Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

    I believe that God is al real entity with a real essense, a real hajm, and not just a concept in the mind. He can be seen with the vision of the eyes in a direction.
    By the way the affirmation of Hajm is disbelief. But I appreciate you being honest with us as to what you believe.

    Ignoring that, I just want to ask you, do you believe that for something to exist it must have a size e.g. a length, width, depth etc.? So it is necessary for something to be physically limited and bounded to exist?

    This is known as physicalism.

    Such a thing cannot be proven rationally, and in that is its disproof as rational necessity requires the non-being of something to lead to a contradiction. Asserting a contradiction where there is none is a contradiction in and of itself. We can do this with anything, e.g. I tell you "1 + 1 is contradictory" - making the non-contradictory into a contradiction is a contradiction.

    Physicalism states that all things that exist are necessarily physical i.e. it is rationally impossible for something non-physical to exist. Therefore the existance of such a thing must lead to contradiction. Yet we can actually prove by first principles the existance of such a thing (Allah Azza Wa Jal who is more real than anything around you) as a rational necessity. The statement that something much less possible but actually necessary is impossible, is in itself a contradiction. It is literally the same thing as saying "1+1 is a contradiction".

    So physicalism is disproven by reason.

    By the way, atheists and other materialists are generally the people who believe in physicalism. So if you believe in Physicalism you share your belief with the atheist.


    The follower of Muqatil is in reality a Jahmi and the follower of Jahm is in reality a Muqatili.

    For the follower of Muqatil makes Ta'til of Allah believing it necessary to think he is as his creation - in one place - nothing transcends the creation, thinking it is necessary the attributes are like the attributes of the creation, and the follower of Jahm makes Tasbih of Allah believing it necessary to think he is as his creation - in every place
    - nothing transcends the creation, rejecting the attributes as they think it is necessary the attributes are like the attributes of creation.

    They believe the same thing. They both perform Ta'til and Tasbih. They both reject the Tanzih of Allah. They both think the attributes if affirmed are physicallities. They both deny the attributes.

    Ahlul Biddah are one.
    Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
    "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
    Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

    Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
    1/116

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
      Ignoring that, I just want to ask you, do you believe that for something to exist it must have a size e.g. a length, width, depth etc.? So it is necessary for something to be physically limited and bounded to exist?
      This is delving into its howness. No one of the Salaf did it. Hypothetically as one of the scholars of the Sunnah said: Allaah could if He wished settle Himself on the back of a mosquito, and the mosquito could carry Him by His (i.e. Allaah's) Might and Power.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

        By the way the affirmation of Hajm is disbelief. But I appreciate you being honest with us as to what you believe.
        It's not, with the correct intend as i mentioned, and Ashaaris did also relate it is not disbelief.

        Statements of Ash'ari and Maturidi scholars on the usage of the word "jism", and if purely for argument's sake, Ibn Taymiyyah permitted the use of the word "jism" (which is completely untrue and false), then what is the most that could be said?:

        From al-Eejee in his al-Mawaqif:

        So the Karraamiyyah, that is, some of them, said, "He is a jism (body), meaning, existent (mawjood)". And (another) people amongst them said, "He is a jism (body), meaning established by Himself (qaa'imun bi-nafsihi)". So there is no dispute with them upon [either] of these two explanations except in the naming, meaning in the application of the word "al-jism" to Him.


        And from Sullam ul-Wusool of al-Mutee'i:

        As for the one who said, "He is a jism (body) but not like the [created] bodies", then he has negated [from Him] the necessities (lawaazim) of the [created] bodies, such that nothing remains from them [in relation to Allaah] except the mere naming [with al-jism]. So this, as our Shaykh has said, there is no angle for any differing in this, because nothing remains except merely naming Him with [the word] al-jism (body).


        And from Sharh ul-Aqaa'id al-Adhudiyyah of al-Dawwaaniyy:

        And in this manner does such a one negate from Him all of the special [qualities] of a [created] body (jism) until nothing remains except the mere label (ism) of a al-jism. And these [people] are not declared disbelievers, as opposed to those who are explicit in affirming jismiyyah (i.e. a body like the created bodies).


        And from the Hanafi Ash'ari scholar, Abu Ja'far al-Simnani (d. 444H), and is cited by al-Dhahabi in al-Siyar (17:540), who in turn is citing from Ibn Hazm (d. 456H):

        [Ibn Hazm]: He is Abu Ja'far al-Simnani al-Makfuf, he is the greatest of the companions of Abu Bakr al-Baqillani, and the forerunner of the Ash'arites in his time. And from his statements are: "Whoever labelled Allaah a "jism" for the purpose (of explaining) that He has attributes in His essence, then he is correct in the meaning, but has erred in the labelling (tasmiyah) only."
        Last edited by maturidee; 31-12-20, 01:50 PM.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

          This is delving into its howness. No one of the Salaf did it. Hypothetically as one of the scholars of the Sunnah said: Allaah could if He wished settle Himself on the back of a mosquito, and the mosquito could carry Him by His (i.e. Allaah's) Might and Power.
          This guy seems to be some islamophobic enemy of Islam posing as a Muslim or convincing himself to be a Muslim!

          First he affirms a size for God and claims that this is what Muslims believe and now he insults Allah ta'ala! This is clear disbelief and apostasy!

          Can someone from the mods please check his account and see whether he's not that known disbeliever, who every now and then makes a new account.
          Him mixing up the word "Jism" and the word "Hajm" seems to be suspicious to me and shows him not understanding Arabic.

          I think his name was "Terkenal" and he had also other accounts. One time he would show himself as an atheist another time as a Muslim (someone even mentioned that he had account as a Hindu, if I remember correctly), but in all these cases he would make sure to attack Islam and lie.
          He also would mention a lot of Islamic sources, but either distort their meaning or quote from heretics and then boldly claim "this is what Islam teaches".
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 31-12-20, 02:08 PM.

          Comment


          • The statement in reference was quoted by Shaykh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah from 'Uthmaan ibn Saʻeed Ad-Daarimi.

            Shaykh
            Ibn Taymiyyah said in his book Bayaan Talbees Al-Jahmiyyah:


            "‘Uthmaan ibn Saʻeed Ad-Daarimi said in refutation of Al-Mareesi and his companion, 'Stranger than all this is the analogy you make to determine the size of Allaah by measuring the Throne in terms of weight and volume, claiming like a blind boy that if Allaah was bigger, smaller, or the same size as the Throne ... Had Allaah willed, He would have settled on the back of a mosquito and it (the mosquito) would have found Him light (or it would have carried Him on its back) by His power and the subtlety of His Lordship. How then would it be on a magnificent Throne bigger than the heavens and earth..."

            It is clear from this quotation that Ad-Daarimi intended by his statement to underline that Allaah, the Exalted, is in no need of the Throne or anything else; rather, He is in no need of the worlds and there is no doubt that He is All-Powerful and nothing can challenge Him in the earth or heavens.

            Comment


            • As for Allah being a real and existant entity we all of course believe this, although we would go further and say he is the necessary existant (al-wajib al-wujud), i.e. it is a contradiction for him to not exist and so his non-existance is rationally impossible.

              The difference between us is that we affirm a truly existant and transcendent God (not just some abstract concept in our mind), which definitely exists, whereas you seem to affirm a possibly existant and imminant being you think is divine (and this is a concept in your mind and we don't know for certain if it actually exists).

              What is the difference between an abstract concept and something that actually exists?

              Something that actually exists can be perceived if all lack of perception, barriers (physical/non-physical) etc. are removed. Allah the transcendent can be seen if he so wills for you to see him (lifting the veil), so he is not just a conceptual abstract thing we invent in our minds - he is a real and existant entity, one of a kind, the only necessary existance and there is nothing comparable to him. It is impossible to describe his Dhat. He is an entity (thing) unlike all other things.

              As for seeing him in a direction, you can be faced in any direction when you see him and Allah revealed himself to the mountain. Naturally the human being's face will be in a direction, this does not mean Allah is any direction. When Allah lifts the veil for all of creation, then all of creation can see him, and the various creations can be physically facing any direction. If Allah created a perfect sphere and revealed himself to it, then it would not be facing any direction yet it would see Allah.

              (I should add the perception of Allah is only ever a limited perception, it is impossible for the creation to fully grasp and comprehend his Dhat).


              Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
              "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
              Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

              Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
              1/116

              Comment


              • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                This is delving into its howness. No one of the Salaf did it. Hypothetically as one of the scholars of the Sunnah said: Allaah could if He wished settle Himself on the back of a mosquito, and the mosquito could carry Him by His (i.e. Allaah's) Might and Power.
                No its not delving into howness, you are delving into howness by affirming physicallity for him. We affirm that we cannot comprehend him so we do not delve in howness.

                You quote Uthman bin Sa'id's statement as one of the statements of a scholar of the Sunnah? The statement is clear cut disbelief. Uthman bin Sa'id is a questionable figure, with contradicting information regarding him. At worst he is a Karrami anthropomorphist and at best his works were tampered with. Wasil bin 'Ata was also from the Salaf, so quoting someone early does not mean that person is truthful as there were innovators amongst the later generations of the Salaf.

                In fact Abu Sa'id Uthman bin Sa'id ad-Darimi at worst, could theoretically be something more wretched than a disbeliever.

                Do you know who Abdullah bin Sa'id and Sa'id bin Sa'id are?
                Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 31-12-20, 02:44 PM.
                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                1/116

                Comment


                • __________

                  Open disbelief and paganism found in "al-Naqdh 'ala Bishr al-Marisi"!


                  There is a book which is named as al-Naqdh 'ala Bishr al-Marisi (see also HERE). It's ascribed to 'Uthman bin Sa'id al-Darimi (d. 280 AH), who was a scholar of Hadith (not to be mistaken with Imam al-Darimi [al-Samarqandi] (d. 255 AH), who was the author of Sunan al-Darimi).
                  It should be noted here that the transmission chain of this book contains several unknown persons, so that the content can not be ascribed with certainty to 'Uthman bin Sa'id. What is also suspicious is that this book contains very obvious Karrami creedal statements, while 'Uthman bin Sa'id had expelled Ibn Karram (d. 255 AH) - the founder of the Karramiyya - from Herat.
                  I would be not surprised if these Karrami Mujassima put it into his mouth, considering that their evilness was to such an extent that they even poisoned Imam Ibn Furak (d. 406 AH).

                  As far as I know this book was not quoted - nor even mentioned - in early sources (correct me if I'm wrong) and somehow Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) got hold of a copy of it and started to regard it as one of the best creedal books ever and this while this book contains open disbelief, paganism and anthropomorphism.

                  If one reads the title of the book one may think that it's an response against Bishr al-Marisi - one of the leaders of the Mu'tazila -, but the issue is not like this! The book "refutes" innovation with even greater innovation and even outright disbelief and disrespect towards Allah ta'ala!

                  Note that disbelief remains disbelief no matter who utters it!:
                  Whosoever is pleased with the creed that shall be quoted or tries to spread it among the people or prints it in order to call the people towards it has fallen into disbelief. Whosoever dies upon this creed has died upon disbelief!

                  Some of the quotes are translated by me and some of them by others (but the sources are not online anymore, so I can't link to them).


                  These are some of the examples of clear Tashbih and Kufr from the above mentioned book:

                  - "god" has a physical distance to his creation [and is in the above direction of it]:

                  فقال: ألا ترى أنه من صعد الجبل لا يقال له إنه أقرب إلى الله.
                  فيقال لهذا المعارض المدعي ما لا علم له: من أنبأك أن رأس الجبل ليس بأقرب إلى الله تعالى من أسفله لأنه من آمن بأن الله فوق عرشه فوق سماواته علم يقينا أن رأس الجبل أقرب إلى الله من أسفله وأن السماء السابعة أقرب إلى عرش الله تعالى من السادسة والسادسة أقرب إليه من الخامسة ثم كذلك إلى الأرض. كذلك روى إسحاق بن إبراهيم الحنظلي عن ابن المبارك أنه قال: رأس المنارة أقرب إلى الله من أسفلها. وصدق ابن المبارك لأن كل ما كان إلى السماء أقرب كان إلى الله أقرب، وقرب الله إلى جميع خلقه أقصاهم وأدناهم واحد لا يبعد عنه شيء من خلقه وبعض الخلق أقرب من بعض على نحو ما فسرنا من أمر السموات والأرض وكذلك قرب الملائكة من الله فحملة العرش أقرب إليه من جميع الملائكة الذين في السموات والعرش أقرب إليه من السماء السابعة


                  "He [al-Marīsi] said: “Don’t you see that you cannot say that whoever went up on a mountain is closer to Allah.” It should be said to this objector who claims that about which he has no knowledge: Who told you that the top of the mountain is not nearer to Allah than the bottom of it? Because those who believe that Allah is above His Throne and above His skies know for certain that the top of the mountain is closer to the sky than the bottom of it and that the seventh sky is closer to the Throne of Allah than the sixth, and that the sixth is closer to it than the fifth and so on down to the earth. Similarly, Ishāq ibn Ibrahīm al-Hanzali [ibn Rahaweh (d. 238)] reported that Ibn al-Mubārak said: “The top of the minaret is closer to Allah than the bottom of it.” Ibn al-Mubārak told the truth for whatever is closer to the sky is closer to Allah.
                  Notwithstanding, Allah is close to all His creation the near and the far and He is not far away from anything in His creation. Yet some of His creation is closer to Him than other as we explained about the skies and the earth. Likewise, with His angels, for the bearers of the Throne are closer to Him than all the [other] angels that are in the seventh sky.
                  "
                  - end of the quote -

                  (Note: The scholar whom he cites towards the end did not say what he claimed.)


                  - "god" has a place (Makan):

                  وأما قولك إن الله لم يصف نفسه أنه في موضع دون موضع، فإن كنت أيها المعارض ممن يقرأ كتاب الله ويفهم شيئا من العربية علمت أنك كاذب على الله في دعواك لأنه وصف أنه في موضع دون موضع ومكان دون مكان ذكر أنه فوق العرش والعرش فوق السموات وقد عرف ذلك كثير من النساء والصبيان فكيف من الرجال

                  "As for your statement that Allah has not described himself with being in one location (Mawdhi') without another one: If you, o opponent, are from those who read the book of Allah and understand a little bit of Arabic, then you would've known that you're lying about Allah with your claim, because He has [indeed] described Himself with being in one location without another location and in one place (Makan) without another place. He mentioned that He's above the throne, and the throne is above the heavens and this is something that many of the women and children know, so what about the men?"
                  - end of the quote -

                  لأنا قد أينا له مكانا واحدا، أعلى مكان وأطهر مكان وأشرف مكان على عرشه العظيم المقدس المجيد فوق السماء السابعة العليا حيث ليس معه هناك إنس ولا جان

                  "Because we've given Him one place (Makan), the most high, most pure and most noble place upon his great, holy and glorious throne, above the seventh heaven where there is no human or Jinn with him."
                  - end of the quote -

                  There are many such passages where "god" is explicitly described with having a place. The above two quotes however should be enough.


                  - "god" has limits:

                  وادعى المعارض أيضا أنه ليس لله حد ولا غاية ولا نهاية وهذا هو الأصل الذي بنى عليه جهم جميع ضلالاته واشتق منها أغلوطاته وهي كلمة لم يبلغنا أنه سبق جهما إليها أحد من العالمين. فقال له قائل ممن يحاوره: قد علمت مرادك بها أيها الأعجمي وتعني أن الله لا شيء، لأن الخلق كلهم علموا أنه ليس شيء يقع عليه اسم الشيء إلا وله حد وغاية وصفة وأن لا شيء ليس له حد ولا غاية ولا صفة، فالشيء أبدا موصوف لا محالة ولا شيء يوصف بلا حد ولا غاية، وقولك لا حد له يعني أنه لا شيء.
                  قال أبو سعيد: والله تعالى له حد لا يعلمه أحد غيره ولا يجوز لأحد أن يتوهم لحده غاية في نفسه ولكن يؤمن بالحد ويكل علم ذلك إلى الله ولمكانه أيضا حد وهو على عرشه فوق سماواته؛ فهذان حدان اثنان


                  "The opponent also claimed that Allah does not possess a Hadd (limit), Ghayah (restriction), or Nihayah (end). He said: And this is the basis upon which Jahm (ibn Safwan) built his misguidance and derived all of his errors. It has not reached us that anyone besides Jahm in the world preceded him with it. Someone who was discussing this with him (Jahm) said to him: I have come to know your intent oh non-Arab. You intend that Allah is nothing, because all of the creation have known that there is nothing that is called a “thing” except that it has a Hadd (limit), a Ghayah (restriction) and an attribute, and that what has no limit, restriction or attribute is nothingness.
                  So that which is a “thing” must necessarily be described with attributes. Nothingness is described with no limit or restriction. Your statement: He has no limit means that He is nothing.”
                  Abu Sa’id (al-Darimi) states:
                  Allah Ta’ala has a limit that no one knows but Him and it is not allowed for anyone to imagine a limit to His limit in himself, however, he is to believe in the limit and relegate the knowledge of that to Allah. His place (Makan) also has a limit and He is upon His ‘Arsh above the seven heavens- so these are two limits.
                  "
                  - end of the quote -

                  (Note: This statement is in direct opposition to what we find in the 'Aqida al-Tahawiyya, which has been accepted by the scholars of Ahl al-Sunna in general.)


                  - "god" moves, sits and stands:

                  لأن الحي القيوم يفعل ما يشاء ويتحرك إذا شاء ويهبط ويرتفع إذا شاء ويقبض ويبسط ويقوم ويجلس إذا شاء، لأن أمارة ما بين الحي والميت التحرك: كل حي متحرك لا محالة وكل ميت غير متحرك لا محالة

                  "Because the Living the Sustainer does as He wills: He moves as He wills, and He descends and ascends as He wills, and He extends [His hand] as He wills and stands and sits as He wills, for the criterion that distinguishes the living from the dead is movement: every live thing moves of necessity and every dead thing does not move of necessity."
                  - end of the quote -


                  - When "god" sits upon the Kursi there remains a space of four fingers on it:

                  إن كرسيه وسع السماوات والأرض وإنه ليقعد عليه فما يفضل منه إلا قدر أربع أصابع ومد أصابعه وإن له أطيطا كأطيط الرحل الجديد إذا ركبه من يثقله

                  "“Verily, His chair can hold the skies and the earth, and verily He sits down on it and there is no space left over in it except the space of four fingers,” and he extended his four fingers. “And [the chair] makes a sound like that of a new saddle when someone sits on it with his weight.”"
                  - end of the quote -

                  (Note: This is part of a [wrong] narration that he cites as a proof against his opponent.)


                  - When "god" sits on the throne it makes a sound, because of his weight:

                  وروى المعارض أيضا عن الشعبي أنه قد ملأ العرش حتى إن له أطيطا كأطيط الرحل. ثم فسر قول الشعبي أنه قد ملأه آلاء ونعما حتى إن له أطيطا ... فيقال لهذا المعارض: ... ويلك فإن لم يكن على العرش بزعمك إلا آلاؤه ونعماؤه وأمره فما بال العرش يتأطط من الآلاء والنعماء؟ لكأنها عندك أعكام الحجارة والصخور والحديد فيتأطط منها العرش ثقلا، إنما الآلاء طبائع أو صنائع ليس لها ثقل ولا أجسام يتأطط منها العرش

                  "The opponent has also reported from al-Sha'bi [who said] that He (Allah) has filled the throne and that [the throne] makes a sound like the sound of a saddle [when someone sits on it]. Then he interpretated the statement of al-Sha'bi [by saying], that [the throne] was filled by the grace and favor [of Allah]....
                  It is said to this opponent: ... Woe to you! If there is nothing on the throne - in your claim - other than the grace and favor [of Allah] and His command, then is it that the throne is making a sound from the grace and favor? It is as if [they are like] stones and iron to you, so that the throne makes a sound because of their weight.
                  Favors are traits and deeds which have no weight (Thiql) and they're not bodies which could cause the throne to make a sound.
                  "
                  - end of the quote -

                  (Note: The statement that is ascribed to the Tabi'i is a lie against him as was mentioned by Imam Ibn al-Jawzi (d. 597 AH) in his Daf' Shubah al-Tashbih.)


                  - "god" has touched Adam, peace be upon him, while creating him with his hands:

                  فيقال لهذا المريسي الجاهل بالله وبآياته: فهل علمت شيئا مما خلق الله ولي خلق ذلك غيره حتى خص آدم من بينهم أنه ولى خلقه من غير مسيس بيده، فسمّه؟ وإلا فمن ادعى أن الله لم يل خلق شيء صغير أو كبير فقد كفر. غير أنه ولي خلق الأشياء بأمره وقوله وإرادته وولي خلق آدم بيده مسيسا: لم يخلق ذا روح بيديه غيره فلذلك خصه وفضله وشرف بذلك ذكره، لولا ذلك ما كانت له فضيلة من ذلك على شيء من خلقه إذ خلقهم بغير مسيس في دعواك
                  - end of the quote -


                  - "god" may rest/sit upon the back of a mosquito:

                  إن الله أعظم من كل شيء وأكبر من كل خلق ولم يحتمله العرش عظما ولا قوة، ولا حملة العرش احتملوه بقوتهم ولا استقلوا بعرشه بشدة أسرهم ولكنهم حملوه بقدرته ومشيئته وإرادته وتأييده لولا ذلك ما أطاقوا حمله. وقد بلغنا أنهم حين حملوا العرش وفوقه الجبار في عزته وبهائه ضعفوا عن حمله واستكانوا وجثوا على ركبهم حتى لقنوا لا حول ولا قوة إلا بالله فاستقلوا به بقدرة الله وإرادته لولا ذلك ما استقل به العرش ولا الحملة ولا السموات والأرض ولا من فيهن ولو قد شاء لاستقر على ظهر بعوضة فاستقلت به بقدرته ولطف ربوبيته فكيف على عرش عظيم أكبر من السموات السبع والأرضين السبع وكيف ينكر أيها النفاج أن عرشه يقله والعرش أكبر من السموات السبع والأرضين السبع ولو كان العرش في السموات والأرضين ما وسعته ولكنه فوق السماء السابعة.
                  فكيف تنكر هذا وأنت تزعم أن الله في الأرض وفي جميع أمكنتها والأرض دون العرش في العظمة والسعة فكيف تقله الأرض في دعواك ولا يقله العرش الذي أعظم منها وأوسع؟


                  "Verily, Allah is greater than all things and bigger than all creation, and the throne is not carrying Him by [its] glory and strength, nor are the carriers of the throne carrying it by their strength, nor could they bear His throne; but they carried it by His power. It has reached us that when they carried the throne, and above it was the Almighty, in His glory and His splendor, they became weak from carrying it, and they became lowly, and knelt down on their knees, until they were taught to read: ‘There is no power, nor might, except with Allah.’ Then, they bore it by the power of Allah and His will. And if it were not for that, the throne would not be able to bear Him (i.e. Allah), nor the carriers [of the throne], nor the heavens, nor the earth, nor those in them.
                  Had He willed, He would have settled on the back of a mosquito, so it would bear Him, by His power and the subtlety of His Lordship. Thus, what of the great throne, that is bigger than the heavens and the earth? And how do you deny, O vain one, that His throne bears Him, when the throne is bigger than the seven heavens and the seven earths? And had the throne been in the heavens and the earth, they would not have contained it, but it is above the seventh heaven. So how can you deny this, when you claim that Allah is in the earth in all its places, yet the earth is less than the throne in greatness and vastness. So how is it that the earth bears Him according to your claim, but the throne which is greater and more vast than it does not?

                  - end of the quote -

                  The above should be enough.

                  Just because the Mu'attila went to one extreme it does not justify to go to the another extreme.
                  The above descriptions are in no way from the attributes of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala or from the belief of the people of Islam regarding the Bari subhanahu wa ta'ala.
                  These descriptions are from the beliefs of the pagans regarding their imaginary "gods". We ask Allah ta'ala for well-being and safety.

                  __________


                  Note: The grandmaster of the so called "Salafis" (i.e. Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH)) and his foremost student praised this accursed book like no other as can be seen HERE.
                  Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 31-12-20, 02:47 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post


                    - "god" has limits:

                    وادعى المعارض أيضا أنه ليس لله حد ولا غاية ولا نهاية وهذا هو الأصل الذي بنى عليه جهم جميع ضلالاته واشتق منها أغلوطاته وهي كلمة لم يبلغنا أنه سبق جهما إليها أحد من العالمين. فقال له قائل ممن يحاوره: قد علمت مرادك بها أيها الأعجمي وتعني أن الله لا شيء، لأن الخلق كلهم علموا أنه ليس شيء يقع عليه اسم الشيء إلا وله حد وغاية وصفة وأن لا شيء ليس له حد ولا غاية ولا صفة، فالشيء أبدا موصوف لا محالة ولا شيء يوصف بلا حد ولا غاية، وقولك لا حد له يعني أنه لا شيء.
                    قال أبو سعيد: والله تعالى له حد لا يعلمه أحد غيره ولا يجوز لأحد أن يتوهم لحده غاية في نفسه ولكن يؤمن بالحد ويكل علم ذلك إلى الله ولمكانه أيضا حد وهو على عرشه فوق سماواته؛ فهذان حدان اثنان


                    "The opponent also claimed that Allah does not possess a Hadd (limit), Ghayah (restriction), or Nihayah (end). He said: And this is the basis upon which Jahm (ibn Safwan) built his misguidance and derived all of his errors. It has not reached us that anyone besides Jahm in the world preceded him with it. Someone who was discussing this with him (Jahm) said to him: I have come to know your intent oh non-Arab. You intend that Allah is nothing, because all of the creation have known that there is nothing that is called a “thing” except that it has a Hadd (limit), a Ghayah (restriction) and an attribute, and that what has no limit, restriction or attribute is nothingness.
                    So that which is a “thing” must necessarily be described with attributes. Nothingness is described with no limit or restriction. Your statement: He has no limit means that He is nothing.”
                    Abu Sa’id (al-Darimi) states:
                    Allah Ta’ala has a limit that no one knows but Him and it is not allowed for anyone to imagine a limit to His limit in himself, however, he is to believe in the limit and relegate the knowledge of that to Allah. His place (Makan) also has a limit and He is upon His ‘Arsh above the seven heavens- so these are two limits.
                    "
                    - end of the quote -

                    (Note: This statement is in direct opposition to what we find in the 'Aqida al-Tahawiyya, which has been accepted by the scholars of Ahl al-Sunna in general.)
                    AL-HADD (الحد)


                    * The intent behind the term “Al-Hadd” is that Allah is distinct and separate (bā’in) from the creation – and this is a refutation of the Jahmiyyah who propagate the notion of the unity of existence (wahdatul-wujood), i.e. that Allah is one with the creation and that He is in every place. Abdullāh Ibn Al-Mubārak (d. 181H) said: “We know our Lord, the Mighty and Majestic, is above the Seven Heavens, over His Throne, separate (bā’in بائن) from the creation with a limit (bi-haddin بحد) – and we do not say as the Jahmiyyah say, that He is here” – and Ibn Al-Mubārak pointed to the earth.”

                    Imām Ismā`eel Ibn Muhammad Ibn Al-Fadl Al-Asbahānee (rahimahullāh) said: “The people of verification and insight have discussed the explanation of ‘Al-Hadd’ (الحد) with various expressions. And what is attained from these expressions is: that Al-Hadd is every thing whose place is separate and distinct from another. So if the intent of the one who says that “there is no limit for Allah”, is that the knowledge of the created beings cannot encompass Him, then he would be correct. And if his intent by this is that Allah’s knowledge cannot encompass Himself, then such a person is astray.” (Kitāb Ithbāt Al-Hadd of Ad-Dashtee, p. 121) I (Shaikh Ali Nāsir) say: This is the meaning of the saying of the Salaf concerning every matter of “how the Attributes of Allah are” – and that is none knows the “how” except Allah. And upon the Muslim is to affirm the Attributes as they are mentioned in the Book and Sunnah and to have imān in them.

                    Ad-Dashtee in his book “Ithbāt al-Hadd lillaahi” brought citations from the Salaf in clarification of what they intended by this term (al-Hadd), so he said: “The madhhab of the scholars of the Salaf was that Allah is the Al-Awwal Al-Qadeem (The First, Ever Living without beginning) and He has a hadd not known to other than Him. However it is not for any person to speculate concerning the degree/extent of His hadd. Rather it is simply upon the people to believe in that and leave the knowledge of this matter to Allah, the Most High.”

                    Ahlus-Sunnah say: Allah in His perfection is above His Throne, He knows and hears from above His Throne – nothing of His creation is hidden to Him; nothing is veiled from Him; His knowledge of the creation is from above the Throne and His penetrating sight encompasses them all. Allah, the Most High, said:

                    وَسِعَ رَبِّي كُلَّ شَيْءٍ عِلْمًا ۗ

                    “My Lord comprehends in His Knowledge all things.”

                    (Al-An`ām: 80) and He did not say: “By His Essence.”

                    الرَّحْمَٰنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَىٰ

                    “The Most Beneficent ascended over the Throne.”

                    (Taha: 5)

                    وَهُوَ الْقَاهِرُ فَوْقَ عِبَادِهِ

                    “And He is the Irresistible, above His slaves…”

                    (Al-An`ām: 18, 61)

                    إِلَيْهِ يَصْعَدُ الْكَلِمُ الطَّيِّبُ

                    “To Him ascend all the goodly words.”

                    (Fātir: 10)

                    إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

                    “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself…”

                    (Āli `Imrān: 55)

                    تَعْرُجُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ

                    “The angels and the Ruh [Jibreel] ascend to Him…”

                    (Al-Ma`ārij: 4)

                    يَخَافُونَ رَبَّهُم مِّن فَوْقِهِمْ

                    (An-Nahl: 50)

                    Thereafter he brings hadeeth narrations with this same meaning, and citations from the Imāms until he mentions this narration of Al-Harawee. He brings this narration from him mentioning the chapter that Al-Harawee himself brings and that is: “Affirming Al-Hadd for Allah, the Mighty and Majestic” for the purpose of clarifying the intent of the Salaf regarding that. See the preserved photocopies at the Islamic University of Madinah Munawwarah: pages 121-122, 129-130: compilation no. 68.

                    Comment


                    • Aqidah Books Authored by the Salaf. The Ash'arites dismiss and turn a blind eye to the authoring of works by the Salaf in the second, third and fourth centuries (150H-400H) and in their spurious claim of orthodoxy they overwhelmingly point to works and authorities after 400H, when the later Asharites reverted to the ways of the Jahmiyyah and Mutazilah and left the way of Ibn Kullab and al-Ash'ari.


                      -Kitāb al-Ṣifāt of Ḥammād bin Salamah (d. 167H)
                      -Imām ʿAbd Allāh bin al-Mubārak (d. 181H)
                      -Yahyā bin Saʿīd al-Qaṭṭān al-Baṣrī (d. 198H)
                      -Uṣūl al-Sunnah of al-Ḥāfidh al-Ḥumaydī (d. 220H)
                      -Kitāb al-Īmān by the Imām, Abū ʿUbayd al-Qāsim bin Sallām (d. 224H)
                      -Nuʿaym bin Ḥammād (d. 228H) who authored 13 books in refutation of the Jahmiyyah.
                      Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah of ʿAbd Allāh bin Muhammad al-Jaʿfī (d.
                      229H) the Shaykh of al-Bukhārī99
                      -Kitāb ul-Īmān by the Imām Ibn Abī Shaybah (d. 235H)
                      -Muḥammad bin Isḥāq Ibn Rāhūyah (d. 238H)100
                      -Kitāb al-Ḥaydah101 by ʿAbd al-ʿAzīz al-Kinānī (d. 240H), the associate of Imām al-Shāfiʿī.
                      -Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah wal-Zanādiqah of Imām Ahmad (d. 241H)
                      -ʿUṣūl al-Sunnah by Imām Aḥmad bin Ḥanbal (d. 241H)
                      -Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by Muḥammad bin Aslam al-Ṭūsī (d. 242H)102
                      -Kitāb al-Istiqāmah103 by al-Ḥāfidh Abū ʿĀṣim Khasīsh bin Aṣram (d.253H), the Shaykh of Abū Dāwūd and al-Nasā'ī
                      -Khalq Afʿāl al-ʿIbād by Imām al-Bukhārī (d. 256H)
                      -Kitāb al-Īmān in the Ṣaḥīḥ by Imām al-Bukhārī (d. 256H)
                      -Kitāb al-Tawḥīd in the Ṣaḥīḥ by Imām al-Bukhārī (d. 256H)
                      -Al-Sunnah by Isḥāq bin Ḥanbal (d. 273H)104
                      -Al-Sunnah by the student of Imām Aḥmad, Abū Bakr al-Athram (d.273H)
                      -Kitāb al-Sunnah in the Sunan by the Faqīh and Īmām Abū Dāwūd al -Sijistānī (d. 275H)
                      -Bāb Fī al-Jahmiyyah in the Sunan by Abū Dāwūd al -Sijistānī (d. 275H)
                      -Bāb Fī al-Irjā' in the Sunan by Abū Dāwūd al -Sijistānī (d. 275H)
                      -Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by Imām Ibn Qutaybah (d. 276H)105
                      -Aṣl al-Sunnah by the hāfidh and Imām, Abū Hātim al-Rāzī (d. 277H)
                      -Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by the Hāfidh and Muḥaddith ʿUthmān bin Saʿīd al-Dārimī (d. 280H)
                      -Al-Radd ʿalā Bishr al-Marīsī also by al-Dārimī (d. 280H)
                      -Risālah Fī Ann al-Qurʾān Ghayr Makhlūq by al-Ḥāfidh Ibrāhīm al-Ḥarbī (d. 285H)
                      -Al-Sunnah by the Qāḍī and Ḥāfidh, Ibn Abī ʿĀṣim (d. 287H)
                      -Al-Sunnah by the Ḥāfidh, ʿAbd Allāh bin Imām Aḥmad (d. 290H)
                      -Al-Sunnah by the Qāḍī, Muḥaddith Abū Bakr al-Marrūdhī (d. 292H)
                      Al-Sunnah by the student of Imām Ahmad, al-Marwazī (d. 292H)
                      -Al-Sunnah by al-Ḥakam bin Maʿbad al-Khuzāʿī 106 (d. 295H), the Muḥaddith and Ḥanafī faqīh
                      -Ṣarīh al-Sunnah by the Mufassir, Imām, Ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī (d. 310H)
                      -Tabṣīr Fī Maʿālim al-Dīn by Ibn Jarīr al-Ṭabarī (d. 310H)
                      -Kitāb al-Tawhīd by the faqīh and Imām, Ibn Khuzaymah (d. 311H)
                      -Al-ʿAqīdat al-Ṭaḥāwiyyah107 by the Imām Abū Jaʿfar al-Tahāwī (d.321H)
                      -Al-Ibānah108 of Abū al-Ḥasan al-Ashʿarī (d. 324H)
                      -Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by Ibn Abī Ḥātim (d. 327H)109
                      -Sharh al-Sunnah by Imām al-Barbāharī (d. 329H)
                      -Kitāb al-Sunnah by the Qāḍī, Abū Aḥmad al-ʿAsāl (d. 349H)
                      -Al-Sharī'ah by the Faqīh and Imām, Abū Bakr al-Āajurrī (d. 360H)
                      Kitāb al-Sunnah by the Imām, Abū al-Qāsim al-Ṭabarānī (d. 360H)
                      -Al-Radd ʿalal-Jahmiyyah by the Imām, Abū al-Qāsim al-Ṭabarānī (d.360H)
                      -Al-Sunnah of al-Ḥāfidh Abū al-Shaykh al-Aṣbahānī (d. 369H)110
                      -Kitāb al-Ṣifāt by the Ḥāfidh, Abū al-Ḥasan ʿAlī al-Dārquṭnī (d. 385H)
                      -Kitāb al-Nuzūl by the Ḥāfidh, Abū al-Ḥasan ʿAlī al-Dārquṭnī (d. 385H)
                      -Al-Ibaanah by Ibn Baṭṭah al-ʿUkbaree (d. 387H)
                      -Kitāb al-Īmān by the Ḥāfidh and Imam, Ibn Mandah (d. 395H)
                      -Kitāb al-Tawhīd by the Ḥāfidh and Imam, Ibn Mandah (d. 395H)
                      -Sharh usūl Iʿtiqād Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamāʿah by the Ḥāfidh andFaqīh, Imām al-Lālikā'ī (d. 418H)
                      -Kitāb al-ʿUṣūl by Abū ʿUmar al-Ṭalamankī (d. 429H)
                      -Al-Iʿtiqād by Abu Nuʿaym al-Asbahānī (d. 430H)
                      -Al-Mukhtār Fī Uṣūl al-Sunnah by the Imām Ibn al-Bannā111 (d. 471H)
                      -Aqīdah al-Salaf wa Asḥāb al-Ḥadīth by the Ḥāfidh and Imam, AbūʿUthmān al-Ṣabūnī (d. 449H)
                      -Sharh al-Sunnah of Imām al-Baghawī (d. 516H)
                      -Kitāb al-Hujjah Fī Bayān al-Mahajjah by Abū al-Qāsim Ismā'īl bin Muḥammad al-Asbahānī (d. 535H)
                      -Sharh Iʿtiqād Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jamāʿah by Abū al-Qāsim Ismā'īl bin Muḥammad al-Asbahānī (d. 535H)


                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                        AL-HADD (الحد)


                        * The intent behind the term “Al-Hadd” is that Allah is distinct and separate (bā’in) from the creation – and this is a refutation of the Jahmiyyah who propagate the notion of the unity of existence (wahdatul-wujood), i.e. that Allah is one with the creation and that He is in every place. Abdullāh Ibn Al-Mubārak (d. 181H) said: “We know our Lord, the Mighty and Majestic, is above the Seven Heavens, over His Throne, separate (bā’in بائن) from the creation with a limit (bi-haddin بحد) – and we do not say as the Jahmiyyah say, that He is here” – and Ibn Al-Mubārak pointed to the earth.”

                        Imām Ismā`eel Ibn Muhammad Ibn Al-Fadl Al-Asbahānee (rahimahullāh) said: “The people of verification and insight have discussed the explanation of ‘Al-Hadd’ (الحد) with various expressions. And what is attained from these expressions is: that Al-Hadd is every thing whose place is separate and distinct from another. So if the intent of the one who says that “there is no limit for Allah”, is that the knowledge of the created beings cannot encompass Him, then he would be correct. And if his intent by this is that Allah’s knowledge cannot encompass Himself, then such a person is astray.” (Kitāb Ithbāt Al-Hadd of Ad-Dashtee, p. 121) I (Shaikh Ali Nāsir) say: This is the meaning of the saying of the Salaf concerning every matter of “how the Attributes of Allah are” – and that is none knows the “how” except Allah. And upon the Muslim is to affirm the Attributes as they are mentioned in the Book and Sunnah and to have imān in them.

                        Ad-Dashtee in his book “Ithbāt al-Hadd lillaahi” brought citations from the Salaf in clarification of what they intended by this term (al-Hadd), so he said: “The madhhab of the scholars of the Salaf was that Allah is the Al-Awwal Al-Qadeem (The First, Ever Living without beginning) and He has a hadd not known to other than Him. However it is not for any person to speculate concerning the degree/extent of His hadd. Rather it is simply upon the people to believe in that and leave the knowledge of this matter to Allah, the Most High.”

                        Ahlus-Sunnah say: Allah in His perfection is above His Throne, He knows and hears from above His Throne – nothing of His creation is hidden to Him; nothing is veiled from Him; His knowledge of the creation is from above the Throne and His penetrating sight encompasses them all. Allah, the Most High, said:

                        وَسِعَ رَبِّي كُلَّ شَيْءٍ عِلْمًا ۗ

                        “My Lord comprehends in His Knowledge all things.”

                        (Al-An`ām: 80) and He did not say: “By His Essence.”

                        الرَّحْمَٰنُ عَلَى الْعَرْشِ اسْتَوَىٰ

                        “The Most Beneficent ascended over the Throne.”

                        (Taha: 5)

                        وَهُوَ الْقَاهِرُ فَوْقَ عِبَادِهِ

                        “And He is the Irresistible, above His slaves…”

                        (Al-An`ām: 18, 61)

                        إِلَيْهِ يَصْعَدُ الْكَلِمُ الطَّيِّبُ

                        “To Him ascend all the goodly words.”

                        (Fātir: 10)

                        إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ

                        “O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself…”

                        (Āli `Imrān: 55)

                        تَعْرُجُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ وَالرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ

                        “The angels and the Ruh [Jibreel] ascend to Him…”

                        (Al-Ma`ārij: 4)

                        يَخَافُونَ رَبَّهُم مِّن فَوْقِهِمْ

                        (An-Nahl: 50)

                        Thereafter he brings hadeeth narrations with this same meaning, and citations from the Imāms until he mentions this narration of Al-Harawee. He brings this narration from him mentioning the chapter that Al-Harawee himself brings and that is: “Affirming Al-Hadd for Allah, the Mighty and Majestic” for the purpose of clarifying the intent of the Salaf regarding that. See the preserved photocopies at the Islamic University of Madinah Munawwarah: pages 121-122, 129-130: compilation no. 68.
                        Imam Ahmad and the Salaf on Allah being without limits.


                        Imam Ahmad said, "We believe that Allah is on the Throne in the manner He wishes and however He wishes, without limit nor description anyone could give or define Him by." (Narrated by Abu Yala in Ibtal al Tawil per Ibn Taymiyyah, Bayan Tablis.)

                        Imam Ahmad commented on the verse, "And He is with you wheresoever you may be" (57:4) saying, "His knowledge. His knowledge encompasses all, and our Lord is over the Throne without limit (bila hadd) and description." (Al Dhahabi Mukhtasar al Uluw)

                        Imam Ahmad said, "Allah is not subject to change, substitution nor limits, whether before or after the creation of the Throne." (Ibn Abi Yala, Tabaqat al Hanabila)

                        Imam Ahmad said, "Allah is not to be described more than whatever He described Himself with, or His Prophet (saw) described Him with, without limit nor delimitation (bila haddin wal ghaya)." (Ibn Qudamah Dhamm al Tawil)

                        Abu Dawud said, "Sufyan al Thawri, Shu'ba, Hammad Ibn Zayd, Hammad Ibn Salama, Sharik, and Abu Awana did not hold that Allah had a limit or likeness or similitude. They would narrate the hadiths without saying 'how.' If asked, they would answer with whatever was transmitted. And this is also our position." (Al Bayhaqi, Asma wall Sifat)

                        Imam Tahawi said, "Allah Most Glorious is beyond having limits placed on Him, or having boundaries, or having parts, limbs or organs! Nor is He contained by the six directions as all created things are." (Aqida Tahawi)

                        Origin of the INNOVATION of Allah having a Limit.

                        The source of the innovation of ascribing Allah to a limit is from Uthman Ibn Said al Darimi (not the compiler of the Sunan) who said, "Allah Most High has a limit which none but He knows and it is impermissible for anyone to imagine that His limit possess boundaries." (Al Naqd)


                        And Allah knows best.
                        Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 31-12-20, 08:50 PM.
                        My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                        Comment


                        • Ahl us-Sunnah hold that Allaah has actions tied to His will and following on from that regarding the attribute of "Kalaam" (speech), Allah has always been described as "mutakallim" (one who speaks) from eternity and alongside that Allaah speaks when He wills, however He wills. And we can illustrate with just one proof that is sufficient, which is:

                          إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثِمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ

                          Verlily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. (Aali Imran 3:59)

                          Here, Allaah created him from dust and after that He said, "Be!", and so Allaah's saying "Be!" occurred after the creation of Adam from dust. So this is an instance of Allaah's speech in the Qur'aan which could not have occurred in eternity - as the Kullaabi Ash'aris say - because Aadam did not exist then, and neither did Eesaa. And it is upon this, that Ahl us-Sunnah say that Allaah's speech is tied to His will. Allaah spoke to Moses, "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." and Allaah says He will say to Hellfire "Are you filled?". So are these two instances of speech the same? No, they are said by Allaah whenever He wills. But the Kullaabi Ash'aris claim all of this was said in eternity - when there was no Aadam and no Hellfire.

                          And this poses a huge problem for them, because it means - and refuge is from Allaah - that when Allaah spoke in eternity (according to them) with His Kalaam Nafsee, "Allaah has indeed heard the saying of she who disputes ..." (Mujaadilah 58:1), it means Allaah is not telling the truth - because how can Allaah have already heard she who disputes when she who disputes is not even in existence yet? And likewise with the verse, "Allaah has indeed heard the saying of those who said, "Indeed Allaah is poor and we are rich!" (Aali Imraan 3:181) - was Allaah telling the truth in eternity, before those who said this were even created - because this is supposed to be the eternal meaning that resides with Allaah's self, and is not speech tied to Allaah's will and power, according to them. So when the Kullaabi Ash'aris deny that Allaah's speech is tied to His will, repugnant sayings and implications are necessitated by this.

                          NOW ANSWER THIS WITHOUT PLAYING HIDE AND SEEK O ABU SULAYMAN THE ULAMA OF UMMAH FORUM!

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                            NOW ANSWER THIS WITHOUT PLAYING HIDE AND SEEK O ABU SULAYMAN THE ULAMA OF UMMAH FORUM!
                            Note that the above person claimed to be a "Muhaqqiq" - just look at this great station that he ascribes to himself! - and here we see that he can't differentiate between a simple issue like the singular form and the plural form in the Arabic language. What he meant to say was "the 'Alim of ummah forum", because 'Ulama is the plural form.

                            This and his ignorance regarding the difference between the word "Jism" (=body) and the word "Hajm" (=size) indicates him being utterly ignorant of what he's saying and that he's simply copy-pasting from some worthless websites to attack Islam.
                            By the way: The word "Jism" indicates in the Arabic language formation, composition and being a person / man and in terminology it indicates composition, being a person / man and having dimensions (see here with sources: Meaning of Jism in the language and in terminology). In the terminology of the Karramiyya and the early Rafidhi Mujassima (both heretic groups!) it additionally means to exist and to be established by oneself and they added this to the terminology in order to hide their actual intention, which is that they both believed in a "God" with a height, breadth and depth and this is clear disbelief.
                            As for Hajm (=size) then it in itself means that something has a height / length, breadth / width and depth or simply say something with a volume and it's even more obvious in disbelief, because one can't even hide behind any "terminological meanings"!

                            It should be also noted that he affirmed that the thing that he worships has a size - which falls under polytheism (Shirk) because it means that he worships other than Allah ta'ala - and that he also committed blasphemy against Allah ta'ala by claiming that it's possible for Him to settle upon the back of a mosquito.
                            He also quoted a disbelieving MISSIONARY in order to attack an Islamic position regarding the divine predestination, which indicates whom he regards as his brothers in faith.

                            Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                            Ahl us-Sunnah hold that Allaah has actions tied to His will and following on from that regarding the attribute of "Kalaam" (speech), Allah has always been described as "mutakallim" (one who speaks) from eternity and alongside that Allaah speaks when He wills, however He wills.
                            Speech (Kalam) is from among the perfect attributes of Allah ta'ala and therefore eternal. Something that is eternal is NOT to be understood to be a point in time in the past, but rather OUTSIDE of time and without beginning or end.

                            Imam al-Tahawi (d. 310 AH) stated regarding our belief in Allah ta'ala the following (quoted HERE already):
                            "He has always existed with His attributes even before His creating (the world) -which did not add anything to His attributes that were not already there. As He was Pre-eternal together with His attributes, so is He Perpetual together with them."

                            As for the divine Will, then it's connected to letting those from among his creation that He chooses to hear His speech. This means that the speech itself is ETERNAL, but the hearing of the creation and their reading is emergent. So the speech of Allah ta'ala itself does not suddenly become emergent after the existence of the creation, nor does there happen any change to His divine Self or His speech.

                            As for claiming that the speech of Allah ta'ala is emergent - as modern "Salafis" claim -, then it's disbelief according to the early Muslims, because it means that one is describing the Creator with temporality (which is disbelief by agreement as mentioned by Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) and others).
                            Ash'aris and Hanbalis are both agreed upon the speech of Allah ta'ala being eternal and they only differ regarding our Lafdh (wording / reading) of the Qur`an al-karim as I've already explained more than once in this thread (like HERE).

                            Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                            And we can illustrate with just one proof that is sufficient, which is:

                            إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَى عِندَ اللّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثِمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ

                            Verlily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. (Aali Imran 3:59)

                            Here, Allaah created him from dust and after that He said, "Be!", and so Allaah's saying "Be!" occurred after the creation of Adam from dust. So this is an instance of Allaah's speech in the Qur'aan which could not have occurred in eternity - as the Kullaabi Ash'aris say - because Aadam did not exist then, and neither did Eesaa. And it is upon this, that Ahl us-Sunnah say that Allaah's speech is tied to His will. Allaah spoke to Moses, "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." and Allaah says He will say to Hellfire "Are you filled?". So are these two instances of speech the same? No, they are said by Allaah whenever He wills. But the Kullaabi Ash'aris claim all of this was said in eternity - when there was no Aadam and no Hellfire.
                            So you believe that Allah ta'ala uttered a Kaf and then a Nun and in between a damma (which forms the Arabic word "Kun") in order to create these blessed Prophets (peace be upon them)! Who from among the classical scholars of Islam agrees with such an understanding? How many percent? You really believe that the scholars of Islam thought that God's speech is like that of created beings? I mean are you that ignorant? (This is basically not that much different from saying "the Qur`an describes God with forgetting"!)
                            If you claim that the Hanabila believe this, then this is wrong because they denied Ta'aqub (following each other) of the letters in Allah's speech. And the Asha'ira deny letters in the very first place.
                            As for Allah's Speech itself, then it's eternal according to both as already clarified. He may let anyone from among His creation hear His speech in time - while His speech is eternal! - and His command leads to creation in time - and this again while His speech is eternal.

                            Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                            And this poses a huge problem for them, because it means - and refuge is from Allaah - that when Allaah spoke in eternity (according to them) with His Kalaam Nafsee, "Allaah has indeed heard the saying of she who disputes ..." (Mujaadilah 58:1), it means Allaah is not telling the truth - because how can Allaah have already heard she who disputes when she who disputes is not even in existence yet? And likewise with the verse, "Allaah has indeed heard the saying of those who said, "Indeed Allaah is poor and we are rich!" (Aali Imraan 3:181) - was Allaah telling the truth in eternity, before those who said this were even created - because this is supposed to be the eternal meaning that resides with Allaah's self, and is not speech tied to Allaah's will and power, according to them. So when the Kullaabi Ash'aris deny that Allaah's speech is tied to His will, repugnant sayings and implications are necessitated by this.
                            Allah's Hearing and Seeing are from among His eternal attributes of absolute perfection. Since eternal means that it's outside of time and without beginning or end it also means that Allah ta'ala is Hearing and Seeing us through all times, so the Ayat are obviously true. The past, the present and the future are like one in front of Allah ta'ala, because He's outside of time. This is something that you materialist don't want to understand.

                            As for Allah's speech being truthful: There is no doubt regarding this whatsoever and we say that it's intrinsically impossible for God's speech to contain any falsehood or lies or the like.

                            But I'm quite sure that according to you "it's intrisically possible for God to tell a lie". Am I right? Let's see how ugly your beliefs are!

                            And now you can go and search for mosquitos: Maybe you'll find the being that you worship upon their backs! Wallahul musta'an!
                            Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 01-01-21, 11:36 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                              .
                              As for Allah's Speech itself, then it's eternal according to both as already clarified. He may let anyone from among His creation hear His speech in time - while His speech is eternal! - and His command leads to creation in time - and this again while His speech is eternal.
                              So a non-existing Musa was adressed in eternity by Allaah ? You really need to have chicken brains to believe this.


                              Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                              Allah's Hearing and Seeing are from among His eternal attributes of absolute perfection. Since eternal means that it's outside of time and without beginning or end it also means that Allah ta'ala is Hearing and Seeing us through all times, so the Ayat are obviously true. The past, the present and the future are like one in front of Allah ta'ala, because He's outside of time. This is something that you materialist don't want to understand.

                              As for Allah's speech being truthful: There is no doubt regarding this whatsoever and we say that it's intrinsically impossible for God's speech to contain any falsehood or lies or the like.[/B]
                              So when did hear Allaah "Indeed Allaah is poor and we are rich!" ? The sentence is in past tense, means He heard it later. But you are bound to claim he heard in eternity from non-existing humans. And since it is said in past tense, according to your logic there should be a situation of before eternity.

                              You are really a idiot, and if i would reach you, i want to beat your head up with my shoes!
                              ​​​​​​
                              ​​​
                              ​​​​


                              Comment


                              • Do you accept that i may beat your head with my shoes if you can't answer this:

                                https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/um...83-ashari-quiz

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X