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Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

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  • Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post

    I'm not sure they would let me stay even if I wanted to. There's always the option of keeping my new findings to myself, but I'm not that kind of person and this is an intimate and close-knit community to begin with. I just don't see a future here if I don't see eye to eye. They treat the books of Ibn Abdul-Wahhab frequently and one of the ongoing lessons is from ad-Durar like I said. As for staying amongst them, then Salafis are not exactly known for sitting with Ahlul-Bid3ah, right?
    If they are madkhalis, you would definitely be labelled as a mubtadi, others would just say you are confused/ignorant.

    I don't know the full situation, but personally I would study with the people that are closest to the truth, do keep in mind that modern salafis follow an extremely watered down version of the najdi dawah.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

      If they are madkhalis, you would definitely be labelled as a mubtadi, others would just say you are confused/ignorant.

      I don't know the full situation, but personally I would study with the people that are closest to the truth, do keep in mind that modern salafis follow an extremely watered down version of the najdi dawah.
      They're not with "Madkhalis"* like Spubs, but they're the same when it comes to Tabdee (or perhaps even worse). So I know I'll be labelled as a Mubtadi3. الحمد لله على كل حال
      جزاكم الله خيرا

      *I've never really understood who fall under this term besides Spubs and co.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post


        I really appreciate that, jazakumAllaahu khayran.

        My problem now is not really having a burn out, I've been conservative before Salafism and I'm still conservative. I don't wish to leave that for modernism or other kinds of deviant ideologies. It's more that I just feel uncertain where to take my knowledge from now. And my whole understanding of Islaam is so deeply rooted in Salafism, it makes me feel a bit lost at the moment. I've not read any books without explanations of Salafi scholars. And of course doubt my understanding about everything now. I don't tend to listen to Yasir Qadhi and other western students I've seen posted on here. And now that I've distanced myself from Salafi scholars - for the moment at least - it seems there are not many if any scholars I know of that I agree with. Besides that I need to work on leaving my community and probably saying goodbye to most people I've known. I've told one sister so far, one that I know probably has the mildest reaction since I've known her for years and she wasn't quite as staunch as me. Anyways, she probably thinks I've gone proper mad and hasn't responded me in days. Obviously when I do move away from this place I need to figure out where to go to next.. and I'm just not sure about it. Allahul musta3aan. I'm sorry, I know I'm rambling now.

        As for my comment to TheHaqq, then I meant more that if there's anything I've learned from my past mistakes: it's to not post my opinions as truth and call towards it prematurely. It's better to be deviant while staying silent, than being deviant and being the cause for others to deviate. I regret calling towards something I now see as false. So this has been something weighing heavy on my shoulders. Imagine just how many may have read my comments and I have led astray. That's a scary thought. I feel regretful not staying silent. So naturally besides that regret, I don't want to be caught in the middle as it's the last thing I want to bother myself with.
        There are plenty of Ulama to study with. Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah is one.

        The Late Hanbali school

        Imam Saffarini al Hanbali said, “"The Ahlus Sunnah consist of three groups: the textualists al-Atharis, whose Imam is Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the Ash’aris, whose Imam is Abu al-Hasan al-Ash’ari, and the Maturidis, whose Imam is Abu Mansur al-Maturidi رضي الله عنهم and they are all one group, the saved sect (al-Firqatun Najiyyah), and they are Ahl al-Hadith, the Ahlus Sunnah Wa’l Jama’ah.”" [Imam Muhammad Saffarini al-Nabulusi al-Hanbali رحمه الله in Lawami` al-Anwar]

        Imam Ibn al Shatti al Hanbali said, "Some scholars say that they, the saved sect, are the people of hadith (Ahl al Hadith), in other words the Atharis, Asharis and Maturidis." (Tabsir al Qani)

        Imam al Mawahibi al Hanbali said, "The factions of Ahlus Sunnah are three, the Asharis, the Hanbalis and the Maturidis." ( Al Ayn wal Athar)

        The division of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah that once was is no more. The Ulama have worked out our difference. It is only the Salafis who seek to divide the Ummah. They claim that they are the uniting formula, how can they unite us Muslims when they themselves are divided, ajeeb???

        It takes years to fully leave any belief systems, because you are dealing with beliefs and beliefs relate to the heart. I was once Salafi, and I would say it probably took me 6-7 years to leave Salafism for traditional Sunni Islam. It is a difficult transition for a lot of reasons. Traditional Sunni scholars teach differently. One difference, they may not provide proofs from the Quran and Sunnah as they teach. It is not that these things are not based on the Quran and Sunnah, they just don't teach like Salafis. Traditional Sunni scholars teach books from the Ulama from Ahlus SUnnah Wal Jamaah, usually from cover to cover.

        I good place to start is the internet. There are free Islamic classes at www.seekershub.org They don't have scholars from all four madhabs, but the knowledge there is pretty broad.
        Ashari Aqida, Shafi Fiqh, Hanafi fiqh, Malik fiqh, Quran, Hadith, and tasawwuf. The Ulama there are pretty conservative. They have both female and male scholars teaching there. And it is all free.

        Just seek knowledge. Open your mind, come with an empty cup and learn. And it is free. Dedicate 4 years to study traditional Sunni Islam at www.seekershub.org There is no obligation, they don't know you, you can use an alias. It is worry free. From there you can find Shuyukh you need in your area. The thing with traditional Sunni Islam, is that these scholars are all connected, throughout the world.

        I was once Salafi, and now I am Ashari in Aqida, Shafi in fiqh and Shadhili in tariqa. Everything I do and believe is based on the Quran and Sunnah. I have no regrets, in fact I am thankful in everyway for the path that Allah has lead me to. Salafism is deficient in almost every religious science without exception. And Islamic Spirituality, Tasawwuf is absent amongst the Salafis. They have reduced Tasawwuf to tazkiyyatul nafs (purification of the soul). Tasawwuf is much more than that. Tasawwuf is Tawhid, its focus is Allah. The Shaykh and Imam, Ibn al Mashish said, "Whoever guides you to actions makes you work hard, and whoever guides you to this world cheats you, and whoever guides you to Allah truly counsels you."

        The Messenger of Allah (saw) said, 'Be mindful of Allah, and you shall find Him in front of you.' (Tirmidhi)

        Allah says, "Verily, it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breasts that grow blind."(22:46)

        The Messenger of Allah (Saw) explained, Ihsan, "To worship Allah as Though you see Him." (Bukhari) because you see. It is not the seeing with eyes Basr, but seeing with the heart, basira.

        He also said, "Fear Allah, and Allah will teach you." 2:282)

        Imam Malik said, "Knowledge does not consist in narrating much. Knowledge is but a light which Allah places in the heart." (Ibn Jawzi Sifat al Safwa, and Ibn Kathir, in his Tafsir)


        I said all this to say, there is no nur amongst the Salafiyya. There is no baraka amongst the Salafiyya.

        Many of us were once Salafi. Salafism is a dying fade. It’s all hype with no substance. Feel free to ask me any question you like.

        And Allah knows best.
        My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

        Comment


        • What if.....

          This is part of the DOJ coming into play. No one is Muslim and then bam whoever is left of us is all Muslim.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ameera_ali View Post
            What if.....

            This is part of the DOJ coming into play. No one is Muslim and then bam whoever is left of us is all Muslim.
            ?

            Nobody is making Takfir here.
            Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
            "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
            Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

            Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
            1/116

            Comment


            • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post


              There are plenty of Ulama to study with. Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah is one.

              The Late Hanbali school

              Imam Saffarini al Hanbali said, “"The Ahlus Sunnah consist of three groups: the textualists al-Atharis, whose Imam is Ahmad ibn Hanbal, the Ash’aris, whose Imam is Abu al-Hasan al-Ash’ari, and the Maturidis, whose Imam is Abu Mansur al-Maturidi رضي الله عنهم and they are all one group, the saved sect (al-Firqatun Najiyyah), and they are Ahl al-Hadith, the Ahlus Sunnah Wa’l Jama’ah.”" [Imam Muhammad Saffarini al-Nabulusi al-Hanbali رحمه الله in Lawami` al-Anwar]

              Imam Ibn al Shatti al Hanbali said, "Some scholars say that they, the saved sect, are the people of hadith (Ahl al Hadith), in other words the Atharis, Asharis and Maturidis." (Tabsir al Qani)

              Imam al Mawahibi al Hanbali said, "The factions of Ahlus Sunnah are three, the Asharis, the Hanbalis and the Maturidis." ( Al Ayn wal Athar)

              The division of Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah that once was is no more. The Ulama have worked out our difference. It is only the Salafis who seek to divide the Ummah. They claim that they are the uniting formula, how can they unite us Muslims when they themselves are divided, ajeeb???

              It takes years to fully leave any belief systems, because you are dealing with beliefs and beliefs relate to the heart. I was once Salafi, and I would say it probably took me 6-7 years to leave Salafism for traditional Sunni Islam. It is a difficult transition for a lot of reasons. Traditional Sunni scholars teach differently. One difference, they may not provide proofs from the Quran and Sunnah as they teach. It is not that these things are not based on the Quran and Sunnah, they just don't teach like Salafis. Traditional Sunni scholars teach books from the Ulama from Ahlus SUnnah Wal Jamaah, usually from cover to cover.

              I good place to start is the internet. There are free Islamic classes at www.seekershub.org They don't have scholars from all four madhabs, but the knowledge there is pretty broad.
              Ashari Aqida, Shafi Fiqh, Hanafi fiqh, Malik fiqh, Quran, Hadith, and tasawwuf. The Ulama there are pretty conservative. They have both female and male scholars teaching there. And it is all free.

              Just seek knowledge. Open your mind, come with an empty cup and learn. And it is free. Dedicate 4 years to study traditional Sunni Islam at www.seekershub.org There is no obligation, they don't know you, you can use an alias. It is worry free. From there you can find Shuyukh you need in your area. The thing with traditional Sunni Islam, is that these scholars are all connected, throughout the world.

              I was once Salafi, and now I am Ashari in Aqida, Shafi in fiqh and Shadhili in tariqa. Everything I do and believe is based on the Quran and Sunnah. I have no regrets, in fact I am thankful in everyway for the path that Allah has lead me to. Salafism is deficient in almost every religious science without exception. And Islamic Spirituality, Tasawwuf is absent amongst the Salafis. They have reduced Tasawwuf to tazkiyyatul nafs (purification of the soul). Tasawwuf is much more than that. Tasawwuf is Tawhid, its focus is Allah. The Shaykh and Imam, Ibn al Mashish said, "Whoever guides you to actions makes you work hard, and whoever guides you to this world cheats you, and whoever guides you to Allah truly counsels you."

              The Messenger of Allah (saw) said, 'Be mindful of Allah, and you shall find Him in front of you.' (Tirmidhi)

              Allah says, "Verily, it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breasts that grow blind."(22:46)

              The Messenger of Allah (Saw) explained, Ihsan, "To worship Allah as Though you see Him." (Bukhari) because you see. It is not the seeing with eyes Basr, but seeing with the heart, basira.

              He also said, "Fear Allah, and Allah will teach you." 2:282)

              Imam Malik said, "Knowledge does not consist in narrating much. Knowledge is but a light which Allah places in the heart." (Ibn Jawzi Sifat al Safwa, and Ibn Kathir, in his Tafsir)


              I said all this to say, there is no nur amongst the Salafiyya. There is no baraka amongst the Salafiyya.

              Many of us were once Salafi. Salafism is a dying fade. It’s all hype with no substance. Feel free to ask me any question you like.

              And Allah knows best.
              السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
              JazakumAllaahu khayran katheeran, I appreciate it. I might be coming back later with questions if that's ok inshaaAllaah. I currently don't really have access to the internet.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post

                السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
                JazakumAllaahu khayran katheeran, I appreciate it. I might be coming back later with questions if that's ok inshaaAllaah. I currently don't really have access to the internet.

                Wa alaykum salam wa barakatuh
                wa iyyakum. Ask anything you like.
                My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

                Comment


                • Originally posted by aMuslimForLife View Post


                  Wa alaykum salam wa barakatuh
                  wa iyyakum. Ask anything you like.
                  جزاكم الله خيرا
                  So you've said that it took you quite some years to leave Salafiyyah completely, what were the most difficult things for you?

                  As for me, then I don't agree with the Najdi da3wah and the Salafi explanation like those of Ibn Uthaymeen about the Attributes. These are the main points I'm disagreeing with at the moment, but I find myself also appreciating things about Salafism. One of the things is their strict adherence to rulings. Now I understand their is room for difference of opinion in a lot of matters. And I know this might sound really superficial and trivial, but I'm just struggling with it somehow. I often see the students of al-Azhar and even the muntaqibaat don't dress quite as proper, as well as the men. Another thing I'm having a hard time with is photography. Even among Salafis you find those that take pictures and make videos, but I wasn't one of them. I also didn't listen to those students that did make videos of themselves. Now I find myself all of a sudden exposed to all those videos of men and it's been strange to me. It's like I can't find a single person that was linked here where I'm not exposed to this. I know this might sound really silly and small compared to the things I disagree with but they do bother me. These are just two examples but there are more where I find that outside of Salafis most people are not as conservative in. Now I wonder whether this is a legitimate concern of mine or not.

                  As a disclaimer I'd like to make clear that I know Salafis differ. I've never found a community as 'pure' as the one I'm in and it's definitely not applicable to a lot of other Salafis I've witnessed. This doesn't take from the fact that I disagree with them on matters now and perhaps even before. But it just makes me doubt myself. Like they have a lot of good in my eyes, so I get doubts that maybe I'm the one at wrong and I don't deserve this community any longer due to my sins etc. And that I've been misguided. Again, I know this might sound silly but I don't know how to explain it well. There are just some things I have found here where I'm quite sure you won't find it easily somewhere else and I correlate those things with the truth and pureness in practicing. So that has been one of the hardest things for me personally about leaving Salafism behind.

                  Btw I actually do not believe I'm leaving Salafism behind since I don't belief the Najdi da3wah is deserving of being called that anyway. But I hope you get what I'm saying inshaaAllaah.



                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post

                    جزاكم الله خيرا
                    So you've said that it took you quite some years to leave Salafiyyah completely, what were the most difficult things for you?

                    As for me, then I don't agree with the Najdi da3wah and the Salafi explanation like those of Ibn Uthaymeen about the Attributes. These are the main points I'm disagreeing with at the moment, but I find myself also appreciating things about Salafism. One of the things is their strict adherence to rulings. Now I understand their is room for difference of opinion in a lot of matters. And I know this might sound really superficial and trivial, but I'm just struggling with it somehow. I often see the students of al-Azhar and even the muntaqibaat don't dress quite as proper, as well as the men. Another thing I'm having a hard time with is photography. Even among Salafis you find those that take pictures and make videos, but I wasn't one of them. I also didn't listen to those students that did make videos of themselves. Now I find myself all of a sudden exposed to all those videos of men and it's been strange to me. It's like I can't find a single person that was linked here where I'm not exposed to this. I know this might sound really silly and small compared to the things I disagree with but they do bother me. These are just two examples but there are more where I find that outside of Salafis most people are not as conservative in. Now I wonder whether this is a legitimate concern of mine or not.

                    As a disclaimer I'd like to make clear that I know Salafis differ. I've never found a community as 'pure' as the one I'm in and it's definitely not applicable to a lot of other Salafis I've witnessed. This doesn't take from the fact that I disagree with them on matters now and perhaps even before. But it just makes me doubt myself. Like they have a lot of good in my eyes, so I get doubts that maybe I'm the one at wrong and I don't deserve this community any longer due to my sins etc. And that I've been misguided. Again, I know this might sound silly but I don't know how to explain it well. There are just some things I have found here where I'm quite sure you won't find it easily somewhere else and I correlate those things with the truth and pureness in practicing. So that has been one of the hardest things for me personally about leaving Salafism behind.

                    Btw I actually do not believe I'm leaving Salafism behind since I don't belief the Najdi da3wah is deserving of being called that anyway. But I hope you get what I'm saying inshaaAllaah.


                    Pardon me for interjecting but I'm genuinely curious in trying to understand the mentality of someone who leaves "Salafiyyah" primarily on the basis of losing conviction in Najdi Tawheed; are you naturally inclined towards looking at things in a dichotomous nature? In other words, if hardcore Salafism is wrong (and I would identify you as an ex "hardcore Salafi" considering your gravitation towards the Tabee Manhaj) would that somehow necessitate Ash'arism being true or more appealing to you?

                    I'm interested in figuring out the psychology of ex-Salafis because I project that this sect is short-lived, esspecially in the West. However, what separates East from the West is that we have figures like Yasir Qadhi (a Salafi-Athari) for ex-Salafis/"moderate Salafis" to fall back on and a virtually non-existent representation of the neo-traditionalist Hanaabilah. With that said though, I do believe that there will be a shift in the Da'wah and these topics will gradually be addressed more bluntly following Yasir Qadhi's book on the historical development of the Athari creed. Are you familiar with anyone in Egypt who also disagrees with the Najdi Da'wah but still sympathizes with the creed of Ibn Taymiyyah like Yasir Qadhi?
                    Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 03-12-20, 01:11 AM.

                    Comment


                    • YQ explains the content of his book from 8:40:

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                        In other words, if hardcore Salafism is wrong (and I would identify you as an ex "hardcore Salafi" considering your gravitation towards the Tabee Manhaj) would that somehow necessitate Ash'arism being true or more appealing to you?

                        Are you familiar with anyone in Egypt who also disagrees with the Najdi Da'wah but still sympathizes with the creed of Ibn Taymiyyah like Yasir Qadhi?
                        Asharism is not appealing to me. I'm still "Salafi" in these ways. I'm probably using the term wrong at the moment. But when I mean leaving Salafism, I mean leaving Salafism in the eyes of other Salafis. As for me, then I would still regard myself as someone trying to follow the Salaf, of course. Actually more so than them. The thing is though that they hijacked the name, so I'm using it the way most people are intending. According to them, someone who doesn't support the Najdi da3wah must clearly be a mubtadi since they make tabdee for seemingly much less.

                        No I'm not.

                        Comment


                        • I guess why I'm having a hard time adjusting is because I'm not able to' identify/sympathise' with any other person or group at the moment. I don't tend to take from people I don't completely agree with. I'm not someone to take the good and leave the bad because I don't trust I'm able to do that. So after coming to the conclusion that I can't longer support the Najdi da3wah, the people I truly agree with have been narrowed down to.. no one*. I guess this adds to the confusion I spoke of on the other thread. I haven't been able to watch most video suggestions because I don't have WiFi currently. Maybe things will become more clear to me once I do in shaa Allaah. But I feel like I need to find other truly conservative/Salafi-ish people**.

                          Yasir Qadhi may post interesting things, but I can't get behind his modernism. Of course that doesn't have to mean he becomes unreliable in every matter, but like I said I'm not the person to be able to judge that well and I don't like to entrust someone like that with my religion. Just because I distance myself from "hardcore Salafism" doesn't mean the gates to listen to everyone and anyone has opened up all of sudden. I still like to maintain standards. Someone like bro Hajji for instance, the intro where you see a logo of him with his sunglasses is one thing. And then all the videos between him, Dawah Man and Shamsi is another. These are not the people we're going to entrust with our religion right?

                          Anyway, I realise for me to actually benefit I need to work very hard on my Arabic. I'm afraid it's very easy to get fed misinformation when you're not able to verify sources for yourself. There's only so much translated into other languages and it's very easy for it to be skewed one way or another. I hope you don't take offense, but this counts for you too brother.

                          * With this I mean outside of the passed away classical scholars. Ya3ni, current students, scholars and people from among the layman like myself.

                          ** Merely based on this I'm quite interested to see what Shaykh Muhammad al-Azhari al-Hanbali has to say actually.

                          Also for what it's worth, I saw some comments between you and Abu Sulayman about al-Azhar. I disagree with both your statements. I disagree with Abu Sulayman that the Salafis in the Middle East don't deny the status of al-Azhar, because from what I've witnessed - around me at least - al-Azhar doesn't have any status and is more viewed as a necessary evil to get by. And I disagree with you in that someone having studied there can't be reliable regarding matters of Aqeedah. From what I've been told all Imams here have to have studied there otherwise you can't be Imam, so even the Salafi ones. That doesn't make them all of a sudden Ashari, they can still maintain the Athari Aqeedah. "Our" Shaykh has studied there as well. Wa Allaahu a3lam.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post
                            I guess why I'm having a hard time adjusting is because I'm not able to' identify/sympathise' with any other person or group at the moment. I don't tend to take from people I don't completely agree with. I'm not someone to take the good and leave the bad because I don't trust I'm able to do that. So after coming to the conclusion that I can't longer support the Najdi da3wah, the people I truly agree with have been narrowed down to.. no one*. I guess this adds to the confusion I spoke of on the other thread. I haven't been able to watch most video suggestions because I don't have WiFi currently. Maybe things will become more clear to me once I do in shaa Allaah. But I feel like I need to find other truly conservative/Salafi-ish people**.

                            Yasir Qadhi may post interesting things, but I can't get behind his modernism. Of course that doesn't have to mean he becomes unreliable in every matter, but like I said I'm not the person to be able to judge that well and I don't like to entrust someone like that with my religion. Just because I distance myself from "hardcore Salafism" doesn't mean the gates to listen to everyone and anyone has opened up all of sudden. I still like to maintain standards. Someone like bro Hajji for instance, the intro where you see a logo of him with his sunglasses is one thing. And then all the videos between him, Dawah Man and Shamsi is another. These are not the people we're going to entrust with our religion right?

                            Anyway, I realise for me to actually benefit I need to work very hard on my Arabic. I'm afraid it's very easy to get fed misinformation when you're not able to verify sources for yourself. There's only so much translated into other languages and it's very easy for it to be skewed one way or another. I hope you don't take offense, but this counts for you too brother.

                            * With this I mean outside of the passed away classical scholars. Ya3ni, current students, scholars and people from among the layman like myself.

                            ** Merely based on this I'm quite interested to see what Shaykh Muhammad al-Azhari al-Hanbali has to say actually.

                            Also for what it's worth, I saw some comments between you and Abu Sulayman about al-Azhar. I disagree with both your statements. I disagree with Abu Sulayman that the Salafis in the Middle East don't deny the status of al-Azhar, because from what I've witnessed - around me at least - al-Azhar doesn't have any status and is more viewed as a necessary evil to get by. And I disagree with you in that someone having studied there can't be reliable regarding matters of Aqeedah. From what I've been told all Imams here have to have studied there otherwise you can't be Imam, so even the Salafi ones. That doesn't make them all of a sudden Ashari, they can still maintain the Athari Aqeedah. "Our" Shaykh has studied there as well. Wa Allaahu a3lam.
                            Regarding the issue of "modernism" then much it might have to do with your Salafi background and lack of understanding in Fiqh. The Salafis have a black and white approach to Bid'ah and Sunnah. If someone is within the framework of the Shari'ah (i.e. it is a valid position), then I don't believe it is fair to condemn it is "modernism" even if it is slightly more liberal. Also, the Haqq doesn't exist in totality within any particular individual. Naturally we would have to take the good and leave the bad (i.e. what we may disagree with) with regards to any person or man-made group.

                            I agree that mastering Arabic and studying the classical works ourselves is vital, but my disagreements with the opposing narrative(s) is primarily based on philosophical objections as explained a few pages back. If you're interested in listening to the "Hanbali-Athari" perspective you could find some of their materials online. Shaykh Yusuf al-Sadiq wrote a commentary on Lumatul Itiqad and has a collection of Facebook videos where he engages in questions & answers sometimes on matters related to Aqeedah.

                            My issue with al-Azhar is the line of Hanbalis/Atharis they are producing. Al-Azhar is an extension of the Nizamiyya which was conquered by Imam Salahuddin al-Ayyubi(ra). It is a conflict of interest for them to produce a brand of Taymiyyan or "Salafi-Athari" scholars within an Ash'ari institute. Even Shaykh Yusuf al-Sadiq found it amusing in one his live-chats that they consider Hanbali Aqeedah to be an extension of Ash'arism.

                            WaAllahu A'lam

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                              The Salafis have a black and white approach to Bid'ah and Sunnah.
                              This could also be replaced with "Salafis have a black and white approach towards truth and falsehood." Meaning, the Salafis are more prone to blindly accepting everything from a group/individual or rejecting everything from them. We see this esspecially with the super-Salafis and followers of Shaykh Rabee.

                              Anyways, I realize that most people enjoy the comfort having a convenient structure. I'm of the view that none of the modern day Da'wah groups possess the truth in totality. In other words, none of them are worthy of being blindly submitted to in every aspect of Aqeedah and Manhaj. 'Higher levels of truth' requires spiritual integrity and some form of independence.

                              May Allah guide us and help distinguish truth from falsehood.

                              Comment




                              • Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post


                                جزاكم الله خيرا

                                So you've said that it took you quite some years to leave Salafiyyah completely, what were the most difficult things for you?

                                It is a completely different environment and culture. So it feels weird in the beginning. Tasawwuf is an integral part of the tradition. One either practices Tasawwuf amali (practical Tasawwuf - non-tariqa Tasawwuf) or Tasawwuf Dhawqi (Experiential Tasawwuf - tariqa based Tasawwuf) Thus there is a strong emphasizes on adab (proper manners). There is ilm (knowledge) and then there is adab (proper manners). Your adab should outweigh your ilm. So it is a different way of thinking, a different perspective. There is a strong emphasizes on reflection. When the scholars teach, they don’t spell everything out, the reason they don’t is because reflection is Hugh part of learning. They want you reflect. In Salafism there is a strong emphasizes on the Sunnah of the Prophet, sallahu alayhi wa Salam. In traditional Islam, they not only emphasize the Sunnah of the Prophet, sallahu alayhi was salaam, they also emphasize the Sunnah of Allah. Traditional Islam is a living tradition, it is not stuck back 1400 years ago. Allah is alive now and creating all the time. Allah say, "It is He who created you and what you do" (Qur'an 37:96). Allah isn’t something abstract, Allah is real, everywhere you turn is the face of Allah. Allah is closer to man than your jugular vein. Be mindful of Allah and you’ll find Him in front of you. Everything that is happening around you, whether you agree with it or not, is the decree of Allah. Reflection is an important part of the tradition.
                                !

                                Like I said it is a different culture, they do group dhikr and Mawlid, read and sing Arabic poetry. You don’t see these things being done in Salafi circles. All of this stuff seems weird from a Salafi perspective. What kept me there was the story of Musa and al Khidr, perhaps there is a Shariah basis for it or perhaps there is a wisdom behind it that I don't see.


                                In the beginning most of my knowledge was Salafi based so I didn't know all the traditional Sunni equivalents, I was still reading Salafi books and still listening to their lectures. In the beginning I believed that Salafis and Asharis only differed semantically, a part of me, was also looking for a solution to unite the Asharis and Salafis. Throughout the years, I wavered back and forth with this idea, whether we differed in reality or semantically. Because I knew some really good Salafi brothers. It was hard leaving these brothers behind.


                                If you can find a copy of “Reliance of the Traveller” translated by Shaykh Nuh Keller, a Shafi fiqh book which has a lot of additional information was very helpful in my transition. At the end of the day, I felt, Shafi scholars were more knowledgable than Salafi scholars in almost every way. Bear in mind, I comparing the likes of Imam Nawawi, Imam al Suyuti, Imam Ibn Hajar al Asqalani other Shafi scholars and their legal reasoning with the likes of Shaykh Bin Baz, Ibn Uthaymeen and Al Albani. Shafi arguments made more sense to me. I also had benefit of sitting with a Deobandi Shaykh, who had specialized in Ilm al Hadith, and learned some Hanafi usul. Hanafis aren't no joke. I have a lot of respect with the Hanafi madhab and their legal reasoning.



                                As for me, then I don't agree with the Najdi da3wah and the Salafi explanation like those of Ibn Uthaymeen about the Attributes. These are the main points I'm disagreeing with at the moment, but I find myself also appreciating things about Salafism. One of the things is their strict adherence to rulings. Now I understand their is room for difference of opinion in a lot of matters. And I know this might sound really superficial and trivial, but I'm just struggling with it somehow. I often see the students of al-Azhar and even the muntaqibaat don't dress quite as proper, as well as the men. Another thing I'm having a hard time with is photography. Even among Salafis you find those that take pictures and make videos, but I wasn't one of them. I also didn't listen to those students that did make videos of themselves. Now I find myself all of a sudden exposed to all those videos of men and it's been strange to me. It's like I can't find a single person that was linked here where I'm not exposed to this. I know this might sound really silly and small compared to the things I disagree with but they do bother me. These are just two examples but there are more where I find that outside of Salafis most people are not as conservative in. Now I wonder whether this is a legitimate concern of mine or not.

                                In regards to strictness, reflect on these two hadiths.


                                Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said: "By Him in whose hand is my soul, if you did not sin, Allah would replace you with people who would sin and they would seek forgiveness from Allah and He would forgive them." (Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2749, Grade: Sahih)


                                Bukhari records on the authority of Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said, "Your actions alone will not save any of you." They asked, 'Messenger of Allah, not even you?' He replied, "Not even me, unless Allah were to envelop me in His mercy. Be firm; steadfast and balanced; and journey [to Allah] in the beginning of the day, the end of the day, and a portion of the latter part of the night. Moderation, moderation! Through this will you attain your goal!" [Bukhari]


                                What is moderate for me, may not be moderate for you. Everybodies moderation is different. Everybody sins. What you may find easy, another person may find difficult and what another person may find easy you may find difficult. Remember that before judging your brothers and sisters. Reflect on this Hadith.!


                                Anas ibn Malik re ported: We were sitting with the Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, and he said, “Coming upon you now is a man from the people of Paradise.” A man from the Ansar came whose beard was disheveled by the water of ablution and he was carrying both of his shoes with his left hand. The next day the Prophet repeated the same words, and the man came in the same condition. The third day the Prophet repeated the same again, and the man came in the same condition. When the Prophet stood up to leave, Abdullah ibn Amr followed the man and he said, “I am in a dispute with my father and I have sworn not to enter my home for three days. May I stay with you?” The man said yes. Abdullah stayed three nights with the man but he never saw him praying at night. Whenever he went to bed, he would remember Allah and rest until he woke up for morning prayer. Abdullah said that he never heard anything but good words from his mouth. When three nights had passed and he did not see anything special about his actions, Abdullah asked him, “O servant of Allah, I have not been in dispute with my father nor have I cut relations with him. I heard the Prophet say three times that a man from the people of Paradise was coming to us and then you came. I thought I should stay with you to see what you are doing that I should follow, but I did not see you do anything special. Why did the Prophet speak highly of you?” The man said, “I am as you have seen.” When Abdullah was about to leave, the man said, “I am as you have seen, except that I do not find dishonesty in my soul towards the Muslims and I do not envy anyone because of the good that Allah has given them.” Abdullah said, “This is what you have achieved and it is something we have not accomplished.” Musnad Aḥmad 12286




                                There is nothing wrong with being strict. The way of traditional Sunni Islam is to be strict with oneself, and have mercy on everybody else. And the way to have the most mercy, is to become knowledgeable. It is easier to make excuses for people, when you have knowledge. When see someone doing something that you don’t do, you can say, perhaps he is following the opinion of this shaykh or that shaykh, the Quran say, " Ask those who recall, if you know not " (Qur'an 16:43), referring to the scholars in general, Quran doesn’t say, Ask Imam Nawawi if you don’t know.


                                That said, the Sufi Shaykhs I know are very strict, when it comes to themselves and certain students of knowledge. One of the Sufi Shaykhs that I studied with, didn't believe in having his picture taken also, because his Shaykh in Shafi fiqh, Shaykh Abdul Wakil al Durubi didn't believe in pictures. Shaykh Abdul Wakil, was so strict when it came to pictures he refused to go into homes that had photographs displayed in them because of the hadith that Angels don't enter the homes with pictures in them. However, know that there is a difference of opinion in regards to pictures and because there is a difference of opinion, one must remember to have room for mercy. This Sufi Shaykh that I studied with, said his Shaykh, Shaykh Abdur Rahman al Shaghouri, also didn't like his picture taken, but in certain circumstances, permitted it out of mercy, due to the difference of opinion. Shaykh Abdur Rahman said, as the Prophet, sallahu alayki was salam, was a mercy to the world, so should we be. Shaykh Abdur Rahman al Shaghori, when he went to the market, he would buy the fruits that people would not buy,(ie they were old) but still good enough to eat, as a way of having mercy on the sellers in the market. These Shaykhs were all Shafi in fiqh. These Shaykhs require their female students to wear the face veil, and the men to grow their beards. They are pretty strict.


                                One of the most difficult things about following the Sufi path, unlike Salafism, where you are more concerned about what other people aren't doing correctly, with Sufism, the Shaykhs places a mirror in front of you, and ask what you are doing. One of the things that my Shaykh required us to do, is to study a book of fiqh from cover to cover, and to take all the haram things out of one's life, first, and then to work on all the makroh things out of one's life. The Shaykh also required his students to all recite a juz of Quran everyday. And to make up any missed prayers they have missed in their life. If it was 5 years of missed prayers, he would say, "you better get busy." This is the dominant position in the Shafi madhab, that making up missed prayers is obligatory. This is actually the dominant opinion of all four madhabs. If you find the right shaykh you won't have a problem in finding strictness, that will be the least of your worries. In fact, when you start studying a book of fiqh, (like Umat al Salik by Imam Ahmad Ibn Naqib) from cover to cover, it feels like it is impossible to follow. This is why Tasawwuf should be studied along with studying fiqh. Remember I was saying the focus of tasawwuf is Allah. Tawfiq is from Allah. Success is from Allah. You cannot embark upon the path the Shariah without Allah, implementing it in your life without Allah is almost impossible.


                                You have to realize Allah created us to sin. Abu Huraira reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said: "By Him in whose hand is my soul, if you did not sin, Allah would replace you with people who would sin and they would seek forgiveness from Allah and He would forgive them." (Source: Ṣaḥīḥ Muslim 2749, Grade: Sahih)


                                Be Careful what you ask for. It would be wise to ask Allah to send you to a shaykh that will guide you to Him (Allah), as opposed to Allah sending you to the most strict shaykh.


                                Don’t be concerned too much about this opinion or that opinion. Just be concerned about following a Shaykh who is known for their taqwa and they follow one of the four madhabs.



                                As a disclaimer I'd like to make clear that I know Salafis differ. I've never found a community as 'pure' as the one I'm in and it's definitely not applicable to a lot of other Salafis I've witnessed. This doesn't take from the fact that I disagree with them on matters now and perhaps even before. But it just makes me doubt myself. Like they have a lot of good in my eyes, so I get doubts that maybe I'm the one at wrong and I don't deserve this community any longer due to my sins etc. And that I've been misguided. Again, I know this might sound silly but I don't know how to explain it well. There are just some things I have found here where I'm quite sure you won't find it easily somewhere else and I correlate those things with the truth and pureness in practicing. So that has been one of the hardest things for me personally about leaving Salafism behind.


                                Btw I actually do not believe I'mleaving Salafism behind since I don't belief the Najdi da3wah is deserving of being called that anyway. But I hope you get what I'm saying inshaaAllaah.


                                You are going to have doubts. I had doubts. You have to trust in Allah. Let Allah be your guide. Traditional Sunni Islam is a complete tradition that has been here for over 1000 years representing Ahlus Sunnah Wal Jamaah. It has been tried and tested. Salafism is a new sect. They have nice sounding buzz words and hype, but lack substances. Leaving Salafism was the best decision I ever made. I have no regrets.


                                Salafis don’t have anything to offer me, except how much they hate Asharis and Sufis. Their Aqida doesn’t make sense. Some of them have sound Aqida and some of them are anthropomorphist. Their Minhaj is still evolving, they are still working out their kinks... At one time they were anti-madhab. Now all of the sudden, they follow madhabs. Ajeeb.

                                .
                                Last edited by aMuslimForLife; 03-12-20, 03:12 PM.
                                My Blog ---> Reflections of the Traveler http://baraka.wordpress.com

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