Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

[Simply_Logical]

Additionally to the above I would like to repost the statement of Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) in his famous 'Aqida (translation taken from HERE) regarding our belief in the Tawhid of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala:

إن الله واحد لا شريك له، ولا شيء مثله، ولا شيء يعجزه، ولا إله غيره.
قديم بلا ابتداء، دائم بلا انتهاء، لا يفنى ولا يبيد، ولا يكون إلا ما يريد.
لا تبلغه الأوهام، ولا تدركه الأفهام، ولا يشبه الأنام، حي لا يموت، قيوم لا ينام.
خالق بلا حاجة، رازق بلا مؤنة، مميت بلا مخافة، باعث بلا مشقة.
ما زال بصفاته قديما قبل خلقه، لم يزدد بكونهم شيئا لم يكن قبلهم من صفاته، وكما كان بصفاته أزليا كذلك لا يزال عليها أبديا
ليس بعد خلق الخلق استفاد اسم الخالق، ولا بإحداث البرية استفاد اسم الباري.
له معنى الربوبية ولا مربوب، ومعنى الخالقية ولا مخلوق.
وكما أنه محيي الموتى بعدما أحياهم استحق هذا الاسم قبل إحيائهم، كذلك استحق اسم الخالق قبل إنشائهم.
ذلك بأنه على كل شيء قدير، وكل شيء إليه فقير، وكل أمر عليه يسير، لا يحتاج إلى شيء، (ليس كمثله شيء، وهو السميع البصير
خلق الخلق بعلمه، وقدر لهم أقدارا، وضرب لهم آجالا.
لم يخفَ عليه شيء قبل أن يخلقهم، وعلم ما هم عاملون قبل أن يخلقهم، وأمرهم بطاعته، ونهاهم عن معصيته.
وكل شيء يجري بتقديره ومشيئته، ومشيئته تنفذ لا مشيئة للعباد إلا ما شاء لهم، فما شاء لهم كان، وما لم يشأ لم يكن.
يهدي من يشاء، ويعصم ويعافي فضلا، ويضل من يشاء، ويخذل ويبتلي عدلا، وكلهم يتقلبون في مشيئته بين فضله وعدله.
وهو متعال عن الأضداد والأنداد، لا رادَّ لقضائه، ولا معقب لحكمه، ولا غالب لأمره.
آمنا بذلك كله، وأيقنا أن كلا من عنده

1. Allah is One; He has no partner.
2. Nothing is like Him.
3. Nothing can overwhelm Him.
4. There is no god but He.
5. He is Pre-Eternal without a beginning, Perpetual without end.
6. He will never perish and He will never come to an end.
7. Nothing occurs but what He wills.
8. No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can fathom Him.
9. He does not resemble humankind.
10. He is living; He will never die. He is sustaining; He never sleeps.
11. He creates without His being in need to do so. He provides (for His creation) without any effort.
12. He causes death without any fear. He restores to life without any hardship.
13. He has always existed with His attributes even before His creating (the world) -which did not add anything to His attributes that were not already there. As He was Pre-eternal together with His attributes, so is He Perpetual together with them.
14. It was not only after the act of creation that He acquired the (attributive) name ‘the Creator (al-Khaliq)’ nor was it only by the act of origination that He could He acquired the (attributive) name ‘the Originator (al-Bari’)’.
15. He always occupied the quality of Lordship even when there was nothing to be Lord of, and (He always) occupied the quality of being the Creator even when there was no creation.
16. In the same way that He is the ‘Reviver of life to the Dead’, after He has brought them to life the first time, and deserves this name before bringing them to life, so too does He deserve the name of ‘the Creator’ before He has created them.
17. This is because He has the power over all things, all things are dependent on Him and all affairs are easy for Him. He is not in need of anything. ‘Nothing is like Him and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeing’.
18. He created the creation with His knowledge.
19. He organised destinies for them.
20. He allocated fixed life spans to them.
21. None of their activities were hidden from Him before He created them, and He knew everything that they would do before He even created them.
22. He has directed them to obey Him and He has forbidden them to disobey Him.
23. Everything transpires according to His judgement and will, and His will is unequivocally executed. There is no will for the servants but what He wills for them. So, whatever He wills for them occurs, and whatever He does not will does not transpire.
24. He guides whom He wills and He protects and keeps from harm whom He wills, out of (His) grace; and He misguides whom He wills and He disgraces them and afflicts (whom He wills) out of (His) justice.
25. All of them are subject to His will between either His grace or His justice.
26. He is above having opposites or equals.
27. There is none to reverse His decision, there is none to repel His command and there is none to quell His affairs.
28. We believe in all of this and we are certain that everything comes from Him.
- end of quote -

subhanAllah, I do need to read more about aqidah tahawiyyah tbh brother

[Simply_Logical]

Yes, the argument is that modern salafis have fallen into some tajseem without realising, so far no one has countered this argument on this thread.

Just to remind everyone what is meant with Tajsim:

Tajsim is the belief that the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth is a being with height / length, breadth / width and depth.
(High Exalted is Allah ta'ala above such a [dis]belief.)

Whosoever believes this is a Mujassim.

What is the ruling regarding the one who has such a wrong belief:

The scholars of the past mentioned that either Tabdi' or Takfir is performed, which should be enough to understand how dangerous such a belief is.

Whatever the case maybe, if a person openly calls the people in the lands of Islam to such a wrong belief, then he needs to be put in front of an Islamic court.

(As Muslims we believe that the Maker - Praise be to Him - is beyond all of His Creation such that time and place do not apply to him.
The Mujassim however is similar to the atheist and the materialist, because for him only physical things exist and there is nothing beyond them in his lack of understanding.)

Why would someone limit Allah SWT by putting h.into the categories of height length etc? I don't understand, isn't Allah SWT limitless and unimaginable?

Brother what does mujassim.mean exactly?

Thanks JazakAllah khayran 💯

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

It is not an accusation nor is it not an argument...

You're dumb.

:clownface:

[aMuslimForLife]

You're dumb.

:clownface:

Don't squeal, bring daleel.

correction:
It is not an accusation nor is it an argument...

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Don't squeal, bring daleel.

correction:
It is not an accusation nor is it an argument...

I haven't made any claim, dumbo.

You mentioned a couple of things that you were asked to explain several times but have failed to do so because you are dumb.

[Abu Sulayman]

There's a fair few salafis on the forum do I'd be interested to see their side of the story tbf

Many "Salafi" laymen are less deviant regarding the issue of the divine attributes than their so called "scholars". These laymen are actually not completely aware of the views of the people whom they think to be upon the correct way (i.e. similar to Shi'a laymen and their Mashayikh). They have not read their more detailed works and lessons where they argue things that no Muslim would accept.

Just for you to have an idea what I'm intending here:
Ibn 'Uthaymin is regarded as "a major scholar" by the "Salafis" and this very man believes that God is described with a "literal cloak" and a "literal wrapper" (meaning: literal clothing!) and he also says that "we don't know how he put them on". He's also the one who believes that God has a "literal face" - and he really intends it literally! - and that this face has a form such that he thinks that it has a "round form or rectangular one or another form". I don't think many "Salafi" laymen will believe in such nonsense nor are they aware that this is what Ibn 'Uthaymin intends when he says "literal face".
Ibn 'Uthaymin's lessons - which are available on the internet - are filled with such statements and these statements by the way indicate a very high degree of ignorance regarding the language of the Arabs.

subhanAllah, I do need to read more about aqidah tahawiyyah tbh brother

Yes brother, it's a great work.
You can read here in Arabic and here in English.

(Just a note: The "Salafis" print a so called "Sharh" (explanation) upon this work, where the author (i.e. Ibn Ibil 'Izz (d. 792 AH) tries to reject major points made by Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) and this so called "Sharh" (read: distorsion) consists mostly of copy-pasted statements from Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH).)

[Simply_Logical]

There's a fair few salafis on the forum do I'd be interested to see their side of the story tbf

Many "Salafi" laymen are less deviant regarding the issue of the divine attributes than their so called "scholars". These laymen are actually not completely aware of the views of the people whom they think to be upon the correct way (i.e. similar to Shi'a laymen and their Mashayikh). They have not read their more detailed works and lessons where they argue things that no Muslim would accept.

Just for you to have an idea what I'm intending here:
Ibn 'Uthaymin is regarded as "a major scholar" by the "Salafis" and this very man believes that God is described with a "literal cloak" and a "literal wrapper" (meaning: literal clothing!) and he also says that "we don't know how he put them on". He's also the one who believes that God has a "literal face" - and he really intends it literally! - and that this face has a form such that he thinks that it has a "round form or rectangular one or another form". I don't think many "Salafi" laymen will believe in such nonsense nor are they aware that this is what Ibn 'Uthaymin intends when he says "literal face".
Ibn 'Uthaymin's lessons - which are available on the internet - are filled with such statements and these statements by the way indicate a very high degree of ignorance regarding the language of the Arabs.

subhanAllah, I do need to read more about aqidah tahawiyyah tbh brother

Yes brother, it's a great work.
You can read here in Arabic and here in English.

(Just a note: The "Salafis" print a so called "Sharh" (explanation) upon this work, where the author (i.e. Ibn Ibil 'Izz (d. 792 AH) tries to reject major points made by Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) and this so called "Sharh" (read: distorsion) consists mostly of copy-pasted statements from Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH).)

Yea subhanAllah there's more to what meets the eye

So i have a question when did this belief anthropomorphism believe of Allah SWT start do you know? Like a few hundred years ago or more?

I'll have a look at the link when I'm on my pc in sha Allah

Any idea where I can get a physical copy of the book aqidah at tahawiyyah in the UK?

Had a look on eBay UK but seems like it's in arabic

[Abu Sulayman]

Why would someone limit Allah SWT by putting h.into the categories of height length etc? I don't understand, isn't Allah SWT limitless and unimaginable?

Brother what does mujassim.mean exactly?

Thanks JazakAllah khayran 💯

You're right. Allah ta'ala is beyond our imagination and beyond limits and this id agreed upon by the people of the Sunna.

Imam al-Tahawi stated:

وتعالى عن الحدود والغايات، والأركان والأعضاء والأدوات، لا تحويه الجهات الست كسائر المبتدعات

Allah ﷻ is beyond all limits or parameters, or having constituents, limbs or instruments. The six directions do not contain Him, quite unlike all created things.
- end of quote -


As for the Mujassim, then he's the one who believes that God has a size or a volume or you can simply say something with a height, breadth and depth. So the Mujassim believes in corpreal "god". (Whatever is corporeal is specified and therefore a creation and in need of the Creator in reality!)

Imam al-Tahawi stated:

ومن وصف الله بمعنى من معاني البشر فقد كفر، فمن أبصر هذا اعتبر، وعن مثل قول الكفار انزجر، وعلم أنه بصفاته ليس كالبشر

Anyone who attributes to Allah ﷻ something (exclusively) accredited to humans (and the rest of creation) becomes a disbeliever. He who comprehends this will take heed, he will refrain from saying things such as the disbelievers say, and he will recognise that Allah ﷻ, in His attributes, is not like human beings.
- end of quote -

[Abu Sulayman]

Don't Christians also believe in anthropomorphism?

As in i could be wrong but they say they are the children of God too?

Yes, they have also anthropomorphism in their creed and this is how they could come up with the claim that Jesus - peace be upon him - is the "Son of God" and "God the Almighty" and what is similar to this.

The scholars of Islam therefore viewed the antropomorphists in a similar manner as they viewed the Christians and their likes.

I had posted the following regarding this:


Regarding those who claim to worship the Creator, but do not know Him in reality

Imam Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani (d. 852 AH) said in his Fath al-Bari 3/359 (translation taken from HERE):

قال حذاق المتكلمين ما عرف الله من شبهه بخلقه أو أضاف إليه اليد أو أضاف إليه الولد فمعبودهم الذي عبدوه ليس هو الله وإن سموه به

The brilliant kalaam scholars said: "The one that likened Aļļaah to His creation, or ascribed a hand to Him (i.e. in the sense of a part or limb) or a child; what he worships is not Aļļaah, even if he called it Aļļaah."
- end of quote -


Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH) referred to al-Qadhi 'Iyadh (d. 544) in his Sharh upon [Sahih] Muslim 1/199 - 200 by saying:

قوله صلى الله عليه و سلم ( فليكن أول ما تدعوهم إليه عبادة الله فإذا عرفوا الله فأخبرهم إلى آخره ) قال القاضي عياض رحمه الله هذا يدل على أنهم ليسوا بعارفين الله تعالى وهو مذهب حذاق المتكلمين في اليهود والنصارى أنهم غير عارفين الله تعالى وان كانوا يعبدونه ويظهرون معرفته لدلالة السمع عندهم على هذا وان كان العقل لا يمنع أن يعرف الله تعالى من كذب رسولا قال القاضي عياض رحمه الله ما عرف الله تعالى من شبهه وجسمه من اليهود أو اجاز عليه البداء أو أضاف إليه الولد منهم أو أضاف إليه الصاحبة والولد وأجاز الحلول عليه والانتقال والامتزاج من النصارى أو وصفه مما لا يليق به أو أضاف إليه الشريك والمعاند في خلقه من المجوس والثنوية فمعبودهم الذى عبدوه ليس هو الله وان سموه به اذ ليس موصوفا بصفات الاله الواجبة له فاذن ما عرفوا الله سبحانه فتحقق هذه النكتة واعتمد عليها وقد رأيت معناها لمتقدمى أشياخنا

The saying of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) "let the first you call them to be the worship of Aļļaah, then when they know Aļļaah tell them…" etc.

Al-Qaađii ˆIiaađ (رحمه الله) said: "This (i.e. the foregoing statement of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم)) indicates that they (the Christians) do not know Aļļaah, and this is the saying of the brilliant kalaam scholars regarding the jews and the Christians; that they do not know Aļļaah (تعالى) even if they worship Him (i.e. call what they worship by His name) and making it appear as if they know Him, based on what they narrate amongst themselves, even though it is not impossible in the mind’s eye that someone who disbelieves in a messenger does know Aļļaah."
Al-Qaađii ˆIiaađ (رحمه الله) said: The one that likened Aļļaah to His creation, or believed Him to be bodily among the jews and Christians, or believed that He gains knowledge over time, or claimed He has a child, or a female companion and a child, or said he could exist in created things, or move from one place to another, or be mixed with creation, among the Christians or attributed to Him what is not befitting, or associated with Him a partner or opponent in creating among the Magians an dualists; what they worship is not Aļļaah, even if they called it that. This is because it is not attributed with the attributes that are necessarily His. Accordingly, they do not know Aļļaah (سبحانه), so realize this point well, and depend on it, and I have seen this point made by our predecessor shaykhs."
- end of quote -

[Abu Sulayman]

Yea subhanAllah there's more to what meets the eye

So i have a question when did this belief anthropomorphism believe of Allah SWT start do you know? Like a few hundred years ago or more?

I'll have a look at the link when I'm on my pc in sha Allah

Any idea where I can get a physical copy of the book aqidah at tahawiyyah in the UK?

Had a look on eBay UK but seems like it's in arabic

Anthropomorphism started early in Islamic history, but usually had very few followers. Imam Abu Hanifa (d. 150 AH) famously regarded Sulayman bin Muqatil (d. 150 AH) as an anthropomorphist for claiming things like "God is settled upon the throne" (something which Ibn 'Uthaymin by the way also does).

But since the fall of the Khilafa and since the rise of the so called "Salafi Da'wa" it has become stronger than ever before. What is interesting to note is that historically anthropomorphists had only some influence during those times where the Muslims were weak, while in those times where the Muslims were strong they literally became close to extinction.

Regarding a copy of the book in the UK: I'm sorry, but I'm not from the UK. Maybe another brother here will be able to help. aMuslimForLife ?

[Simply_Logical]

Why would someone limit Allah SWT by putting h.into the categories of height length etc? I don't understand, isn't Allah SWT limitless and unimaginable?

Brother what does mujassim.mean exactly?

Thanks JazakAllah khayran 💯

You're right. Allah ta'ala is beyond our imagination and beyond limits and this agreed upon by the people of the Sunna.

Imam al-Tahawi stated:

وتعالى عن الحدود والغايات، والأركان والأعضاء والأدوات، لا تحويه الجهات الست كسائر المبتدعات

Allah ﷻ is beyond all limits or parameters, or having constituents, limbs or instruments. The six directions do not contain Him, quite unlike all created things.
- end of quote -


As for the Mujassim, then he's the one who believes that God has a size or a volume or you can simply say something with a height, breadth and depth. So the Mujassim believes in corpreal "god". (Whatever is corporeal is specified and therefore a creation and in need of the Creator in reality!)

Imam al-Tahawi stated:

ومن وصف الله بمعنى من معاني البشر فقد كفر، فمن أبصر هذا اعتبر، وعن مثل قول الكفار انزجر، وعلم أنه بصفاته ليس كالبشر

Anyone who attributes to Allah ﷻ something (exclusively) accredited to humans (and the rest of creation) becomes a disbeliever. He who comprehends this will take heed, he will refrain from saying things such as the disbelievers say, and he will recognise that Allah ﷻ, in His attributes, is not like human beings.
- end of quote -

So how do 'some' (as you can appreciate not all the salafis are the we) view the beliefs of imam tahawi?

As in those who believe Allah SWT has limbs, height etc etc

[Simply_Logical]

Yea subhanAllah there's more to what meets the eye

So i have a question when did this belief anthropomorphism believe of Allah SWT start do you know? Like a few hundred years ago or more?

I'll have a look at the link when I'm on my pc in sha Allah

Any idea where I can get a physical copy of the book aqidah at tahawiyyah in the UK?

Had a look on eBay UK but seems like it's in arabic

Anthropomorphism started early in Islamic history, but usually had very few followers. Imam Abu Hanifa (d. 150 AH) famously regarded Sulayman bin Muqatil (d. 150 AH) as an anthropomorphist for claiming things like "God is settled upon the throne" (something which Ibn 'Uthaymin by the way also does).

But since the fall of the Khilafa and since the rise of the so called "Salafi Da'wa" it has become stronger than ever before. What is interesting to note is that historically anthropomorphists had only some influence during those times where the Muslims were weak, while in those times where the Muslims were strong they literally became close to extinction.

Regarding a copy of the book in the UK: I'm sorry, but I'm not from the UK. Maybe another brother here will be able to help. aMuslimForLife ?

So just to understand, are you saying it's been on the increase due to the money being backed by Saudi Arabia to push forward that specific belief and methodology?

Well on a side note I've personally experienced a salafi raqi (again not all salafi raqis, so not generalising) instead of asking what issue is whether to determine sihr or any or mass etc etc,
The first thing he asked is 'where is Allah?'
I'm at the time I was like I don't know and then he was like he's above the Arab and Kursi and you need to fix your aqidah and I was just thinking to myself I got your number as I just need help, so instead of forcing your methodology onto me, as a Muslim brother just recite authentic duas adhkar and Qur'an for me

Either way it's an interesting topic tbh

aMuslimForLife where can I get the book from in the UK? Maybe darussalam?

[Abu Sulayman]

As for the Mujassim, then he's the one who believes that God has a size or a volume or you can simply say something with a height, breadth and depth. So the Mujassim believes in corpreal "god". (Whatever is corporeal is specified and therefore a creation and in need of the Creator in reality!)

Imam al-Tahawi stated:

ومن وصف الله بمعنى من معاني البشر فقد كفر، فمن أبصر هذا اعتبر، وعن مثل قول الكفار انزجر، وعلم أنه بصفاته ليس كالبشر

Anyone who attributes to Allah ﷻ something (exclusively) accredited to humans (and the rest of creation) becomes a disbeliever. He who comprehends this will take heed, he will refrain from saying things such as the disbelievers say, and he will recognise that Allah ﷻ, in His attributes, is not like human beings.
- end of quote -

Here is a prime example for OPEN Tajsim:


Pseudo-Salafis say God has a ‘Size’

On the Multaqa Ahl al Hadeeth forum the Salafi shaykh Haitham Hamdan reaffirms the statement of sh Ibn Taymiyyah: ‘That something existing should not be increasing, or decreasing, or neither increasing nor decreasing, and yet exist and not have a size – this is impossible‘ (Bayan Talbis Al-Jahmiyyah, 3/146)


Question from Abu Fadl:

How do Salafi’s view the statement of Ibn Taymiyyah:
فأما كون الشيء غير موصوف بالزيادة والنقصان ولا بعدم ذلك وهو موجود وليس بذي قدر فهذا لا يعقل (Talbîs al-Jahmiyyah)
It seems he find it impossible that a being (whether necessary or possible) could exist without having a size. If this interpretation is wrong, what is the Salafi interpretation?

Salafi shaykh Haitham Hamdan the Administrator says:

Yes this is what this great scholar is saying. And “Salafis” agree with him.
It is impossible for a creature to be present outside the human mind (not to be a mere mental being); and not have a size.
A mere mental being does not have a size or place. Example: numbers. They are mere mental beings with no existence outside the human mind. It is OK for them not to have a size.

- end of quote -

[Simply_Logical]

@Abu Sulayman on a side note are you a Sufi?

p.s forgot to ask on my last post

[Abu Sulayman]

So just to understand, are you saying it's been on the increase due to the money being backed by Saudi Arabia to push forward that specific belief and methodology?

Yes, the Saudi backing played a major role, but also the general rise of materialism in the whole world and the widespread ignorance regarding the religion of Allah ta'ala.

Well on a side note I've personally experienced a salafi raqi (again not all salafi raqis, so not generalising) instead of asking what issue is whether to determine sihr or any or mass etc etc,
The first thing he asked is 'where is Allah?'
I'm at the time I was like I don't know and then he was like he's above the Arab and Kursi and you need to fix your aqidah and I was just thinking to myself I got your number as I just need help, so instead of forcing your methodology onto me, as a Muslim brother just recite authentic duas adhkar and Qur'an for me

Either way it's an interesting topic tbh

Unfortunately many "Salafis" are not able to differentiate between what is important and what not. May Allah ta'ala guide us and them.

They think that since the question is mentioned in one narration in a completely different context it justifies them going around and "testing the faith of Muslims" through this question.
If you go and see the actual narration and that there is more than one version of it - some of which are stronger than the above version - and that the person asked was most likely either a non-Arab or deaf and that the actual question may even been not in this wording and that in the Arabic language "Ayna" (where) isn't just asked for location (Makan), but also for rank / station (Makana), then it becomes clear that going around and asking everyone this question is not from the Sunna, nor have the Muslims of the past done so.

As for the Highness of Allah ta'ala: Then as Muslims we believe in an absolute Highness and not a physical or sensory one, because we believe that the Creator is beyond space in the very first place. So our statement "He's upon the throne" is not a affirmation of place or location, but rather in order to declare Him transcendent from place!

This is why Imam Abu Sulayman al-Khattabi (d. 388 AH) said in his A'lam al-Hadith (p. 1474):

وليس معنى قول المسلمين: إن الله على العرش، هو أنه تعالى مماس له أو متمكن فيه. أو متحيز في جهة من جهاته، لكنه بائن من جميع خلقه

The meaning of the statement of the Muslims that Allāh is over the throne is not that He is touching it or settled on it or bounded by one of its directions, but that He is beyond all His creation.
- end of quote -

@Abu Sulayman on a side note are you a Sufi?

p.s forgot to ask on my last post

I'm not part of any Tariqa, so the answer is no.
But I obviously respect Tasawwuf as a science and as part of Islam and I respect the real Sufiyya like Imam al-Junayd (d. 298 AH). In our time there are also a lot of weird cultist Sufis (this existed also in the past), but this does not mean that Tasawwuf in itself is wrong.

I regard the four Madhahib as representative of the correct jurisprudence and the Ash'aris, Maturidis and traditional Hanabila as representative of the correct creed in accordance with the Sunna.