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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • Peace be upon the one who follows the guidance.

    Originally posted by maturidee View Post
    1) I believe that God always had his sifaat-i fi'lyyah and that these are tied to his Will and Power, can do them whenever and how He Wants.
    Regarding the first point: Allah ta'ala is described with attributes of action and they are tied to his Will and Power [and Knowledge]. This much is correct. The Maturidis and the Hanabila say that His actions are eternal because they subsist in Him, while the Ash'aris don't regard it as eternal because their understanding of "action" differs. The Ash'aris intend the result of the divine power with "actions", which obviously doesn't subsist in the divine Self.
    All of these 3 Madhahib of the Sunnis are agreed upon that change happens to the creation through the actions of Allah ta'ala, but NOT to the divine Self! The divine Power is connected to all that is possible and NOT to that which is impossible NOR to what is necessary in existence (i.e. Allah's Self!).

    Originally posted by maturidee View Post
    2) I believe that God is al real entity with a real essense, a real hajm, and not just a concept in the mind. He can be seen with the vision of the eyes in a direction.
    Regarding the second point: Affirming a size (hajm) for that which you worship makes you nearer to atheists and polytheists than Muslims.
    In your [lack of] understanding nothing can have a real existence except that it has a size and this also what your grandmaster explicitly argued in the Bayan [of his own] Talbis and there is no doubt whatsoever that this is open greater disbelief (!!!) and that you don't know Allah ta'ala nor are you worshiping Him!


    You're upon the way of the materialists for they can not imagine anything beyond this world and only believe in that which has a size or is physical! This is clearly from the way of the disbelievers and not befitting of Muslims.
    As Muslims we believe that Allah ta'ala is the ultimate reality and that all that exists is dependent on Him and that He's completely dissimilar in His reality to the creation such that His creation is unable to imagine or comprehend His reality.

    Now let's see what the scholars of Islam stated.
    Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 30-12-20, 09:37 PM.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
      Now let's see what the scholars of Islam stated.
      Imam al-Qurtubi's Takfir upon those affirming the literal meaning of the Mutashabihat


      Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala says:

      { هُوَ ٱلَّذِيۤ أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ ٱلْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ ٱلْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ في قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ٱبْتِغَاءَ ٱلْفِتْنَةِ وَٱبْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلاَّ ٱللَّهُ وَٱلرَّاسِخُونَ فِي ٱلْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلاَّ أُوْلُواْ ٱلأَلْبَابِ }

      { He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. }

      [3:7]


      Imam al-Qurtubi (d. 671 AH) stated in his Tafsir (explanation) regarding the above Aya (see also next page) the following (translation taken from here: "Followers of the Allegorical Verses"):

      قوله تعالى: { فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ٱبْتِغَاءَ ٱلْفِتْنَةِ وَٱبْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ } قال شيخنا أبو العباس رحمة الله عليه: متبِعو المتشابه لا يخلو أن يتبعوه ويجمعوه طلباً للتشكيك في القرآن وإضلالِ العوامّ، كما فعلته الزنادقة والقرامِطة الطاعنون في القرآن؛ أو طلباً لاعتقاد ظواهر المتشابه، كما فعلته المجسِّمة الذِين جمعوا ما في الكتاب والسنة مما ظاهره الجِسمية حتى ٱعتقدوا أن البارىء تعالى جسم مجسم وصورة مصوّرة ذات وجه وعين ويد وجنب ورجل وأصبع، تعالى الله عن ذلكٰ؛ أو يتبعوه على جهة إبداء تأويلاتها وإيضاح معانيها، أو كما فعل صبِيغ حين أكثر على عمر فيه السؤال. فهذه أربعة أقسام:

      الأوّل: لا شك في كفرهم، وأن حكم الله فيهم القتل من غير ٱستتابة.
      الثاني: الصحيح القول بتكفيرهم، إذ لا فرق بينهم وبين عباد الأصنام والصور، ويستتابون فإن تابوا وإلا قتلوا كما يفعل بمن ٱرتدّ.
      الثالث: ٱختلفوا في جواز ذلك بناء على الخلاف في جواز تأويلها. وقد عرف أنّ مذهب السلف ترك التعرّض لتأويلها مع قطعهم بٱستحالة ظواهرها، فيقولون أمِرّوها كما جاءت. وذهب بعضهم إلى إبداء تأويلاتها وحملِها على ما يصح حمله في اللسان عليها من غير قطع بتعيين مجمل منها.
      الرابع: الحكم فيه الأدب البليغ، كما فعله عمر بصبيغ


      The Exalted said: [But those in whose hearts is perversity] follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings.

      Our Shaykh, Abu al-‘Abbās (rahmatullah ‘alayhi) said:

      Furthermore, the followers of the allegorical verses (mutashābih) are not free from:

      • Following it and collecting it, seeking to raise doubts in the Qur’ān and (seeking to) misguide the laymen as done by the Zanādiqah (deviants), the Qarāmiṭah, and the refuters of the Qur’ān.

      • Or, seeking to believe in the outward (ẓawāhir) meanings of the mutashābih as done by the anthropomorphists (deluded ones who give physical traits to Allah), those who collected from the Qur’ān and Sunnah whatever gave a physical meaning when taken literally (ẓāhir). To the extent that they believed that the Creator is a physical body and a fashioned form, possessing a face and other things: hand, eye, side and finger. Exalted is Allah from that, with the most Supreme Exaltation.

      • Or they sought out these (mutashābih) with a view to manifest its interpretations and clarify its meanings.

      • Or (they did) like Subaygh when he asked ‘Umar رضي الله عنه about them (the mutashābih) excessively.

      So these are four categories:

      • The First: there is no doubt about their disbelief (kufr) and that the judgment of Allah concerning them is execution without even asking them to repent.

      • The Second: The most sound (opinion) is to make takfīr on them (to consider them to be kāfirs), since there is no difference between them and worshippers of idols and images. And they should be asked to repent. Thereafter, either they’ll repent, or if not, they should be executed as is done to an apostate (murtad).

      • The Third: There is a difference of opinion concerning that (action) based upon the difference of opinion in the permissibility of (various) ta’wīls (interpretations) of the mutashābih. And it is known that the madhhab of the Salaf (pious predecessors) was to leave the undertaking of interpreting them while being certain that the literal meaning (ẓawāhir) was impossible. So they would say, “Let it pass as it came!” And some of them (the Salaf) took the madhhab of manifesting its interpretations by interpreting it with meanings consistent with the (Arabic) tongue without definitively confirming a specific possible meaning.

      • The Fourth: The judgment for him is to be taught a profound lesson as Amīr al-Mu’minīn ‘Umar ibn al Khaṭṭāb رضي الله عنه did to Subaygh.
      - end of quote -

      Comment


      • I had posted this originally regarding the christians in another thread, but it obviously also applies to those who worship things with a size:


        Regarding those who claim to worship the Creator, but do not know Him in reality

        Imam Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalani (d. 852 AH) said in his Fath al-Bari 3/359 (translation taken from HERE):

        قال حذاق المتكلمين ما عرف الله من شبهه بخلقه أو أضاف إليه اليد أو أضاف إليه الولد فمعبودهم الذي عبدوه ليس هو الله وإن سموه به

        The brilliant kalaam scholars said: "The one that likened Aļļaah to His creation, or ascribed a hand to Him (i.e. in the sense of a part or limb) or a child; what he worships is not Aļļaah, even if he called it Aļļaah."
        - end of quote -


        Imam al-Nawawi (d. 676 AH) referred to al-Qadhi 'Iyadh (d. 544) in his Sharh upon [Sahih] Muslim 1/199 - 200 by saying:

        قوله صلى الله عليه و سلم ( فليكن أول ما تدعوهم إليه عبادة الله فإذا عرفوا الله فأخبرهم إلى آخره ) قال القاضي عياض رحمه الله هذا يدل على أنهم ليسوا بعارفين الله تعالى وهو مذهب حذاق المتكلمين في اليهود والنصارى أنهم غير عارفين الله تعالى وان كانوا يعبدونه ويظهرون معرفته لدلالة السمع عندهم على هذا وان كان العقل لا يمنع أن يعرف الله تعالى من كذب رسولا قال القاضي عياض رحمه الله ما عرف الله تعالى من شبهه وجسمه من اليهود أو اجاز عليه البداء أو أضاف إليه الولد منهم أو أضاف إليه الصاحبة والولد وأجاز الحلول عليه والانتقال والامتزاج من النصارى أو وصفه مما لا يليق به أو أضاف إليه الشريك والمعاند في خلقه من المجوس والثنوية فمعبودهم الذى عبدوه ليس هو الله وان سموه به اذ ليس موصوفا بصفات الاله الواجبة له فاذن ما عرفوا الله سبحانه فتحقق هذه النكتة واعتمد عليها وقد رأيت معناها لمتقدمى أشياخنا

        The saying of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم) "let the first you call them to be the worship of Aļļaah, then when they know Aļļaah tell them…" etc.

        Al-Qaađii ˆIiaađ (رحمه الله) said: "This (i.e. the foregoing statement of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم)) indicates that they (the Christians) do not know Aļļaah, and this is the saying of the brilliant kalaam scholars regarding the jews and the Christians; that they do not know Aļļaah (تعالى) even if they worship Him (i.e. call what they worship by His name) and making it appear as if they know Him, based on what they narrate amongst themselves, even though it is not impossible in the mind’s eye that someone who disbelieves in a messenger does know Aļļaah."
        Al-Qaađii ˆIiaađ (رحمه الله) said: The one that likened Aļļaah to His creation, or believed Him to be bodily among the jews and Christians, or believed that He gains knowledge over time, or claimed He has a child, or a female companion and a child, or said he could exist in created things, or move from one place to another, or be mixed with creation, among the Christians or attributed to Him what is not befitting, or associated with Him a partner or opponent in creating among the Magians an dualists; what they worship is not Aļļaah, even if they called it that. This is because it is not attributed with the attributes that are necessarily His. Accordingly, they do not know Aļļaah (سبحانه), so realize this point well, and depend on it, and I have seen this point made by our predecessor shaykhs."

        - end of quote -

        Comment


        • Note that the problem - all the problem! - is that these people are not proficient in the sciences of the Arabic language (and this starts with their satanic leader Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab (d. 1206 AH) - who didn't even know 'Ilm al-Balagha! - and goes on until today!) and that they lack basic comprehension skills, which leads them to completely distort the meaning of Qur`anic Ayat and to come up with meanings, that are rejected in the Qur`an al-karim.

          Allah ta'ala states:

          { ٱلَّذِينَ ٱتَّخَذُواْ دِينَهُمْ لَهْواً وَلَعِباً وَغَرَّتْهُمُ ٱلْحَيَٰوةُ ٱلدُّنْيَا فَٱلْيَوْمَ نَنسَـٰهُمْ كَمَا نَسُواْ لِقَآءَ يَوْمِهِمْ هَـٰذَا وَمَا كَانُواْ بِآيَٰتِنَا يَجْحَدُونَ }

          { Who took their religion for a sport and pastime, and whom the life of the world beguiled. So this day We have forgotten them even as they forgot the meeting of this their Day and as they used to deny Our tokens. }

          And His statement:

          { ٱلْمُنَافِقُونَ وَٱلْمُنَافِقَاتُ بَعْضُهُمْ مِّن بَعْضٍ يَأْمُرُونَ بِٱلْمُنكَرِ وَيَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ ٱلْمَعْرُوفِ وَيَقْبِضُونَ أَيْدِيَهُمْ نَسُواْ ٱللَّهَ فَنَسِيَهُمْ إِنَّ ٱلْمُنَافِقِينَ هُمُ الْفَاسِقُونَ }

          { The hypocrites, both men and women, proceed one from another. They enjoin the wrong, and they forbid the right, and they withhold their hands (from spending for the cause of Allah). They forget Allah, so He hath forgotten them. Lo! the hypocrites, they are the transgressors. }

          [9:67]

          Imam al-Tabari (d. 310 AH) said in his Tafsir of the Aya 9:67 the following:

          نَسُوا اللَّهَ فَنَسِيَهُمْ } فإن معناه: تركوا الله أن يطيعوه ويتبعوا أمره، فتركهم الله من توفيقه وهدايته ورحمته. وقد دللنا فيما مضى على أن معنى النسيان الترك بشواهده

          { They forget Allah, so He hath forgotten them. } it's meaning is: They have abandoned Allah in obeying Him and in following His command, so Allah deprived them from succeeding, guidance and His mercy. We have already shown with proofs that the meaning of "Nisyan" (literally: forgetting) [here] is "Tark" (leaving).
          - end of quote -


          Comment: Imagine now someone were to tell you "God is described with literal forgetting". This would be clear disbelief and his claim that "it's stated in the Qur`an" would not help him. And this is exactly how these Najdis and modern "Salafis" distort the meaning of the Qur`an in order to make Kufri claims like "God has a literal shin" or "God literally gets bored" or "God literally gets hurt" and what is similar to this.

          The issue has reached such a degree in disbelief (!) that some of them openly affirm a SIZE (!) for the thing that they worship [instead of Allah ta'ala]. Wallahul musta'an!
          (Note: The affirmation of size was also done by Haitham Hamdan, who was the admin of the English [so called] "ahlalhdeeth"-website and he also affirmed that this is the position of their grandmaster. See here: "Pseudo-Salafis say God has a ‘Size’")
          Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 30-12-20, 10:38 PM.

          Comment


          • I've a post in another thread regarding some of the problematic statements of Ibn Taymiyya (d. 728 AH) - whom these satanic Najdis have taken as their grandmaster and added to his deviation even greater deviation - and this is a part of the post relevant to what was stated above regarding the disbelief of the one who worships things with a size [instead of Allah ta'ala]:

            __________

            The importance of denying corporeality regarding the Creator

            In the time of our beloved Prophet - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - the people used to worship idols, statues, angels, jinn, stars and other bodies and believed that these things were somehow divine and had some attributes of Lordship and therefore deserved worship.

            The Messenger of Allah - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - explained to the people that these things that they were regarding as Gods besides Allah ta'ala or alongside Him were themselves created slaves of Allah or just names that their forefathers had invented without any reality and therefore not worthy of worship, but rather the One who has created all things in the heavens and the earth deserved and deserves all worship.
            He - sallallahu 'alayhi wa sallam - clarified to them that Allah ta'ala is One without any partners and described with absolute perfection and completely dissimilar to the creation and that based on this He's the one and only true God without those whom they claimed instead of Him or alongside Him.

            This means that the aim of the pure Prophetic call was that the people leave paganism and realize the greatness of their Creator, submit to Him completely and worship Him alone without any partners and NOT that people just leave the worship of their idols for the worship of an idol that is just greater in size (because this is what the call of the corporealists means in reality).

            Know that the corporealists are therefore nothing but revivers of paganism and do not know Allah ta'ala and are callers to idol worship!

            Imam al-Ghazali (d. 505 AH) said in his Iljam al-'Awam (translation taken from HERE):

            أعني بالجسم عبارة عن مقدار له طول وعرض وعمق يمنع غيره من أن يوجد بحيث هو ... فإن خطر بباله أن اللّه جسم مركب من أعضائه فهو عابد صنم فإن كل جسم فهو مخلوق، وعبادة المخلوق كفر، وعبادة الصنم كانت كفرا لأنه مخلوق، وكان مخلوقا لأنه جسم فمن عبد جسما فهو كافر بإجماع الأئمة السلف منهم والخلف

            I mean by “body” something with length, width and depth that prevents something else to exist where it exists…. So if it came to someone’s mind that Aļļaah is a body composed of limbs, then this person is an idol worshiper. The reason is that all bodies are created, and to worship something created is kufr. After all, idol worship is kufr because the idol is created, and the idol is created because it is a body. Hence, the one who worships a body is a kaafir by the consensus of the Muslim Nation, both the salaf and those later.
            - end of quote -

            After the above statement he directly says that it does not make any difference whether this body is dense (Kathif) like the mountains or subtle (Latif) like the air and the water and gives more examples of bodies ("سواء كان ذلك الجسم كثيفا كالجبال الصم الصلاب، أو لطيفا كالهواء والماء").

            It should be noted here that the rejection of limits, parts, organs, limbs, place, etc. are in reality all meant as the rejection of the same meaning: The rejection of corporeality!
            So let us concentrate on this issue.
            __________


            The rest of the post can be read HERE.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
              .

              I wish you had not responded or at least declared Allah ta'ala transcendent from having a size, but what has been stated can not be undone now. I'll comment on the open disbelief (!) you've uttered insha`Allah. This takes priority now over anything else.
              According to the salaf it is not tasbeeh if you affirm real meaning. It is only tasbeeh if the if you compare the howness of it.

              Ishaaq ibn Ibraheem ar-Raahawaih said: tashbeeh is if it is said: "Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand", or it is said: "Hearing like my Hearing,or similar to my hearing", then this is tashbeeh. But if what is being said is what Allah has said: Hand, Hearing, Seeing and it is not asked how, nor is it said: "Like my hearing, or similar to my hearing" - then it is not tashbeeh. Allaah, the Most Blessed, Most High, said in His Book (ash-Shooraa 42:11):

              There is none like unto Him, and he is the all-Hearing, the all-Seeing

              Comment


              • You've made statements of disbelief and apostasy in front of everyone. I'm not interested in discussing with you any secondary issues until you repent from what you stated regarding the affirmation of SIZE (!) regarding the Creator, who is transcendent and High Exalted above what you claim. Full-stop.

                PS: This should be a warning to everyone not to take their knowledge from satanic Najdis and their websites. Here you have the result in front of your eyes. He uttered mindlessly the words of open disbelief and continues in his vain. May Allah ta'ala protect us from following the footsteps of the accursed Iblis and his supporters!

                Comment


                • As for hajm then that is explained to mean that He exists (al-mawjood) or that He is established by Himself (al-qaa'imu bi-nafsihi) - [and] not with the meaning of being composite (al-murakkab, made up of parts). And the people are agreed upon the fact that whoever says, 'He is a 'jism' (body)' and intends this particular meaning (i.e. that He exists or is established by Himself), then he is correct in the meaning and whoever declared such a one to have erred only did so on account of the wording used [and not the meaning applied].

                  Comment


                  • This was my question:
                    "Is "God" in your understanding a being with height, breadth and depth? Yes or no? Or both possible?"

                    (So my question is quite obviously regarding affirmation of a size.)

                    And this was what this mindless creature answered:
                    "I believe that God is al real entity with a real essense, a real hajm, and not just a concept in the mind. He can be seen with the vision of the eyes in a direction."


                    Hajm is the Arabic word for size and he clearly affirmed it and acts as if real existence necessitates having a size. This is disbelief. Full-stop.


                    I repeat: The affirmation of size was also done by Haitham Hamdan, who was the admin of the English [so called] "ahlalhdeeth"-website and he also affirmed that this is the position of their grandmaster. See here: "Pseudo-Salafis say God has a ‘Size’"
                    So this did not slip from the tongue of this mindless creature mistakenly, but this is indeed what their satanic cult believes.

                    Comment


                    • It is you who is the mindless creature with your jahmic aristotle aqidah. I pity you that believe in a static frozen God who doesn't have attributes, cant speak, hear, see, etc, a God that is made up through Greek logic. Look at your atomic kalaami mumbo jumbo ashari aqidah which leaks from alle sides into paradoxal, incoherent, inconsistent, self contradictive, and from which repugnant sayings and implications are necessitated. Even your own scholars said that they thought that out of a thousand nobody would believe in ashari aqidah if the reality was told to them.

                      That's how you ugly satanic pathetic criminals are, hiding your ugly mumbo jumbo from the masses. You can't fool me with your mumbo jumbo. You are a loser who could not answer answer according to ashari logic why if you say "Sami' Allaahu liman hamidah" during salaah, why you say it, if the God you believe in can't hear you? Did the prophet came with a lie? You worthless static deity worshipper.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                        According to the salaf it is not tasbeeh if you affirm real meaning. It is only tasbeeh if the if you compare the howness of it.

                        Ishaaq ibn Ibraheem ar-Raahawaih said: tashbeeh is if it is said: "Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand", or it is said: "Hearing like my Hearing,or similar to my hearing", then this is tashbeeh. But if what is being said is what Allah has said: Hand, Hearing, Seeing and it is not asked how, nor is it said: "Like my hearing, or similar to my hearing" - then it is not tashbeeh. Allaah, the Most Blessed, Most High, said in His Book (ash-Shooraa 42:11):

                        There is none like unto Him, and he is the all-Hearing, the all-Seeing
                        This is actually a refutation against Ibn Taymiyyah and his followers, the Salafis.

                        Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Uthaymeen permitting Tashbih

                        Ibn Uthaymeen said, “To negate Tashbih (resemblance) in its entirety is not correct, because there are no two things among entities or attributes, except that they share something together between them. This commonality is a type of resemblance. If you, therefore, negate Tashbih absolutely, you are (by that) negating everything wherein there is a form of resemblance between the Creator and the creature. For example, existence: Both the Creator and the creature primarily share this together.” (Ibn Uthaymeen -Sharh Aqida Wasatiyyah)

                        Ibn Taymiyyah said, "One may say that there must be a guideline in this area by which it can be known what is permissible for Allah and impermissible for Him in affirmation and negation. Relying upon mere negation of resemblance (tashbih) or an unrestricted affirmation without resemblance is unsound. That is because there are no two things except that they have a shared portion (qadr mushtarak) between them as well as that which sets them apart." [Risala al Tadmuriyya li Ibn Taymiyyah]

                        Imam al Tirmidhi and Ishaq ibn Ibrahim al Rahawaih negating Tashbih

                        Imaam at-Tirmidhee (d.279H)- (rahimahullaah) said in his Sunan (1/128-129):

                        It has been stated by more than one person from the People of Knowledge about this hadeeth and what resembles it from the narrations, such as the Attributes, and the descent of our Lord - the Blessed and Most High - to the lowest heaven every night. So they say: "Affirm these narrations, have eemaan (faith) in them, do not deny them, nor ask how." The likes of this has been related from Maalik ibn Anas, Sufyaan ath-Thawree, Ibn Uyainah and Abdullaah Ibn al-Mubaarak, who all said about such ahaadeeth: "Leave them as they are, without asking how." Such is the saying of the People of Knowledge from the Ahl us-Sunnah wal-Jamaa'ah. However, the Jahmiyyah oppose these narrations and say: This is tashbeeh! However, Allaah the Most High, has mentioned in various places in His Book, the Attribute of al-yad (Hand), as-Sama' (Hearing), and al-Basr (Seeing) - but the Jahmiyyah make ta'weel of these aayaat, explaining them in a way, other than how they are explained by the People of Knowledge. They say: Indeed, Allaah did not create Aadam with His own Hand - they say that Hand means the Power of Allaah. Ishaaq ibn Ibraheem ar-Raahawaih said: tashbeeh is if it is said: "Hand like my hand, or similar to my hand", or it is said: "Hearing like my Hearing,or similar to my hearing", then this is tashbeeh. But if what is being said is what Allah has said: Hand, Hearing, Seeing and it is not asked how, nor is it said: "Like my hearing, or similar to my hearing" - then it is not tashbeeh. Allaah, the Most Blessed, Most High, said in His Book (ash-Shooraa 42:11): There is none like unto Him, and he is the all-Hearing, the all-Seeing


                        And there is nothing in this quote from Imam al Tirmidhi about affirming the real meaning. Where did Imam Tirmidhi say to affirm any meaning???


                        Please do not bring a whole bunch of mumbo jumbo or word play. Please provide an authentic narration from the Salaf, saying to affirm the meaning of Yad (hand) of Allah. And what meaning of yad (hand) are you affirming for Allah?

                        According to Ibn Uthaymeen and Ibn Taymiyyah, Tashbih is implied. As Ibn Taymiyyah said,"Relying upon mere negation of resemblance (tashbih) or an unrestricted affirmation without resemblance is unsound. That is because there are no two things except that they have a shared portion (qadr mushtarak) between them as well as that which sets them apart." Ibn Uthaymeen said, To negate Tashbih (resemblance) in its entirety is not correct, because there are no two things among entities or attributes, except that they share something together between them.

                        Is this the meaning of yad (hand) you are affirming, "Tashbih - similarity"???
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                        • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post

                          However, the Jahmiyyah oppose these narrations and say: This is tashbeeh! However, Allaah the Most High, has mentioned in various places in His Book, the Attribute of al-yad (Hand), as-Sama' (Hearing), and al-Basr (Seeing) - but the Jahmiyyah make ta'weel of these aayaat, explaining them in a way, other than how they are explained by the People of Knowledge. They say: Indeed, Allaah did not create Aadam with His own Hand - they say that Hand means the Power of Allaah.
                          So do the asharis and you say Allaah did create Adam with his own Hand?

                          I believe in it the way Imaam Malik mentioned about istiwaa when he was asked about he said istiwaa is known, the howness is unknown to us, in another variant he said the how is not conceivable, i.e. there is no ‘how’, no manner to it that we creatures can know of. Ghazali quoted this from Malik alot in his works.

                          Comment


                          • "Whoever interprets all the divine attributes in a manner other than their apparent meaning, and regards the words as metaphorical, that will inevitably lead him to denying the Lord and likening Him to something non-existent. It was narrated from Hammaad ibn Zayd that he said: The likeness of the Jahamis is that of people who said: On our land there is a palm tree. It was said: Does it have leaves? They said: No. It was said: Does it have branches? They said: No. It was said: Does it have bunches of dates? They said: No. It was said: Does it have a trunk? They said: No. It was said: Then you do not have a palm tree on your land!"

                            (Dhahabi in al-‘Uluw, p. 239, 250)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                              So do the asharis and you say Allaah did create Adam with his own Hand?

                              I believe in it the way Imaam Malik mentioned about istiwaa when he was asked about he said istiwaa is known, the howness is unknown to us, in another variant he said the how is not conceivable, i.e. there is no ‘how’, no manner to it that we creatures can know of. Ghazali quoted this from Malik alot in his works.
                              There are two position within the Ashari school.

                              Tafwid: Affirming the Wording and Remaining Silent Concerning the Meaning.

                              Asharis affirm it as it was revealed as it was intended. Allah says, "What prevented you from prostrating to what I created with my Hands?" (38:75)

                              Asharis believe it in the way Imam Shafi (d. 204 AH) said, “I believe in Allah, according to what came from Allah, according to what Allah intended. And I believe in the Messenger of Allah, according to what came from the Messenger of Allah, according to what the Messenger of Allah intended., peace and blessings of Allah be upon him.” (Ibn Qudamah in Lam’at al Itiqad)

                              or Imam Shafi's student Imam al Humaydi said, “All that the Quran and Hadiths said, such as "The Jews say, the Hand of Allah is fettered. Their own hands are fettered."(5:64) "And the heavens are rolled up in His right hand." (39:67) and similar texts in the Quran and the hadith. We add nothing to them nor do we explain them. Rather, we stop exactly where the Quran and the Sunna stopped. You must say, "The Merciful established Himself over the Throne." (20:5). Whoever claims other than this is a Jahmi nullifier." (Al Humaydi's Musnad)

                              Imam Ibn Asakir said, "The Mutazila said, "He has a hand (yad) but His hand is his power (qudra) and favor (nima), while His face (wajh) is His existence. The Hashwiyya said, His hand is a limb (jariha) and His face has a form (sura). Al Ashari took the middle road and said His hand is an Attribute and His face is an Attribute, just like His hearing and His Sight."

                              Tawil: Affirming the Wording and giving a linguistic explanation (tawil) that conforms to the Language.

                              "And the sky We built with hands; verily We outspread [it]" (Qur'an 51:47),

                              Imam al Tabari said, "Allah exalted said, "And the sky We built with hands; verily We outspread [it]" (Qur'an 51:47). Ibn Abbas said, concerning it: "with strength" Bi quwwa)." (Tafsir al Tabari)

                              This is permitted from a linguistic basis.

                              Sultan al Ulama al Izz Ibn Abdul al Salam explains, "It is like His saying, "Blessed is He in Whose hand is the Dominion." (67:1) And "O Prophet! Say unto those captive who are in your hands." (8:70). It is understood that the captives were not left in the physical hands of the Muslims but that they were subdued and conquered by them. The same applies to the expressions: 'Specific and non matters are in the hand of so and so," and "The Slaves and the animals are in the hand of so and so." It is understood that all these mean that they are in his control (istila) and disposal and not in his physical hand." (al Izz Ibn Abdus al Salam, Fatawa)

                              And in-depth look at the discussion of Tafwid and Tawil:

                              Dealing with the unclear verses and hadiths pertaining to Allah’s Attributes

                              Imam Nawawi said, “Scholars disagree about the Quran verses and hadiths that deal with the Attributes of Allah, [such as Allah’s ‘hand’ (Quran 48:10), His ‘eyes’ (52:48), or His ‘nearness’ (50:16)] as to whether they should be discussed in terms of a particular figurative interpretation (tawil) or not.
                              Some say that they should be figuratively interpreted as befits them (ie interpreting His hand for example, as an allusion to His omnipotence). And this is more well known of the two positions of the scholastic theologians.

                              Others say that such verses should not be given a definitive interpretation, but rather their meaning should not be discussed, and the knowledge of them should be cosigned to Allah Most (tafwid), while at the same time believing in the transcendence of Allah Most High, and that the characteristics of created things do not apply to Him (Allah). For example, it should be said we believe that

                              “the All Merciful is ‘established’ (Arabic: istawa) on the Throne.” (Quran 20:5)

                              But we do not know the reality of the meaning of that, nor what is intended thereby, though we believe of Allah Most High that

                              “there is nothing whatsoever like unto Him (Quran 42:11)”

                              And that He is above indwelling in created things (hulul), or having the characteristics of temporal, contingent existence (huduth). And this is the path of the Early Muslims or the vast majority of them, and is the safest, for a person is not required to enter into discussions about this. When one believes in Allah’s transcendence above created things, there is no need for debate on it, or taking risks over what there is neither pressing necessity nor even any real call for.
                              But if the need arises for definitive interpretations to refute someone making unlawful innovations and the like, then the learned may supply them, and this is how we should understand what has come down to us from scholars in this field. And Allah knows best. (Al Majmu- Nawawi)

                              To summarize and highlight some important key points.

                              There are two approaches toward the unclear verses and hadith pertaining to Allah’s Attributes

                              1. Tafwid, saying, “such verses should not be given a definitive interpretation, but rather their meaning should not be discussed, and the knowledge of them should be cosigned to Allah Most (tafwid), while at the same time believing in the transcendence of Allah Most High, and that the characteristics of created things do not apply to Him (Allah).”

                              “And this is the path of the Early Muslims (Salafus Saleh) or the vast majority of them, and is the safest, for a person is not required to enter into discussions about this.” Imam Nawawi is saying that it is the path of the vast majority of them, indicates, that a small group of Salaf engaged in tawil, the second approach.

                              The Basis for Tafwid in the Quran

                              Quran 3:7 can be read two different ways.

                              (1) Proof for Tafwid: “He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. “(Qur’an, surah 3 verse 7)

                              Ibn Masud read it this way. ((Suyuti- Itqan v.2, p. 4)

                              This position of tafwid is reinforced with the Quranic verse, Say: The things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are….and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge. (7:33)

                              In essense, the knowledge of Allah can only come from two sources, the Quran and Sunnah, since Allah and His Messenger did not explain the meaning of the Hand of Allah, neither explaining that it should be taken upon it’s apparent (literally) meaning (ala Dhahiri) nor explaining it to meaning, power (qudra) or favor (nima) it is best to remain silent. This is why Imam Shafi said, “I believe in what comes from Allah in the meaning meant by the Messenger of Allah.” (Ibn Qudamah in Lam’at al Itiqad)

                              Tafwid is to believe in the wording of the Quran and hadith when related to the unclear verses and hadiths pertaining to Allah and that it is true and from Allah, but to remain silent concerning its meaning and its howness as Allah and His Messenger did not delve into it.

                              2. Tawil. Saying, “Some say that they should be figuratively interpreted as befits them (ie interpreting His hand for example, as an allusion to His omnipotence). And this is more well known of the two positions of the scholastic theologians.” (Meaning more well known among the scholars of the khalaf – later generation)

                              When is tawil done?

                              Imam Nawawi says, “But if the need arises for definitive interpretations to refute someone making unlawful innovations and the like, then the learned may supply them, and this is how we should understand what has come down to us from scholars in this field.”

                              The point is that tawil is done, when innovation exist, and it is the only way to keep the common people save from such innovation. And the reason it is done this way is because, this is when the Salafus Saleh (Early Muslims), usually engaged in tawil. Imam Ibn Hajar Asqalani said, “al-Bayhaqi and others have narrated from the four imams, from the two Sufyan, the two Hammad, al-Awza’i, from al-Layth and others, that they DID interpret this text (make tawil) according to what befits Allah, and what is in use in the language of the Arabs.” (1)

                              Imam Ali Qari said, “The Salaf and Khalaf agree over tawil. The difference between them is only in terminology (al Khilafu baynahuma) as they have Consensus (ijma) over the fact that the outward terms must not be taken literally (sarf al lafzi min zahirih). However, the tawi of the Salaf is general (ijmali) as they practiced resignation (tafwid- consigning or remaining silent) to Allah Most High of the intended meaning of the wording, which is not taken literally as Allah is beyond that. As for the Khalaf, their tawil is specific (tafsili) because they were forced to recur to it due to the abundance of innovators. They did not intend, in so doing to diverge from the pious Salaf – Allah is our refuge from such a thought. It is only that necessity demanded it, in their time, due to the many anthropomorphists (mujassima_, Jahmiyya, and others of the people of misguidance, lest they prevail over the minds of the general public. They intended thereby the deterrence and routing of their arguments. This is why many of them apologized and said, “if only our times had the same purity of faith as that of the Salaf!” So what is obligatory upon us is what we mentioned regarding belief, together with negation of resemblance. And if it is feared for laypersons that they do not understand istiwa – short of saying it means istila (dominion) – except in the sense of contact 9ittisal) and the like among the requirements of corporeal requirements, then there is no harm in reorienting their understanding to meaning of istila in strict avoidance of what is forbidden, and in saying “istiwa means istila.” (Al Qari- Miraq al Mafatih Sharh Mishkat al Masabih)

                              Examples of Tawil among the Salafus Saleh:

                              Ibn Abbas and the Companions of the Prophet, sallahu alayhi wa salam:

                              Concerning the verse, “The day that a Shin will be laid bare,” (Quran 68:42) Ibn Abbas interpreted the “shin” to mean “severity.”

                              Commenting on this verse, Imam al Tabari said, “A group of the Prophet’s companions and their disciples, and the people of figurative interpretation have said, ‘He will uncover a severe matter.’ And among those who interpreted the shin to mean ‘severity’ from the Imams of Quranic exegesis are Mujahid, Said Bin Jubayr, Qataba and others. Allah be He exalted said, ‘And the sky we built with hands. And it is We who give expanse.’ (Quran 51:47). Ibn Abbas said concerning it: “With strength.” (Tafsir al Tabari) That is, “We built it with strength.”

                              Imam Ahmad

                              Concerning the verse, “Do they but wait until Allah comes to them in the canopies of the clouds?” (Quran 2:210)
                              Qadi Abu Yala mentioned that Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal commented on this passage saying that, “The meaning of it is , ‘His power and command.’ (Ibn Jawzi, Daf Shubah al Tashbih)

                              Imam Bukhari

                              Imam al Bayhaqi reports that Imam Al Bukhari said concerning the hadith, “Allah laughs at two men, one of them kills the other and both of them enter Paradise,” that laughing means, “mercy.” (Bayhaqi Al Asma wa al Sifat) That is, “Allah shows mercy to both of them.”

                              Sufyan al Thawri

                              Sufyan al Thawri said concerning Allah’s saying, “And He is with you where ever you are” (Quran 57:4) “It means with His knowledge.” (Tashih al Mahafim al Aqadiyya)

                              The Basis for Tawil in the Quran

                              Quran 3:7 can be read two different ways.

                              (1) Proof for Tafwid: “He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. “(Qur’an, surah 3 verse 7)

                              Ibn Masud read it this way. ((Suyuti- Itqan v.2, p. 4)

                              (2). Proof for Tawil: “He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah and those who are firmly grounded in knowledge. Say: “We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:” and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”(Qur’an,surah 3 verse 7)

                              Ibn Abbas said, “I am of those well grounded in knowledge, who know the meaning (of the allegorical verses).” (Suyuti- Itqan v.2, p. 4)

                              Ibn Taymiyyah says, “This reading has been reported from Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Muhammad Ibn Ijma Ibn Az Zubayr, Muhammad Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Qutybah and others. To me this and the other reading are both correct… Both readings have been reported from ibn Abbas and both are correct.” (Ibn Taymiyyah al Majmoo Al Fatawa)

                              Proof from Hadith

                              The Prophet, sallahu alayhi wa salam said, “May Allah make radiant someone who hears something from us, and then conveys it as he heard it (Quran and Hadith), for it might be that someone who it is conveyed to understands better than the one who heard (it first). (Sahih-Tirmidhi)

                              This hadith illustrates, that the later generations may have a better understanding of something the early generation did not.

                              And Allah knows best.

                              (1) Imam Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, while explaining one of the versions of the hadith of the Prophet Muhammad sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam, sometimes referred to as hadith an-Nuzul (and which would give the impression that Allah descends on Earth every night, in his book Fath al-Bari, volume 3, page 23, illustrates all these points, mentioned by Imam Nawawi.. Imam Ibn Hajar al Asqanlani said, “As for his saying ‘Yanzilu Rabbuna ‘ila s-Samaa’i d-Dunya“, those who confirm a direction to Allah, have relied on this text and said that it is the direction of ‘above’ (al-uluww), and this has been refuted by the scholars (al-jumhur), because talking like that equals limiting Allaah, who is exempted from that. Thereafter people have diverged about the meaning of an-nuzul: some took it according to its literal meaning and verily, these are the anthropomorphists (al-mushabbihah) , and Allaah is absolutely free (exempted) from what they say. Others have resorted to deny the truthfulness of all the hadiths which have been narrated in that regard: those are the Khawaarij and the Mu’tazilah, and these are really astonishing because on the one hand they interpret what has reached [us] in the Qur’an which is similar to this, and on the other hand they deny what has come from hadith, either due to ignorance, or to stubbornness. Others have read those texts as they were revealed, believing in them in general, while freeing Allaah from the manner [kayfiyyah] of the anthropomorphists, and these are the majority of the Salaf. [On top of that], al-Bayhaqi and others have narrated from the four imams, from the two Sufyan, the two Hammad, al-Awza’i, from al-Layth and others, that they DID interpret this text according to what befits Allaah, and what is in use in the language of the Arabs. Some other ones went so far in their interpretation that it ended up being a type of distortion. Others [still] made a difference between what is a ‘close’ interpretation’, i.e. in use in the language of the Arabs, and what would be a ‘far-fetched’ one, and as a result they have interpreted in some cases and made tafweed [i.e. leaving the meaning to Allaah] in some cases, and this has been narrated from imam Malik. It has been confirmed by Ibn Daqiq al-Id that al-Bayhaqi said that the safest [of all these methods] is to believe in those texts without a how (bila kayf) and to not speak about what is intended.”

                              And Allah knows best.
                              My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                                "Whoever interprets all the divine attributes in a manner other than their apparent meaning, and regards the words as metaphorical, that will inevitably lead him to denying the Lord and likening Him to something non-existent. It was narrated from Hammaad ibn Zayd that he said: The likeness of the Jahamis is that of people who said: On our land there is a palm tree. It was said: Does it have leaves? They said: No. It was said: Does it have branches? They said: No. It was said: Does it have bunches of dates? They said: No. It was said: Does it have a trunk? They said: No. It was said: Then you do not have a palm tree on your land!"

                                (Dhahabi in al-‘Uluw, p. 239, 250)

                                Someone said, “My point was that you don’t have to insert the word ‘literal’ when you mean literal if the meaning is apparent. There is no difference between a hand and a literal hand because it depends on the apparent meaning or context. Likewise, you don’t have to explain a metaphorical hand if the metaphor is apparent (like you used).”So Allah doesn’t say ‘literal hand’ or ‘metaphorical hand’ but that doesn’t matter. The question is what is the apparent meaning when Allah said it?


                                My Response:

                                If we knew what was apparent, it wouldn’t be among the ambiguous verses. It is because we don’t know, that we have to remain silent concerning its meaning.

                                Let’s take for example:

                                “O Prophet! say to those who are captives in your hands:” (8:70)

                                Are hands to be taken literal (haqiqi) or metaphorically (majaz)? What is apparent is that it refers to the metaphorical meaning, ie power, control, possession etc, but it does NOT refer to the literal meaning, ie the limb, the body part, part etc. because we know certain things about the Prophet, sallahu alayhi wa salam. One he is a man, a human being. So we know the true nature and reality of what is a man. It is impossible that the captives would be in the literal hands of the Prophet, sallahu alayhi wa salam.

                                You take that same verse and change the words to this,

                                “O Jibriel! say to those who are captives in your hands:”

                                Are hands to be taken literal or metaphorically? If one is honest, we don’t know, why because, we don’t know the true nature and reality of an angel. It could be literal or metaphorically. So what is apparent isn’t clear, this would be ambiguous. If we liken angels to men, what is apparent is that we would say it is metaphorical.

                                So with Allah, we cannot really determine what is apparent when dealing with those verses and hadith, because we don’t know the true nature and reality of Allah.

                                This why tafwid is the safest position with regard to Allah, because Allah says, Say: The things that my Lord has indeed forbidden are….and saying things about Allah of which you have no knowledge. (7:33)

                                And Allah knows best.
                                Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 31-12-20, 11:54 AM.
                                My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

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