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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • Originally posted by TheHaqq
    Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

    So the above mentioned "Salafi" (i.e. AbuNajm) was able to login another time and like the mindless statements of AA, the troll who defends criminals.
    But he was unable to answer an easy question and declare our Lord subhanahu wa ta'ala transcendent from being a 3-dimensional (or n-dimensional) being!

    And he also stated:



    What he intends here is that ISIS has the RIGHT to kill Muslims and he gives a typical Khariji justification for it!

    { قُلْ هَلْ نُنَبِّئُكُم بِالْأَخْسَرِينَ أَعْمَالًا }
    { الَّذِينَ ضَلَّ سَعْيُهُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَهُمْ يَحْسَبُونَ أَنَّهُمْ يُحْسِنُونَ صُنْعًا }

    { Say: Shall We inform you who will be the greatest losers by their works? }
    ​​​​​{ Those whose effort goeth astray in the life of the world, and yet they reckon that they do good work. }

    [Al-Qur`an al-karim 18:103-104 with English interpretation]
    Well... ISIS are a watered down version of the Najdi movement, it's not really a surprise
    I think there's an element of truth to this,
    @Abu Sulayman made a really good informative. thread about this Alhamdulillah Allahumma Bareek 💯

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post
      ^The stupidity and dishonesty displayed here is on another level. No wonder these guys are stuck in their own dumb little bubble.
      Which little bubble do you mean? Are you talking about the bubble of those never having lived in the Middle East/among Muslims whilst working and living with the disbelievers safely in the West. Lecturing those living in the Middle East about being hard to the disbeliever, yet they pay these same disbelievers taxes that in turn gets used to kill their brothers and sisters in the East. Talking about implementing Shari3ah and supporting these criminals who claim to do, yet they would not have the guts to actually move to those war torn countries and leave their comfortable house in the West. The ones who then in turn dare to tell those living the consequences of their stupidity, what is happening to them and how they should react to it whilst they are talking from safely behind their computers. Is this the dumb little bubble you're referring to?

      Comment


      • The popular Hanbali position on the Qur'aan is not what kalaam affiliated Hanbalis do hold as their view:

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            • Originally posted by BintFulaan View Post

              Which little bubble do you mean? Are you talking about the bubble of those never having lived in the Middle East/among Muslims whilst working and living with the disbelievers safely in the West. Lecturing those living in the Middle East about being hard to the disbeliever, yet they pay these same disbelievers taxes that in turn gets used to kill their brothers and sisters in the East. Talking about implementing Shari3ah and supporting these criminals who claim to do, yet they would not have the guts to actually move to those war torn countries and leave their comfortable house in the West. The ones who then in turn dare to tell those living the consequences of their stupidity, what is happening to them and how they should react to it whilst they are talking from safely behind their computers. Is this the dumb little bubble you're referring to?
              The bubble you're posting from now.

              ...Are you talking about the bubble of those never having lived in the Middle East/among Muslims whilst working and living with the disbelievers safely in the West?...
              Do you see Muslim in the west as living safely? People are leaving Islam in droves.

              ...Lecturing those living in the Middle East about being hard to the disbeliever, yet they pay these same disbelievers taxes that in turn gets used to kill their brothers and sisters in the East...
              Taxes are not given voluntarily. Besides, plenty of Muslims in the 'east' support western attacks on Muslims - especially if they are attacking 'Wahhabis'. I would bet that I've spoken out more against these western attacks than most of you people.

              ...Talking about implementing Shari3ah...
              Because implementing shariah is a bad thing, right?

              ..supporting these criminals...
              Explain which criminals I have supported and how. Be specific and provide evidence.

              ...yet they would not have the guts to actually move to those war torn countries and leave their comfortable house in the West.
              Do you believe the average family can get up and move to wherever they want on whim? Do you think it's easy for Muslims to move to war zones or do you think they would be tracked, arrested, jailed and possibly tortured and killed? Which country do you live in? Has your family moved to a war zone to fight? Do you apply the same standards to 'Sunnis' in the west or is it okay for them to live here and pay taxes?

              Comment


              • The popular Hanbali view in a diagram:

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                • Also the more nuanched kalaami Hanbali view (such as hold by Abu Yala) is by no means equal to the Ashaari position. Lets compare it in a diagram form:

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                  ​​​​​​And here is the diagram of the somewhat kalaami influenced Hanbali view:

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                  Last edited by maturidee; 26-01-21, 04:28 PM.

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                  • Also both Muhammad Hasan and Abu Sulayman failed to answer my "command in eternity" question, whereby the scholars of their creed did give various absurd explainations. One such is nu Ghazzali.

                    al-Ghazzālī answers these questions by using verses such as “Take the shoes off your feet” (Ṭāhā 20/12) and “We sent Noah to his people” (Ṭāhā 20/12) and states that the objections to these verses arise from the fact that they are accepted kalām as sound or lafẓ. In the nature of God, it means “We shall send Noah” and after sending it means “We have sent”. According to al-Ghazzālī, speech changes based on the situation whereas the meaning which is eternal with the nature of God does not change.

                    To our understanding, these explanations however, cause to new problem. After the act has been completed in the sentence “We shall send Noah”, it is claimed that the sentence turns into “We have sent”, which is quite problematic indeed. Because there occurs a change in knowledge of God and God’s omnipotence and action undergo an alteration depending on the time. And all of this happens not in our mind or knowledge but in His mind and truth. al-Ghazzālī believes that the change occurs in His knowledge. Although al-Ghazzālī says that the changes in words do not affect the meaning, this cannot be a point of
                    departure. For, the meaning in each sentence is clearly different: one reads “We shall send”, and the other
                    “We have sent.”

                    Let us continue with al-Ghazzālī’s statements. According to al-Ghazzālī, the truth of a message requires a connection with its bearer; which, in this case, is Noah’s being sent down to people. And that knowledge cannot be changed in accordance with situation as mentioned in the topic knowledge of God. The phrase of God “Take off your shoes” is in fact an indicator of a specific command. And command is a lafẓ that requires the addressee to obey, a demand that is born by the One who commands. In order to solve this problem, al-Ghazzālī says, “to make the command take place, it is not necessary for the servant to exist (before his existence). However, before the existence of the command, it could be accepted that the command exists with its owner”76 And this logical proposition might partly relieve our concerns.

                    In brief, al-Ghazzālī, tried to come up with counter-evidence and logical propositions to refute the
                    claims that the Holy Book - the Qurʾān in this case - is makhlūq; the claim which resulted from God’s being
                    One with His kalām attribute and His dialogue with human beings. When doing this, he employs dialectics
                    and tries to answer the very complicated questions that are asked or possible to be asked.

                    As far as i have seen this idea is taken from Ibn Kullaab who held the view that the commands are not eternal. Ibn Kullāb believed that God’s Speech does not eternally consist of commands, prohibitions, and information; God does not command, forbid, and inform in eternity. God’s
                    Speech only becomes commands, prohibitions, and information when it takes a verbal linguistic expression on the basis of some cause or reason related to an address. This entails, for Ibn Kullāb, a unitary understanding of God’s Speech as a simple attribute bereft of any kind of multiplicity in meanings.

                    Here is a diagram of Ibn Kullaabs view:

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                    • Here is a overview in diagram. Only the Ḥanbalī view meets the typical description of Muslim belief prevalent in academic and educational literature – that the Qur’ān is the eternal literal speech or words of God dictated verbatim to the Prophet.

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                      • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                        The bubble you're posting from now.

                        Do you see Muslim in the west as living safely? People are leaving Islam in droves.

                        Taxes are not given voluntarily. Besides, plenty of Muslims in the 'east' support western attacks on Muslims - especially if they are attacking 'Wahhabis'. I would bet that I've spoken out more against these western attacks than most of you people.

                        Because implementing shariah is a bad thing, right?

                        Explain which criminals I have supported and how. Be specific and provide evidence.

                        Do you believe the average family can get up and move to wherever they want on whim? Do you think it's easy for Muslims to move to war zones or do you think they would be tracked, arrested, jailed and possibly tortured and killed? Which country do you live in? Has your family moved to a war zone to fight? Do you apply the same standards to 'Sunnis' in the west or is it okay for them to live here and pay taxes?
                        May Allah azza wa jalla reward you for your patience in dealing with some of the people on this forum.

                        They say, "Why don't you do something and try to move to a conflict zone to act upon your convictions [that we are assuming you have without any proof]?" But then, when Muslims do exactly that, they say, "why did you go to those zones except to make more trouble? These are part of this or that group of extremists. You don't belong there because you're not Syrian, or Iraqi, etc."

                        And these are the same people crying about "equality" in Islam and that "racism" shouldn't exist.

                        When I say that Muslims who fight to implement the Shari'ah have to fight and kill those who stand in the way in order to solve the problems of injustice that exist- they automatically assume I am referring to any group that they hate!

                        And they use the above to do what? To impugn my honor, question my motives in a discussion about Aqidah, and discredit any qualifications I have to speak on any issues in Islam.

                        Do they realize that I have been on the no-fly list? Do they realize that I have been detained, searched, and interrogated for over one thousand hours? Do they realize what my wife and children have suffered not knowing whether I will return to them from the hands of Disbelievers when I leave home due to checkpoints near my home where I am frequently detained and questioned? Do they know that the Disbelievers are waiting for me to attempt to travel to a "conflict zone" so they can arrest me like they have my brothers and colleagues like Musa Cerantonio, Tarek Mehanna, and others?

                        No. Instead, when I react to those who make jokes about me being part Mexican, accusing me of "fraud", calling me a "Wahhabi", following me to other threads and accusing me of lying about my qualifications, calling me and my Mashayikh "clowns"- they say nothing about that behavior or those behind it. But when I defend myself and adjust my words towards such people to match their level of disrespect and disregard- they want to point the finger at me.

                        Nothing but hypocrisy and attempts to stifle presentation of views that contradict their unqualified comments about the Deen.

                        When people of deviation comment here about every aspect of the Deen, they have a "right" to comment, even when they are disrespectful and break the rules of the forum and basic Muslim etiquette towards elders.

                        When I respond with equal fervor in defending the positions that I have adopted while proving they are based on the texts of scholars of the Deen, then I am accused of "always having to be right", or "not having authority to speak"- with the same moderator chiming in every time to accuse me of poor character. If I followed someone across threads to comment only with my poor opinion of their character without even attempting to address the topic of the thread, I would be accused of breaking forum rules. But since it is a moderator or a deviant who doesn't like me, it's ok.

                        Double standards are obvious on this forum.

                        I will never wonder why almost ALL of the past students of knowledge and Muslim leaders who are active in their respective communities stopped being regulars here. Until some of these moderators are let go and the rules of the forum are applied equally and without prejudice, this forum will be frequented only by equally ignorant and biased individuals only capable of copying and pasting links to videos and other websites when it comes to "knowledge".

                        The only reason this forum is still around while most of the others have gone offline- someone keeps paying the bills. It's definitely NOT because mods and members foster an atmosphere of welcoming different views and respect for elders and those with more knowledge and experience.

                        Some of the people here don't want anyone else enjoying the same allowances, rights, freedom to comment, and mutual-protection that they enjoy. It is becoming more and more like the forums run by Salafis, Sufis and Ash'aris where hostility is shown towards anyone not towing the line on methods, predominant thinking, and a certain list of "scholars".

                        Here is a thread about Hanbalis and Atharis. I am demonstrably both not because I say so but because even as I type this, I am one of the only people on this forum actively involved in part of teaching and publishing on the subjects at a university-level with authorizations from several Mashayikh in the texts of both subjects.

                        Yet, the other two frequent posters in this thread, who are admittedly Ash'ari, and refuse to volunteer, with one of them refusing to say whether he has any, qualifications on either subject, have accused me of "fraud" and the lack of "authority" to even comment on the subjects.

                        And who is the one being shouted down by several others commenting on the thread without any references whatsoever to the main topics, but rather only referencing what they fantasize is my support for extremist groups [none of whom I've ever mentioned by name on this forum in a supportive way or sympathetic way].

                        I was asked by another forum member in a private message to come to this thread and comment. That's the only reason I began posting on this forum after a year or more.

                        Does anyone wonder why I won't be returning to the forum or commenting further? Why would anyone engaged in seeking, spreading and teaching knowledge come here unless they're "pre-approved" by the admin/mods as individuals that must be shown respect for their "knowledge"?

                        Comment


                        • AbuNajm I was trying to have a normal conversation with you - as already stated here - and I don't think you can claim that I've made fun of you. I only criticized the way you entered into the thread and directly acted as some sort of a Muhaddith. I also did not say that you're not allowed to speak regarding creed, but I did advice you to broaden your reading and to be careful how you present your creed, because it may be possible that people understand from your words that which you are not intending.
                          You had an argumentation with another brother and not with me, so why are you acting like this now as if you have been oppressed [by me]?

                          I asked you a simple question and that was the ruling upon the belief of the one who believes his Creator to be a 3-dimensional being - or say a being with height, width and depth - and you did not answer it. My intention was to ask you for clarification of the words of a scholars thereafter (as already clarified). I asked you again and again, but you did not answer. I think you know also that this is very suspicious and it seems you have a weird belief to hide and that's why you are unable to answer openly.

                          Additionally I adviced you to listen to some contemporary Hanbali Mashayikh - especially Shaykh Muhammad al-Sayyid Mustafa and Shaykh Muhammad 'Abd al-Wahid - and you rejected this simply for their connection to al-Azhar al-sharif (as if this is a negative thing!)! You also claimed them to be Ash'aris, which is clearly not the case. Someone like Shaykh Muhammad al-Sayyid Mustafa is very knowledgeable and has studied all the important works of the Madhhab with scholars, yet you refuse to even listen to his lectures on creed!
                          What does that tell us about you?

                          Note that your "Salafi" Mashayikh deal in a similar manner with classical Hanabila and some of them even accuse them of treason as shall be shown insha`Allah!
                          So the way you look down upon contemporary Hanbali Mashayikh, who are far more advanced in knowledge than you (I'm not intending to make fun of you with this, but this is simply a fact), is similar to how "Salafi" Mashayikh look down upon the LEADING scholars of the Madhhab of the past, who are not just far more advanced in knowledge to them, but are even on the level of Ijtihad inside the Madhhab!
                          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 26-01-21, 08:15 PM.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                            They say, "Why don't you do something and try to move to a conflict zone to act upon your convictions [that we are assuming you have without any proof]?" But then, when Muslims do exactly that, they say, "why did you go to those zones except to make more trouble? These are part of this or that group of extremists. You don't belong there because you're not Syrian, or Iraqi, etc."

                            And these are the same people crying about "equality" in Islam and that "racism" shouldn't exist.
                            You should not go to conflict zones, especially if your intention is to join criminal groups. If you join these groups you'll inevitably kill Muslims [and also other innocent people] and this is among the greatest of sins.
                            Rather you should have the intention to live in a place where there is less tribulations to commit sins or to fall into disbelief. These places are usually Muslim countries.

                            Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                            When I say that Muslims who fight to implement the Shari'ah have to fight and kill those who stand in the way in order to solve the problems of injustice that exist- they automatically assume I am referring to any group that they hate!
                            Your posts imply support for such groups, so it's your own fault if we understand you like that! And if I were to ask you whether you're disassociating yourself from AQI / ISI and ISIS, you would most likely again not answer just like you are unable to answer my other question.

                            Then: People like you are living on a different planet. You don't know the reality of our countries, yet are speaking about "implementing the Shari'a". The problem is NOT that of one person or two in order to "simply kill them". It's a collective problem. A good portion of this Umma is in such a mental state and have such actions that they simply don't deserve to be living under a just society in accordance to the divine laws! So will you slaughter them all? This is the very mindset of the Khawarij!

                            Then: If the Shari'a would be implemented fully and properly, your sect would basically die out. I don't know whether you even realize that. Why do you think your group is a modern movement and could only raise their heads when the Khilafa fell? Any ideas?
                            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 26-01-21, 08:34 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                              Do they realize that I have been on the no-fly list? Do they realize that I have been detained, searched, and interrogated for over one thousand hours? Do they realize what my wife and children have suffered not knowing whether I will return to them from the hands of Disbelievers when I leave home due to checkpoints near my home where I am frequently detained and questioned? Do they know that the Disbelievers are waiting for me to attempt to travel to a "conflict zone" so they can arrest me like they have my brothers and colleagues like Musa Cerantonio, Tarek Mehanna, and others?
                              This is most likely your own fault, because you write things that make you appear suspicious!

                              Then: Anyone who wants to "migrate" to Syria and Iraq in order to join some armed group, should be STOPPED from this! Why? Because those who have not been stopped, came to our countries and started killing other Muslims! So it's a good thing if such persons are not let into our countries!

                              Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                              Musa Cerantonio
                              Wait! Is this the ISIS-fanboy, who said something like "if the Prophet were among us, which group would he join". Please don't tell me that I have the right person in mind!
                              If this the person who made the above statement, then such a person has fallen into clear blasphemy, because he denied the rank of the Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - and denigrated him! The Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is the Master of the Children of Adam (peace be upon him) and the Seal of [all] Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them all) and he is to be followed and not the other way around!
                              Note that such type of statements are blasphemy no matter whether the intention is denigration or not as already clarified here (see "the second case"): "Qadhi 'Iyadh: Ruling upon seven cases which contain disrepect towards the Prophet ﷺ"

                              Such persons are not our brothers, rather we disassociate ourselves from them.
                              Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 26-01-21, 08:51 PM.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by AbuNajm View Post
                                Here is a thread about Hanbalis and Atharis. I am demonstrably both not because I say so but because even as I type this, I am one of the only people on this forum actively involved in part of teaching and publishing on the subjects at a university-level with authorizations from several Mashayikh in the texts of both subjects.
                                You surely will not be able to deny that the Shaykh Muhammad 'Abd al-Wahid is far more advanced in knowledge and learning to you regarding the Madhhab of the Hanabila! As for Shaykh Muhammad al-Sayyid Mustafa, then he's far far more advanced in knowledge, yet you refuse to even listen to them and broaden your knowledge.

                                You also reject the very works that the traditional Hanabila would teach to be reliable in creed! So your definition of being "Hanbali" is clearly not in line with the classical one!

                                Then: Most of the Mashayikh that have given you some sort of Ijaza, then their own Ijaza stops with the chainless heretic Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH), who did not even know 'Ilm al-Balagha properly and yet tried to act as if he's some sort of a prophet.
                                This is how reality looks like, whether you like to admit it or not.
                                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 26-01-21, 09:09 PM.

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