Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

[maturidee]

Allah Azza Wa Jal who is outside time addressed Musa Alayhis Salam inside time, yes.

.....

Allah addressed the Musa Alayhis Salam who is in time and place.

......

Allah who is outside time and place - not on the timeline - is talking to Musa Alayhis Salam in time and place - on the timeline.

I wrote before what kind of weird binding neccasities arise with this "outside of time/place" denotion in relation with creation.

And you just did shoot yourself.

Creation (including Musa who was adressed) came into existance after it was non-existant.

Allaah was existing, while there was no creation.

This leads to the binding neccasity that according to your view Allaah outside of time and place adressed Musa after creation and not before when Allaah was existing and nothing else. This means according to your view and understanding Allaah's speech is not eternal.

Do you see how you ended op?

[Muhammad Hasan]

I wrote before what kind of weird binding neccasities arise with this "outside of time/place" denotion in relation with creation.

And you just did shoot yourself.

Creation (including Musa who was adressed) came into existance after it was non-existant.

Allaah was existing, while there was no creation.

This leads to the binding neccasity that according to your view Allaah outside of time and place adressed Musa after creation and not before when Allaah was existing and nothing else. This means according to your view and understanding Allaah's speech is not eternal.

Do you see how you ended op?

That speech to Musa Alayhis Salam by the way is written in al-Lawh al-Mahfuz, as all things are from the beginning till the day of judgement. That tablet is one of the first things created. Allah's addressing of Musa Alayhis Salam is written on that tablet, Allah Azza Wa Jal's message to Musa Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam is on that tablet.

Did Musa Alayhis Salam exist when the pen inscribed that on the tablet? No.

Was he Alayhis Salam already addressed? Yes, and he was addressed even outside time itself.


Allah outside time addressed Musa Alayhis Salam who is inside time.

Allah is outside time.

Allah's addressing is outside time.

But Musa Alayhis Salatu Was Salam, who is adressed, is created - he is inside time.






Outside of Time

Allah La Ilaha Illa Huwa.

Allah's speaking is outside of time, His speech is also outside of time. In that speech is his message to Musa Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam.

Allah knows, wills and decrees, and does the act of creating of all things, including what Musa Alayhis Salam himself would say. He does all of this outside of time.

NOT in a time before the beginning of time, but outside of it. When reading each point below, go back and read what I have written in the subtitle outside of Time, to remind yourself that outside of time is not in a "time before time".

Inside of Time

1. At the beginning of time was no creation. No temporal beings exist. So, apart from that which is external to time, nothing exists in the first moment.
2. Then many things come into existance by Allah's timeless decree, including al-Lawh al-Mahfuz, where his speech to Musa Alayhis Salam was also written down by the obedient pen.
3. Then by Allah's timeless decree many things come into existance, and Adam Alayhis Salam then goes to Earth by Allah's timeless decree. Then after many Prophets Alayhim Salam, Musa Alayhis Salam is born and he is thrown in the river etc. all by Allah's timeless decree.
4. Then in the sacred valley, Musa Alayhis Salam heard that speech of Allah which is timeless and eternal, which addressed him and comprehended of it what Allah willed his brilliant but limited, created mind to comprehend.
5. Then Musa Alayhis Salam rebuked the disbelievers.
6. Then after many centuries, maturidee comes along and starts asking how it is that if Allah spoke outside of time, but the addressed is inside of time, that Allah's speech is eternal, as surely this means his speech is not eternal but created.
7. Then I wrote this post, and then - and all this by the divine timeless decree - the day of judgement comes when Allah knows, and then the people enter Jannah or Jahannam. Some enter Jahannam but enter Jannah later. And Insha'Allah both maturidee and I enter Jannah, and insha'Allah we discuss this in our free time and laugh at the silliness of the dunya, and enjoy ourselves for eternity.

To Him is the return.

[AbuNajm]

The above is quite a big mistake, because you're acting as if something that is based upon clear-cut Ayat (the Muhkamat) and something that the scholars of the Sunna in general have regarded as the very foundation in the issue of the divine attributes - and that is Allah's complete dissimilarity to His creation - as something ambiguous!

At the very same time you act as if those Ayat and Ahadith which fall under the ambiguous ones in meaning (the Mutashabihat) are clear-cut in meaning and should be taken as the foundation.

This is in opposition to the Qur`an al-karim, because the Mutashabih needs to be understood in the context of the Muhkam and not the other way around.

Yes, some people may take this foundation and use it in a wrong manner, this however does not change the fact that this issue is the very foundation in the divine attributes.

I'm under deadline for a translation to be used as a textbook in an Islamic college for a course on Hanbali Fiqh taught by a former instructor of Usul al-Fiqh/Fiqh at Umm al-Qura University.

So, forgive me if my responses, if any, will be short until after that.

I'm sure you're aware of the differences of opinion in what constitutes Muhkam and Mustashaabih. For the sake of argument, if you think that I'm going to concede the major Ash'ari/Mutakallimi view to define "mutashaabih" as all the verses referring to Allah's Attributes, then that's not happening.

I'll leave a link for those interested in reading what Ahl as-Sunnah have to say about the meaning of "Muhkam" and "Mutashaabih":

Ad-Dorar

In that link, you will find the criteria and examples for different types of Tashaabih and 'Ihkaam. Among them is the Tashaabih `Aam which can actually confirm the 'Ihkaam, though that won't be apparent to everyone. So, you're wrong in stating absolutism about this subject like: "Mutashabih needs to be understood in the context of the Muhkam". The Mutashaabih can appear to be contradictory to the Muhkaam, in which case the context of the Muhkaam will contradict the correct understanding of the Mutashaabih. This is the part where the "Raasikhuun" come into play.

That said, the verse that says that nothing is like Allah is a general verse and is specified by other verses and Ahadith dealing with Aqaa'id and Attributes. This is not a groundbreaking or unusual statement except to Ash'aris because they [ab]use the Ayah in order to negate Allah's Attributes instead of provide a basis for understanding that this Ayah is proof of the greatness and perfection of all of Allah's Attributes.

Historically speaking the biggest group of anthropomorphists were the Karramiyya and they did not say that Allah ta'ala is like man in his attributes, but the scholars regarded them as such because of their affirmation of God being subject to temporality and their belief in corporeality.
(They even existed in the time of Imam al-Razi (d. 606 AH) and Herat was filled with them.)

You are contradicting yourself above- so saying that Allah is "corporeal" is NOT saying that Allah AWJ is like man?

My statement on this was meant to be as general as possible to include all the historical groups that Ahl as-Sunnah are agreed upon in regarding their beliefs as "Tajseem" and "Tashbeeh", i.e., Mujaasimah/Mushaabihah. That is to say, unless you can point to a group still around today that Ahl as-Sunnah are on record as agreeing upon their being a part of those historical groups, then let's not split hairs about the historical groups and the criteria for their inclusion in a larger category of heresy.

In other words, yes, there are sects which are guilty of Shirk via Hululiyyah and others means, however, they are not typically included among the Mujaasimah/Mushaabihah. Not every sect involved in the Kufr of Tashbeeh and Tajseem were categorized by that act or those statements, for whatever reason.

Imam Abu Hanifa (d. 150 AH) famously regarded Muqatil bin Sulayman (d. 150 AH) as an anthropomorphist and this while he had not said that Allah ta'ala is like man (in fact he openly denied this as mentioned in Maqalat al-Islamiyyin), but rather stated things which obviously indicate Tashbih.

This is what I mean by warning you and others to verify and contextualize quotes before bringing them as if they are fact and the only perspective:

وأما مقاتل Ù�الله أعلم بØقيقة Øاله. والأشعري ينقل هذه المقالات من كتب المعتزلة، ÙˆÙ�يهم انØراÙ� عن مقاتل بن سليمان، Ù�لعلهم زادوا Ù�ÙŠ النقل عنه، أو نقلوا عنه، أو نقلوا عن غير ثقة، وإلا Ù�ما أظنه يصل إلى هذا الØد

"Ans as for Muqaatil, then Allah knows best the reality of his condition. Al-'Ash'ari related these statements from the books of the Mu'tazilah and in them are distortions on authority of Muqaatil bin Sulayman. So, perhaps they added to the reports on his authority; or they themselves related on his authority; or non-trustworthy individuals related on his authority; otherwise, I do not believe he reached to this extent [of Tashbeeh]."

Shaykh ul-Islam 'Ibn Taymiyyah, Majmu' al-Fatawa 2/619

There are plenty of scholars who understood the same about Muqaatil and even al-'Imam al-Azam Abu Hanifah suffered from this unfortunate type of misunderstanding as well. There are well-known comments about Abu Hanifah, rahimahu Llahu, that accuse him of all sorts of heresy and innovated statements which are not authentically attributed to him.

So the affirmation of a degree of similiarity in the reality falls under Tashbih and you can't deny this.

So if a person claims for example that God is described with a literal face and regards a 3-dimensional form regarding it to be possible, then this is Tashbih.
"Rectangular or circular [face]... god knows best" does that ring any bell!?

You keep circling back to the same thing, time and again. You would make a great herder [and I don't mean this pejoratively].

I won't answer that question until you bring me what I asked for, In Sha' Allah.

We ask Allah ta'ala for well-being and protection.

Ameen.

I'll be waiting for a response to my question regarding the ruling upon the belief of the one whom you're 100% sure of believing in a 3-dimensional being as his Lord.

Bring me an explicit statement of this belief as an Attribute of Allah from a major scholar of Aqidah, then I will respond, In Sha' Allah.

[AbuNajm]

To Him is the return.

Here you are drawing images claiming that they represent "Allah's Will", and you're accuses others of "Tashbeeh" in Allah's Attributes?!

In reality, the Ashaa'irah are the biggest Mujassimah and Mushaabihah because to them, all the beliefs of common Muslims and the scholars of Aqidah of Ahl as-Sunnah are reinterpreted by Ash'aris to constitute Tajseem and Tashbeeh.

[Muhammad Hasan]

Here you are drawing images claiming that they represent "Allah's Will", and you're accuses others of "Tashbeeh" in Allah's Attributes?!

In reality, the Ashaa'irah are the biggest Mujassimah and Mushaabihah because to them, all the beliefs of common Muslims and the scholars of Aqidah of Ahl as-Sunnah are reinterpreted by Ash'aris to constitute Tajseem and Tashbeeh.

It's a timeline diagram as it says at the top, not a depiction of Allah or his will, both are undepictable. Allah's will is not several lines coming down from the word Allah written on a page. Allah and all his attributes are far removed and transcendent from anything anyone draws or can draw.



But. Since you have said the one who draws such things are Mujassimah and Mushabihah,

then by the way, what do you think of the following diagrams:

And:

And:

I am sure you will agree the idiots who drew these are Mujassimah.

[Muhammad Hasan]

Source: http://www.asharis.com/creed/article...ijis-acade.cfm

[Muhammad Hasan]

I ask Allah's forgiveness from drawing such diagrams, I didn't even think of whether it is permitted or not, imitation of the Mujassimah is an awful idea.

I request Abu 'Abdullaah to remove the "Timeline diagram exp. Tanzih from time" diagrams from my posts if he can as I can no longer edit them. May Allah reward him for that.

AbuNajm I thank you for bringing that up.

Allah is far removed from any depiction or possible depiction, he is far removed.

[maturidee]

That speech to Musa Alayhis Salam by the way is written in al-Lawh al-Mahfuz, as all things are from the beginning till the day of judgement. That tablet is one of the first things created. Allah's addressing of Musa Alayhis Salam is written on that tablet, Allah Azza Wa Jal's message to Musa Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam is on that tablet.

Did Musa Alayhis Salam exist when the pen inscribed that on the tablet? No.

Was he Alayhis Salam already addressed? Yes, and he was addressed even outside time itself.

Look Muhammad, im not asking about the Lawh al Mahfudh. I'm asking about the speech of Allaah that adressed Musa personally:

• Before any creation there was only Allaah and nothing else

According to your view in this state Allaah was outside time and place, right ?

And in this state as per Ashari creed the Qur'aan as a meaning (i.e. kalaam nafsi) was ever present with Him, right?

So this means Allaah's command to Musa as a meaning was ever present with Allaah.

This means Musa was adressed in this eternal meaning while he was non-existant.

It is this last point that you need to pay attention to and adress this.

[TheHaqq]

You know I used to think the scholars were exaggerating when they said the Ummah is losing knowledge and getting more ignorant with the centuries, when they say the laypeople used to hold the knowledge that scholars do today etc. but I am glad to know it is no exaggeration from seeing the likes of you.

By the way, what is your view - do you say the Earth orbits the Sun or the Sun orbits the Earth like Abu Iyaad from your beloved Asharis.com says?

Remember, this same Abu Iyaad is saying whoever denies this is a disbeliever.

He also said that the earth is flat, yes, in the late 20th century he said that, these are the people salafis pride themselves with

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

He also said that the earth is flat, yes, in the late 20th century he said that, these are the people salafis pride themselves with

I bet he doesn’t believe in the theory of evolution either.

[isa_muhammad]

He also said that the earth is flat..

It depends where you live .. people living in mountain areas know very well that it is NOT

[TheHaqq]

It is correct to say Allah created time, as creation is the making of something existant as opposed to non-existant. If Allah had willed for time to not exist, there would be no creation just Him Azza Wa Jal - no creation would be as all the creations require time.

Exalted is He above all things.

I really think you are wasting your time because he does not even understand the Asha'ari position, so any discussion beyond that is pointless

[TheHaqq]

I bet he doesn’t believe in the theory of evolution either.

Nice comparison

[TheHaqq]

It depends where you live .. people living in mountain areas know very well that it is NOT

Well, he would have made takfeer on them for saying that

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Nice comparison

It’s the 21st century.