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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

    Allah ta'ala is Eternal and so are His attributes of absolute perfection. This is what the people of Islam believe and no one from among those who say the Shahadatayn disagreed with this except the wretched Karramiyya and their likes. The ruling regarding them is either Tabdi' or Takfir! Choose which one we should apply to you.

    Allah ta'ala has always been All-Hearing and All-Seeing without modality. There is no need for us to get more into details, nor is it possible to comprehend the reality of the divine attributes anyways.

    As for your Karrami imagination that "God" hears and sees things in a sequence so that there happens a change to His divine Self, then this is from the attributes of the creation and not the Creator.
    Your satanic cult also claims that "God" sees through two literal eyes, so in your pagan imagination "God" needs tools and this is yet another attribute of created beings.


    As for the issue of the divine Will: What you stated is in no way necessitated. As for your belief that "God" forms a will after not having it, then this is yet another attribute of created beings.
    By the way: Do you believe that God's knowledge is eternal? If yes, then does God not know eternally what His Will is and what not? Answer, o "Muhaqqiq"!
    Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) stated in his famous 'Aqida (translation taken from HERE) the following regarding our creed regarding Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala:

    ุฅู† ุงู„ู„ู‡ ูˆุงุญุฏ ู„ุง ุดุฑูŠูƒ ู„ู‡ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุดูŠุก ู…ุซู„ู‡ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุดูŠุก ูŠุนุฌุฒู‡ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุฅู„ู‡ ุบูŠุฑู‡.
    ู‚ุฏูŠู… ุจู„ุง ุงุจุชุฏุงุกุŒ ุฏุงุฆู… ุจู„ุง ุงู†ุชู‡ุงุกุŒ ู„ุง ูŠูู†ู‰ ูˆู„ุง ูŠุจูŠุฏุŒ ูˆู„ุง ูŠูƒูˆู† ุฅู„ุง ู…ุง ูŠุฑูŠุฏ.

    ู„ุง ุชุจู„ุบู‡ ุงู„ุฃูˆู‡ุงู…ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุชุฏุฑูƒู‡ ุงู„ุฃูู‡ุงู…ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ูŠุดุจู‡ ุงู„ุฃู†ุงู…ุŒ ุญูŠ ู„ุง ูŠู…ูˆุชุŒ ู‚ูŠูˆู… ู„ุง ูŠู†ุงู….
    ุฎุงู„ู‚ ุจู„ุง ุญุงุฌุฉุŒ ุฑุงุฒู‚ ุจู„ุง ู…ุคู†ุฉุŒ ู…ู…ูŠุช ุจู„ุง ู…ุฎุงูุฉุŒ ุจุงุนุซ ุจู„ุง ู…ุดู‚ุฉ.

    ู…ุง ุฒุงู„ ุจุตูุงุชู‡ ู‚ุฏูŠู…ุง ู‚ุจู„ ุฎู„ู‚ู‡ุŒ ู„ู… ูŠุฒุฏุฏ ุจูƒูˆู†ู‡ู… ุดูŠุฆุง ู„ู… ูŠูƒู† ู‚ุจู„ู‡ู… ู…ู† ุตูุงุชู‡ุŒ ูˆูƒู…ุง ูƒุงู† ุจุตูุงุชู‡ ุฃุฒู„ูŠุง ูƒุฐู„ูƒ ู„ุง ูŠุฒุงู„ ุนู„ูŠู‡ุง ุฃุจุฏูŠุง
    ู„ูŠุณ ุจุนุฏ ุฎู„ู‚ ุงู„ุฎู„ู‚ ุงุณุชูุงุฏ ุงุณู… ุงู„ุฎุงู„ู‚ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุจุฅุญุฏุงุซ ุงู„ุจุฑูŠุฉ ุงุณุชูุงุฏ ุงุณู… ุงู„ุจุงุฑูŠ.
    ู„ู‡ ู…ุนู†ู‰ ุงู„ุฑุจูˆุจูŠุฉ ูˆู„ุง ู…ุฑุจูˆุจุŒ ูˆู…ุนู†ู‰ ุงู„ุฎุงู„ู‚ูŠุฉ ูˆู„ุง ู…ุฎู„ูˆู‚.
    ูˆูƒู…ุง ุฃู†ู‡ ู…ุญูŠูŠ ุงู„ู…ูˆุชู‰ ุจุนุฏู…ุง ุฃุญูŠุงู‡ู… ุงุณุชุญู‚ ู‡ุฐุง ุงู„ุงุณู… ู‚ุจู„ ุฅุญูŠุงุฆู‡ู…ุŒ ูƒุฐู„ูƒ ุงุณุชุญู‚ ุงุณู… ุงู„ุฎุงู„ู‚ ู‚ุจู„ ุฅู†ุดุงุฆู‡ู….
    ุฐู„ูƒ ุจุฃู†ู‡ ุนู„ู‰ ูƒู„ ุดูŠุก ู‚ุฏูŠุฑุŒ ูˆูƒู„ ุดูŠุก ุฅู„ูŠู‡ ูู‚ูŠุฑุŒ ูˆูƒู„ ุฃู…ุฑ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ูŠุณูŠุฑุŒ ู„ุง ูŠุญุชุงุฌ ุฅู„ู‰ ุดูŠุกุŒ (ู„ูŠุณ ูƒู…ุซู„ู‡ ุดูŠุกุŒ ูˆู‡ูˆ ุงู„ุณู…ูŠุน ุงู„ุจุตูŠุฑ
    ุฎู„ู‚ ุงู„ุฎู„ู‚ ุจุนู„ู…ู‡ุŒ ูˆู‚ุฏุฑ ู„ู‡ู… ุฃู‚ุฏุงุฑุงุŒ ูˆุถุฑุจ ู„ู‡ู… ุขุฌุงู„ุง.
    ู„ู… ูŠุฎููŽ ุนู„ูŠู‡ ุดูŠุก ู‚ุจู„ ุฃู† ูŠุฎู„ู‚ู‡ู…ุŒ ูˆุนู„ู… ู…ุง ู‡ู… ุนุงู…ู„ูˆู† ู‚ุจู„ ุฃู† ูŠุฎู„ู‚ู‡ู…ุŒ ูˆุฃู…ุฑู‡ู… ุจุทุงุนุชู‡ุŒ ูˆู†ู‡ุงู‡ู… ุนู† ู…ุนุตูŠุชู‡.
    ูˆูƒู„ ุดูŠุก ูŠุฌุฑูŠ ุจุชู‚ุฏูŠุฑู‡ ูˆู…ุดูŠุฆุชู‡ุŒ ูˆู…ุดูŠุฆุชู‡ ุชู†ูุฐ ู„ุง ู…ุดูŠุฆุฉ ู„ู„ุนุจุงุฏ ุฅู„ุง ู…ุง ุดุงุก ู„ู‡ู…ุŒ ูู…ุง ุดุงุก ู„ู‡ู… ูƒุงู†ุŒ ูˆู…ุง ู„ู… ูŠุดุฃ ู„ู… ูŠูƒู†.
    ูŠู‡ุฏูŠ ู…ู† ูŠุดุงุกุŒ ูˆูŠุนุตู… ูˆูŠุนุงููŠ ูุถู„ุงุŒ ูˆูŠุถู„ ู…ู† ูŠุดุงุกุŒ ูˆูŠุฎุฐู„ ูˆูŠุจุชู„ูŠ ุนุฏู„ุงุŒ ูˆูƒู„ู‡ู… ูŠุชู‚ู„ุจูˆู† ููŠ ู…ุดูŠุฆุชู‡ ุจูŠู† ูุถู„ู‡ ูˆุนุฏู„ู‡.
    ูˆู‡ูˆ ู…ุชุนุงู„ ุนู† ุงู„ุฃุถุฏุงุฏ ูˆุงู„ุฃู†ุฏุงุฏุŒ ู„ุง ุฑุงุฏูŽู‘ ู„ู‚ุถุงุฆู‡ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ู…ุนู‚ุจ ู„ุญูƒู…ู‡ุŒ ูˆู„ุง ุบุงู„ุจ ู„ุฃู…ุฑู‡.
    ุขู…ู†ุง ุจุฐู„ูƒ ูƒู„ู‡ุŒ ูˆุฃูŠู‚ู†ุง ุฃู† ูƒู„ุง ู…ู† ุนู†ุฏู‡


    1. Allah is One; He has no partner.
    2.
    Nothing is like Him.
    3. Nothing can overwhelm Him.
    4. There is no god but He.
    5. He is Pre-Eternal without a beginning, Perpetual without end.
    6. He will never perish and He will never come to an end.
    7. Nothing occurs but what He wills.
    8. No imagination can conceive of Him and no understanding can fathom Him.
    9. He does not resemble humankind.
    10. He is living; He will never die. He is sustaining; He never sleeps.
    11. He creates without His being in need to do so. He provides (for His creation) without any effort.
    12. He causes death without any fear. He restores to life without any hardship.
    13. He has always existed with His attributes even before His creating (the world) -which did not add anything to His attributes that were not already there. As He was Pre-eternal together with His attributes, so is He Perpetual together with them.
    14. It was not only after the act of creation that He acquired the (attributive) name โ€˜the Creator (al-Khaliq)โ€™ nor was it only by the act of origination that He could He acquired the (attributive) name โ€˜the Originator (al-Bariโ€™)โ€™.
    15. He always occupied the quality of Lordship even when there was nothing to be Lord of, and (He always) occupied the quality of being the Creator even when there was no creation.
    16. In the same way that He is the โ€˜Reviver of life to the Deadโ€™, after He has brought them to life the first time, and deserves this name before bringing them to life, so too does He deserve the name of โ€˜the Creatorโ€™ before He has created them.
    17. This is because He has the power over all things, all things are dependent on Him and all affairs are easy for Him. He is not in need of anything. โ€˜Nothing is like Him and He is the All-Hearing, the All-Seeingโ€™.
    18. He created the creation with His knowledge.
    19. He organised destinies for them.
    20. He allocated fixed life spans to them.
    21. None of their activities were hidden from Him before He created them, and He knew everything that they would do before He even created them.
    22. He has directed them to obey Him and He has forbidden them to disobey Him.
    23. Everything transpires according to His judgement and will, and His will is unequivocally executed. There is no will for the servants but what He wills for them. So, whatever He wills for them occurs, and whatever He does not will does not transpire.
    24. He guides whom He wills and He protects and keeps from harm whom He wills, out of (His) grace; and He misguides whom He wills and He disgraces them and afflicts (whom He wills) out of (His) justice.
    25. All of them are subject to His will between either His grace or His justice.
    26. He is above having opposites or equals.
    27. There is none to reverse His decision, there is none to repel His command and there is none to quell His affairs.
    28. We believe in all of this and we are certain that everything comes from Him.

    - end of quote -

    The above is what the people of the Sunna believe and we do not care what wretched Karramis and their modern counterparts claim or do not claim.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

      Allah ta'ala is Eternal and so are His attributes of absolute perfection. This is what the people of Islam believe and no one from among those who say the Shahadatayn disagreed with this except the wretched Karramiyya and their likes. The ruling regarding them is either Tabdi' or Takfir! Choose which one we should apply to you.

      Allah ta'ala has always been All-Hearing and All-Seeing without modality. There is no need for us to get more into details, nor is it possible to comprehend the reality of the divine attributes anyways.

      As for your Karrami imagination that "God" hears and sees things in a sequence so that there happens a change to His divine Self, then this is from the attributes of the creation and not the Creator.
      Your satanic cult also claims that "God" sees through two literal eyes, so in your pagan imagination "God" needs tools and this is yet another attribute of created beings.


      As for the issue of the divine Will: What you stated is in no way necessitated. As for your belief that "God" forms a will after not having it, then this is yet another attribute of created beings.
      By the way: Do you believe that God's knowledge is eternal? If yes, then does God not know eternally what His Will is and what not? Answer, o "Muhaqqiq"!
      Man man man, do you even know what kind of itiqaad the Karramiyya had? They say that Allaah did obtain attributes which he before not had. While i say that Allaah's attributes are eternal. Do you understand the difference?

      Yes i believe that Allaah foreknows eternally all things including his own will. What i say is that he didn't will eternally. And my proof is in the Qur'aan:

      Verily, His command, when He intends a thing, is only that He says to it, โ€œBe!โ€โ€“ and it is! (Surah Yasin 82)

      So according to you, the Qur'aan holds statements of kufr?

      And did you understand that Maturidis holds the belief that human creates his own willโ€‹โ€‹โ€‹? Are you going to make takfir on them now?


      โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹
      Last edited by maturidee; 29-12-20, 09:59 PM.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

        Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) stated in his famous.....

        The above is what the people of the Sunna believe and we do not care what wretched Karramis and their modern counterparts claim or do not claim.
        Nowhere does Tahawi state that Allaah willed everything eternally.

        Comment


        • The Karramiyya believe that God is subject to changes (Hulul al-Hawadith) and so do you and your satanic Najdi brothers. No need to make the Karramis look worse than you. Theyโ€™re your brothers in Tashbih and your real "Salaf".
          Why do you think your beloved grandmaster wrote specifically a refutation of a work that was originally a refutation of the Karramiyya?!

          As for the Ahl al-Sunna - meaning the Ash'aris, Maturidis and mainstream Hanbalis -, then they all believe that Allah ta'ala is transcendent from any type of temporality in His divine Self and they have mentioned a consensus regarding this way before your grandmaster was even born.

          Imam al-Tahawi (d. 321 AH) is one of our A`imma and has no connection to your satanic cult. His words are clear, but it seems youโ€™re lacking basic comprehension skills.

          As for the Qur`an al-karim, then it obviously doesnโ€™t support your pagan creed. The problem is only that your understanding is lacking in order to realize this.

          If your understanding would be correct, then the major classical scholars of Tafsir, the Arabic language and theology should have all or at least the majority of them understood the same as you, but we know that they did not.
          So either they were lacking in understanding or you. I think the issue is clear.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

            As for the Qur`an al-karim, then it obviously doesnโ€™t support your pagan creed. The problem is only that your understanding is lacking in order to realize this.
            Does not support the ashari creed. That's why they reject the words in the mushaf as being the true words of God.

            โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹โ€‹Maturidis regards the asharis are Jabriyyun. Look at Bazdawi's work Usul al Deen. He does not count the asharis as Ahla Sunnah. Same for Sharh al Fiqhul Akbar of Samarqandi (also attributed to al-Maturidi).

            Maturidis holds the belief that human creates his own will. Now is this belief kufr to you?

            Comment


            • Instead of trusting the satanic Najdis and their worthless websites go and read proper works by classical scholars.

              Imam Abul Muzaffar al-Isfarayini (d. 471 AH) stated the following in his al-Tabsir fil Din p. 112 - 113 while speaking about the belief of the wretched Karramiyya (your "Salaf"!):

              ูˆูŽู…ูู…ู‘ูŽุง ุงุจุชุฏุนูˆู‡ ู…ู† ุงู„ุถู„ุงู„ุงุช ู…ูู…ู‘ูŽุง ู„ู… ูŠุชุฌุงุณุฑ ุนู„ู‰ ุงุทู„ุงู‚ู‡ ู‚ุจู„ู‡ู… ูˆูŽุงุญูุฏ ู…ู† ุงู„ู’ุฃูู…ูŽู… ู„ุนู„ู…ู‡ู… ุจุงูุชุถุงุญู‡ ู‡ููˆูŽ ู‚ูŽูˆู’ู„ู‡ู… ุจูุฃูŽู† ู…ุนุจูˆุฏู‡ู… ู…ูŽุญู„ ุงู„ู’ุญูŽูˆูŽุงุฏูุซ ุชุญุฏุซ ูููŠ ุฐูŽุงุชู‡ ุฃูŽู‚ู’ูˆูŽุงู„ู‡ ูˆุงู„ู…ุจุตุฑุงุช ูˆูŽุณู…ูˆุง ุฐูŽู„ููƒ ุณู…ุนุง ูˆุชุจุตุฑุง ูˆูŽูƒูŽุฐูŽู„ููƒูŽ ู‚ูŽุงู„ููˆุง ุชุญุฏุซ ูููŠ ุฐูŽุงุชู‡ ู…ู„ุงู‚ุงุชู‡ ู„ู„ุตูุญุฉ ุงู„ู’ุนู„ูŠุง ู…ู† ุงู„ู’ุนูŽุฑู’ุด ุฒูŽุนูŽู…ููˆุง ุฃูŽู† ู‡ูŽุฐูู‡ ุฃูŽุนู’ุฑูŽุงุถ ุชุญุฏุซ ูููŠ ุฐูŽุงุชู‡ ุชูŽุนูŽุงู„ูŽู‰ ุงู„ู„ู‡ ุนูŽู† ู‚ูŽูˆู’ู„ู‡ู…
              - end of quote -

              Do you see this?! They LITERALLY (!) believed the very same thing that youโ€™re arguing here in your mindless state!



              PS: Stop repeating off-topic posts. This thread is not about Ash'aris and Maturidis (who are both Sunnis together with mainstream Hanabila) and I already told you that only some of their [early] scholars disliked each other and that their differences are minimal. No Sunni is on your side! Your satanic tactic will not work here!
              Last edited by Abu Sulayman; 30-12-20, 12:16 AM.

              Comment


              • Karraamiyyah (Mujassimah, Mukayyifah):

                They appeared around 250H, roughly the same time as the Kullaabiyyah. They claimed their Lord was a body, but not like the created bodies. They were Ahl al-Kalaam and they were also upon the proof of huduth al-ajsaam, but it led them to other conclusions. They are argued that as there are only bodies and attributes and attributes cannot exist except in bodies that are self-established (al-qaa'im bil-nafs), then Allaah must be a body. However He is unlike all other bodies in the sense that He existed for a period in eternity without any hawaadith (by which they mean presence of attributes) but by His will and power He brought about attributes in Himself, such as speech and action and the likes. This viewpoint allowed them to maintain the argument of the proof of huduth al-ajsaam, and they simply differed with the Mu'attilah from Ahl al-Kalaam on one of the premises which is that "bodies are never devoid of hawaadith (events)," the Karraamiyyah never accepted this absolutely, they said this is true for created bodies, but as for Allaah, He is a body and was devoid of hawaadith, until He chose to bring about events in His essence (meaning acquisition of attributes). This means that Allaah was not always mutakallim, one who speaks as and when He wills, but He became mutakallim, and thereafter will remain eternally as one who speaks as and when He wills. So they permitted what is called hulul al-hawaadith fee dhaatillaah (the occurrence of events in Allaah's essence, by which they mean acquisition of attributes Allaah never had before). And you should note that this is VERY different to the issue of Sifaat Fi'liyyah, or Af'aal Ikhtiyaariyyah, which is Allaah doing actions as and when He wills.

                Further, upon this claim of Allaah being a body the
                Karraamiyyah delved into takyif (specifying how) in certain areas, in the issue of 'uluww (Allaah being above His creation) and al-istiwaa (Allaah being over His Throne). They said things like Allaah is in contact, touch, adjacency to the Throne, or that He is remote with a certain distance from the Throne, or close with a certain gap from the Throne, and they started speculating on the takyif of Allaah's essence saying that His essence fills the Throne, or is equivalent to it, or extends beyond it and so on from those things for which Allaah gave them no authority. And they also said Allaah is limitless in all directions except that in relation to the Throne. Some of the leading figures and proponents of the Karraamiyyah denied that they claim Allaah is a human body in flesh, blood, bones and limbs as claimed by the Rafidi Mujassimah. There are some extremely important points here that you need to keep in mind, as they are crucial to understanding the context of statements made by others who rebutted them and which are misapplied by today's ignorant deluded Jahmites who pretend to be Ash'arites. All of their views are documented in al-Ash'ari's al-Maqaalaat, Abu Mansur al-Baghdadi's Usul al-Din, and al-Farq bayn al-Firaq.

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                  • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                    So they permitted what is called hulul [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]al-hawaadith fee dhaatillaah (the occurrence of events in Allaah's essence, by which they mean acquisition of attributes Allaah never had before). And you should note that this is VERY different to the issue of Sifaat Fi'liyyah, or Af'aal Ikhtiyaariyyah[SIZE=14px][COLOR=#343434][FONT=arial], which is Allaah doing actions as and when He wills.
                    What kind of "Muhaqqiq" are you? Copy-pasting again from them joke that the [anti-]"asharis"-website is?
                    Why donโ€™t you bring us the actual quotes from Maqalat al-Islamiyyin or from Usul al-Din or al-Farq bayn al-Firaq like I did with al-Tabsir fil Din? Because the similarity to your Madhhab becomes too apparent if you do so? Or donโ€™t you even understand Arabic?
                    (All these works are authored by Sunni scholars and they would at least do Tabdi' upon your likes!)

                    Hulul al-Hawadith simply means indwelling of temporality [in the divine Self] and you and the Karramis are both guilty of this paganism. The only difference is that you additionally believe in Tasalsul al-Hawadith and Hawadith la Awwala laha (temporality having no first) and this makes you WORSE than these wretched Karramis.

                    Regarding the actions of Allah taโ€™ala: Change happens to the creation through them and NOT to the divine Self. This is what you and your criminal Karrami brothers donโ€™t understand.

                    Let me ask you two questions:
                    - According to your sect "God" is described with a literal settlement upon the throne. Now before the creation of the throne he wasnโ€™t settling upon it. This means he acquired an attribute which he didnโ€™t have previously! Do you affirm this? If not, then what is it that you believe?
                    - Is "God" in your understanding a being with height, breadth and depth? Yes or no? Or both possible?

                    I want a clear answer, because you claimed to be a "Muhaqqiq".

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                    • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                      Further, upon this claim of Allaah being a body the [/FONT][/COLOR][/SIZE]Karraamiyyah delved into takyif (specifying how) in certain areas, in the issue of 'uluww (Allaah being above His creation) and al-istiwaa (Allaah being over His Throne). They said things like Allaah is in contact, touch, adjacency to the Throne, or that He is remote with a certain distance from the Throne, or close with a certain gap from the Throne, and they started speculating on the takyif of Allaah's essence saying that His essence fills the Throne, or is equivalent to it, or extends beyond it and so on from those things for which Allaah gave them no authority. And they also said Allaah is limitless in all directions except that in relation to the Throne. Some of the leading figures and proponents of the Karraamiyyah denied that they claim Allaah is a human body in flesh, blood, bones and limbs as claimed by the Rafidi Mujassimah[SIZE=14px][COLOR=#343434][FONT=arial].
                      The irony of the above is that your grandmaster delves EXACTLY into these type of pagan issues in his Bayan [of his own] Talbis! Ever read it?
                      He also believed that "God" is not made of flesh and bones and so on, but still argues "God" has necessarily (!) a size (and that he is made from some "uncreated" material).

                      He also quotes from the pagan book al-Naqdh - which he regards as a "great book" - and this while this book ascribes things like sitting, settling, movement, touching and even weight to "God".

                      Don't forget my questions regarding the settlement of the thing that you worship after not being settled upon it and him having a height, breadth and depth.

                      (Note: The one who has such a creed does not know Allah taโ€™ala and is worshiping other than Him in reality! High Exalted is Allah!)

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                      • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post
                        Let me ask you two questions:
                        - According to your sect "God" is described with a literal settlement upon the throne. Now before the creation of the throne he wasnโ€™t settling upon it. This means he acquired an attribute which he didnโ€™t have previously! Do you affirm this? If not, then what is it that you believe?
                        - Is "God" in your understanding a being with height, breadth and depth? Yes or no? Or both possible?

                        I want a clear answer, because you claimed to be a "Muhaqqiq".
                        I asked you many questions but you didn't replied. Such as about the binding lawaazims of ashari itiqaad and about juzi al iradah as being not created according to the maturidis (asharis falling in jabr by saying it is created).

                        But i am not shy to answer clearly and directly, nor do i need to twist around, nor do i dwell around paradoxal and unlogical claims:

                        1) I believe that God always had his sifaat-i fi'lyyah and that these are tied to his Will and Power, can do them whenever and how He Wants.

                        2) I believe that God is al real entity with a real essense, a real hajm, and not just a concept in the mind. He can be seen with the vision of the eyes in a direction.
                        Last edited by maturidee; 30-12-20, 06:11 PM.

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                        • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                          I asked you many questions but you didn't replied. Such as about the binding lawaazims of ashari itiqaad and about juzi al iradah as being not created according to the maturidis (asharis falling in jabr by saying it is created).

                          But i am not shy to answer clearlyand directly:

                          1) I believe that God always had his sifaat-i fi'lyyah and that these are tied to his Will and Power, can do them whenever and how He Wants.

                          2) I believe that God is al real entity with a real essense, a real hajm, and not just a concept in the mind. He can be seen with the vision of the eyes in a direction.
                          So, answer you also clearly me my previous questions.

                          Comment


                          • As simple example:

                            Ahl us-Sunnah hold that Allaah has actions tied to His will and following on from that regarding the attribute of "Kalaam" (speech), Allah has always been described as "mutakallim" (one who speaks) from eternity and alongside that Allaah speaks when He wills, however He wills. And we can illustrate with just one proof that is sufficient, which is:
                            ุฅูู†ู‘ูŽ ู…ูŽุซูŽู„ูŽ ุนููŠุณูŽู‰ ุนูู†ุฏูŽ ุงู„ู„ู‘ู‡ู ูƒูŽู…ูŽุซูŽู„ู ุขุฏูŽู…ูŽ ุฎูŽู„ูŽู‚ูŽู‡ู ู…ูู† ุชูุฑูŽุงุจู ุซูู…ู‘ูŽ ู‚ูŽุงู„ูŽ ู„ูŽู‡ู ูƒูู† ููŽูŠูŽูƒููˆู†ู

                            Verlily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. (Aali Imran 3:59)


                            Here, Allaah created him from dust and after that He said, "Be!", and so Allaah's saying "Be!" occurred after the creation of Adam from dust. So this is an instance of Allaah's speech in the Qur'an which could not have occurred in eternity - as the Kullaabi Ash'aris say - because Aadam did not exist then, and neither did Eesaa. And it is upon this, that Ahl us-Sunnah say that Allaah's speech is tied to His will. Allaah spoke to Moses, "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." and Allaah says He will say to Hellfire "Are you filled?". So are these two instances of speech the same? No, they are said by Allaah whenever He wills. But the Kullaabi Ash'aris claim all of this was said in eternity - when there was no Aadam and no Hellfire

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                            • Originally posted by maturidee View Post
                              As simple example:

                              Ahl us-Sunnah hold that Allaah has actions tied to His will and following on from that regarding the attribute of "Kalaam" (speech), Allah has always been described as "mutakallim" (one who speaks) from eternity and alongside that Allaah speaks when He wills, however He wills. And we can illustrate with just one proof that is sufficient, which is:
                              ุฅูู†ู‘ูŽ ู…ูŽุซูŽู„ูŽ ุนููŠุณูŽู‰ ุนูู†ุฏูŽ ุงู„ู„ู‘ู‡ู ูƒูŽู…ูŽุซูŽู„ู ุขุฏูŽู…ูŽ ุฎูŽู„ูŽู‚ูŽู‡ู ู…ูู† ุชูุฑูŽุงุจู ุซูู…ู‘ูŽ ู‚ูŽุงู„ูŽ ู„ูŽู‡ู ูƒูู† ููŽูŠูŽูƒููˆู†ู

                              Verlily, the likeness of 'Iesa (Jesus) before Allaah is the likeness of Adam. He created him from dust, then (He) said to him: "Be!" - and he was. (Aali Imran 3:59)


                              Here, Allaah created him from dust and after that He said, "Be!", and so Allaah's saying "Be!" occurred after the creation of Adam from dust. So this is an instance of Allaah's speech in the Qur'an which could not have occurred in eternity - as the Kullaabi Ash'aris say - because Aadam did not exist then, and neither did Eesaa. And it is upon this, that Ahl us-Sunnah say that Allaah's speech is tied to His will. Allaah spoke to Moses, "Indeed I am your Lord, so remove your shoes..." and Allaah says He will say to Hellfire "Are you filled?". So are these two instances of speech the same? No, they are said by Allaah whenever He wills. But the Kullaabi Ash'aris claim all of this was said in eternity - when there was no Aadam and no Hellfire
                              And this poses a huge problem for them, because it means - and refuge is from Allaah - that when Allaah spoke in eternity (according to them) with His Kalaam Nafsee, "Allaah has indeed heard the saying of she who disputes ..." (Mujaadilah 58:1), it means Allaah is not telling the truth - because how can Allaah have already heard she who disputes when she who disputes is not even in existence yet? And likewise with the verse, "Allaah has indeed heard the saying of those who said, "Indeed Allaah is poor and we are rich!" (Aali Imraan 3:181) - was Allaah telling the truth in eternity, before those who said this were even created - because this is supposed to be the eternal meaning that resides with Allaah's self, and is not speech tied to Allaah's will and power, according to them. So when the Kullaabi Ash'aris deny that Allaah's speech is tied to His will, repugnant sayings and implications are necessitated by this.

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                              • Originally posted by maturidee View Post

                                I asked you many questions but you didn't replied. Such as about the binding lawaazims of ashari itiqaad and about juzi al iradah as being not created according to the maturidis (asharis falling in jabr by saying it is created).

                                But i am not shy to answer clearly and directly, nor do i need to twist around, nor do i dwell around paradoxal and unlogical claims:
                                I did reply, but it seems you're unable to comprehend. Do you really think that I'll be mindless like you and speak regarding the reality of the divine attributes and thereby fall into Tashbih and Kufr as you did? No, by Allah no!
                                No need to mention the Ash'aris and Maturidis anymore - for their differences are Ijtihadi as mentioned before and they're both Sunnis together with the mainstream Hanbalis and their differences are within the frame of Sunni Islam -, but here we see that your difference is with the people of Islam altogether! Forget about any secondary issues. You need to repent before anything else.

                                I wish you had not responded or at least declared Allah ta'ala transcendent from having a size, but what has been stated can not be undone now. I'll comment on the open disbelief (!) you've uttered insha`Allah. This takes priority now over anything else.

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