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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
    Asharis say, "Allah's Speech is an Attribute, which has no beginning nor end, uncreated".
    So from this what you have described the verse where in Allaah said to Musaa (as): "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." then this command of Allaah is per ashaari creed a ibaarah/expression (i.e. the created Kalaam Lafdhi) of the Speech of Allaah (i.e. the uncreated Kalaam Nafsi).

    Now this means the uncreated Kalaam Nafsi form of the above command i.e. the created expression that "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." was always with Allaah.

    So when there was no Musaa (as) in existance, Allaah had that command to Musaa in His Kalaam Nafsi as a meaning. Then at the time of revealing, that meaning was created into the expression of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..."

    Do you understand this? I think i cant be clearer in making my point clear.

    So the question stands about the command that was present in the uncreated Kalaam Nafsi as a meaning, without that someone was present to be commanded with that uncreated meaning i.e. Musaa (as) is not eternal, but the Kalaam Nafsi form of the expression of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." is.

    So who was adressed if there was no Musaa (as) ?

    Im really dissapointed in you guys.







    Comment


    • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
      So from this what you have described the verse where in Allaah said to Musaa (as): "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." then this command of Allaah is per ashaari creed a ibaarah/expression (i.e. the created Kalaam Lafdhi) of the Speech of Allaah (i.e. the uncreated Kalaam Nafsi).

      Now this means the uncreated Kalaam Nafsi form of the above command i.e. the created expression that "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." was always with Allaah.

      So when there was no Musaa (as) in existance, Allaah had that command to Musaa in His Kalaam Nafsi as a meaning. Then at the time of revealing, that meaning was created into the expression of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..."

      Do you understand this? I think i cant be clearer in making my point clear.

      So the question stands about the command that was present in the uncreated Kalaam Nafsi as a meaning, without that someone was present to be commanded with that uncreated meaning i.e. Musaa (as) is not eternal, but the Kalaam Nafsi form of the expression of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." is.

      So who was adressed if there was no Musaa (as) ?

      Im really dissapointed in you guys.
      I already wrote a detail explanation of how I understand Allah’s Speech. I don’t know how to make it any clearer. Perhaps you can explain how you understand Allah’s Speech, and how Allah Spoke to Musa?

      Perhaps in understanding your perspective I’ll be able to explain it clearer to you.
      My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

      Comment


      • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
        So from this what you have described the verse where in Allaah said to Musaa (as): "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." then this command of Allaah is per ashaari creed a ibaarah/expression (i.e. the created Kalaam Lafdhi) of the Speech of Allaah (i.e. the uncreated Kalaam Nafsi).

        Now this means the uncreated Kalaam Nafsi form of the above command i.e. the created expression that "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." was always with Allaah.

        So when there was no Musaa (as) in existance, Allaah had that command to Musaa in His Kalaam Nafsi as a meaning. Then at the time of revealing, that meaning was created into the expression of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..."

        Do you understand this? I think i cant be clearer in making my point clear.

        So the question stands about the command that was present in the uncreated Kalaam Nafsi as a meaning, without that someone was present to be commanded with that uncreated meaning i.e. Musaa (as) is not eternal, but the Kalaam Nafsi form of the expression of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." is.

        So who was adressed if there was no Musaa (as) ?

        Im really dissapointed in you guys.
        Allah, who is outside of time, addressed Musa who is in a certain time.

        Musa gained perception and gained knowledge at a point in time.

        Moreover, the verse you brought and the point you made in the following excerpt:

        Originally posted by maturidee View Post

        QUESTION 1:

        Do you believe all humans that Allaah has adressed in the Qur'aan such as Musa (as) and the people in the above two verses that they were existing in pre-eternity so that they could be adressed by Allaah. So a non-existing Musa was adressed in eternity by Allaah ?



        Another verse to make my point clear:
        لَقَدْ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذْ يُبَايِعُونَكَ تَحْتَ الشَّجَرَةِ
        Indeed, Allaah was pleased with the believers when they gave their pledge to you (O Muhammad) under the tree. (Al-Fath 48:18)




        Again Allaah was pleased with the believers when they were pledging allegiance to the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) and this instance of being pleased was as they were giving the pledge of allegiance and it could not have existed from eternity.
        Is something that no person who knows other verses of the Qur'an well or knows Arabic well would make. We decribe Allah's action as timeless, just as he is, without beginning. As for what it is applied to, it has a beginning. So it is correct to say "Allah created the Heavens" for the Heavens have a beginning. It is also correct to say "Allah was pleased with the believers" for his action and attribute of Radiya is applied to the creation at a certain time.

        He said1, “Enter with the communities of unseen beings2 and humans who have gone into the Fire before you.” Every time a community entered, it cursed its sister-community till, when they were all in it, the last of them said about the first of them, “Our Lord, these are the ones who led us astray, so bring upon them double punishment in the Fire.” He said, “Each will have double, but you3knownot.”

        (Fadil Solimani's Interpretation of al-Qur'an, Surah al-'Araf, Ayah 38)

        Footnote 1: Frequently the Qur’an addresses the events of the Hereafter in past tense; this grammatical shift should be pondered by the reader.
        If I use your level of reasoning, then I would prove my own belief easily - as Allah refers to future events with the past tense.

        This level of discourse is tiring and I sympathise with the two brothers who have been repeatedly telling you that you keep making the same assumptions. It is because of people like you that our Athari scholars hated Kalam and dismissed it - you are a perfect example of what can go wrong when people who are not Akil try and indulge in rationality. You are no different to the child in the maths class, thinking he has disproved the teacher and all mathematicians with his proof that "1 = 2" (this is a fitting example).

        In summary, Allah, who exists outside of time, addresses Musa, who exists at a certain time and did not exist before a certain time, and Musa Alayhis Salam is not pre-eternal, eternal, whereas Allah is.

        Being pre-eternal does not mean existing for infinite time in the past - it means existing outside of time where there is no concept of beginning or end. Allah being al-Qadim means he has no beginning. Indeed Allah is al-Awwal, al-Akhir and there is nothing before or after him as Khatim an-Nabiyyin Alayhis Salatu Was-Salam has said, negating time for him.

        Abu Hurairah (ra) said:

        “The Messenger of Allah () used to order that when one of us went to sleep, he should say: ‘O Allah, Lord of the heavens and Lord of the earths, and our Lord, and the Lord of everything, splitter of the seed-grain and date-stone, and Revealer of the Tawrah and the Injil and the Qur’an. I seek refuge in You from the evil of every evil that You are holding by the forelock. You are the First, there is nothing before You, You are the Last, there is nothing after You, and Az-Zahir, there is nothing above you, and Al-Batin, there is nothing below You. Relieve me of my debt, and enrich me from poverty

        (Allāhumma rabbas-samāwati wa rabbal-arḍīna wa rabbanā, wa rabba kulli shai’in, fāliqal-ḥabbi wan-nawā, wa munzilat-Tawrāti wal-Injīli wal-Qur’ān. A`ūdhu bika sharri kulli dhi sharrin anta ākhidhun bināṣiyatihi, antal-Awwalu falaisa qablaka shai’un, wa antal-Ākhiru falaisa ba`daka shai’un, waẓ-Ẓāhiru falaisa fauqaka shai'un wal-Bātinu falaisa dūnaka shai’un, iqḍi `annid-daina wa aghninī minal-faqr).’”

        - Adab al-Mufrad of al-Bukhari Hadith 1212 and Sahih Muslim Hadith 2713a, Jami` at-Tirmidhi Hadith 3400 and 3481, Sunan Abi Dawud Hadith 5051 etc. Text/translation from at-Tirmidhi Hadith 3400 Darussalam. Imam at-Tirmidhi rates it Hasanun Sahih, and it is a hadith found in Sahih Muslim. Note that the Arabic is the same in all of these texts, with only slight difference in one of the Matn of Tirmidhi.
        Do we say the grain splits because of its nature embedded in it? That would make greek philosophy (natural causation) into Islamic belief. Allah is the splitter of the seed, Allah is the sole cause of all things.

        And there is nothing before or after him.

        There is nothing with Allah now as was the case in the beginning - he is not subject to time and change. He is as he was. He is above and beyond his creation, seperate from them - Ba'in min Khalqihi. There was no space for him to create the throne beneath him nor was there space above him. He created the throne upon the waters.

        Narrated Waki' bin Hudus:

        from his uncle Abu Razin who said: "I said: 'O Messenger of Allah! Where was our Lord before He created His creation?' He said: 'He was an 'Ama - no space was under him, no space was above him, and He created His Throne upon the water.'"

        Ahmad bin Mani' said that Yazid bin Harun said, "al-Ama' i.e. there is nothing with him"

        - Jami'at-Trmidhi Vol. 5, Book 44, Hadith 3109; Imam at-Tirmidhi rates the hadith sound.
        When there was nothing with Allah, the throne was above the waters.

        Narrated Imran bin Husain:

        I went to the Prophet (ﷺ) and tied my she-camel at the gate. The people of Bani Tamim came to the Prophet (ﷺ) who said "O Bani Tamim! Accept the good tidings." They said twice, 'You have given us the good tidings, now give us something" Then some Yemenites came to him and he said, "Accept the good tidings, O people of Yemem, for Bani Tamim refused them." They said, "We accept it, O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! We have come to ask you about this matter (i.e. the start of creations)." He said, "First of all, there was nothing but Allah, and His throne was over the water, and He wrote everything in the Book (in the Heaven) and created the Heavens and the Earth." Then a man shouted, "O Ibn Husain! Your she-camel has gone away!" So, I went away and could not see the she-camel because of the mirage. By Allah, I wished I had left that she-camel (but not that gathering).

        - Sahih al-Bukhari 3191
        Sincerity is in realising that you can be mistaken.

        Arrogance is in one that is shown the truth and rejects it for he thinks himself superior.

        Allah has decreed that for me to be many times in the past, and surely I will be mistaken in the future - whatever he decrees is the case. I am a fallible human being and make mistakes. But I, the fallible, am not mistaken in these issues. I say that with certainty.

        There are two men. One attacks Islam after learning about, belittling it and taking the evidence brought against him in jest. The other when he hears the evidences, turns to Allah with tears in his eyes, makes Sajdah before Him and seeks forgiveness and accepts Islam.

        Now pick between sincerity and humility, or arrogance and disbelief.

        Be like the better man in the parable.

        You are the better man insha'Allah.






        Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 04-01-21, 12:29 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

          Don't say:
          برك الله فيك
          "Barak Allaahu Feek"

          Instead say:
          بارك الله فيك
          "Baarak Allaahu Feek"


          The first one: has meanings that are completely far from what the speaker would intend to say, some which cannot be attributed to Allaah!

          The second one means: May Allaah bless you
          Some people transliterate an "Alif" with an "aa" and some only with an "a" and I'm from the latter as is clear from my posts.

          So you've literally no point here. Guess you wanted to act as if you understand Arabic and this after you were unable to differentiate between the singular and the plural form, which indicates that you don’t know Arabic.

          But you still have a chance to prove otherwise:
          Tell us what these two pages from a classical Hanbali work regarding creed state:



          And:



          To make it easy: What does the last section of p. 24 state?
          And what does the first sentence of p. 26 state?

          (Forget about the footnotes, because they’re by a mindless "Salafi" innovator.)

          Comment


          • Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post

            JazakumAllahu khayran, your comments were very informative.
            Wa iyyakum
            My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

            Comment


            • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

              I already wrote a detail explanation of how I understand Allah’s Speech. I don’t know how to make it any clearer. Perhaps you can explain how you understand Allah’s Speech, and how Allah Spoke to Musa?

              Perhaps in understanding your perspective I’ll be able to explain it clearer to you.
              I tought i was clear enough. The matter is about Musa (as) being commanded when he was not there to be commanded.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
                In summary, Allah, who exists outside of time, addresses Musa, who exists at a certain time and did not exist before a certain time, and Musa Alayhis Salam is not pre-eternal, eternal, whereas Allah is.
                I think you did not understand me.

                a) Asharis believe the Kalaam Nafsee to be eternal isnt it i.e. it was ever with Allaah as a single undivisable meaning (without letters, sounds of sequence).

                b) And according to the Asharis the Qur'aan matn we have is a created form (expressions) of that Kalaam Nafsee i.e. its a rendering of the uncreated Speech.

                c) The Qur'aan matn we do contain commands and prohibitions such Allaah commanding Musa (as)
                d) This means that the commands and prohibitions have their source from the uncreared Speech i.e. Kalaam Nafsee, which is eternal to you i.e. if these commands and prohibitions would be rendered back to the Kalaam Nafsee then the meanings of these commands and prohibitions are eternal.

                But here for the Ashari's there does arise a problem, since the Kalaam Nafsee contains commands and prohibitions as a eternal meaning without THAT there were those present who were commanded/prohibited.

                I.e. Musaa (as) was commanded at a specific point in time. NOT before it. Musaa was not outside time. The Kalaam Nafsee is outside time and eternal.

                Can you claim Musa (as) was commanded before he existed?

                Thus the Asharis need to explain how Musa was adressed in the eternal meaning (Kalaam Nafsee) while there was no Musaa (as) !

                I am really clear with my point in think.











                Comment


                • ....


                  Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 04-01-21, 05:27 PM.
                  My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                    I think you did not understand me.

                    a) Asharis believe the Kalaam Nafsee to be eternal isnt it i.e. it was ever with Allaah as a single undivisable meaning (without letters, sounds of sequence).

                    b) And according to the Asharis the Qur'aan matn we have is a created form (expressions) of that Kalaam Nafsee i.e. its a rendering of the uncreated Speech.

                    c) The Qur'aan matn we do contain commands and prohibitions such Allaah commanding Musa (as)
                    d) This means that the commands and prohibitions have their source from the uncreared Speech i.e. Kalaam Nafsee, which is eternal to you i.e. if these commands and prohibitions would be rendered back to the Kalaam Nafsee then the meanings of these commands and prohibitions are eternal.

                    But here for the Ashari's there does arise a problem, since the Kalaam Nafsee contains commands and prohibitions as a eternal meaning without THAT there were those present who were commanded/prohibited.

                    I.e. Musaa (as) was commanded at a specific point in time. NOT before it. Musaa was not outside time. The Kalaam Nafsee is outside time and eternal.

                    Can you claim Musa (as) was commanded before he existed?

                    Thus the Asharis need to explain how Musa was adressed in the eternal meaning (Kalaam Nafsee) while there was no Musaa (as) !

                    I am really clear with my point in think.
                    No I understood you well. You have made a false assumption, and because you cannot get out of thinking of it you do not understand these issues.

                    "Thus the Asharis need to explain how Musa was adressed in the eternal meaning (Kalaam Nafsee) while there was no Musaa (as) !"

                    No they don't, because you are making the assumption of time.

                    You are thinking that Allah spoke the Qur'an a long long time ago when there was just Allah and no other creation, therefore (intuitively) the quip where is Musa? He didn't exist all that time ago!

                    It is strange that I can understand your mindset but you seriously struggle to understand ours.

                    Let me ask you a few question to get to the bottom of the matter of how you do not understand the Ash'ari view:

                    1) Do you think that the Ash'ari believe Allah existed eternally in the past (i.e. for infinite time in the past)?

                    2) Explain to me in your own words what the Ash'ari believe when they say "Allah is pre-eternal" or "Allah is eternal".

                    3) Do you think that time in the past goes on forever, there is no beginning for time?

                    4) Do you believe that Allah spoke the verse at a time when Musa Alayhis Salam wasn't there?

                    5) Do you believe that at time X Allah spoke the Qur'an, then at some time after X, Musa who hears Allah who spoke at moment Y? So he addressed him in a time before he exists?

                    Going through what you said

                    "a) Asharis believe the Kalaam Nafsee to be eternal isnt it i.e. it was ever with Allaah as a single undivisable meaning (without letters, sounds of sequence).

                    b) And according to the Asharis the Qur'aan matn we have is a created form (expressions) of that Kalaam Nafsee i.e. its a rendering of the uncreated Speech.

                    c) The Qur'aan matn we do contain commands and prohibitions such Allaah commanding Musa (as)
                    d) This means that the commands and prohibitions have their source from the uncreared Speech i.e. Kalaam Nafsee, which is eternal to you i.e. if these commands and prohibitions would be rendered back to the Kalaam Nafsee then the meanings of these commands and prohibitions are eternal.

                    But here for the Ashari's there does arise a problem, since the Kalaam Nafsee contains commands and prohibitions as a eternal meaning without THAT there were those present who were commanded/prohibited."
                    So Allah orders X for Y being.

                    Allah's act of ordering X, and the speech in which he commands X, is removed from time (pre-eternal) and eternal. It is an eternal act and attribute. It has no beginning or end, a command made removed from time.

                    There was not a moment before he commanded it, nor a moment after it. He is not in time. He is not in time. He timelessly commands it.

                    His speech itself has neither beginning nor end.

                    So Allah, removed from time, commands X for Y time-bound being. Allah does not experience the flow of time and is not a time-bound being. All of time and what is in it, beginning until eternity is known and decreed by him. His knowledge and decreeing is without limit. His creating is without limit. His speech is without limit. So he addresses the one that he determines/creates at a certain time.

                    To beings at any point of time it is as if Allah has already commanded X for the being known as Y. So let us say being Z lives in time before Y. Let us presume Allah reveals to Z some of the divine speech i.e. what Y is commanded. Y does not exist yet. And yet Z knows this.

                    (E.g. a real example of this is if one of the Malaikah was to look at at al-Lawh al-Mahfuz a very long time ago, before the creation of Adam, he will see written down the conversation we are having right now - despite ourselves not existing all that time ago.)

                    But the command is for a being at a specific point in time.

                    He reveals his command/prohibition/order etc. when he wills, and he reveals it in a time, to the being Y at that moment. Thus the being Y has received the commandment of Allah. So Y which was addressed outside of time, receives in time his orders.

                    Allah from outside time addresses the one inside it.

                    So let us review

                    Allah (commander) is not in time.

                    His order (the command) is also not in time, yet addresses the one in time.

                    His creation (the commanded) is in time, addressed by the timeless order from the timeless commander.

                    The commander commands the commanded.

                    All sees and hears all things from all moments in time, and with his timeless speech addresses the beings in whatever time he so ever wills.

                    Exalted is Rab al-'Ala.



                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
                      You are thinking that Allah spoke the Qur'an a long long time ago when there was just Allah and no other creation, therefore (intuitively) the quip where is Musa? He didn't exist all that time ago!
                      So you dont believe that Allaah's Kalaam Nafsee (according tot the asharis the eternal Qur'aan which contains commands and prohibitions) was always ever present with Allaah's Self before Musaa (as) existed?


                      PS: My question or the answer to it has nothing to do with the denotion of time. Whether you consider Allaah in time or outside time does not change anything.

                      Also for me "outside of time" is a mental illusion. We speak about before and after creation, this would imply a time before the creation of time. Time is the measurement of existance and motion. Also i have stated elswhere the illogical implacations if it is said that the creation outside of time is created.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                        So you dont believe that Allaah's Kalaam Nafsee (according tot the asharis the eternal Qur'aan which contains commands and prohibitions) was always ever present with Allaah's Self before Musaa (as) existed?


                        PS: My question or the answer to it has nothing to do with the denotion of time. Whether you consider Allaah in time or outside time does not change anything.

                        Also for me "outside of time" is a mental illusion. We speak about before and after creation, this would imply a time before the creation of time. Time is the measurement of existance and motion. Also i have stated elswhere the illogical implacations if it is said that the creation outside of time is created.
                        That which exist fall into one of two categories, created or uncreated. Time is real, time is not an illusion. Thus time exist. Do believe time is created or uncreated?
                        Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 04-01-21, 08:41 PM.
                        My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                          So you dont believe that Allaah's Kalaam Nafsee (according tot the asharis the eternal Qur'aan which contains commands and prohibitions) was always ever present with Allaah's Self before Musaa (as) existed?


                          PS: My question or the answer to it has nothing to do with the denotion of time. Whether you consider Allaah in time or outside time does not change anything.

                          Also for me "outside of time" is a mental illusion. We speak about before and after creation, this would imply a time before the creation of time. Time is the measurement of existance and motion. Also i have stated elswhere the illogical implacations if it is said that the creation outside of time is created.
                          *rolls eyes*

                          Read what I wrote on this topic a while ago.

                          I wrote the below in response to something I read of someone who at the time said Allah is time. However I address your idea that "Allah is outside time" implies a time before time.

                          Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
                          I have taken a hiatus on my debate here with TheHaqq as it seems that he has left the forum, or does not want to participate in such a debate.

                          Anyway, I have read something very worrying.

                          This literalism with unclear hadith needs to stop - just because RasulAllah reports a hadith where Allah says "Ana ad-Dahr" - it doesn't literally mean that Allah is literally time (astaghfirullah!)
                          I think I need to apologise for this point, as when mentioning a scenario of the 'Man of Ahlul Biddah' I brought up this point of saying Allah is time as an example that one can arrive at false beliefs by following the Hadith that are Mutashabih - I was not intending someone adopts such beliefs (or any of the other beliefs I ascribed to man of Ahlul Biddah) - the entire point was that I was using him as an example to say that people can say what they want and twist dalil to provide evidence for their views.

                          Why can Allah not be time?

                          Time is determined by Allah and can be any other way (it can carry on till infinity, stretch, slow down or stop if Allah willed, he could have made it have an end and have different arrangements of the creation in it etc.). Note: This is not the same thing as saying "Time is created"1 as technically time is not created, arguing so leads to infinite regression as one invents more time in the statement "Time is created". A created thing is that which does not exist in the prior moment and then exists in the next moment - i.e. creation requires time.
                          (Creation can be seen as a variation of determination. The act of Allah's determining and willing the creation is a single transcendent and eternal act that simply is carried out by Allah without time - i.e. it is not like he begins and finishes it.)

                          When someone understands that Allah determined time itself, and that his act of determining is free from time itself, then one can understand how Allah relates to time - he transcends it.
                          Some Turkish theologians have made this excellent article on how to understand this. May Allah reward them and may Allah reward me.

                          Nevertheless if someone does not accept the above, then it can be proven rationally that they are wrong. If Allah was time, then he determined some of himself, e.g. what time contains at each instance. There is rationally no way to prove time is necessarily endless, it is rationally possible for it to have an end (although in actuality it doesn't as he has not determined it that way).
                          So if someone says "Allah is time" then they say that the Determiner (al-Muqtadir), determined himself! (This doctrine essentially leads to 'Pantheism'. Amongst Muslim thinkers I can think of, only the Karramiyyah including Ibn Taymiyyah would defend such a belief - Ibn Taymiyyah would say Allah physically moves into a place himself, determining himself at each place.)

                          Click here for a disproof of that. It is on the site of a well known da'i and mutakallim, so I essentially triviliased the final part of the proof as I knew that Abdullah al-Andalusi accepts occasionalism. Anyway, after posting it I realised I need not have wriiten it as al-Andalusi said that he had since changed his beliefs etc. For the final part explained, see this proof of occasionalism, here - particularly the section on creators (again it can also be abstracted for determiners, an unlimited determiner is necessarily a creator as they can proceed a prior point in time with lack of a possible thing, with that possible thing in the next moment). After reading what I have read, I realise that it was Allah's will and wisdom that I wrote such a proof, as now I can use it to disprove such notions as Allah literally being time.

                          Therefore, as we know Allah can also not be subject to time, inside it (as claimed by our Karrami friends), then we know that Allah is necessarily outside time - i.e. Allah transcends time.

                          As for the verdict on the one who says "Allah is time" - I suppose this is negation of Allah/likening him to other things. So such a belief would surely be Kufr, and this is confirmed by the words of a contemporary scholar:



                          To summarise, with regards to Allah and time their are two false positions and one correct one:
                          1. Allah is inside Time. (Per Muqatiliyyah: Affirmed by Ibn Taymiyyah and his followers, e.g. Yasir Qadhi's friend 'Dr' Hatem al-Hajj in his disgusting book. Kufr)
                          2. Allah is Time itself. (Per Neo-Jahmiyyah. Kufr.)
                          3. Allah is outside of Time. (Per Ahlus Sunnah. Iman.)
                          Perhaps if someone has erred either on this forum or certain YouTube videos then they should correct themselves.

                          The next thing I will discuss, when I get the time Insha Allah, will be how to understand the Kasb of al-Ash'ari (reconciling free will and the fact that Allah is the creator and determiner of all things - i.e. that we do not will unless he wills).
                          Notes
                          1. When some of the learned Ulama say "Allah created time" they mean "created in pre-eternity" i.e. that he, from his station outside of time, is determining time to have a certain length as opposed to determining it to not have any length (in which case there would be just Allah and there would be no time either).

                          So Allah being outside time does not lead to any contradictions.

                          What is meant by the phrase "Allah created time" is that Allah determined all times and things in the way they are as opposed to any other way. E.g. it is a rational possibility for time to have an end, but Allah determining time such that it has no end. The determining of time as opposed to not determining it is called creation. Allah could also determine time to not be - which he didn't for he determined it to be (time is rationally possible - it can exist and it can also not exist).

                          So it is correct to say Allah is outside time, moreover this is what RasulAllah Alayhis Salam believed as evidenced by Hadith. Of course someone may ask, "Do we say Allah exists now?" The answer is yes, and I will give an analogy.

                          Understanding Transcendence of Allah from Time - the Infinite Hotel.

                          Imagine you are in an infinite hotel.

                          It has a beginning (a first room) and no end (you can keep going down the corridor, there infinite rooms). ((The flow of time unlike a person traversing an infinite hotel necessarily flows forward or stops, it cannot go backwards (leads to rational contradiction and time actually going forwards). ))

                          The rooms are numbered, with the the first room being room one, representing the first moment in time. The numbered rooms continue without end.

                          You are moving forward, entering each room, seeing all that can be seen from inside each one then exiting and entering the next room along.

                          You yourself can only be in a certain room at once, just as the creation only experiences each moment of time one after the other. The future is not now and now is not the future.

                          Inside each room, is the room itself with the furniture etc. with a a window to outside. You cannot see what is in the other rooms when you are in this room.

                          Now when you are inside each room, then it is as if you are in each moment of time. What exists for you is what you can see. So all the furniture in the room exists. Now to you as a timed bound being, inside the room you cannot see anything from the other rooms. Moreover what is in those room is not in the room you're in. For you they do not exist.

                          Similarly at some moment of time we do not say e.g. "The boy both exists in that place and doesn't" - because at that time the boy cannot both exist and not exist in that space. (Rational contradiction - existance and non-existance). It would be like saying "there is a vase in room 256 in a certain place and also it is not in that certain place. This is contradictory - either it is in that place in that room or not.

                          So if you are in a certain room what then can you say exists? Well everything in that room for a start. So at a moment of time, exists all that is in that time.

                          But if you go over to the window, and look out you will see what is outside. And this can be viewed from any room. And the view is the same. What is outside can see what is inside every single room. So from every room there exists what is outside it.

                          A moment of time is a parable for each room, and being outside the window of each and all rooms is a parable for Allah.

                          Allah is not inside every room, nor is Allah inside one room at a time, he is outside the rooms.

                          So Allah exists no matter what time you are in, and he exists outside of time whilst you are bound by time and exist inside it.

                          Insha'Allah this metaphor has made things clear.

                          Allah is al-Awwal, there is nothing before him, He is al-Akhir there is nothing after him. In his Yad are all things, and his spending upon the creation does not decrease from it, for there are without limit, infinite things in Yad Allah.

                          The uncreated creator, the uncaused causer of all, omiscient and omnipotent, the transcendent and God of all.

                          There is no God but Him so worship Him alone.


                          Narrated Abu Huraira:

                          Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Allah said, 'Spend (O man), and I shall spend on you." He also said, "Allah's Hand is full, and (its fullness) is not affected by the continuous spending night and day." He also said, "Do you see what He has spent since He created the Heavens and the Earth? Nevertheless, what is in His Hand is not decreased, and His Throne was over the water; and in His Hand there is the balance (of justice) whereby He raises and lowers (people).

                          - Sahih al-Bukhari 4684
                          Narrated Abu Huraira:

                          Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "Allah said, 'The son of Adam hurts me for he abuses Time though I am Time: in My Hands are all things, and I cause the revolution of day and night.

                          - Sahih al-Bukhari 4826
                          He is Allah—there is no god except Him: the King, the Most Holy, the All-Perfect, the Source of Serenity, the Watcher ˹of all˺, the Almighty, the Supreme in Might,1 the Majestic. Glorified is Allah far above what they associate with Him ˹in worship˺!

                          (Fadil Solimani's Interpretation of al-Qur'an, Surah al-Hashr, Ayah 23)

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                          • "creation requires time" i.e. a thing not existing and then existing afterwards.

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                            • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                              That which exist fall into one of two categories, created or uncreated. Time is real, time is not an illusion. Thus time exist. Do believe time is created or uncreated?
                              Space, matter and time (zaman, motion of celestial bodies) all existed before the creation of this creation (without them being eternal), as is clearly evidenced in the texts of the Book and the Sunnah. For Allah wrote the determination (decrees) of this creation 50,000 years before its actual creation, indicating a measurement of time prior to this creation and likewise the six days of creation (of the heavens and earth) are days other than the days of this earth. Muslim brings the hadeeth of Abd Allaah bin Amr in his Sahih, that the Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) said,"Allaah wrote the decrees of the creation 50,000 years before He created the creation, and His Throne was over the water." This proves the presence of three things, a measurement of time prior to this creation, the Throne and the water and from other ahaadeeth, we learn of the creation of the pen (al-qalam) and the preserved tablet (al-lawh al-mahfudh). As such the claim of "space" and "time" being created with this creation is an incorrect, futile saying. There are statements from the Salaf that the heavens and earth were made from already existing nebula (mist, smoke, vapourized particles) which itself came from already existing water (which ultimately was created by Allaah).


                              Time is relative and there are many different measurements of time, since time (zaman) is based upon the measurement of motion of celestial bodies. And Ahl al-Sunnah believe Allaah is the creator of all times (azminah), since all celestial bodies and entities besides Allaah came into existence after non-existence, and all notions and measurements of time associated with them are therefore created. Ahl al-Sunnah also believe that Allaah is one who speaks and acts as and when He wills and has choice, this being from his utmost perfection, and this indicated by many texts of the Qur'an. Accordingly, it is possible for Allaah to make mention of his actions in relation to the measurement of time with His creation, even though he is the creator of that time and not encompassed by it, since Allaah being one who acts and speaks according to will and power is a separate issue to the existence of time (which is measurement of motion of celestial bodies), and the former does not require the latter. The relativity of time is established by the fact that the six days of the creation of heavens and earth are other than the six days of this earth, and Allaah has made mention of his act of creating the heavens and earth with reference to an already existing time-frame, and the Salaf explained (on the basis of the Qur'an) that each of the six days of creation are a thousand years of our reckoning (12,000 lunar months). And likewise there is "time" in the Hereafter, since in Paradise there will be "morning and evening" (19:62), and the day of Friday in Paradise is the day of increase and extra blessings and favours, indicating days in Paradise. And the Qur'an (and the Sunnah) are full of Allaah's speech and action being mentioned in relation to our time frame (and that does not mean Allaah is encapsulated by this time, zaman, which He created), since there is no conflict between Allaah being one who has a will and choice and who speaks and acts as and when He wills and Allaah not being limited or encapsulated by any of the measurements of time (azminah) which He created, since Allaah speaking and acting as He wills is independent of the azminah (times), even if His speech and action can be related to our measurement of time [Allaah speaking to Moses for example, or speaking with the angels who take turns in ascent and descent at Fajr and Asr to report about the servants, even though Allaah knows full well about them and all similar revealed texts which mention the likes of this]. Upon this, the misguidance of the Ahl al-Kalaam is made apparent who claim that Allaah having speech and action tied to will and power (and whose mention can be made with respect to the time frame of this earth, or a time frame prior to the creation of the heavens and earth [such as the writing of the decrees]) necessitates hawaadith (events, occurrences) which - according to them - would render him like all created bodies who are encapsulated by "space" and "time" and "never devoid of hawaadith" [they treat Allah's wilful choice in speech and action to be synonymous with events taking place in bodies (indicating gross tasbheeh in the theoretical foundations of their creed)], then all of this is a baseless saying that is rejected and refuted by the Qur'an abundantly, and the Salaf never knew any of this and it came from the conceptual tools and baggage of the Hellenized Jews, Christians and Sabeans and is the very "kalaam" condemned by the Salaf and it is the kalaam of all the factions and offshoots of the Jahmiyyah from whom are the Ash'aris and Maturidis.

                              Refutation of those who claim that "space" and "time" were created with this creation and upon that basis argue with the atheists and Philosophers of today using arguments that are founded upon the usool (foundations) of the Jahmiyyah, and this includes discussions of notions of "infinity" and what is similar to that, these are simply revivals of the greatest foundation of the Jahmiyyah which is the claim of "the impossibility of an endless chain of events in the past". This is embodied in the use of the flawed and corrupt "kalam cosmological argument" which unfortunately many individuals are using against atheists today. And some extremely shrewd atheists have shown (on the basis of this proof) the obligation to also accept the impossibility of an endless chain of events in the future as well - and this is what al-Jahm bin Safwaan was upon, for he was simply being consistent in the application of the proof (unlike the contradictory Ash'aris and Maturidis who took up this proof from the Jahmiyyah and Mu'tazilah), and he, al-Jahm, claimed Paradise and Hellfire will perish, due to the impossibility of an endless chain of events in the future. So the intent here is that those from the Muslims and those claiming ascription to the Sunnah who argue with the likes of this argument whose underlying assumptions enter into some of their speech, they are upon jahl (ignorance) and lack of understanding (fahm) of what the Salaf were upon, and what the Shariah texts necessitate, and they are simply keeping those doors open by which the atheists can enter and cause more confusion and doubt and attack the creed of the Muslims by monopolizing on this flawed and corrupt proof. And thus we warn the Muslims against the likes of these people, be assured, no matter how much they ascribe to the Sunnah (or to Salafiyyah), they are Ahl al-Kalaam and not people of the Sunnah, and these people are found on the tube, on forums, blogs and websites and many a naive Muslim is lapping it all up.

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                              • ...

                                Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 04-01-21, 10:38 PM.
                                My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

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