, even if they were helpers to one another." (al-Israa 17:88). And if a man swore an oath that he will not speak today, then he recited the Qur'aan, or prayed, reciting the Qur'aan (therein), or made salutation in the prayer, he would not have broken his oath. Nothing is to be analogised with the Speech of Allaah. The Qur'aan is the Speech of Allaah, (منه بدأ وإليه يعود) it commenced with Him (i.e. He spoke it), and to Him will it return. Nothing from Allaah is created, neither and nor are His Attributes, nor His Names, nor His Knowledge."

    (Ahmad bin Sinaan al-Waasitee (d. 258H) was one of the great Scholars of the Salaf, he was the Shaykh of al-Bukhaaree and Muslim, who both took hadeeth from him, as did Abu Daawood and an-Nasaa'ee and Ibn Khuzaimah (d. 311H) and others. And from those whom he reached and heard from amongst the great Imaams were Abdur-Rahmaan bin Mahdee, Wakee' bin al-Jarraah, Yahyaa al-Qattaan, Yazeed bin Haaroon.)
    Last edited by maturidee; 3 weeks ago.

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  • maturidee
    replied
    None of the Salaf ever said that the Qur'aan in word and letter we have is created. Not a single athaar is narrated from a sahaabi or tabi, and whatever is in the Fiqh al Akbar is not authentic from Abu Hanifa, rather it is a fabrication. What is authentic from Abu Hanifa is what Tahaawi relates:

    At-Tahaawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said in his famous book al-‘Aqidah:

    The Qur’aan is the word of Allaah, which originated from Him – without discussing how it was spoken. He sent it down to His Messenger by means of revelation (wahy). The believers bear witness to its revelation. They are certain that it is the actual words of Allaah. It is not created like the words of human beings. Whoever hears it and thinks that it is the words of human beings is a disbeliever; Allaah has condemned him, criticised him and warned him of hellfire as He, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “I will cast him into Hell-fire” [al-Muddaththir 74:26]. Because Allaah has given the warning of hellfire to those who say “ ‘This is nothing but the word of a human being’” [al-Muddaththir 74:25], we know with certainty that it is the words of the Creator of human beings, and is not like the words of human beings."

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  • maturidee
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post



    I admit you surprised me. I didn't expect you to go with 7. It is not in your nature. I am sure you will abandon your silence sooner or later though.
    'Abdullaah bin Masud's view is not the Ashaari/Maturidi view in any way. It simply proves that nothing is magnificent to Allaah's uncreated speech (of Ayaat al Kursi in its actual wording), like nothing created in heaven or earth is magnificent to Allaah himself.

    The hadith of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) who said:

    “The superiority of the words of Allaah over all other words is like the superiority of Allaah over all of His creation.

    A hasan hadith, narrated by ‘Uthmaan ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (no. 287, 340); al-Laalkaa’i (no. 557)

    Maa khalaq does not mean that Ayaat al Kursi (in wording) is also a creation.
    Last edited by maturidee; 3 weeks ago.

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  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
    I will lay out your optionsmaturidee
    1. Reject the Hadith. (This is the easiest way out, but it will make it clear to even the clueless that you and your sect are innovators. Those of your sect will also reject you for rejecting an authentic Hadith)
    2. Make some kind of advanced argument for Tarjih', rejecting the particular wording you find problematic. (You do not have the knowledge to do this, and I'm pretty sure it is impossible anyway. Again it will reveal your true colours. The advanced "scholars" of your sect would probably attempt this.)
    3. Interpret and distort the Hadith. (Not so easy, but again your identity will be made clear through this. Knowing you this is the path you'd prefer.)
    4. Accept the Hadith and attribute the Jahmi/Mu'tazili view to a Sahabi, saying that Sahabi is an innovator/disbeliever. (In which case it is clear to everyone you're not a Sunni Muslim. Some might even question if you a Muslim at all if you do this.)
    5. Accept the Hadith and attribute the Jahmi/Mu'tazili view to a Sahabi, saying some of the Sahabah held such views and so they are valid (If you wanted to do this, you've already shot yourself in the foot by refuting it. Again it would make it clear how much of a innovator you are, but also show how inconsistent you are. I have mentioned in the past a particular personality who has been more academically honest than others of his sect and gone down this path.)
    6. Accept the Hadith and admit it is referring to the Ash'ari/Maturidi view, but say that this view is deviation and that this Sahabi is a deviant (Again it is clear you are not a Sunni Muslim, and rather it will show you testifying to the orthodoxy of two noble groups from Ahlus Sunnah)
    7. Ignore the Hadith (Maybe quote other Hadith, or start making other arguments and points. This will show you've been cornered. You have picked this in the past but I doubt you will pick it now. This is arguably the safest thing you could do - but again it will be very telling.)
    Now my brother, whilst Jahannam has 7 doors, Jannah has 8 doors, and we observe an 8th option:

    Accept the Hadith, admit it is referring to the Ash'ari/Maturidi view, and accept that view as a valid Sunni view as it was the view of the Sahabi who knew the Ahruf and Qur'an well.
    Originally posted by maturidee View Post

    There is even a hadith with the same meaning attributed to the Prophet sallAllaahu alayhi was sallam:

    The hadith of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) who said:

    “The superiority of the words of Allaah over all other words is like the superiority of Allaah over all of His creation.”

    A hasan hadith, narrated by ‘Uthmaan ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (no. 287, 340); al-Laalkaa’i (no. 557)

    This hadith confirms the belief of the salaf, that the Qur’aan is the word of Allaah and is not created. It does so in two respects:

    (i) It differentiates between the words of Allaah and other words. Words are either the speech of Allah, which is one of His attributes, or they are created words, which are part of the creation of Allah. Whatever is a divine attribute is ascribed to Allaah, whereas the rest are mentioned in general terms, so as to include all words other than those attributed to Allaah. If all words were created, there would be no need for this differentiation.

    (ii) The differentiation between the words of Allaah and the words of others is like the differentiation between the essence of Allaah and the essence of others. Allaah’s words and the nature thereof are connected to His essence and the nature thereof, just as the words of created beings and the nature thereof are appropriate to and connected to the essence of created beings and the nature thereof.

    This argument was presented by Imam ‘Uthmaan ibn Sa‘eed ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (p. 162-163). After quoting the hadiths on this topic, he said:

    "These hadiths indicate that the Qur’aan is not created, because you would not see such a great difference when comparing between two created beings as you will see when comparing between Allaah and His creation, because the difference between the two created beings is measurable, whereas the superiority of Allaah over His creation is unmeasurable and no one can grasp it. The same applies to the superiority of His words over the words of created beings. If the words of Allah were created, there would not be such a great difference between them and the words of others, which is like the superiority of Allaah over His creation. There is nothing like unto Him, so there are no words like His words, and no one could ever produce anything like them."
    I admit you surprised me. I didn't expect you to go with 7. It is not in your nature. I am sure you will abandon your silence sooner or later though.

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  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ مِنْ سَمَاءٍ وَلاَ أَرْضٍ أَعْظَمَ مِنْ آيَةِ الْكُرْسِيِّ

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  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by maturidee View Post

    There is even a hadith with the same meaning attributed to the Prophet sallAllaahu alayhi was sallam:

    The hadith of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) who said:

    “The superiority of the words of Allaah over all other words is like the superiority of Allaah over all of His creation.”

    A hasan hadith, narrated by ‘Uthmaan ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (no. 287, 340); al-Laalkaa’i (no. 557)

    This hadith confirms the belief of the salaf, that the Qur’aan is the word of Allaah and is not created. It does so in two respects:

    (i) It differentiates between the words of Allaah and other words. Words are either the speech of Allah, which is one of His attributes, or they are created words, which are part of the creation of Allah. Whatever is a divine attribute is ascribed to Allaah, whereas the rest are mentioned in general terms, so as to include all words other than those attributed to Allaah. If all words were created, there would be no need for this differentiation.

    (ii) The differentiation between the words of Allaah and the words of others is like the differentiation between the essence of Allaah and the essence of others. Allaah’s words and the nature thereof are connected to His essence and the nature thereof, just as the words of created beings and the nature thereof are appropriate to and connected to the essence of created beings and the nature thereof.

    This argument was presented by Imam ‘Uthmaan ibn Sa‘eed ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (p. 162-163). After quoting the hadiths on this topic, he said:

    "These hadiths indicate that the Qur’aan is not created, because you would not see such a great difference when comparing between two created beings as you will see when comparing between Allaah and His creation, because the difference between the two created beings is measurable, whereas the superiority of Allaah over His creation is unmeasurable and no one can grasp it. The same applies to the superiority of His words over the words of created beings. If the words of Allah were created, there would not be such a great difference between them and the words of others, which is like the superiority of Allaah over His creation. There is nothing like unto Him, so there are no words like His words, and no one could ever produce anything like them."
    Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:

    "Allah has not created in the heavens nor in the earth what is more magnificent than Ayat Al-Kursi."

    Sufyan said: "Because Ayat Al-Kursi is the Speech of Allah, and Allah's Speech is greater than Allah's creation of the heavens and the earth."

    -Jami'at Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 42, Hadith 2884; Your scholar Zubair Ali Zai who authenticates for Darussalam rated it Sahih. Al-Albani also rated it Sahih.
    مَا خَلَقَ اللَّهُ

    You cannot exclude the interpretation of a Sahabi from Sunni Islam

    Let us remind ourselves what Ahlus Sunnah is - Ahlus Sunnah is the Madhab of the Prophet Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam and the Sahabah. Now if the Sahabah were to hold what is later the Ash'ari/Maturidi view on Allah's speech/the Qur'an (that it is his uncreated, eternal and pre-eternal attribute but versing, letters following each other etc. are all created aspects), then would that mean that if the Ash'ari hold that view, they are by definition not deviants? Rather they are adopting a view some Sahabah held?

    By the way, Sufyan bin Uyaynah who relates the Hadith used to relate Hadith to Imam Abu Hanifah. Imam Abu Hanifah's Maddhab takes heavily from Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud who is the Sahabi quoted.

    Is it possible that Imam Abu Hanifah adopted this view which is why it is found in works ascribed to him (like Fiqh al-Akbar)? And would that explain why some of the companions of Imam Abu Hanifah became Mu'tazila - they misinterpreted Imam Abu Hanifah's nuianced position on Kalamullah/the Qur'an (that it is uncreated speech and yet for humans to understand it there are limited verses, letters etc, that are created?). Is this where Ibn Kullab's views originate from?

    So in irony are you actually attacking a position explicitly held by a Sahabi?

    Allahu Alam, just food for thought.

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  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by maturidee View Post

    There is even a hadith with the same meaning attributed to the Prophet sallAllaahu alayhi was sallam:

    The hadith of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) who said:

    “The superiority of the words of Allaah over all other words is like the superiority of Allaah over all of His creation.”

    A hasan hadith, narrated by ‘Uthmaan ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (no. 287, 340); al-Laalkaa’i (no. 557)

    This hadith confirms the belief of the salaf, that the Qur’aan is the word of Allaah and is not created. It does so in two respects:

    (i) It differentiates between the words of Allaah and other words. Words are either the speech of Allah, which is one of His attributes, or they are created words, which are part of the creation of Allah. Whatever is a divine attribute is ascribed to Allaah, whereas the rest are mentioned in general terms, so as to include all words other than those attributed to Allaah. If all words were created, there would be no need for this differentiation.

    (ii) The differentiation between the words of Allaah and the words of others is like the differentiation between the essence of Allaah and the essence of others. Allaah’s words and the nature thereof are connected to His essence and the nature thereof, just as the words of created beings and the nature thereof are appropriate to and connected to the essence of created beings and the nature thereof.

    This argument was presented by Imam ‘Uthmaan ibn Sa‘eed ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (p. 162-163). After quoting the hadiths on this topic, he said:

    "These hadiths indicate that the Qur’aan is not created, because you would not see such a great difference when comparing between two created beings as you will see when comparing between Allaah and His creation, because the difference between the two created beings is measurable, whereas the superiority of Allaah over His creation is unmeasurable and no one can grasp it. The same applies to the superiority of His words over the words of created beings. If the words of Allah were created, there would not be such a great difference between them and the words of others, which is like the superiority of Allaah over His creation. There is nothing like unto Him, so there are no words like His words, and no one could ever produce anything like them."
    You picked 7.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Ash'ari/Maturidi View

    The Qur'an is uncreated.

    Our recitation of it is created. The Masahif are created. The letters and words are created, the following each other of these are created. In other words, Arabic Rusum of the Qur'an is created. The wording/letter variations in the Ahruf/Qira'at are created.

    But the meanings that they convey are of the divine speech - infinite, beginningless, endless and eternal - which is uncreated.

    The Qur'an is speech of the divine which is uncreated meaning. His speech is uncreated.

    That infinite meaning can then be conveyed to the limited human mind in any language and through the words that Allah excellently chooses convey that. Allah Azza Wa Jal does not speak Arabic, Hebrew or any other language. And his speech is always true. When the human recites the Qur'an in the Arabic according to the Qira'at, he has limited comprehension and grasping of that unlimited speech of the divine. In the same way that we will see Him without our vision grasping/wholly comprehending Him, we hear His speech without grasping/fully comprehending the unlimitedness of it. Man understands thereby what Allah has communicated to him and intended for him to understand.

    Different words from the human languages can be used to convey to the human mind the message of His speech. Even from the same language/language group this is the case. Allah has revealed and quoted in clear Arabic what He has said in previously revealed scripture - that scripture was revealed in a different language and Allah only speaks the exact truth. Allah gave man the Arabic Qur'an and he is capable of all things. He gave them 7 Ahruf, he could have given any amount he so willed.

    If you understand the above, you understand what the Sahabi Radiyallahu Anhu was referring to.

    Note: The createdness of letters and words is not my own view by the way. But I will always Insha'Allah defend such a valid Sunni view.

    Leave a comment:


  • maturidee
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
    I will lay out your optionsmaturidee
    1. Reject the Hadith. (This is the easiest way out, but it will make it clear to even the clueless that you and your sect are innovators. Those of your sect will also reject you for rejecting an authentic Hadith)
    2. Make some kind of advanced argument for Tarjih', rejecting the particular wording you find problematic. (You do not have the knowledge to do this, and I'm pretty sure it is impossible anyway. Again it will reveal your true colours. The advanced "scholars" of your sect would probably attempt this.)
    3. Interpret and distort the Hadith. (Not so easy, but again your identity will be made clear through this. Knowing you this is the path you'd prefer.)
    4. Accept the Hadith and attribute the Jahmi/Mu'tazili view to a Sahabi, saying that Sahabi is an innovator/disbeliever. (In which case it is clear to everyone you're not a Sunni Muslim. Some might even question if you a Muslim at all if you do this.)
    5. Accept the Hadith and attribute the Jahmi/Mu'tazili view to a Sahabi, saying some of the Sahabah held such views and so they are valid (If you wanted to do this, you've already shot yourself in the foot by refuting it. Again it would make it clear how much of a innovator you are, but also show how inconsistent you are. I have mentioned in the past a particular personality who has been more academically honest than others of his sect and gone down this path.)
    6. Accept the Hadith and admit it is referring to the Ash'ari/Maturidi view, but say that this view is deviation and that this Sahabi is a deviant (Again it is clear you are not a Sunni Muslim, and rather it will show you testifying to the orthodoxy of two noble groups from Ahlus Sunnah)
    7. Ignore the Hadith (Maybe quote other Hadith, or start making other arguments and points. This will show you've been cornered. You have picked this in the past but I doubt you will pick it now. This is arguably the safest thing you could do - but again it will be very telling.)
    Now my brother, whilst Jahannam has 7 doors, Jannah has 8 doors, and we observe an 8th option:

    Accept the Hadith, admit it is referring to the Ash'ari/Maturidi view, and accept that view as a valid Sunni view as it was the view of the Sahabi who knew the Ahruf and Qur'an well.
    There is even a hadith with the same meaning attributed to the Prophet sallAllaahu alayhi was sallam:

    The hadith of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) who said:

    “The superiority of the words of Allaah over all other words is like the superiority of Allaah over all of His creation.”

    A hasan hadith, narrated by ‘Uthmaan ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (no. 287, 340); al-Laalkaa’i (no. 557)

    This hadith confirms the belief of the salaf, that the Qur’aan is the word of Allaah and is not created. It does so in two respects:

    (i) It differentiates between the words of Allaah and other words. Words are either the speech of Allah, which is one of His attributes, or they are created words, which are part of the creation of Allah. Whatever is a divine attribute is ascribed to Allaah, whereas the rest are mentioned in general terms, so as to include all words other than those attributed to Allaah. If all words were created, there would be no need for this differentiation.

    (ii) The differentiation between the words of Allaah and the words of others is like the differentiation between the essence of Allaah and the essence of others. Allaah’s words and the nature thereof are connected to His essence and the nature thereof, just as the words of created beings and the nature thereof are appropriate to and connected to the essence of created beings and the nature thereof.

    This argument was presented by Imam ‘Uthmaan ibn Sa‘eed ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (p. 162-163). After quoting the hadiths on this topic, he said:

    "These hadiths indicate that the Qur’aan is not created, because you would not see such a great difference when comparing between two created beings as you will see when comparing between Allaah and His creation, because the difference between the two created beings is measurable, whereas the superiority of Allaah over His creation is unmeasurable and no one can grasp it. The same applies to the superiority of His words over the words of created beings. If the words of Allah were created, there would not be such a great difference between them and the words of others, which is like the superiority of Allaah over His creation. There is nothing like unto Him, so there are no words like His words, and no one could ever produce anything like them."
    Last edited by maturidee; 3 weeks ago.

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