Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

[Simply_Logical]

So just to understand, are you saying it's been on the increase due to the money being backed by Saudi Arabia to push forward that specific belief and methodology?

Yes, the Saudi backing played a major role, but also the general rise of materialism in the whole world and the widespread ignorance regarding the religion of Allah ta'ala.

Well on a side note I've personally experienced a salafi raqi (again not all salafi raqis, so not generalising) instead of asking what issue is whether to determine sihr or any or mass etc etc,
The first thing he asked is 'where is Allah?'
I'm at the time I was like I don't know and then he was like he's above the Arab and Kursi and you need to fix your aqidah and I was just thinking to myself I got your number as I just need help, so instead of forcing your methodology onto me, as a Muslim brother just recite authentic duas adhkar and Qur'an for me

Either way it's an interesting topic tbh

Unfortunately many "Salafis" are not able to differentiate between what is important and what not. May Allah ta'ala guide us and them.

They think that since the question is mentioned in one narration in a completely different context it justifies them going around and "testing the faith of Muslims" through this question.
If you go and see the actual narration and that there is more than one version of it - some of which are stronger than the above version - and that the person asked was most likely either a non-Arab or deaf and that the actual question may even been not in this wording and that in the Arabic language "Ayna" (where) isn't just asked for location (Makan), but also for rank / station (Makana), then it becomes clear that going around and asking everyone this question is not from the Sunna, nor have the Muslims of the past done so.

As for the Highness of Allah ta'ala: Then as Muslims we believe in an absolute Highness and not physical or sensory one, because we believe that the Creator is beyond space in the very first place. So our statement "He's upon the throne" is not a affirmation of place or location, but rather in order to declare Him transcendent from place!

This is why Imam Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 388 AH) said in his A'lam al-Hadith (p. 1474):

وليس معنى قول المسلمين: إن الله على العرش، هو أنه تعالى مماس له أو متمكن فيه. أو متحيز في جهة من جهاته، لكنه بائن من جميع خلقه

The meaning of the statement of the Muslims that Allāh is over the throne is not that He is touching it or settled on it or bounded by one of its directions, but that He is beyond all His creation.
- end of quote -

@Abu Sulayman on a side note are you a Sufi?

p.s forgot to ask on my last post

I'm not part of any Tariqa, so the answer is no.
But I obviously respect Tasawwuf as a science and as part of Islam and I respect the real Sufiyya like Imam al-Junayd (d. 298 AH). In our time there are also a lot of weird cultist Sufis (this existed also in the past), but this does not mean that Tasawwuf in itself is wrong.

I regard the four Madhahib as representative of the correct jurisprudence and the Ash'aris, Maturidis and traditional Hanabila as representative of the correct creed.

Interesting

Yea I understand what you're referring to when speaking about Allah being the most high but not in a literal sense

Yea some crazy stuff done in the name of Sufism these days to be fair

I'm trying not to side track this thread but I want to ask, do you believe the prophet sallahu alayhi wa salaam is made of Noor (light)? Also do you believe he is hadir and nadir (as in he knows and sees everything)?

Which is essentially the barelvi belief in a nutshell, do you agree with this belief and if so, why?

[Abu Sulayman]

So how do 'some' (as you can appreciate not all the salafis are the we) view the beliefs of imam tahawi?

As in those who believe Allah SWT has limbs, height etc etc

Well, they try distort his words because it wouldn't look good if they would openly state that they believe that "Imam al-Tahawi is a deviant". I mean the rank of Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) and his general acceptance among the people of the Sunna is known to them.
Add to this: His work is representative of the creed of the early Muslims, so attacking his creed openly would destroy their whole claim of "following the Salaf".

Just an example how they distort his words: Imam al-Tahawi categorically declared Allah ta'ala transcendent from limits (Hudud) and added to this the negation of parameters, or having constituents, limbs or instruments. So he leaves no room for Tajsim whatsoever as is obvious from the very wording he uses.
Ibn Baz - another "major Salafi" - didn't like this and claimed "the author means limits that we know, but God has limits that He knows". I mean it's so obvious that Imam al-Tahawi never intended this as is clear from the very meanings that he negated alongside limits!

Interesting

Yea I understand what you're referring to when speaking about Allah being the most high but not in a literal sense

Yea some crazy stuff done in the name of Sufism these days to be fair

I'm trying not to side track this thread but I want to ask, do you believe the prophet sallahu alayhi wa salaam is made of Noor (light)? Also do you believe he is hadir and nadir (as in he knows and sees everything)?

Which is essentially the barelvi belief in a nutshell, do you agree with this belief and if so, why?

Our noble Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is referred to as Nur (light) in the Book of Allah ta'ala (see Aya 5:15) and you can check the classical books of Tafsir (like the one of Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH)) in support of this. This obviously does not exclude him - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - from being a human being from the offspring of Adam - peace be upon him -, but our Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is the Best of all humankind and the creation in general as is known.

Our Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is alive in his grave and informed regarding our state and he prays for his Umma and all of this is established through authentic narrations. He's the most knowledgeable among the creation, because Allah ta'ala teached him more knowledge from the unseen than any other creation.
This however does not mean that he - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - is All-Knowing and All-Seeing, because these are divine attributes and exclusive to Allah ta'ala as we all know.

[aMuslimForLife]

So just to understand, are you saying it's been on the increase due to the money being backed by Saudi Arabia to push forward that specific belief and methodology?

Well on a side note I've personally experienced a salafi raqi (again not all salafi raqis, so not generalising) instead of asking what issue is whether to determine sihr or any or mass etc etc,
The first thing he asked is 'where is Allah?'
I'm at the time I was like I don't know and then he was like he's above the Arab and Kursi and you need to fix your aqidah and I was just thinking to myself I got your number as I just need help, so instead of forcing your methodology onto me, as a Muslim brother just recite authentic duas adhkar and Qur'an for me

Either way it's an interesting topic tbh

aMuslimForLife where can I get the book from in the UK? Maybe darussalam?

https://www.hubooks.com/Belief/Imam-...Creed-Of-Islam




This is a reliable translation and commentary of Aqida Tahawi by Imam Abu Hafs Siraj al Din al Ghaznawi.

Here is an example:

Imam Tahawi said, "Imaginations cannot grasp Him, and understandings cannot comprehend Him."

Imam al Ghaznawi comments:

Imagination (wahm) is the faculty wherewith one perceives particulars, and understanding (fahm) is the mind's comprehension of universals. Allah Most Hight is not compounded, nor does He have a modality whereby He can be imprinted on the imagination, nor is He delimited whereby the mind can grasp His reality and encompass it. Nay, He is exalted above all of that! Allah Most High said, while none encompasses His knowledge (Quran 20:110). This is so because comprehension 9idrak), which is to encompass something from all of its sides, is only conceivable in the case of what is delimited and finite."

Imam Tahawi said, He does not resemble creatures (anam).

Imam al Ghaznawi comments: It (anam) is anything that has a soul; it has also been said that it is the entire creation; and it has been said that what is meant by anam is man. This latter meaning more probably because he intended by it (his statement) to negate the doctrine of the anthropomorphism (mushabbihah - those who make tashbih) and the corporealists (mujassimah), as they attributed to the Originator a body in the form of a man. He also intended to negate the doctrine of the Christians, as they assigned Him a son and wife. Allah is exalted above that!

Imam al Ghaznawi is Maturidi in Aqida.

Here is a short audio commentary of Aqida Tahawi.

https://www.zamzamacademy.com/2020/0...hawiyya-audio/

Also there are free Islamic courses, at https://seekersguidance.org/. The good thing about these courses, they are accompanied by Shaykhs who can answer your personal questions.

I hope that helps.

[TheHaqq]

The argument is based on false premises.

So how would you understand Ibn Uthaymeen saying Allah has a face but we do not know if it is round or rectangular if it's not inclining to tajseem?

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

So how would you understand Ibn Uthaymeen saying Allah has a face but we do not know if it is round or rectangular if it's not inclining to tajseem?

How is that inclining to tajseem?

[TheHaqq]

How is that inclining to tajseem?

He is saying that Allah has a face that has a shape, but we don't know the shape.

Allah does not say that in the Quran, so he is likening Allah to his creation because creatures have 3D faces in certain shapes.

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

He is saying that Allah has a face that has a shape, but we don't know the shape.

Allah does not say that in the Quran, so he is likening Allah to his creation because creatures have 3D faces in certain shapes.

Please quote the exact words.

[Abu Sulayman]

He is saying that Allah has a face that has a shape, but we don't know the shape.

Allah does not say that in the Quran, so he is likening Allah to his creation because creatures have 3D faces in certain shapes.

Correct and this is Tajsim in itself and not just an inclination towards it, because he already assumes it to have a form.

This is the written form of the lesson of Ibn 'Uthaymin taken from the website of his followers (it also contains the audio recording):

قال المصنف رحمه الله تعالى : ونؤمن بأن لله تعالى
وجها موصوفا بالجلال و الإكرام << ويبقى وجه ربك ذو الجلال و الإكرام >> [ الرحمن : 27 ] حفظ

الشيخ : كذلك " نؤمن بأن لله تعالى وجها موصوفا بالجلال والإكرام لقوله (( ويبقى وجه ربك ذو الجلال والإكرام )) " وجه الله عز وجل صفة من صفاته لكن هل هو صفة معنوية أو صفة فعلية أو صفة خبرية
الطالب : ... خبرية
الشيخ : طيب نشوف هل هو صفة خبرية أو صفة فعلية أو صفة معنوية
الطالب : ...
الشيخ : الأول
الطالب : الأول

الشيخ : تمام لأن بعض الناس يأخذ بالأخير نعم ويقول الضمير يعود على أقرب مذكور وهذا غلط نقول الوجه صفة خبرية ما هو معنوية ولا فعلية فما هو الضابط في الصفات الخبرية المحضة قال شيخ الإسلام رحمه الله " من صفات الله تعالى ما مسماه أبعاض لنا وأجزاء لنا " الوجه مسماه بالنسبة لنا

الطالب : بعض
الشيخ : أيش
الطالب : بعض
الشيخ : بعض اليد كذلك هذه هي صفات خبرية محضة العقل لا يدركها ولولا أن الله أخبرنا عنها ما علمنا بها وليست معنوية أيضا حتى بعد أن أخبرنا الله بها ما هي معنوية بل هي صفة نظيرها نظير مسماها أيش أجزاء وأبعاض وهذا هو الفرق بيننا وبين قول من يقول المراد بالوجه الثواب قالوا (( ويبقى وجه ربك ذو الجلال والإكرام )) أي ثوابه فحملوا الثواب ما لا يحتمل هل الثواب موصوف بالجلال والإكرام أبدا لا يستحق هذا الوصف إلا وجه الله عز وجل اذن نؤمن بأن لله وجها حقيقيا ولكن لو سئلنا عن كيفيته أمستطيل هو أو مستدير أم مربع أو مدور أو ما أشبه ذلك أيش نقول
الطالب : الله أعلم
الشيخ : نقول الله أعلم ولا يحل لنا أن نتكلم بهذا إطلاقا بل نقول له وجه يليق بجلاله وعظمته نؤمن به لأن الله تعالى أخبرنا عنه ووصف به نفسه ولكننا لا نتعرض لكيفيته لانه لا إحاطة لنا بذلك

- end of quote -


Wallahul musta'an!

[Simply_Logical]

https://www.hubooks.com/Belief/Imam-...Creed-Of-Islam




This is a reliable translation and commentary of Aqida Tahawi by Imam Abu Hafs Siraj al Din al Ghaznawi.

Here is an example:

Imam Tahawi said, "Imaginations cannot grasp Him, and understandings cannot comprehend Him."

Imam al Ghaznawi comments:

Imagination (wahm) is the faculty wherewith one perceives particulars, and understanding (fahm) is the mind's comprehension of universals. Allah Most Hight is not compounded, nor does He have a modality whereby He can be imprinted on the imagination, nor is He delimited whereby the mind can grasp His reality and encompass it. Nay, He is exalted above all of that! Allah Most High said, while none encompasses His knowledge (Quran 20:110). This is so because comprehension 9idrak), which is to encompass something from all of its sides, is only conceivable in the case of what is delimited and finite."

Imam Tahawi said, He does not resemble creatures (anam).

Imam al Ghaznawi comments: It (anam) is anything that has a soul; it has also been said that it is the entire creation; and it has been said that what is meant by anam is man. This latter meaning more probably because he intended by it (his statement) to negate the doctrine of the anthropomorphism (mushabbihah - those who make tashbih) and the corporealists (mujassimah), as they attributed to the Originator a body in the form of a man. He also intended to negate the doctrine of the Christians, as they assigned Him a son and wife. Allah is exalted above that!

Imam al Ghaznawi is Maturidi in Aqida.

Here is a short audio commentary of Aqida Tahawi.

https://www.zamzamacademy.com/2020/0...hawiyya-audio/

Also there are free Islamic courses, at https://seekersguidance.org/. The good thing about these courses, they are accompanied by Shaykhs who can answer your personal questions.

I hope that helps.

thanks jazakAllah khayran is that site authentic and genuine to buy from? never heard of it before tbh

[Simply_Logical]

Correct and this is Tajsim in itself and not just an inclination towards it, because he already assumes it to have a form.

This is the written form of the lesson of Ibn 'Uthaymin taken from the website of his followers (it also contains the audio recording):

قال المصنف رحمه الله تعالى : ونؤمن بأن لله تعالى وجها موصوفا بالجلال و الإكرام << ويبقى وجه ربك ذو الجلال و الإكرام >> [ الرحمن : 27 ] حفظ

الشيخ : كذلك " نؤمن بأن لله تعالى وجها موصوفا بالجلال والإكرام لقوله (( ويبقى وجه ربك ذو الجلال والإكرام )) " وجه الله عز وجل صفة من صفاته لكن هل هو صفة معنوية أو صفة فعلية أو صفة خبرية
الطالب : ... خبرية
الشيخ : طيب نشوف هل هو صفة خبرية أو صفة فعلية أو صفة معنوية
الطالب : ...
الشيخ : الأول
الطالب : الأول

الشيخ : تمام لأن بعض الناس يأخذ بالأخير نعم ويقول الضمير يعود على أقرب مذكور وهذا غلط نقول الوجه صفة خبرية ما هو معنوية ولا فعلية فما هو الضابط في الصفات الخبرية المحضة قال شيخ الإسلام رحمه الله " من صفات الله تعالى ما مسماه أبعاض لنا وأجزاء لنا " الوجه مسماه بالنسبة لنا

الطالب : بعض
الشيخ : أيش
الطالب : بعض
الشيخ : بعض اليد كذلك هذه هي صفات خبرية محضة العقل لا يدركها ولولا أن الله أخبرنا عنها ما علمنا بها وليست معنوية أيضا حتى بعد أن أخبرنا الله بها ما هي معنوية بل هي صفة نظيرها نظير مسماها أيش أجزاء وأبعاض وهذا هو الفرق بيننا وبين قول من يقول المراد بالوجه الثواب قالوا (( ويبقى وجه ربك ذو الجلال والإكرام )) أي ثوابه فحملوا الثواب ما لا يحتمل هل الثواب موصوف بالجلال والإكرام أبدا لا يستحق هذا الوصف إلا وجه الله عز وجل اذن نؤمن بأن لله وجها حقيقيا ولكن لو سئلنا عن كيفيته أمستطيل هو أو مستدير أم مربع أو مدور أو ما أشبه ذلك أيش نقول
الطالب : الله أعلم
الشيخ : نقول الله أعلم ولا يحل لنا أن نتكلم بهذا إطلاقا بل نقول له وجه يليق بجلاله وعظمته نؤمن به لأن الله تعالى أخبرنا عنه ووصف به نفسه ولكننا لا نتعرض لكيفيته لانه لا إحاطة لنا بذلك

- end of quote -


Wallahul musta'an!

is there a english translation i can read of this? thanks jazakAllah khayran

[Simply_Logical]

i'd like to hear the salafi argument for this belief in aqidah in sha Allah

[aMuslimForLife]

thanks jazakAllah khayran is that site authentic and genuine to buy from? never heard of it before tbh

I've bought several books from that site. It is legit.

[Abu Sulayman]

is there a english translation i can read of this? thanks jazakAllah khayran

No, there is no translation (as far as I know).

But this is my translation of the relevant part in question of the statement of Ibn 'Uthaymin:

"We believe that God has a real / literal face. But if we were to be asked regarding its modality [like] whether it's rectangular or circular or square-shaped or round or what is similar to this, how do we respond [then] ?... We respond [by saying] ʼGod knows bestʼ..."
- end of quote -

I think it's quite obvious that a Muslim should not be speaking in this manner regarding the Creator subhanahu wa ta'ala.
Note that the lessons of the above quoted person are filled with these type of mindless statements.

[Simply_Logical]

thanks jazakAllah khayran is that site authentic and genuine to buy from? never heard of it before tbh

I've bought several books from that site. It is legit.

Okay, found the same book on eBay UK might get it from there instead In sha Allah

Thanks brother JazakAllah khayran 💯

[Simply_Logical]

is there a english translation i can read of this? thanks jazakAllah khayran

No, there is no translation (as far as I know).

But this is my translation of the relevant part in question of the statement of Ibn 'Uthaymin:

"We believe that God has a real / literal face. But if we were to be asked regarding its modality [like] whether it's rectangular or circular or square-shaped or round or what is similar to this, how do we respond [then] ?... We respond [by saying] ʼGod knows bestʼ..."
- end of quote -

I think it's quite obvious that a Muslim should not be speaking in this manner regarding the Creator subhanahu wa ta'ala.
Note that the lessons of the above quoted person are filled with these type of mindless statements.

So this anthropomorphism belief in Allah SWT as in face, arm, leg, height length etc etc etc, what is it classed as kufr, haram etc?