Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Translate what exactly?

These terms:

..."The Hand of Allah" ...

..."The eye of Allah"...

[aMuslimForLife]

This thread is about how Mainstream Hanbalis (Athari-Hanbalis) differ with modern Salafis in matters of Aqida both claim to be the inheritors of the creed of Salafus Saleh.

Understanding where Salafis and Hanbalis differ:

Salafis actively affirm Tashbih for Allah and His Attributes

Salafis trace their creed back to Ibn Taymiyyah. Ibn Taymiyyah and the late-Salafi scholar Ibn Uthaymeen teach that the correct creed is to affirm the dhahir that entails tashbih (a degree similarity or resemblance Allah and His creation).

Ibn Uthaymeen said, “To negate Tashbih (resemblance) in its entirety is not correct, because there are no two things among entities or attributes, except that they share something together between them. This commonality is a type of resemblance. If you, therefore, negate Tashbih absolutely, you are (by that) negating everything wherein there is a form of resemblance between the Creator and the creature. For example, existence: Both the Creator and the creature primarily share this together.” (Ibn Uthaymeen -Sharh Aqida Wasatiyyah)

Ibn Taymiyyah said, "One may say that there must be a guideline in this area by which it can be known what is permissible for Allah and impermissible for Him in affirmation and negation. Relying upon mere negation of resemblance (tashbih) or an unrestricted affirmation without resemblance is unsound. That is because there are no two things except that they have a shared portion (qadr mushtarak) between them as well as that which sets them apart." [Risala al Tadmuriyya li Ibn Taymiyyah]

Hanbalis oppose tashbih and make tafwid

Mainstream Hanbalis trace their creed back to Ibn Qudamah.

Ibn Qudamah said, "Everything that has come in the Quran and that is authentically narrated from al Mustafa concerning the Attributes of al Rahman; it is obligatory to have faith in it and receive it with submission and total acceptance. We must abandon opposing it with rejection (al radd), false interpretation (Tawil), similarity (tashbih) and likening (tamthil). As for what appears unclear, then we are obligated to affirm the wording and abandoning seeking its meaning." (Lumat al Itiqad)

Imam Ahmad said, "We believe in it, attest to it, without how and without meaning." Ibn Qudamah presents this quote from Imam Ahmad as a proof.

Ibn Qudamah clearly negates tashbih, while Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Uthaymeen actively affirm Tashbih. I say actively affirm tashbih, because there is a difference between being accused of tashbih and actively affirming it. Salafis actively affirm tashbih.

Tashbih is NOT the Creed of the Salaf


Imam Tahawi said, “Imaginations cannot attain Him; comprehensions cannot perceive Him. Creatures do not bear any similarity (tashbih) to Him.” (Aqida Tahawi)

Nuaym b Hammad, the Shaykh of Al Bukhari, may Allah have mercy upon them said, "Whoever draws a resemblance between Allah and His creation has disbelieved, and whosoever denies what Allah has described Himself with has also disbelieved - there is no similarity (tashbih) or likeness (tamthil) in that with which Allah or His Messenger have described Him." [Sharh Risala al Tadmuriyya]

"Ibn Wahb says, I heard Malik say, "Whoever recites "The Hand of Allah" (3:73)(5:64)(48:10)(57:29) and indicates his hand or recites "The eye of Allah" (20:39)(11:37)(23:27)(52:48)(54:14) and indicates that organ of his: let it be cut off to disciple him over Divine Sacredness and Transcendence above what he has compared Him to, and above his own comparison to Him. Both his life and the limb he compared to Allah are cut off." (Ibn al Arabi al Maliki, Ahkam al Quran)

Imam Ahmad said, "Whoever moves his hand while reciting the verse, "I created with both My Hands" (38:75) or gestures with his fingers when narrating the hadith, "The heart of the believer is between two fingers of the Merciful," cut their hands or fingers off!" (Al Shahrastani, Al Milal Wal Nihal)

Ishaaq ibn Ibraheem ar-Raahawaih said: tashbih is when one says, "Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand", or it is said: "Hearing like my Hearing, or similar to my hearing", then this is tashbih. But if what is being said is what Allah has said: Hand, Hearing, Seeing and it is not asked how, nor does he say: "Like my hearing, or similar to my hearing" - then it is not tashbih. Allaah, the Most Blessed, Most High, said in His Book (ash-Shooraa 42:11): There is none like unto Him, and he is the all-Hearing, the all-Seeing

Compare that with Ibn Uthaymeen statement when he said, I said, " If you say, 'What is the image of Allah in which Adam is created?' We reply, "Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, has a Face, an Eye, Hand and Foot, the Mighty and Sublime, but it is not imperative that these be like that of humans. While there is a form of similarity (al Shabih - tashbih), but it is not likening (Mumathala), as there is a similarity between the first group to enter Paradise and the moon but without being the same." (Ibn Uthaymeen -Sharh Aqida Wasatiyyah)

Ask a Salafi this, how is tashbih the creed of the Salaf?

How?

Ask them to quote a single scholar from the Salaf, actively affirming tashbih, in the way that Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Taymiyyah have. And they won't be able to do it. They will give you a philosophical answer as to why tashbih is the creed of the Salaf. No solid proof.

After they give you this philosophical answer, ask them, how can you be Athari, when you cannot provide a single Athar from the Salaf proving tashbih?

One of their arguments is. We can't negate Tashbih completely, because that is what Asharis do and their creed is based on ilm al Kalam.

If you say, there are Hanbalis who negated tashbih, they will argue that these Hanbalis were influenced by Asharis or forced by Ashari authorities to change their creed.

This baseless argument is refuted by the fact that Ibn Qudamah actively opposed the Asharis, and at the same time, negated tashbih for Allah. Actively said not to delve into the meanings. And quotes Imam Ahmad"We believe in it, attest to it, without how and without meaning."

Ask them to provide an authentic narration from Imam Ahmad actively affirming tashbih.


And Allah knows best.

[aMuslimForLife]

These terms:

I didn't I just cut and pasted it.

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

I didn't I just cut and pasted it.

From where?

You obviously endorse the translations so any explanation?

[Muhammad Hasan]

These terms:

Abu 'Abdullaah, what do you say they mean? What is their definition? What is the definition of a "Hand" (Yadd)?

Just interested in your answer.

[aMuslimForLife]

From where?

You obviously endorse the translations so any explanation?

The quote didn't come with an explanation. The quote was actually an explanation.

[aMuslimForLife]

Abu 'Abdullaah, what do you say they mean? What is their definition? What is the definition of a "Hand" (Yadd)?

Just interested in your answer.

He will never define nor explain anything. But he expects you to explain and define things.

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

The quote didn't come with an explanation. The quote was actually an explanation.

Where did you copy it from?

So you don't actually know what the terms mean?

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

He will never define nor explain anything. But he expects you to explain and define things.

You can ask me to explain things I've posted.

[Muhammad Hasan]

aMuslimForLife, you might not know, but it is as if Abu 'Abdullaah does.

So why doesn't he inform us? What is the "Hand of Allah" (some translate that from the Arabic Yadullah)? What is a "Hand" (some translate that from the Arabic Yadd)?

[aMuslimForLife]

Where did you copy it from?

So you don't actually know what the terms mean?

That's a possibility, as they say, the possibilities are endless.

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

That's a possibility, as they say, the possibilities are endless.

It's a possibility that you don't know? You seemed quite sure of yourself by posting challenges but you don't even know your own position.

[aMuslimForLife]

It's a possibility that you don't know? You seemed quite sure of yourself by posting challenges but you don't even know your own position.

Right now I am in the sitting position, that I know for certain.

[Abu 'Abdullaah]

Right now I am in the sitting position, that I know for certain.

:clownface:

[Muhammad Hasan]

:clownface:

You know I think you're a good person on the inside, you always want to make people smile. Forgotten Sunnah in this dreary age.

That said it is best not to do that whilst putting down your brother. Also we shouldn't laugh too much. It harms the heart.

And why doesn't the forum support Emoji Shortcodes? It should, but then again sometimes I feel I prefer it this way.

---

It was narrated from Abu Hurairah that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

“Do not laugh a lot, for laughing a lot deadens the heart.”

- Sunan Ibn Majah 4193; Kitab al-Zuhd