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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
    So a non-existing Musa was adressed in eternity by Allaah ? You really need to have chicken brains to believe this.

    So when did hear Allaah "Indeed Allaah is poor and we are rich!" ? The sentence is in past tense, means He heard it later. But you are bound to claim he heard in eternity from non-existing humans. And since it is said in past tense, according to your logic there should be a situation of before eternity.
    Is there a specific reason for you repeating your questions after they have been answered? Allah ta’ala is eternal and not in time and his actions lead to change in the creation and not in His Self or His attributes of perfection.
    So your constant asking about "when" doesn’t make sense, because Allah ta’ala is not in time. The past, the present and the future are all like one in front of the Bari subhanahu wa ta'ala.

    If you as a materialist don’t accept this, then this does not give you the right to force your views upon the people of Islam.

    Your understanding of the Qur`anic Ayat is so shallow and the people you follow are light-years away from proficiency in the Arabic language (a fact which no one can deny!), which leads them to all kind of weird claims (like their claim that "God has a literal cloak and wrapper" thereby completely distorting then meaning of the actual narration).

    Why is it that the classical scholars of the Arabic language and those of Tafsir never understood these weird meanings from the Book of Allah ta’ala that you claim?! Why?

    Originally posted by maturidee View Post
    You are really a idiot, and if i would reach you, i want to beat your head up with my shoes!
    Now I'm really scared. Especially since I'm from a country where the people are known to be very agressive. I doubt you would even dare to put your foot upon Iraqi soil, let alone more than that.

    Don't you think that you as someone who invaded this thread with off-topic posts and committed blasphemy several times in front of all (by claiming that God has a size and that it's possible regarding Him to be settled upon the back of a mosquito and other than this) and proved your absolute ignorance regarding the Arabic language (to the degree that you can’t differentiate between the singular and the plural form) and used a missionary to attack Muslims and then added to all of this your above ridiculous threat, are more deserving of the description of being an "idiot"?

    And you didn’t answer my last question: Do you believe that "it's possible for God to tell a lie"?
    And additionally: Do you believe that "it’s possible for God to descent to the earth and go around"?
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 02-01-21, 08:08 PM.

    Comment


    • These are some of the descriptions of the being that the "Salafi" Najdi cultists worship instead of Allah ta'ala:

      - a literal [human like] form [with a size] with a certain amount of similarity to the creation "just like the face of a cat is similar to a certain degree to that of a horse but not completely like it" ("great" example, right?)
      - being subject to changes in his self and going through moments
      - his literal form also changes sometimes to another form and this of course is all literal
      - literal eyes and the number of them is "only two" and "if god would have more eyes, then this would be from his perfection" and it "would have been easier to distinguish him from the Dajjal"
      - a literal face and if one were to ask them whether this literal face is round or rectangular or another form, then they would state as one of their leaders stated "god knows best"
      - two literal hands with literal fingers (maybe five?!)
      - his knowledge, his seeing and his hearing all go through change and it's a sequence one following after the other just like in our case
      - his seeing is through two literal eyes (so they are the instrument of his seeing!) and as for his hearing, then it’s possible that he has also literal ears (so it’s not allowed to deny literal ears!)
      - his will forms in time after not being there (just like us!)
      - his speech as a particular speech is emergent and not eternal
      - literal legs and feet and a literal shin (what about literal toes? Don’t deny them, right?)
      - literal cloak and wrapper (meaning: clothing!!!) but "we don’t know how he put them on" (just look at this absolute mindless pagan statement!)
      - literal settling upon a throne high up and this is regarded as "perfection" and this with the knowledge that he was not always settled on this throne (so he gained more "perfection" through it?)
      - literal descending to the lowest heaven (this with the knowledge that the lowest heaven is part of the creation) and this is also an attribute that he acquired after the existence of the creation
      - maybe even found on the back of mosquitos (is this also from his "perfection"?)
      - literally coming and going and running and yes even literal jogging (it’s as if these people are speaking about the guy next door!)
      - literally laughing
      - literally getting bored
      - literally getting hurt
      - etc. (= "literal this and literal that...")

      How does that all sound?!

      These are just some of the things they believe regarding the being they worship and it’s obvious that this being can not be Allah jalla jalaluhu - Who is High Exalted above the description of created beings and above what the criminals claim.
      So this being could be the Dajjal or another Taghut or even the accursed Iblis!

      If anyone wonders who said the really weird and shocking points among the above list, then the answer of course is: Ibn 'Uthaymin, whom the "Salafis" present as a "great scholar"!

      If it’s wished and I get the time, I can make specifically a thread regarding his absolutely mindless and disgusting comments on creed. (I just say "round or rectangular face... god knows best" and "literal cloak... but we don’t know how he put it on" for you to have an idea what to expect.)

      We ask Allah ta’ala - the One who has no partner in His divine Lordship nor is there anyone similar to Him in His Self, Attributes and Actions - to protect us from the tribulations of our time and to keep us steadfast on the truth and not to be among those who respond to the call of those who are standing upon the doors of hellfire and inviting the people to it.
      Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 02-01-21, 10:32 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

        Is there a specific reason for you repeating your questions after they have been answered? Allah ta’ala is eternal and not in time and his actions lead to change in the creation and not in His Self or His attributes of perfection.
        your constant asking about "when" doesn’t make sense, because Allah ta’ala is not in time. The past, the present and the future are all like one in front of the Bari subhanahu wa ta'ala.
        That's not even my point. As for the arguments sake, im asking the question from your point of view. Did Allaah speak untruthfully in those two verses? Meaning, that since Ash'aris believe that the Qur'aan is eternal (qadeem), it is from Allaah's eternal speech which is the Kalaam Nafsee, are there things in the Qur'aan that amount to untruths?

        Because if the Qur'aan existed eternally with Allaah, yet Allaah says, "Allaah has indeed heard the saying of those who said ..." and "Allaah has indeed heard the saying of she that disputes ..." and neither "she that disputes" or "those who said" what they said existed from eternity alongside this speech which existed with Allaah's self and later expressed (according to the Ash'aris) in the words we now have with us in the Qur'aan that is memorized, recited and heard, and as quoted in the two verses above. In short, are their lies in the Qur'aan? Considering (upon the Ash'ari creed) that this Qur'aan is an expression of a meaning present with Allaah's Self from eternity. What is the answer to this? And how can this matter be resolved? And what is the solution?

        Also note that in these verses Allaah has affirmed, in the past tense, and with the particles "qad" (denoting completion of an act) and "laqad" (denoting completion of an act with emphasis) - that He heard (sami'a) the saying of she who disputes and of the saying of the Jews, and also affirmed in the present tense that He hears (yasma'u) the discussion (of she who disputes).

        The answer must come from an Ash'ari perspective. In other words what would be the response to this from the Ash'ari madhab and its textbooks?

        To put it more clearly in summary:

        QUESTION 1:

        Do you believe all humans that Allaah has adressed in the Qur'aan such as Musa (as) and the people in the above two verses that they were existing in pre-eternity so that they could be adressed by Allaah. So a non-existing Musa was adressed in eternity by Allaah ?



        Another verse to make my point clear:
        لَقَدْ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ إِذْ يُبَايِعُونَكَ تَحْتَ الشَّجَرَةِ
        Indeed, Allaah was pleased with the believers when they gave their pledge to you (O Muhammad) under the tree. (Al-Fath 48:18)



        Again Allaah was pleased with the believers when they were pledging allegiance to the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wasallam) and this instance of being pleased was as they were giving the pledge of allegiance and it could not have existed from eternity.

        QUESTION 2:

        So do you believe the believers who gave their pledge, that they existed in eternity i.e. the pledge was in eternity ?

        Now please don't twist around by keep your answer straight to the point. Just write "ANSWER 1:" and thereafter your answer and the same for the second question. And remember: The answer must come from an Ash'ari perspective.


        Comment


        • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
          So you believe that Allah ta'ala uttered a Kaf and then a Nun and in between a damma (which forms the Arabic word "Kun") in order to create these blessed Prophets (peace be upon them)!
          So are you saying God told a lie that He is saying "Kun" in order to create?

          Comment


          • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
            Now please don't twist around by keep your answer straight to the point. Just write "ANSWER 1:" and thereafter your answer and the same for the second question. And remember: The answer must come from an Ash'ari perspective.
            Your questions don't make sense to me, because Allah ta'ala is outside of time [and space] and eternal.

            Your questions only make sense regarding the being that you worship instead of Allah ta’ala, because this being is in time [and space].

            You can’t expect me to answer questions, which assume that your false materialist beliefs are correct in the first place.

            This is like asking whether "god could create a rock so heavy that he can’t lift it" and then expect that one answers with "yes or no" and this even though the question itself is wrong.

            Our difference is that you’re a materialist and that in your view nothing can exist except that it’s in time and space, while in the view of the people of Islam Allah ta’ala is beyond space and time.

            Originally posted by maturidee View Post

            So are you saying God told a lie that He is saying "Kun" in order to create?
            No, but I believe that you’re a liar and unable to comprehend basic issues.
            Add to this: It's you who believes most likely in the "intrinsic possibility of God lying" (which is why you are unable to deny it!) and not me.

            In the Qur`an al-karim the statements of many Prophets - peace be upon them - of the past before the time of the Chosen One - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - are mentioned in Arabic (meaning in our reading) and this while these Prophets - peace be upon them - were not speaking Arabic.
            Does this mean that the Qur`an is wrong regarding what they stated? Obviously no, because it's simply mentioning the meaning of their words!

            In the Qur`an al-karim even the statements of ants are mentioned in Arabic (meaning in our reading) and this with the knowledge that they don’t speak any human language and that their way of communication differs from ours.
            Again: The Qur`an al-karim mentions the meaning of their statement!

            As for the speech of the Lord of the Worlds, subhanahu wa ta’ala:
            It's eternal - not emergent as you claim! - and absolutely perfect and completely dissimilar to created speech.

            "Kun" - meaning reading a Kaf and then a damma and then a Nun - is OUR reading of the Book of Allah ta’ala, but Allah's speech itself is without sequence, because it's without modality!
            So the meaning of the Arabic word "Kun" is what Allah ta’ala stated eternally. Simple as that.

            This is why the Asha’ira differentiate regarding OUR reading of the Book of Allah ta'ala and that which Allah ta'ala stated eternally.
            Even though the Hanabila have a problem with this, their own position differs mostly in wording and not in meaning as they themselves negate sequence in His speech and are very harsh on anyone who claims His speech to be emergent (as you do!).
            The Hanbali Imam al-Tufi (d. 716 AH) even indicated towards the difference with the Asha'ira being one of wording only in reality (while supporting the Hanbali position).

            May Allah ta'ala have mercy upon all our scholars - the defenders and transmitters of this religion - and punish their enemies!
            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 03-01-21, 01:00 PM.

            Comment


            • It is your belief that you state that God has talked to (with his eternal inner speech), heard and saw things in pre-eternity, yet when i ask the implications of this belief you can't answer. This shows that your belief is flawed. Considering (upon the Ash'ari creed) that this Qur'aan is an expression of a meaning present with Allaah's Self from eternity (i.e. always), you need to come with a coherent logical explaination/solution for all of that.

              So once more; since you believe that the Qur'aan (which also contains Allaah's speech to certain individuals) is an expression of a meaning present with Allaah's Self from eternity, than what kind of Musa (as) was Allaah speaking to with his eternal meaning of His Speech that was present with Him always ?

              Who did God adress in eternity with His kalaam nafsi to the meaning of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..."

              I.e. who was adressed with this inner speech in eternity ?

              Just be honest.

              Note: That you are bound to say God is still adressing Musa i.e. eternally. But that's maybe subject to mention another time, the above question is on the premise that the Qur'aan is eternal in the sense that that God spoke it in eternity, once, without succession sequence (of its letters and words). Note that this statement is paradoxal i.e. spoke it once in eternity that would mean spoke and ended in eternity in one single instant which is muhaal. But as i send the above question is on the premise of the asharis.




              Last edited by maturidee; 03-01-21, 01:15 PM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                the above question is on the premise that the Qur'aan is eternal in the sense that that God spoke it in eternity, once, without succession sequence (of its letters and words).
                This "once" is from your own pocket and not what Ash'aris [or Hanbalis] believe.

                You're always falsely assuming that when we say that the speech of Allah ta'ala is eternal - and not emergent as you claim! - it means that this is "an instant of time way in the past", because you’re unable to accept that Allah ta'ala is outside of time without beginning or end.

                You're creating your own paradox based upon your lack of understanding, which does not apply to the people of Islam.

                Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                Note that this statement is paradoxal i.e. spoke it once in eternity that would mean spoke and ended in eternity in one single instant which is muhaal.
                This is indeed impossible, but it’s not what the people of Islam believe as already stated.

                What is ironic is that you’re the one who regards it possible for a past infinite progression to come to an end through your support for Hawadith la Awwala laha (temporarilty having no beginning).
                Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 03-01-21, 01:59 PM.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                  This "once" is from your own pocket and not what Ash'aris [or Hanbalis] believe.
                  Meaning without a begin and end.

                  So once more; since you believe that the Qur'aan (which also contains Allaah's speech to certain individuals) is an expression of a meaning present with Allaah's Self from eternity, than what kind of Musa (as) was Allaah speaking to with His eternal meaning of His Speech that was present with Him always ?

                  Who did God adress in eternity with His kalaam nafsi to the meaning of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..."

                  I.e. who was adressed with this inner speech in eternity ?


                  ​​



                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                    It is your belief that you state that God has talked to (with his eternal inner speech), heard and saw things in pre-eternity, yet when i ask the implications of this belief you can't answer. This shows that your belief is flawed. Considering (upon the Ash'ari creed) that this Qur'aan is an expression of a meaning present with Allaah's Self from eternity (i.e. always), you need to come with a coherent logical explaination/solution for all of that.

                    So once more; since you believe that the Qur'aan (which also contains Allaah's speech to certain individuals) is an expression of a meaning present with Allaah's Self from eternity, than what kind of Musa (as) was Allaah speaking to with his eternal meaning of His Speech that was present with Him always ?

                    Who did God adress in eternity with His kalaam nafsi to the meaning of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..."

                    I.e. who was adressed with this inner speech in eternity ?

                    Just be honest.

                    Note: That you are bound to say God is still adressing Musa i.e. eternally. But that's maybe subject to mention another time, the above question is on the premise that the Qur'aan is eternal in the sense that that God spoke it in eternity, once, without succession sequence (of its letters and words). Note that this statement is paradoxal i.e. spoke it once in eternity that would mean spoke and ended in eternity in one single instant which is muhaal. But as i send the above question is on the premise of the asharis.



                    Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                    Meaning without a begin and end.

                    So once more; since you believe that the Qur'aan (which also contains Allaah's speech to certain individuals) is an expression of a meaning present with Allaah's Self from eternity, than what kind of Musa (as) was Allaah speaking to with His eternal meaning of His Speech that was present with Him always ?

                    Who did God adress in eternity with His kalaam nafsi to the meaning of "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..."

                    I.e. who was adressed with this inner speech in eternity ?
                    The problem with your question is you don't understanding Ashari Aqida. And you are reading it with the lens of Taymiyyan-Salafi Aqida.
                    We don't know how Allah speaks, sees or hears

                    We affirm what is the Quran and Sunnah without howness, bila kayf






                    When you read Asharis saying, "Allah's Speech is without letters and sound", you are reading it as if Asharis are saying "Allah speaks without letters and sounds." You are reading it as a statement of affirmation as if we are describing how Allah speaks. When Asharis says, Allah's Speech is without letters and sounds it is actually a "statement of negation", we are only negating from Allah's Speech, the Speech of creation, which is the only speech we know.

                    Similarily traditional Hanbalis, when they say Allah's Speech is with letters and sounds. Again, it is not a statement of affirmation, in the sense of describing how Allah's Speaks.. When they say Allah's Speech is with letters and sounds, they are describing creation's perception of Allah speech, ie Allah can be heard (ie the meaning of "with sound"), and Allah can be understood (ie the meaning of "with letters"), not they they know how Allah speaks or that they believe Allah's Speech is like creation in some way.

                    Taymiyyan-Salafis on the other hand, believe Allah's Speech is literally with letters and sounds, in the same way that our speech with sounds which is articulated and understood as letters except they don't believe it is produced with a tongue and a vocal cord. They believe this because they believe in tashbih (similarity). They believe there is some likeness (tashbih) between Allah and His creation when it comes to their Attributes.

                    Do you see the difference?

                    Again, Asharis say, "Allah's Speech is an Attribute, which has no beginning nor end, uncreated". You are reading it as, "Allah Speaks without beginning nor ending". This understanding implies howness, how Allah speaks. And there is a big difference between the two statements. When we say Allah's Speech is an Attribute without beginning nor end, we are not describing how Allah's Speaks rather we are describing the Speech of Allah, as an Attribute, which is uncreated, without beginning nor end.

                    I am spelling this difference out to you because you keep on saying, "Allah speaks from eternality," which delves into how Allah speaks, Asharis don't say, "Allah speaks from eternity". We don't know how Allah's Speaks. NO ONE KNOWS HOW ALLAH SPEAKS.

                    Human beings speaks with sounds, and those sounds point to letters and words, and those letters and words point to particular meanings. Sound is how Human beings Speak.

                    We don't know how Allah speaks.

                    Not all speech is with sound in the same way that our speech is with sound, but we as humans (through karamat) can hear (perceive) speech that is not like ours.

                    The ant spoke to Solomon

                    “Until when they [Solomon’s army] came across a valley of ants, one ant said, ‘O ants! Enter into your dwellings, so Solomon and his soldiers do not trample you without realizing!’ And so he [Solomon, peace be upon him] smiled at its words…” [Qur’an 27:18]

                    Ants don't speak with sound. But if Allah chooses, through karamat (miracles), we will be able to hear them. Solomon was able to perceive the speech of ants with clarity, even though ants don't speak with sound. Ants communicate by releasing chemicals, and ants have chemical receptors to perceive each others chemicals.

                    The Tree Spoke to the Prophet (saw)

                    “Narrated Abdullah bin Masúd that he was asked, ‘As to who informed the prophet about the Jinns at night when they heard the Quran?’ He said that a tree informed the prophet about them.” (Bukhari Vol. 5, Bk. 58, No. 199)

                    “Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: The prophet used to stand by a stem of a date-palm tree (while delivering a Khutba). When the pulpit was placed for him we heard that stem crying like a pregnant she-camel till the prophet got down from the pulpit and place his hand over it.” (Bukhari Vol. 2, Bk. 13, No. 41)

                    Trees don't speak with sound. But if Allah chooses, through karamat (miracles), we will be able to hear them. The Prophet :saw: was able to perceive the speech of trees with clarity, even though trees don't speak with sound. In fact, we don't know how trees communicate.

                    In the future stones will speak to us

                    “Narrated Abdullah bin Umar: Allah’s messenger said, ‘You (i.e. Muslims) will fight against the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, ‘O Abdallah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ In another quotation: ‘The hour will not come until you fight against Jews.’” (Bukhari Vol. 4, Bk. 52, No. 176)

                    Stones don't speak with sound. But if Allah chooses, through karamat (miracles), we will be able to hear them. There will come a time when our Ummah will able to perceive the speech of stones with clarity, even though rocks don't speak with sound. In fact, we don't know how stones communicate.

                    In conclusion, even though ants, trees and rocks are able to communicate to human beings, it doesn't mean their speech is like the Speech of human beings. But our perception may be as such if so Allah wills.

                    We don't know how Allah Speaks. All we can say is, Allah Speaks in a manner that befits His Majesty.. The scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah have concluded that the Speech of Allah is uncreated, in refutation of the Mutazilah, who believed that the Speech of Allah was created.

                    Just as Solomon had no difficult hearing the Ant, the Prophet, saw, and no difficult hearing the tree, and the future Muslim will have no difficult hearing the rocks or stones. Just as Musa had no difficulty hearing Allah Subhana wa ta ala.

                    This is like when the Prophet, (saw), compared our seeing of Allah and our seeing of the moon. The Comparison isn't comparing Allah and the Moon, thus no tashbih (similarity), it is comparing our "seeing" of Allah to our "seeing" of the moon. Comparing our ability to see. I too am not comparing Allah to creation when I say, Solomon heard the Ant, the Prophet heard, the Tree, the future will hear the stone and Musa heard Allah. I am comparing our "hearing", our ability to hear.

                    Abu Hurayrah relates: They (the Companions of the Prophet) said: O Messenger of Allaah, will we be able to see our Lord on the Day of Judgement? He replied: “Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun at noon when there is no cloud over it?” They said: No. He again said: “Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on the fourteenth night when there is no cloud over it?” They said: No. Thereupon he said: “By Allaah Who is the One in Whose Hand is my life, you will not face any more difficulty in seeing your Lord than you face in seeing one of them.” (Muslim)

                    In conclusion:

                    We don't say, Allah speaks from eternity, because we do not delve into the howness of Allah's Speech. Rather we say, Allah's Speech is an Attribute of His, which has no beginning nor end, uncreated. We believe Allah's Speech can be heard and understood as Musa heard and understood Allah when He spoke to Musa, but we do not believe Allah Speech is like the Speech of creation in anyway.

                    "There is absolutely nothing like Him, yet He Hears and Sees." (42:11)

                    And Allah knows best.
                    Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 03-01-21, 07:02 PM.
                    My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
                      In conclusion:

                      We don't say, Allah speaks from eternity, because we do not delve into the howness of Allah's Speech. Rather we say, Allah's Speech is an Attribute of His, which has no beginning nor end, uncreated. We believe Allah's Speech can be heard and understood as Musa heard and understood Allah when He spoke to Musa, but we do not believe Allah Speech is like the Speech of creation in anyway.

                      "There is absolutely nothing like Him, yet He Hears and Sees." (42:11)

                      And Allah knows best.
                      That's not even my question. Allaah's Eternal Speech (as how the Asharis it mean) do contain commands and prohibitions.

                      The point here is that according to the Asharis these commands and prohibitions are Eternal. But without a begin there was only Allaah. So who was Allaah adressing if there was no one in existance except Allaah himself?

                      That's the whole crucial point. Before the creation of humans there was no human in existance to adress commands and prohibitions to.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post
                        In conclusion:

                        We don't say, Allah speaks from eternity, because we do not delve into the howness of Allah's Speech. Rather we say, Allah's Speech is an Attribute of His, which has no beginning nor end, uncreated. We believe Allah's Speech can be heard and understood as Musa heard and understood Allah when He spoke to Musa, but we do not believe Allah Speech is like the Speech of creation in anyway.

                        "There is absolutely nothing like Him, yet He Hears and Sees." (42:11)

                        And Allah knows best.
                        Barakallahu fik, dear brother.

                        I also tried to explain this to him, but he doesn’t want to understand this and he is hell bent on forcing us to ascribe a spefcific modality to the divine speech - thereby falling into Tashbih - as he does in his mindless state.
                        It really feels like trying to explain the different colors to a person who is blind since birth.

                        The problem is that people like him have a completely wrong mindset. For them what is important is "to refute Ash'aris" no matter what and for the sake of this they will speak regarding Allah ta’ala in a manner as if they are speaking about the guy next door and are even ready to say disrespectful statements regarding the Lord of the Worlds.
                        They clearly lack the proper decorum and veneration for the One who created them and the feeling of servanthood towards Him.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post



                          The problem with your question is you don't understanding Ashari Aqida. And you are reading it with the lens of Taymiyyan-Salafi Aqida.
                          We don't know how Allah speaks, sees or hears

                          We affirm what is the Quran and Sunnah without howness, bila kayf






                          When you read Asharis saying, "Allah's Speech is without letters and sound", you are reading it as if Asharis are saying "Allah speaks without letters and sounds." You are reading it as a statement of affirmation as if we are describing how Allah speaks. When Asharis says, Allah's Speech is without letters and sounds it is actually a "statement of negation", we are only negating from Allah's Speech, the Speech of creation, which is the only speech we know.

                          Similarily traditional Hanbalis, when they say Allah's Speech is with letters and sounds. Again, it is not a statement of affirmation, in the sense of describing how Allah's Speaks.. When they say Allah's Speech is with letters and sounds, they are describing creation's perception of Allah speech, ie Allah can be heard (ie the meaning of "with sound"), and Allah can be understood (ie the meaning of "with letters"), not they they know how Allah speaks or that they believe Allah's Speech is like creation in some way.

                          Taymiyyan-Salafis on the other hand, believe Allah's Speech is literally with letters and sounds, in the same way that our speech with sounds which is articulated and understood as letters except they don't believe it is produced with a tongue and a vocal cord. They believe this because they believe in tashbih (similarity). They believe there is some likeness (tashbih) between Allah and His creation when it comes to their Attributes.

                          Do you see the difference?

                          Again, Asharis say, "Allah's Speech is an Attribute, which has no beginning nor end, uncreated". You are reading it as, "Allah Speaks without beginning nor ending". This understanding implies howness, how Allah speaks. And there is a big difference between the two statements. When we say Allah's Speech is an Attribute without beginning nor end, we are not describing how Allah's Speaks rather we are describing the Speech of Allah, as an Attribute, which is uncreated, without beginning nor end.

                          I am spelling this difference out to you because you keep on saying, "Allah speaks from eternality," which delves into how Allah speaks, Asharis don't say, "Allah speaks from eternity". We don't know how Allah's Speaks. NO ONE KNOWS HOW ALLAH SPEAKS.

                          Human beings speaks with sounds, and those sounds point to letters and words, and those letters and words point to particular meanings. Sound is how Human beings Speak.

                          We don't know how Allah speaks.

                          Not all speech is with sound in the same way that our speech is with sound, but we as humans (through karamat) can hear (perceive) speech that is not like ours.

                          The ant spoke to Solomon

                          “Until when they [Solomon’s army] came across a valley of ants, one ant said, ‘O ants! Enter into your dwellings, so Solomon and his soldiers do not trample you without realizing!’ And so he [Solomon, peace be upon him] smiled at its words…” [Qur’an 27:18]

                          Ants don't speak with sound. But if Allah chooses, through karamat (miracles), we will be able to hear them. Solomon was able to perceive the speech of ants with clarity, even though ants don't speak with sound. Ants communicate by releasing chemicals, and ants have chemical receptors to perceive each others chemicals.

                          The Tree Spoke to the Prophet (saw)

                          “Narrated Abdullah bin Masúd that he was asked, ‘As to who informed the prophet about the Jinns at night when they heard the Quran?’ He said that a tree informed the prophet about them.” (Bukhari Vol. 5, Bk. 58, No. 199)

                          “Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: The prophet used to stand by a stem of a date-palm tree (while delivering a Khutba). When the pulpit was placed for him we heard that stem crying like a pregnant she-camel till the prophet got down from the pulpit and place his hand over it.” (Bukhari Vol. 2, Bk. 13, No. 41)

                          Trees don't speak with sound. But if Allah chooses, through karamat (miracles), we will be able to hear them. The Prophet :saw: was able to perceive the speech of trees with clarity, even though trees don't speak with sound. In fact, we don't know how trees communicate.

                          In the future stones will speak to us

                          “Narrated Abdullah bin Umar: Allah’s messenger said, ‘You (i.e. Muslims) will fight against the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, ‘O Abdallah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ In another quotation: ‘The hour will not come until you fight against Jews.’” (Bukhari Vol. 4, Bk. 52, No. 176)

                          Stones don't speak with sound. But if Allah chooses, through karamat (miracles), we will be able to hear them. There will come a time when our Ummah will able to perceive the speech of stones with clarity, even though rocks don't speak with sound. In fact, we don't know how stones communicate.

                          In conclusion, even though ants, trees and rocks are able to communicate to human beings, it doesn't mean their speech is like the Speech of human beings. But our perception may be as such if so Allah wills.

                          We don't know how Allah Speaks. All we can say is, Allah Speaks in a manner that befits His Majesty.. The scholars of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah have concluded that the Speech of Allah is uncreated, in refutation of the Mutazilah, who believed that the Speech of Allah was created.

                          Just as Solomon had no difficult hearing the Ant, the Prophet, saw, and no difficult hearing the tree, and the future Muslim will have no difficult hearing the rocks or stones. Just as Musa had no difficulty hearing Allah Subhana wa ta ala.

                          This is like when the Prophet, (saw), compared our seeing of Allah and our seeing of the moon. The Comparison isn't comparing Allah and the Moon, thus no tashbih (similarity), it is comparing our "seeing" of Allah to our "seeing" of the moon. Comparing our ability to see. I too am not comparing Allah to creation when I say, Solomon heard the Ant, the Prophet heard, the Tree, the future will hear the stone and Musa heard Allah. I am comparing our "hearing", our ability to hear.

                          Abu Hurayrah relates: They (the Companions of the Prophet) said: O Messenger of Allaah, will we be able to see our Lord on the Day of Judgement? He replied: “Do you have any difficulty in seeing the sun at noon when there is no cloud over it?” They said: No. He again said: “Do you have any difficulty in seeing the moon on the fourteenth night when there is no cloud over it?” They said: No. Thereupon he said: “By Allaah Who is the One in Whose Hand is my life, you will not face any more difficulty in seeing your Lord than you face in seeing one of them.” (Muslim)

                          In conclusion:

                          We don't say, Allah speaks from eternity, because we do not delve into the howness of Allah's Speech. Rather we say, Allah's Speech is an Attribute of His, which has no beginning nor end, uncreated. We believe Allah's Speech can be heard and understood as Musa heard and understood Allah when He spoke to Musa, but we do not believe Allah Speech is like the Speech of creation in anyway.

                          "There is absolutely nothing like Him, yet He Hears and Sees." (42:11)

                          And Allah knows best.
                          JazakumAllahu khayran, your comments were very informative.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

                            If it’s wished...
                            It is insha'Allah, jazakumAllahu khayran.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                              Barakallahu fik, dear brother.
                              Don't say:
                              برك الله فيك
                              "Barak Allaahu Feek"




                              Instead say:
                              بارك الله فيك
                              "Baarak Allaahu Feek"

                              The first one: has meanings that are completely far from what the speaker would intend to say, some which cannot be attributed to Allaah!

                              The second one means: May Allaah bless you

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                                The problem is that people like him have a completely wrong mindset. For them what is important is "to refute Ash'aris" no matter what and for the sake of this they will speak regarding Allah ta’ala in a manner as if they are speaking about the guy next door and are even ready to say disrespectful statements regarding the Lord of the Worlds.
                                They clearly lack the proper decorum and veneration for the One who created them and the feeling of servanthood towards Him.
                                If you don't know it, then just write that you don't know the answer. I know how (ridicously) the Asharis and Maturidis did answer my question that i have kept you asking and asking.

                                Seemingly you are not well versed in your own aqidah. I think you guys are not well versed enough in Ashaari aqidah to make munaadhara with me on these topics. I think most Ashari's are like you. First you need to do your homework man.

                                By the way about beating your head with my shoes, i was hinting at the words of Ibn Taymiyyah rahimullaah wanting tot beat the head of al-Razi with his staff. It was narrated by al-Sanusi (the Ashari) in praise of Ibn Taymiyyah.
                                Last edited by maturidee; 04-01-21, 02:32 AM.

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