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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post


    They also think that the statement that some Hanabila made and that is that Allah ta'ala "speaks when He wills" means that He speaks and then gets silent (!) and then speaks again and so on
    You are are so low as to not deserve mention let it be among the group of the learned, rather not even among the layman.

    If you think that Allaah is still speaking to Musa and commanding him to remove his shoes!!

    Whatever you do, if you stay in your "outside of place and time" kalaami mumbo jumbo you will end up having repugnant views. And you will not have a foot to stand on.




    Comment


    • Table of contents (until 30-1-2021):


      - Opening post: Some books and treatises that represent mainstream Hanbali creed and the mentioning of those who don't represent them

      - Comparison between the beliefs of Hanbalis with Ash'aris and Maturidis from one side and the "Salafis" from another side

      - From Imam Ahmad to Ibn Qudama to al-Saffarini: Tafwidh is the correct way! (Part 1)
      - From Imam Ahmad to Ibn Qudama to al-Saffarini: Tafwidh is the correct way! (Part 2)
      - From Imam Ahmad to Ibn Qudama to al-Saffarini: Tafwidh is the correct way! (Part 3)

      - Belief of early Hanabila from Tabaqat al-Hanabila (Part 1)
      - Belief of early Hanabila from Tabaqat al-Hanabila (Part 2)
      - Belief of early Hanabila from Tabaqat al-Hanabila (Part 3)
      - Belief of early Hanabila from Tabaqat al-Hanabila (Part 4)
      - Belief of early Hanabila from Tabaqat al-Hanabila (Part 5)

      - Mainstream Hanbalis: Allah is beyond space and time and His existence is non-bodily one
      - Hanbali position (as in al-Mu'tamad): All bodies are emergent and therefore created and the corporealists are disbelievers

      - Imam Ibn Qudama's rejection of Tajsim

      - Hanbali position regarding 'Uluw and Istiwa` as mentioned by Imam Ibn Hamdan (short quote)
      - Hanbali position regarding the divine 'Uluw, Istiwa and Nuzul as mentioned by Imam Ibn Hamdan (long quote)
      - The difference of Hanbalis and Ash'aris on Istiwa` and 'Uluw as mentioned by al-Qadhi Abu Ya'la

      - The reliability and general acceptance of Nihayat al-Mubtadi`in of Imam Ibn Hamdan by the Hanabila
      - Imam Ibn Rajab's praise for Imam Ibn Hamdan

      - 'Allama al-Saffarini: Tafwidh al-Ma'na is the correct way and the Ahl al-Sunna are three groups and Yad is a divine attribute and not a limb
      - 'Allama al-Saffarini: Allah is not composed of parts and the three dimensions do not apply to Him
      - Three reliable books of creed that the 'Allama al-Saffarini teached himself

      - Rejecting or affirming the expression of direction and the verification of this issue as explained by Shaykh al-Gharsi

      - The exact difference of Ash'aris and Hanbalis in Tafwidh
      - Ash'ari and Hanbali agreement on Tafwidh and disagreement on Ta`wil
      - Hanbali explanation of the issue of "letter and sound"

      - Shaykh Muhammad 'Abd al-Wahid on the historical dispute between Ash'aris and Hanbalis
      - Shaykh Muhammad 'Abd al-Wahid: Hanbali position regarding Ash'aris in comparison to their position regarding Najdis
      - Shaykh Muhammad 'Abd al-Wahid: The arrogance and foolishness of the Nabita ("Salafis")!
      - Shaykh Muhammad 'Abd al-Wahid regarding the chaos and confusion that "Salafis" have caused
      - Shaykh Muhammad 'Abd al-Wahid and his defence of al-Qadhi Abu Ya'la
      - Shaykh Muhammad 'Abd al-Wahid: The position of a Madhhab is what their adherents have stated in their books and not what others claim against them

      - Hanbali Madhhab Q & A session by Shaykh Yusuf Sadiq al-Hanbali

      - Shaykh al-'Awni: I wish I would be an Ash'ari like al-Baqillani!
      - Shaykh al-'Awni: Tafwidh is the Madhhab of the Salaf and the difference between Ash'aris and Hanbalis in the foundations of creed are only in wording!

      - The different directions of the Hanabila regarding creed

      - Shaykh Muhammad 'Abd al-Wahid regarding the difference between Hanbalis and the Shaykh Ibn Taymiyya on Tafwidh; Shaykh Yusuf Sadiq regarding Ibn Taymiyya's position in the Hanbali Madhhab



      - How Ibn Taymiyya left the way of his mainstream Hanbali forefathers
      - Ibn Taymiyya's distinction between Sifat Ma'nawiyya and Sifat 'Ayniyya

      - Ibn 'Uthaymin ("Salafi"): There is some degree of similarity between the Creator and the creation vs. the Hanbali response
      - Ibn 'Uthaymin's claim: al-Saffarini is wrong and declaring God to be transcendent from being a body is not allowed
      - Ibn 'Uthaymin: Al-Saffarini is upon polytheism in lordship and divinity; Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab: Al-Saffarini, his teachers and his students did not know Islam!
      - Ibn 'Uthaymin and his broken chain of knowledge
      - Ibn 'Uthyamin turning the 'Ayn of Allah into the tool of seeing
      - Ibn 'Uthaymin: God has ONLY two eyes and IF He would have MORE eyes, then this would be MORE perfect!
      - Putting the puzzles together regarding the Tashbih of Ibn 'Uthaymin

      - "Salafi" Mashayikh admitting that Imam Ibn Qudama was from the people of Tafwidh
      - "Salafi" belief regarding Istiwa` and 'Uluw; Ibn 'Uthaymin's interpretaton of Istiwa` as Istiqrar (settlement)
      - "Salafis" accuse classical Hanbalis of "treason" and "misrepresenting" Imam Ahmad's creed




      Additional posts:

      - Imam al-Tahawi: Islamic understanding of the Tawhid of Allah ta'ala (very recommended)
      - Imam al-Tahawi: Our belief in the divine attributes

      - How to understand the texts regarding the divine attributes and the different Sunni positions as mentioned by Imam al-Nawawi
      - The way of the early Muslims regarding the divine attributes according to Imam al-Khattabi

      - What's the safest view regarding our belief in the Tawhid of Allah ta'ala?

      - Meaning of Jism in the language and in terminology

      - Imam al-Qurtubi's Takfir upon those affirming the literal meaning of the Mutashabihat
      - Regarding those who claim to worship the Creator, but do not know Him in reality
      - The importance of denying corporeality regarding the Creator

      - Note on al-Azhar and the closing down of the schools of the 4 Madhahib on the Arabian peninsula by Najdis and "Salafis"
      - Another defense of al-Azhar al-sharif and the Hanabila connected to them

      - The Legal Ruling Upon Those who Undermine the Ash’aris: Imam Ibn Rushd al-Jadd [al-Maliki] (d. 520 AH)

      (There are other interesting posts in this thread, but the above are the most relevant ones.)
      Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 30-01-21, 06:32 PM.

      Comment


      • @abu sulayman

        Is the prayer if a person recites al-Fatiha in English his prayer valid?

        Because if the actual Qu’raan is nothing but the product of His kalam nafsi, that means it has no sounds or letters. It has no distinguishing features at all, its just becomes one big blob of a telepathic message that can only be “inspired” by whom He wills. That as well means there is no language of the Qur’aan, it is a heap of message that is free of any import or meaning and only has meaning when it is applied to creational spheres, like language, letters our sounds.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
          @abu sulayman

          Is the prayer if a person recites al-Fatiha in English his prayer valid?

          Because if the actual Qu’raan is nothing but the product of His kalam nafsi, that means it has no sounds or letters. It has no distinguishing features at all, its just becomes one big blob of a telepathic message that can only be “inspired” by whom He wills. That as well means there is no language of the Qur’aan, it is a heap of message that is free of any import or meaning and only has meaning when it is applied to creational spheres, like language, letters our sounds.
          That was actually a view of one of the Salaf

          I should say: You do realise that the early view of Imam al-Azam Abu Hanifah Rahimullah Alay was exactly that. He permitted the Qir'aah of the Qur'an in Farsi (or any other language), and this extended to Salah. Now why do you think he held that view? It seems you already know.

          But human translation of the Lafz of the Qur'an is not possible

          As for why it isn't possible for humans to translate the Qur'an (or for that to be legally valid for recital), Aqli reasoning for this is simple. The Qur'an (according the Ash'ari/Maturidi view) is meaning. The speech of Allah they say is infinite true meaning. Meaning does not have language. And yet it is also true that words in particular languages that are used to convey the Qur'an (acc. to Ash'ari/Maturidi), carry and convey to the reader particular and exact meanings of the divine speech that it is hard to translate into another language - as the words in the other language carry fundamental meanings related to those languages. So translation never really works - you will inevitably end up changing the fundamental meaning. It is known that in Fiqh al-Akbar, Imam al-Azam is reported to have prohibited the translation of certain attributes of Allah due to this reason - the connotation of those words in the other language.

          But Coming On To Your Point

          وَلَقَدْ كَتَبْنَا فِي الزَّبُورِ مِنْ بَعْدِ الذِّكْرِ أَنَّالْأَرْضَ يَرِثُهَا عِبَادِيَ الصَّالِحُونَ


          And most surely We have written in the Book, after the Reminder, that the land will be inherited by My righteous servants.

          (Qur'an, Surah al-Anbiyah, Ayah 105 Qira'ah Hafs, with Fadil Solimani's Interpretation, highlighting in red for emphasis)
          I said:

          Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
          The word interpreted from the arabic as the "Book" above is the "Zabur", which refers to the revelation given to Dawud Alayhis Salam.

          Compare this with a verse from the Psalms, attributed to Dawud Alayhis Salam:
          צַדִּיקִ֥ים יִֽירְשׁוּ־אָ֑רֶץ וְיִשְׁכְּנ֖וּ לָעַ֣ד עָלֶֽיהָ׃


          ṣad-dî-qîm yî-rə-šū- ’ā-reṣ; wə-yiš-kə-nū lā-‘aḏ ‘ā-le-hā.

          The righteous shall inherit the land, and dwell therein for ever.

          - Psalms 37:29, with Transliteration from Here and English from KJV
          I said:

          Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
          The meanings of the verses are essentially identical to the first clause of the verse in Psalms, with only a few different words being used and one word extra in the Arabic, although some words are essentially identical (Yarithu vs yî-rə-šū-, Ardh vs ’ā-reṣ). The above is thus arguably an example of a verse from the Hebrew Bible which we can confirm is divine speech.

          (Note: The Hebrew word Saddiqim is a false friend to the Arabic of the same sounding word.)
          And note what I said: The meanings.

          Now when I was writing this, it was my point to prove some facts regarding the remnants of the other scriptures, but this doubles as an answer to your contention. You are correct. Divine speech according to their view is not anchored to a language, and the above is arguably evidence of that. According to the very minority views of a few historically, it is even permitted to recite other divine revelation in Salah (although the majority reject this - you have to recite of the Qur'an). Of course I wouldn't recommend anyone try reciting the above - as the vast majority are against that - and even if you took that view it would take the same ruling as Shadh Qira'at or reciting Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud's qira'ah etc.

          Other points to consider in this area

          As for Allah's speech the Qur'an (which I also affirm is his uncreated speech), without weakening or distorting Hadith, please explain the following Hadith:


          Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:

          "Allah has not created in the heavens nor in the earth what is more magnificent than Ayat Al-Kursi."

          Sufyan said: "Because Ayat Al-Kursi is the Speech of Allah, and Allah's Speech is greater than Allah's creation of the heavens and the earth."

          -Jami'at Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 42, Hadith 2884; Your scholar Zubair Ali Zai who authenticates for Darussalam rated it Sahih. Al-Albani also rated it Sahih.

          You cannot exclude the interpretation of a Sahabi from Sunni Islam

          Let us remind ourselves what Ahlus Sunnah is - Ahlus Sunnah is the Madhab of the Prophet Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam and the Sahabah. Now if the Sahabah were to hold what is later the Ash'ari/Maturidi view on Allah's speech/the Qur'an (that it is his uncreated, eternal and pre-eternal attribute but versing, letters following each other etc. are all created aspects), then would that mean that if the Ash'ari hold that view, they are by definition not deviants? Rather they are adopting a view some Sahabah held?

          By the way, Sufyan bin Uyaynah who relates the Hadith used to relate Hadith to Imam Abu Hanifah. Imam Abu Hanifah's Maddhab takes heavily from Abdullah Ibn Mas'ud who is the Sahabi quoted.

          Is it possible that Imam Abu Hanifah adopted this view which is why it is found in works ascribed to him (like Fiqh al-Akbar)? And would that explain why some of the companions of Imam Abu Hanifah became Mu'tazila - they misinterpreted Imam Abu Hanifah's nuianced position on Kalamullah/the Qur'an (that it is uncreated speech and yet for humans to understand it there are limited verses, letters etc, that are created?). Is this where Ibn Kullab's views originate from?

          So in irony are you actually attacking a position explicitly held by a Sahabi?

          Allahu Alam, just food for thought.
          May Allah grant you Sabr brother.

          Even though you asked brother Abu Sulayman, I responded to your question as I found it interesting and a good point worth discussing.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

            Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:

            "Allah has not created in the heavens nor in the earth what is more magnificent than Ayat Al-Kursi."

            Sufyan said: "Because Ayat Al-Kursi is the Speech of Allah, and Allah's Speech is greater than Allah's creation of the heavens and the earth."

            -Jami'at Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 42, Hadith 2884; Your scholar Zubair Ali Zai who authenticates for Darussalam rated it Sahih. Al-Albani also rated it Sahih.
            Are you suggesting here that Abdullaah bin Mas'ud would have considered the Ayaat al Kursi a creation?

            Comment


            • At-Tahaawi (may Allah have mercy on him) said in his famous book al-‘Aqidah:

              The Qur’aan is the word of Allaah, which originated from Him – without discussing how it was spoken. He sent it down to His Messenger by means of revelation (wahy). The believers bear witness to its revelation. They are certain that it is the actual words of Allaah. It is not created like the words of human beings. Whoever hears it and thinks that it is the words of human beings is a disbeliever; Allaah has condemned him, criticised him and warned him of hellfire as He, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning): “I will cast him into Hell-fire” [al-Muddaththir 74:26]. Because Allaah has given the warning of hellfire to those who say “ ‘This is nothing but the word of a human being’” [al-Muddaththir 74:25], we know with certainty that it is the words of the Creator of human beings, and is not like the words of human beings."

              Comment


              • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                ..we know with certainty that it is the words of the Creator of human beings, and is not like the words of human beings."
                Indeed we do .. SubhanAllah, Allah SWT does not leave mankind without guidance.
                He maketh me to lie down in green pastures; He leadeth me beside the still waters - Psalms (Zaboor of Dawood)

                Comment


                • Ibn Qudaamah (may Allah have mercy on him) said:

                  "Part of the speech of Allaah, may He be glorified, is the Holy Qur’an, which is the clear Book of Allaah, His strong rope and straight path, the revelation of the Lord of the Worlds, which was brought down by the Trustworthy Spirit (ar-Rooh al-Ameen, i.e., Jibreel) to the heart of the leader of the Messengers, in a clear Arabic tongue, revealed not created. It originated from Him and will return to Him."

                  Lam‘at al-I‘tiqaad (p. 22-28)

                  What is meant by the words of Ahl as-Sunnah, “it originated from Him”, is that Allaah, may He be exalted, uttered it, so its original appearance and its beginning was from Allaah, may He be exalted.

                  What is meant by their words, “it will return to Him”, is that it will be taken away from people’s hearts and from the Mus-hafs at the end of time, and not one verse of it will remain in people’s hearts or in the Mus-hafs, as is mentioned in a number of reports.

                  Comment


                  • Imam Barbahaari rahimahullaah said,

                    "And the Qur’aan is the Speech of Allaah, His Revelation and His Light. It is not created, because the Qur’aan is from Allaah and that which is from Allaah is not created. This is what was stated by Maalik ibn Anas and by Ahmad ibn Hanbal rahimahumAllaah and by the jurists who came before them and after them. And disputation concerning it is disbelief." (Sharh as Sunnah)

                    Summary:

                    Allaah Speaks with letters [harf] and sound [sawt], however He chooses and however He chooses. His Speech contains words and meaning.

                    – His Speech is an Attribute that pertains to His Self – He’s always had this Attribute.
                    – And His Speech is an Attribute that pertains to His Actions and is related to His Will.

                    Comment


                    • Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:

                      "Allah has not created in the heavens nor in the earth what is more magnificent than Ayat Al-Kursi."

                      Sufyan said: "Because Ayat Al-Kursi is the Speech of Allah, and Allah's Speech is greater than Allah's creation of the heavens and the earth."

                      -Jami'at Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 42, Hadith 2884; Your scholar Zubair Ali Zai who authenticates for Darussalam rated it Sahih. Al-Albani also rated it Sahih.
                      The hadith of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him) from the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) who said:

                      “The superiority of the words of Allaah over all other words is like the superiority of Allaah over all of His creation.”

                      A hasan hadith, narrated by ‘Uthmaan ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (no. 287, 340); al-Laalkaa’i (no. 557)

                      This hadith confirms the belief of the salaf, that the Qur’aan is the word of Allaah and is not created. It does so in two respects:

                      (i) It differentiates between the words of Allaah and other words. Words are either the speech of Allah, which is one of His attributes, or they are created words, which are part of the creation of Allah. Whatever is a divine attribute is ascribed to Allaah, whereas the rest are mentioned in general terms, so as to include all words other than those attributed to Allaah. If all words were created, there would be no need for this differentiation.

                      (ii) The differentiation between the words of Allaah and the words of others is like the differentiation between the essence of Allaah and the essence of others. Allaah’s words and the nature thereof are connected to His essence and the nature thereof, just as the words of created beings and the nature thereof are appropriate to and connected to the essence of created beings and the nature thereof.

                      This argument was presented by Imam ‘Uthmaan ibn Sa‘eed ad-Daarimi in ar-Radd ‘ala al-Jahamiyyah (p. 162-163). After quoting the hadiths on this topic, he said:

                      "These hadiths indicate that the Qur’aan is not created, because you would not see such a great difference when comparing between two created beings as you will see when comparing between Allaah and His creation, because the difference between the two created beings is measurable, whereas the superiority of Allaah over His creation is unmeasurable and no one can grasp it. The same applies to the superiority of His words over the words of created beings. If the words of Allah were created, there would not be such a great difference between them and the words of others, which is like the superiority of Allaah over His creation. There is nothing like unto Him, so there are no words like His words, and no one could ever produce anything like them."

                      Comment


                      • On the basis of rational thinking, if the words of Allaah were created, then it must be one of two scenarios:

                        (i) They are created and exist as part of the essence of Allah

                        (ii) or they are separate from Allaah.

                        Both scenarios are false and in fact constitute abhorrent disbelief.

                        As for the first, it implies that a created thing could exist within the Creator, which is false according to the view of Ahl as-Sunnah and most of the followers of innovation [among the Muslims]. Allaah, may He be exalted, is independent of His creation and has no need of any of them in any way whatsoever.

                        As for the second, its implications lead to denying the attribute of divine speech, because the attribute exists in the one who possesses the attribute – as stated above – and does not exist in anyone or anything else. If it existed in anything else, then it would be an attribute of the one in whom it existed. What this would imply is that the Lord, may He be exalted, does not speak, and this is obvious disbelief, as we have explained above.

                        Comment


                        • An attribute does not exist by itself. If the attribute is an attribute of the Creator, it should exist in Him, and if it is an attribute of a created being, it must inevitably exist in him, such as moving, staying still, standing, sitting, power, will, knowledge, life and other attributes. If an attribute is ascribed to something, then it is describing it and it belongs to the one in whom it exists. So these attributes may be ascribed to the created being, therefore they are descriptions of the created being, as they are ascribed to him. Some of them may also be ascribed to the Creator, such as power, will, knowledge, life and so on. Therefore they are attributes of His, as they are ascribed to Him. When they are ascribed to the created being, they are created, and when they are ascribed to the Creator, they are not created.

                          The attribute of speech is like other attributes; it must exist in something, and if it exists in that thing then it is an attribute of that thing and not of anything else. If it is ascribed to the Creator, may He be exalted, then it is His attribute. If it is ascribed to anyone else, then it is an attribute of that other entity. The attribute of the Creator is not created, just as His essence is not created, whereas the attribute of the created being is created, just as his essence is created. As Allaah has ascribed speech to Himself, and has described Himself as speaking, then His speech (or words) is not created, because it is something that is connected to His essence, and His essence is not created. Discussion of the divine attributes is connected to discussion of the divine essence, and it must be discussed in the same terms.

                          If it is said that the Qur'aan is created, we say: Allaah should be above having ascribed to Him anything that is created. You (Jahamis) – according to your claim – declare Allaah, may He be exalted, to be above having any created things existing in Him. As you declare your Lord, may He be exalted, to be above that, then you should not attribute speech to Him, but if you do not attribute speech to Him, you will be denying textual and rational evidence which testify that Allaah, may He be exalted, possesses the attribute of speech.

                          But they refuse to admit that the words of Allaah, may He be exalted, are not created, on the basis of an argument that is even more false than what is discussed above. They say: We affirm that Allaah speaks with words that exist in something other than Him. Allaah, may He be exalted, spoke to Moosa through created words that existed in the bush and did not exist in Him, therefore we declare Him to be above having created things (i.e., words) exist in Him.

                          We say in response: you regard the words as an attribute of the thing in which they exist, which implies – according to your view – that these were the words of the bush, so it is the bush that spoke to Moosa and said (interpretation of the meaning): “ ‘O Moosa (Moses)! Verily! I am Allah, the Lord of the Alameen (mankind, jinns and all that exists)’” [al-Qasas 28:30]. In that case, there is no difference between the words of the bush and the words of the accursed Pharaoh (interpretation of the meaning): “ ‘I am your lord, most high’” [an-Naazi‘aat 79:24], because the words of the bush are its attributes, and not the attributes of Allaah, and the words of Pharaoh are his attributes; each of them claimed to be divine [according to your claim], so Moosa had no right to object to what Pharaoh said, yet accept the words of the bush!

                          Think about this blatant disbelief which led people who believed in this argument to this shameful innovation and not to submit and accept the facts of revelation mentioned in the Qur’aan, and to turn away from the noble revelation and prefer to it the scum of minds that are controlled by whims and desires that direct them wherever they want.

                          This rational argument was something used by Imam Ahmad (may Allah have mercy on him) against the Mu‘tazili Jahamis when he debated with them in the presence of al-Mu‘tasim. He (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

                          This is the story of Moosa. Allaah said in His Book, speaking of Himself (interpretation of the meaning): “and to Moosa (Moses) Allah spoke directly” [an-Nisa’ 4:164]. Thus Allaah affirms that He spoke to Moosa by way of honouring Moosa, and confirms that it was indeed speech. Allaah, may He be exalted, said (interpretation of the meaning): O Moosa “Verily! I am Allaah! La ilaha illa Ana (none has the right to be worshipped but I)” [Ta-Ha 20:14] but you are denying this, so this pronoun (“I”) would then refer to something other than Allaah, and a created entity would be claiming to be the lord!

                          Narrated by Hanbal in al-Mihnah (p. 52)

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                            Are you suggesting here that Abdullaah bin Mas'ud would have considered the Ayaat al Kursi a creation?
                            No, obviously I'm not. My point is that you (not me) are forced to conclude that from the Hadith as you are unable or unwilling to understand the Ash'ari/Maturidi position.

                            Qur'an Kalamullah Ghayr Makhluq. The Qur'an is the uncreated speech of Allah. The Ash'ari, Maturidi and Athari are in agreement on this.


                            Narrated 'Abdullah bin Mas'ud:

                            "Allah has not created in the heavens nor in the earth what is more magnificent than Ayat Al-Kursi."

                            Sufyan said: "Because Ayat Al-Kursi is the Speech of Allah, and Allah's Speech is greater than Allah's creation of the heavens and the earth."

                            -Jami'at Tirmidhi Vol. 5, Book 42, Hadith 2884; Your scholar Zubair Ali Zai who authenticates for Darussalam rated it Sahih. Al-Albani also rated it Sahih.
                            This Hadith will continue to haunt you until you grow up.

                            Comment


                            • I have stated multiple times before that to believe in Khalq al-Qur'an is Kufr.

                              Comment


                              • I will lay out your optionsmaturidee
                                1. Reject the Hadith. (This is the easiest way out, but it will make it clear to even the clueless that you and your sect are innovators. Those of your sect will also reject you for rejecting an authentic Hadith)
                                2. Make some kind of advanced argument for Tarjih', rejecting the particular wording you find problematic. (You do not have the knowledge to do this, and I'm pretty sure it is impossible anyway. Again it will reveal your true colours. The advanced "scholars" of your sect would probably attempt this.)
                                3. Interpret and distort the Hadith. (Not so easy, but again your identity will be made clear through this. Knowing you this is the path you'd prefer.)
                                4. Accept the Hadith and attribute the Jahmi/Mu'tazili view to a Sahabi, saying that Sahabi is an innovator/disbeliever. (In which case it is clear to everyone you're not a Sunni Muslim. Some might even question if you a Muslim at all if you do this.)
                                5. Accept the Hadith and attribute the Jahmi/Mu'tazili view to a Sahabi, saying some of the Sahabah held such views and so they are valid (If you wanted to do this, you've already shot yourself in the foot by refuting it. Again it would make it clear how much of a innovator you are, but also show how inconsistent you are. I have mentioned in the past a particular personality who has been more academically honest than others of his sect and gone down this path.)
                                6. Accept the Hadith and admit it is referring to the Ash'ari/Maturidi view, but say that this view is deviation and that this Sahabi is a deviant (Again it is clear you are not a Sunni Muslim, and rather it will show you testifying to the orthodoxy of two noble groups from Ahlus Sunnah)
                                7. Ignore the Hadith (Maybe quote other Hadith, or start making other arguments and points. This will show you've been cornered. You have picked this in the past but I doubt you will pick it now. This is arguably the safest thing you could do - but again it will be very telling.)
                                Now my brother, whilst Jahannam has 7 doors, Jannah has 8 doors, and we observe an 8th option:

                                Accept the Hadith, admit it is referring to the Ash'ari/Maturidi view, and accept that view as a valid Sunni view as it was the view of the Sahabi who knew the Ahruf and Qur'an well.

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