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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    Imam al Safarini al Hanbali said, “Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah consists of three groups, the Atharis, their Imam is Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, the Asharis, their Imam is Abu al Hasan al Ashari and the Maturidis and their Imam is Abu al Mansur al Maturidi.” (Lawami al Anwats al Bahiyya)

    Imam Ibn al Shatti al Hanbali said, “Some scholars say that they, the saved group are the People of Hadith, in other words, the Atharis, Asharis and Maturidis.” (Tabsir Al Qani fi al Jami)

    Imam al Mawahibi al Hanbali said, “The factions of Ahlus Sunnah are three: The Asharis, the Hanbalis and the Maturidis. “ *(Al Ayn wa Athar)

    Comments:

    Allah says, “And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you – when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers.” (3:103)


    Ahlus Sunnah Wa Jamaah has reached a point where we are united. There was a time when Asharis and Mautridis opposed each other, now were see each other as Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah. There was a time when the Asharis and Athari-Hanbalis opposed each other, now we see each other as Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah. Allah has commanded us to hold onto one rope as one Jamaah, yet we have people who call themselves Muslims who want to divide us, this is but the work of Shaytaan.

    It is Allah alone who grants us success. Ameen.
    Indeed!
    There is a reason why a leading scholar like the 'Allama al-Sawi (d. 1241 AH) regarded these Najdis as the group of [the accursed] satan!
    ("Salafis" made sure to delete this very statement when printing his work thereby proving his statement to be true even further! )

    They and their modern versions are simply evil. Why else are they doing all this?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

      Please brother don't quote this specific user. He was filling the thread with his off-topic posts and even went as far as affirming a size for the being he worships.
      ​​​
      Regarding Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) and his position regarding the divine speech:
      His position regarding it is nearer to the Ash'aris than to the modern "Salafis", because he declared that the actual speech of Allah ta'ala is transcendent from Ta'aqub (following of each other) of words and letters and that His speech is eternal and not emergent or new, while these "Salafis" believe in Ta'aqub and the divine speech being emergent and not eternal (the only thing eternal for them is "God's power to speak").

      It's quite dishonest for the "Salafis" to be quoting him in order to attack Ash'aris, because he would have ooposed them even stronger if they would have existed in his time.

      With the above being said: His harshness in answering the Ash'aris was wrong and the same is true for the harshness of some Ash'aris towards the Hanabila.
      ​​​​
      ​​​​​
      What is like to question is how people can label other misguided or innovators so easily, it's fair enough to disagree.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

        Please brother don't quote this specific user. He was filling the thread with his off-topic posts and even went as far as affirming a size for the being he worships.
        ​​​
        Regarding Imam Ibn Qudama (d. 620 AH) and his position regarding the divine speech:
        His position regarding it is nearer to the Ash'aris than to the modern "Salafis", because he declared that the actual speech of Allah ta'ala is transcendent from Ta'aqub (following of each other) of words and letters and that His speech is eternal and not emergent or new, while these "Salafis" believe in Ta'aqub and the divine speech being emergent and not eternal (the only thing eternal for them is "God's power to speak").

        It's quite dishonest for the "Salafis" to be quoting him in order to attack Ash'aris, because he would have ooposed them even stronger if they would have existed in his time.

        With the above being said: His harshness in answering the Ash'aris was wrong and the same is true for the harshness of some Ash'aris towards the Hanabila.
        ​​​​
        ​​​​​

        The saying of Wahb bin Jareer (d. 206), from the leading Scholars of Basrah, as reported by adh-Dhahabi in "Mukhtasar al-Uluww" (p. 170):

        Muhammad bin Hammaad said: I heard Wahb bin Jareer saying: "Beware of the opinion of Jahm, for they are trying (to say) that there is nothing above the Heaven, and this is nothing but the inspiration of Iblees, it is nothing but kufr".

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

          Please brother don't quote this specific user. He was filling the thread with his off-topic posts and even went as far as affirming a size for the being he worships.
          ​​
          ​​​​​
          None of your business if he quotes me. He can think for himself. You described your God with non-existance. Go ask a 1000 people and i bet they will declare you a fool.


          They have made not a just estimate of Allaah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand. Glorified is He, and High is He above all that they associate as partners with Him! (Az-Zumar 39:67)



          And what is reported in the authentic ahaadeeth regarding this verse which are found in two Saheehs and also what is reported from the Salaf and from Ibn Abbas in particular, regarding this verse:

          "The seven heavens and the seven earths and whatever is within them and between them are not in the Hand of ar-Rahman except like a mustard seed in the hand of one of you."



          That Allaah is greater and mightier and greater than everything, and that the universe compared to Allaah is extremely small.
          Last edited by maturidee; 10-01-21, 04:41 AM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

            What is like to question is how people can label other misguided or innovators so easily, it's fair enough to disagree.
            Al-Imām Al-Harawi stated in his book, Dhamm Al-Kalām (the Dispraise of Theological Rhetoric): I heard Ahmad Ibn Nasr Al-Mālīni (d. 412H) saying: “I entered the ‘Amr Ibn Al-‘Ās Congregational Mosque in Egypt with a group of my companions. Once we had sat down, a shaikh came along and said: ‘You are from the people of Khurasān and you are Ahlus-Sunnah and this is the place of the Ash’ariyyah so get up [and leave from here].'” So this shaikh advised them to leave this place that is known for the innovations of the Ash’ariyyah.

            Imam Adh-Dhahabi stated in his work, Siyar A’lām An-Nubalā, that Ibn Fawrak who was an imām of the Ash’ariyyah entered upon the ruler Mahmūd Ibn Sabkatkīn (d. 421H) and said to him: “It is not allowed to describe Allah as being above (fawqiyyah) because that would necessitate describing Him [also] with being below…” So the ruler said: “It is not me who described Allah [with being above] such that I am necessitated [by your assertion]. Rather, it is He (Allah) who has described Himself [with being above].” So, Ibn Fawrak was dumbfounded, unable to respond. And when he left the ruler, he died. It was said that his gall-bladder split apart. (17/487)

            Elsewhere, Ibn Abdul-Barr stated in At-Tamheed (7/129): “In this is a proof that Allah (the Mighty and Majestic) is above the sky, over the Throne, above the Seven Heavens as the Jamā’ah has stated. And this is their proof against the Mu’tazilah and the Jahmiyyah who say: ‘Indeed Allah is everywhere! And He is not over the Throne.’ The evidence for the correctness of what is stated by Ahlul-Haqq (the people of Truth) is the saying of Allah: ‘The Most Merciful ascended over the Throne.’ (Tāhā: 5) and His saying: ‘Then He ascended over the Throne. You have no protector besides Him nor any intercessor.’ (As-Sajdah: 4)

            So, it is Ahlul-Kalām, the Mu’tazilah, the Ash’ariyyah and other than them, those who deny the Highness of Allah above the Seven Heavens, over His Throne by engaging in theological rhetoric, Greek logic, argumentation and philosophical reasoning. They expose the Muslims to these innovated and heretical sciences that cause doubts regarding the ‘Aqeedah, the Names and Attributes, and the Highness of Allah above His creation.

            Comment


            • assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

              so i want to read from the start of this thread as it seems interesting but to be honest somethings will just fly over my head due to ignorance and a lack of knowledge on my part,
              so whats a brief summary of this thread in a nutshell if someone can break it down for me? thanks jazakAllah khayran

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post
                assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

                so i want to read from the start of this thread as it seems interesting but to be honest somethings will just fly over my head due to ignorance and a lack of knowledge on my part,
                so whats a brief summary of this thread in a nutshell if someone can break it down for me? thanks jazakAllah khayran
                The claim is that the "mainstream" or "traditional" scholars from the Hanbali Madhhab did not hold the exact same Aqeedah as modern Salafis (neither in terms of language nor implications) who are followers of Ibn Taymiyyah(ra) and Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab. This is essentially true on some level and I (rather poorly in all honesty) attempted to explain that the difference is partially semantics and as a result of Ilm al-Kalam. The Hanbali scholars themselves were also not a monolith who agreed with each other on the details of every issue (which is recognized by both Muslim and orientalist scholars).

                If I could reverse the hands of time I would have refrained from participating in this thread, especially given how many hits it has received. This is a topic that shouldn't even be exposed to an English lay-audience seeing that nobody is able to fact check in Arabic and the Muslim Du'at (neither Sufi nor Salafi) do not have videos addressing it.

                WaAllahu Alam

                Comment


                • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                  Al-Imām Al-Harawi stated in his book, Dhamm Al-Kalām (the Dispraise of Theological Rhetoric): I heard Ahmad Ibn Nasr Al-Mālīni (d. 412H) saying: “I entered the ‘Amr Ibn Al-‘Ās Congregational Mosque in Egypt with a group of my companions. Once we had sat down, a shaikh came along and said: ‘You are from the people of Khurasān and you are Ahlus-Sunnah and this is the place of the Ash’ariyyah so get up [and leave from here].'” So this shaikh advised them to leave this place that is known for the innovations of the Ash’ariyyah.

                  Imam Adh-Dhahabi stated in his work, Siyar A’lām An-Nubalā, that Ibn Fawrak who was an imām of the Ash’ariyyah entered upon the ruler Mahmūd Ibn Sabkatkīn (d. 421H) and said to him: “It is not allowed to describe Allah as being above (fawqiyyah) because that would necessitate describing Him [also] with being below…” So the ruler said: “It is not me who described Allah [with being above] such that I am necessitated [by your assertion]. Rather, it is He (Allah) who has described Himself [with being above].” So, Ibn Fawrak was dumbfounded, unable to respond. And when he left the ruler, he died. It was said that his gall-bladder split apart. (17/487)

                  Elsewhere, Ibn Abdul-Barr stated in At-Tamheed (7/129): “In this is a proof that Allah (the Mighty and Majestic) is above the sky, over the Throne, above the Seven Heavens as the Jamā’ah has stated. And this is their proof against the Mu’tazilah and the Jahmiyyah who say: ‘Indeed Allah is everywhere! And He is not over the Throne.’ The evidence for the correctness of what is stated by Ahlul-Haqq (the people of Truth) is the saying of Allah: ‘The Most Merciful ascended over the Throne.’ (Tāhā: 5) and His saying: ‘Then He ascended over the Throne. You have no protector besides Him nor any intercessor.’ (As-Sajdah: 4)

                  So, it is Ahlul-Kalām, the Mu’tazilah, the Ash’ariyyah and other than them, those who deny the Highness of Allah above the Seven Heavens, over His Throne by engaging in theological rhetoric, Greek logic, argumentation and philosophical reasoning. They expose the Muslims to these innovated and heretical sciences that cause doubts regarding the ‘Aqeedah, the Names and Attributes, and the Highness of Allah above His creation.
                  This is a terrible explanation as to why they are misguided.

                  "My scholars say they are misguided so they are"

                  "They are influenced by greek philosophy"

                  Just stay in your bubble.

                  Comment


                  • And it was said to Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal, "So and so says that when Allaah created the letters, they all prostrated except the Alif, which said, 'I shall not prostrate until I am commanded'." He replied, "This is disbelief."

                    So he showed rejection against the one who said letters are created, because if the genus of letters are created it is necessary that the Arabic
                    Qur'aan and the Hebrew Tawraat and other than them are created.

                    Alsof it is related from him (Ahmad bin Hanbal) that he said, "
                    Whoever said a letter from the letters of the alphabet is created then he is a Jahmite because he has traversed a path towards innovation, and whoever said that (the letter) is created then he has said that the Qur'aan is created."

                    And Ahmad as well as others from the Imaams have explicitly stated that Allaah has never ceased speaking when He wills and He made it clear that Allaah speaks with His will.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post
                      assalaamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu

                      so i want to read from the start of this thread as it seems interesting but to be honest somethings will just fly over my head due to ignorance and a lack of knowledge on my part,
                      so whats a brief summary of this thread in a nutshell if someone can break it down for me? thanks jazakAllah khayran
                      This thread is about how Mainstream Hanbalis (Athari-Hanbalis) differ with modern Salafis in matters of Aqida both claim to be the inheritors of the creed of Salafus Saleh.

                      Understanding where Salafis and Hanbalis differ:

                      Salafis actively affirm Tashbih for Allah and His Attributes


                      Salafis trace their creed back to Ibn Taymiyyah. Ibn Taymiyyah and the late-Salafi scholar Ibn Uthaymeen teach that the correct creed is to affirm the dhahir that entails tashbih (a degree similarity or resemblance Allah and His creation).

                      Ibn Uthaymeen said, “To negate Tashbih (resemblance) in its entirety is not correct, because there are no two things among entities or attributes, except that they share something together between them. This commonality is a type of resemblance. If you, therefore, negate Tashbih absolutely, you are (by that) negating everything wherein there is a form of resemblance between the Creator and the creature. For example, existence: Both the Creator and the creature primarily share this together.” (Ibn Uthaymeen -Sharh Aqida Wasatiyyah)

                      Ibn Taymiyyah said, "One may say that there must be a guideline in this area by which it can be known what is permissible for Allah and impermissible for Him in affirmation and negation. Relying upon mere negation of resemblance (tashbih) or an unrestricted affirmation without resemblance is unsound. That is because there are no two things except that they have a shared portion (qadr mushtarak) between them as well as that which sets them apart." [Risala al Tadmuriyya li Ibn Taymiyyah]

                      Hanbalis oppose tashbih and make tafwid

                      Mainstream Hanbalis trace their creed back to Ibn Qudamah.

                      Ibn Qudamah said, "Everything that has come in the Quran and that is authentically narrated from al Mustafa concerning the Attributes of al Rahman; it is obligatory to have faith in it and receive it with submission and total acceptance. We must abandon opposing it with rejection (al radd), false interpretation (Tawil), similarity (tashbih) and likening (tamthil). As for what appears unclear, then we are obligated to affirm the wording and abandoning seeking its meaning." (Lumat al Itiqad)

                      Imam Ahmad said, "We believe in it, attest to it, without how and without meaning." Ibn Qudamah presents this quote from Imam Ahmad as a proof.

                      Ibn Qudamah clearly negates tashbih, while Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Uthaymeen actively affirm Tashbih. I say actively affirm tashbih, because there is a difference between being accused of tashbih and actively affirming it. Salafis actively affirm tashbih.

                      Tashbih is NOT the Creed of the Salaf


                      Imam Tahawi said, “Imaginations cannot attain Him; comprehensions cannot perceive Him. Creatures do not bear any similarity (tashbih) to Him.” (Aqida Tahawi)

                      Nuaym b Hammad, the Shaykh of Al Bukhari, may Allah have mercy upon them said, "Whoever draws a resemblance between Allah and His creation has disbelieved, and whosoever denies what Allah has described Himself with has also disbelieved - there is no similarity (tashbih) or likeness (tamthil) in that with which Allah or His Messenger have described Him." [Sharh Risala al Tadmuriyya]

                      "Ibn Wahb says, I heard Malik say, "Whoever recites "The Hand of Allah" (3:73)(5:64)(48:10)(57:29) and indicates his hand or recites "The eye of Allah" (20:39)(11:37)(23:27)(52:48)(54:14) and indicates that organ of his: let it be cut off to disciple him over Divine Sacredness and Transcendence above what he has compared Him to, and above his own comparison to Him. Both his life and the limb he compared to Allah are cut off." (Ibn al Arabi al Maliki, Ahkam al Quran)

                      Imam Ahmad said, "Whoever moves his hand while reciting the verse, "I created with both My Hands" (38:75) or gestures with his fingers when narrating the hadith, "The heart of the believer is between two fingers of the Merciful," cut their hands or fingers off!" (Al Shahrastani, Al Milal Wal Nihal)

                      Ishaaq ibn Ibraheem ar-Raahawaih said: tashbih is when one says, "Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand", or it is said: "Hearing like my Hearing, or similar to my hearing", then this is tashbih. But if what is being said is what Allah has said: Hand, Hearing, Seeing and it is not asked how, nor does he say: "Like my hearing, or similar to my hearing" - then it is not tashbih. Allaah, the Most Blessed, Most High, said in His Book (ash-Shooraa 42:11): There is none like unto Him, and he is the all-Hearing, the all-Seeing

                      Compare that with Ibn Uthaymeen statement
                      when he said, I said, " If you say, 'What is the image of Allah in which Adam is created?' We reply, "Allah, the Mighty and Sublime, has a Face, an Eye, Hand and Foot, the Mighty and Sublime, but it is not imperative that these be like that of humans. While there is a form of similarity (al Shabih - tashbih), but it is not likening (Mumathala), as there is a similarity between the first group to enter Paradise and the moon but without being the same." (Ibn Uthaymeen -Sharh Aqida Wasatiyyah)

                      Ask a Salafi this, how is tashbih the creed of the Salaf?

                      How?

                      Ask them to quote a single scholar from the Salaf, actively affirming tashbih, in the way that Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Taymiyyah have. And they won't be able to do it. They will give you a philosophical answer as to why tashbih is the creed of the Salaf. No solid proof.

                      After they give you this philosophical answer, ask them, how can you be Athari, when you cannot provide a single Athar from the Salaf proving tashbih?


                      One of their arguments is. We can't negate Tashbih completely, because that is what Asharis do and their creed is based on ilm al Kalam.

                      If you say, there are Hanbalis who negated tashbih, they will argue that these Hanbalis were influenced by Asharis or forced by Ashari authorities to change their creed.

                      This baseless argument is refuted by the fact that Ibn Qudamah actively opposed the Asharis, and at the same time, negated tashbih for Allah. Actively said not to delve into the meanings. And quotes Imam Ahmad
                      "We believe in it, attest to it, without how and without meaning."

                      Ask them to provide an authentic narration from Imam Ahmad actively affirming tashbih.


                      And Allah knows best.
                      Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 10-01-21, 04:03 PM.
                      My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
                        ..."The Hand of Allah" ...

                        ..."The eye of Allah"...
                        What do those terms mean? Why did you translate them as hand and eye?

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                          What do those terms mean? Why did you translate them as hand and eye?
                          What do you say they mean?

                          E.g. explain what "Hand of Allah" (Yaddullah) means. I'd like an informative definition, no beating around the bush.

                          Also what is the meaning/definition of the word Hand (Yadd)?
                          Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 10-01-21, 08:03 PM.
                          Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                          "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                          Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                          Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                          1/116

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                            What do those terms mean? Why did you translate them as hand and eye?
                            Why not translate them?
                            My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                              Why not translate them?
                              Why did you translate them like that, and what do they mean?

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abu 'Abdullaah View Post

                                Why did you translate them like that, and what do they mean?
                                Translate what exactly?
                                My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                                Comment

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