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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • Originally posted by salafi7 View Post

    oh that expains I thought you were a guy sorry well sister i think you may be upon biddah you should leave sufism and madhabs and be salafi thats the only correct way
    Here's another crazy post. He's saying if you ain't following something called salafi, ie. if you follow a madhhab, then you are on bid'ah. LOL.

    When these guys understand law of transitivity regarding taqleed and further, then we'll talk. Until then, adios amigos.

    And PS with great pleasure I must say that ie. Abu Hanifa was of the true salaf while ie. Ibn Taymiyyah, whom they quote abundantly, was not. Just a tiny example.
    Last edited by Mavikick; 22-04-20, 02:19 AM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Mavikick View Post

      Allah SWT revealed the Qur'an so even the kids could understand what is clear, the basics, ie. Allah is One. And only One. Nothing is like unto Him. There are angels. There are messengers. There will be judgment day. There is paradise and there is hell. People should believe in Allah, do good, have patience, ask Allah for forgiveness, etc. If these and similar are not clear to you, then I rest my case. For clear text such as this one needs not an explanation.
      And it is clear that Allah SWT is saying that he has โ€œyadโ€ . You are denying something that Allah SWT has said about himself in a very clear way. The problem is that you see โ€œYadโ€ as the one you have( arm , palm , fingers) thatโ€™s why you canโ€™t comprehend it. We donโ€™t say that Allah has the same hand that we have. We donโ€™t know what it looks like but we donโ€™t deny something that he has said about himself. You are the one who is making the clear things unclear.

      Comment


      • Very interesting thread. I don't know what that text means, full stop. Despite not knowing what the text means, I have deduced that this discussion is a waste of time, but also, I will continue posting about it. I won't waste my precious time, but will still engage. By the way, the text is clear and doesn't need an explanation.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Farah. A View Post

          And it is clear that Allah SWT is saying that he has โ€œyadโ€ . You are denying something that Allah SWT has said about himself in a very clear way. The problem is that you see โ€œYadโ€ as the one you have( arm , palm , fingers) thatโ€™s why you canโ€™t comprehend it. We donโ€™t say that Allah has the same hand that we have. We donโ€™t know what it looks like but we donโ€™t deny something that he has said about himself. You are the one who is making the clear things unclear.
          Yad is mentioned in the Qur`an al-karim regarding Allah ta'ala with a context!
          No one denies the description, but what about the context? What about its usage in the language of the Arabs, which none of you even cares about?
          What about these Ayat being from the Mutashabihat, which need to be understood in the context of the Muhkamat?

          Then: When you say "we donโ€™t know what it looks like", do you know that this implies that for you Yad regarding Allah ta'ala is still something corporeal (i.e. has dimensions!)?!

          Anyways, letโ€˜s please stick to the topic and that is a comparison between the mainstream Hanbali creed and the modern day "Salafi" creed.
          Please either refer to classical Hanbali scholars or do not post, because the opinion of laymen is not relevant here.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

            Yad is mentioned in the Qur`an al-karim regarding Allah ta'ala with a context!
            No one denies the description, but what about the context? What about its usage in the language of the Arabs, which none of you even cares about?
            What about these Ayat being from the Mutashabihat, which need to be understood in the context of the Muhkamat?

            Then: When you say "we donโ€™t know what it looks like", do you know that this implies that for you Yad regarding Allah ta'ala is still something corporeal (i.e. has dimensions!)?!

            Anyways, letโ€˜s please stick to the topic and that is a comparison between the mainstream Hanbali creed and the modern day "Salafi" creed.
            Please either refer to classical Hanbali scholars or do not post, because the opinion of laymen is not relevant here.
            This is not my personal opinion. I donโ€™t say something that I havenโ€™t read or taught.

            ูˆูŽู…ูู†ูŽ ุงู„ุฅูŠู…ูŽุงู†ู ุจูุงู„ู„ู‡ูโ€ ุงู„ุฅููŠู…ูŽุงู†ู ุจูู…ูŽุง ูˆูŽุตูŽููŽ ุจูู‡ู ู†ูŽูู’ุณูŽู‡ู ูููŠ ูƒูุชูุงุจูู‡ู ุงู„ู’ุนูŽุฒููŠุฒู ูˆูŽุจูู…ูŽุง ูˆูŽุตูŽููŽู‡ู ุจูู‡ู ุฑูŽุณููˆู„ูู‡ู ู…ูุญูŽู…ูŽู‘ุฏูŒ ุตู„ู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูˆุณู„ู… ู…ูู†ู’ ุบูŽูŠู’ุฑู ุชูŽุญู’ุฑููŠูู ูˆูŽู„ุงูŽ ุชูŽุนู’ุทููŠู„ู ูˆูŽู…ูู†ู’ ุบูŽูŠู’ุฑู ุชูŽูƒู’ูŠููŠูู ูˆูŽู„ุงูŽ ุชูŽู…ู’ุซููŠู„ูโ€โ€

            Part of faith in Allah is to have faith in the way He described Himself in His honorable book and in the way described by His messenger Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, without distortion and negation, and without asking โ€˜howโ€™ or likening Him to something else.

            ุจูŽู„ู’ ูŠูุคู’ู…ูู†ููˆู†ูŽ ุจูุฃูŽู†ูŽู‘ ุงู„ู„ู‡ูŽ โ€ู„ูŽูŠู’ุณูŽ ูƒูŽู…ูุซู’ู„ูู‡ู ุดูŽูŠู’ุกูŒ ูˆูŽู‡ููˆูŽ ุงู„ุณูŽู‘ู…ููŠุนู ุงู„ุจูŽุตููŠุฑูโ€ โ€โ€

            Rather, they believe that for Allah โ€˜there is nothing like Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.โ€™ (42:11)

            ููŽู„ุงูŽ ูŠูŽู†ู’ูููˆู†ูŽ ุนูŽู†ู’ู‡ู ู…ูŽุง ูˆูŽุตูŽููŽ ุจูู‡ู ู†ูŽูู’ุณูŽู‡ู ูˆูŽู„ุงูŽ ูŠูุญูŽุฑูู‘ูููˆู†ูŽ ุงู„ู’ูƒูŽู„ูู…ูŽ ุนูŽู† ู…ูŽู‘ูˆูŽุงุถูุนูู‡ู ูˆูŽู„ุงูŽ ูŠูู„ู’ุญูุฏููˆู†ูŽ ูููŠ ุฃูŽุณู’ู…ูŽุงุกู ุงู„ู„ู‡ู ูˆุขูŠูŽุงุชูู‡ู ูˆูŽู„ุงูŽ ูŠููƒูŽูŠูู‘ูููˆู†ูŽ ูˆูŽู„ุงูŽ ูŠูู…ูŽุซูู‘ู„ููˆู†ูŽ ุตูููŽุงุชูู‡ู ุจูุตูููŽุงุชู ุฎูŽู„ู’ู‚ูู‡ูโ€โ€

            They do not nullify what He was described with, nor do they distort the words from their proper places. They do not blaspheme against the names of Allah and His verses, nor do they ascribe a modality to Him, nor do they compare His attributes to those of His creation.

            ู„ุฃูŽู†ูŽู‘ู‡ู ุณูุจู’ุญูŽุงู†ูŽู‡ูโ€ ู„ุงูŽ ุณูŽู…ููŠูŽู‘ ู„ูŽู‡ู ูˆูŽู„ุงูŽ ูƒููู’ุกูŽ ู„ูŽู‡ู ูˆูŽู„ุงูŽ ู†ูุฏูŽู‘ ู„ู‡ูโ€โ€

            For He, glory be to Him, has no likeness, no comparison, and no partner.

            from Al Aqeeda al wassityyah by ibn taymmyah.

            you need to read about tahreef ( distortion) and taโ€™teel (negation) and takyeef.

            And here is the proof from the Quran and sunnah as the salaf never said something about Allah without daleel.

            Collection
            Sahih Bukhari
            Dar-us-Salam reference
            Hadith 1410
            In-book reference
            Book 24, Hadith 14
            USC-MSA web (English) reference
            Volume 2, Book 24, Hadith 491
            Narrated Abu Huraira:

            Allah's Messenger (๏ทบ) said, "If one give in charity what equals one date-fruit from the honestly earned money and Allah accepts only the honestly earned money --Allah takes it in His right (hand) and then enlarges its reward for that person (who has given it), as anyone of you brings up his baby horse, so much s that it becomes as big as a mountain
            โ€”โ€”โ€”

            Abdullah b. 'Umar reported Allah's Messenger (๏ทบ) saying:

            Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, would fold the Heavens on the Day of Judgment and then He would place them on His right hand and say: I am the Lord; where are the haughty and where are the proud (today)? He would fold the' earth (placing it) on the left hand and say: I am the Lord; where are the haughty and where are the proud (today)?

            Sahih Muslim 2788

            โ€”โ€”โ€”โ€”

            [ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?"

            ( Sad: 75)

            I can still post more if you want.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Farah. A View Post


              [ Allah ] said, "O Iblees, what prevented you from prostrating to that which I created with My hands? Were you arrogant [then], or were you [already] among the haughty?"

              ( Sad: 75)

              I can still post more if you want.
              And hand here literally means a hand or is it possible it cam mean something else?

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Mavikick View Post

                And hand here literally means a hand or is it possible it cam mean something else?
                Literally means hand.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Farah. A View Post
                  This is not my personal opinion. I donโ€™t say something that I havenโ€™t read or taught.
                  Please recheck what the topic of this thread is. Itโ€˜s a comparison of the mainstream Hanbali creed with that of modern day "Salafis".
                  Iโ€˜m saying that they are in disagreement and have brought evidence for that.
                  Iโ€˜m not interested in what you have been taught or what youโ€™ve read. Just concentrate on the topic.

                  from Al Aqeeda al wassityyah by ibn taymmyah.
                  The Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) was a Hanbali scholar, but he was not a mainstream one.
                  He himself admitted that he disagreed with his [Hanbali] forefathers in the Aslayn (!) (i.e. the foundations of the religion and the foundations of jurisprudence); and major Hanbali scholars like Imam Ibn Rajab (d. 795 AH) said that he had abnormal views.
                  (I can quote both if needed.)

                  The quote that you brought however is in like with the mainstream Hanbali way and not problematic.

                  you need to read about tahreef ( distortion) and taโ€™teel (negation) and takyeef.
                  You are telling me that after Iโ€˜ve quoted one Hanbali scholar after the other that the texts regarding the divine attributes are to be passed on as they came without negation and without attributing modality?!
                  Where have I denied any attribute?
                  Read at least what has been stated before commenting.

                  And here is the proof from the Quran and sunnah as the salaf never said something about Allah without daleel.
                  "Salafis" have literally no connection to the Salaf al-salih!
                  The Salaf al-salih believed in the authentic religious texts and they would not ascribe likeness or similarity.
                  Your Ibn 'Uthaymin however explicitly claimed that that "there is some [sort of] of similarity (!) [between the Creator and the creation]" (see HERE).
                  Is this what the our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - teached? Is this Tawhid? No, by Allah!

                  I can still post more if you want.
                  Whatโ€˜s the point of posting more? I already believe in these texts!

                  Then: What you've posted are not the Ayat and Ahadith themselves, but rather translations of them, which already contains a sort of interpretation or explanation (i.e. that of the translator). Do you even realize that?

                  This for example is an Qur`anic Aya and below it the English translation or say explanation:

                  { ุฅูู†ูŽู‘ ูฑู„ูŽู‘ุฐููŠู†ูŽ ูŠูุจูŽุงูŠูุนููˆู†ูŽูƒูŽ ุฅูู†ูŽู‘ู…ูŽุง ูŠูุจูŽุงูŠูุนููˆู†ูŽ ูฑู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ูŽ ูŠูŽุฏู ูฑู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ู ููŽูˆู’ู‚ูŽ ุฃูŽูŠู’ุฏููŠู‡ูู…ู’ ููŽู…ูŽู† ู†ูŽู‘ูƒูŽุซูŽ ููŽุฅูู†ูŽู‘ู…ูŽุง ูŠูŽู†ูƒูุซู ุนูŽู„ูŽู‰ูฐ ู†ูŽูู’ุณูู‡ู ูˆูŽู…ูŽู†ู’ ุฃูŽูˆู’ููŽู‰ูฐ ุจูู…ูŽุง ุนูŽุงู‡ูŽุฏูŽ ุนูŽู„ูŽูŠู’ู‡ู ูฑู„ู„ูŽู‘ู‡ูŽ ููŽุณูŽูŠูุคู’ุชููŠู‡ู ุฃูŽุฌู’ุฑุงู‹ ุนูŽุธููŠู…ุงู‹ }

                  { Those who swear allegiance to you, swear allegiance to Allah. The hand of Allah is over their hands; so who-soever breaks his oath, he breaks it to his own loss, and whosoever fulfils the covenant which he had made with Allah, then Allah shall soon give him a great reward. }

                  [48:10]

                  Now concentrate on the actual Aya and itโ€™s context and donโ€™t forget to consider the other Ayat who make clear that Allah ta'ala has no likeness or similarity to the creation.

                  Is it possible here to understand Yad as power (Quwwa) here? Yes, it is. This has been mentioned by Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) in his Tafsir regarding the Aya under the second interpretation.
                  Is it possible to understand it as bounty (Ni'ma), support (Nusra) or protection (Hifdh) in this context? Yes! This has been all mentioned by Imam al-Razi (d. 606 AH) in his Tafsir regarding the Aya.

                  Is it possible to say based upon this Aya and other Ayat and Ahadith that Yad is a divine attribute additionally to other attributes, but not to be understood in a corporeal way. This is also possible.

                  The Ash'ari position now is that all of the above are possible options and they relegate the reality of this issue to Allah ta'ala.
                  The Hanbali position is that itโ€˜s a divine attribute and not something corporeal and they also relegate the reality to Allah ta'ala.

                  As for the "Salafis": They disagree with both the Ash'aris and the Hanbalis and believe that a literal hand is intended and that to deny or affirm corporeality is not allowed. Note that a "literal hand" already implies corporeality!
                  Did you now get the difference?
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 22-04-20, 01:03 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                    Literally means hand.
                    Ok how about this, literal or not?

                    โ€œToday We forget you as you have forgotten this day of yoursโ€ (Qurโ€™an 45:34),โ€œToday We forget you as you have forgotten this day of yoursโ€ (Qurโ€™an 45:34),

                    Comment


                    • I also found this, via Ibn 'Abbas, I'd like you answer AA. Is this true or somebody is spreading lies on them? I'd really like to know.

                      โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹

                      โ€œAnd the sky We built with hands; verily We outspread [it]โ€ (Qurโ€™an 51:47),

                      al-Tabari ascribes the figurative explanation (taโ€™wil) of with hands as meaning โ€œwith power (bi quwwa)โ€ through five chains of transmission to Ibn โ€˜Abbas, who died 68 years after the Hijra, Mujahid who died 104 years after the Hijra, Qatada [ibn Daโ€˜ama] who died 118 years after the Hijra, Mansur [ibn Zadhan al-Thaqafi] who died 131 years after the Hijra, and Sufyan al-Thawri who died 161 years after the Hijra (Jamiโ€˜ al-bayan, 27.7โ€“8).
                      Last edited by Mavikick; 22-04-20, 01:45 PM.

                      Comment


                      • Next, everything will perish except the face of Allah. What is meant there? Euzubillah, His hands will also perish or not? Pls explain AA.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mavikick View Post

                          Ok...
                          Do you agree? If not, why?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                            Do you agree? If not, why?
                            I said Ok as in, let's leave it for now. I can't say more coz I don't know where u taking ur din from. Or whom.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Mavikick View Post

                              I said Ok as in, let's leave it for now. I can't say more coz I don't know where u taking ur din from. Or whom.
                              The question was to you. Why do you need to where or who Iโ€™m taking deen from in order to answer the question?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                                The question was to you. Why do you need to where or who Iโ€™m taking deen from in order to answer the question?
                                When u, u who r obviously famous in ignoring questions, answer my questions, then we can continue. But only until the start of Ramadan. In the mean time, u can find yourself here The Delusional Salafi | Mohamed Ghilan https://mohamedghilan.wordpress.com/...sional-salafi/

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