Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Belief of Hanbalis / Atharis (past) vs "Salafis"

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Mavikick View Post

    This thread goes somewhat against them I suppose.
    what do you mean?

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post

      I would like to give an example such that the issue becomes even clearer:

      Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala is al-Basir (i.e. the All-Seeing), so He is decribed with Basar as a divine attribute. The creation is also described with Basar (seeing).
      That which follows from this attribute is the detection or perception of that which can be seen.

      Does this now mean that the Creator is like or similar to the creation in His reality? No!

      When it comes to the Creator, then the reality of Basar is an eternal attribute subsisting in the divine Self and beyond our imagination and not something corporeal nor an organ or a tool.

      When it comes to the creation however, then the reality of their seeing is based on a corporeal organ or tool and their perception of what can be seen is emergent and they need light and it is limited and so on.

      So the only common thing between the Creator and the creation is in naming [and that which follows from the attribute], but NOT in its reality.

      This is how the scholars of Ahl al-Sunnah - be they Hanbali or Ash'ari - have understood this issue.



      Ibn 'Uthaymin however believes in a certain degree of similarity in the very reality!!!
      That is why he claims (as in Majmu' Fatawa) that the Madhhab of the Ahl al-Sunna is that God has two real (!) eyes with which he sees (!) ("مذهب أهل السنة والجماعة أن لله عينين، اثنتين، ينظر بهما حقيقة على الوجه اللائق به , وهما من الصفات الذاتية الثابتة بالكتاب، والسنة.. . فهما عينان حقيقيتان لا تشبهان أعين المخلوقين").

      Note that his statement two real eyes implies corporeality. If he had simply stated that Allah ta'ala is described with 'Ayn or A'yun, then this would not be a problem. The scholars of Islam said that 'Ayn either goes back to the attribute of Basar or is an additional attribute and in every case the reality is beyond our comprehension.
      Then he adds to this that God sees with these two real eyes. So he turns the reality of Basar similar to the seeing of the creation, such that 'Ayn becomes the tool of seeing!!
      This is clear and obvious Tashbih in the very reality of the attributes!!!
      And the one who knows the thinking of this man, knows that he even thinks that God's seeing is only eternal in its kind and that His seeing is subject to temporality (this is why he says "sees with them in reality")!
      This is yet another Tashbih upon his Tashbih regarding Basar and this upon his Tashbih regarding 'Ayn!
      We as Allah ta'ala for well-being.

      A known Hanbali statement regarding these type of issues (as found in Tabaqat al-Hanabila, Nihayat al-Mubtadi`in and other works!): They explicitly state that they reject ascribing similarity (Tashbih) and [ascribing] tools (Adawat).

      So this is yet another great difference between Hanbalis and these so called "Salafis".
      yes Allah azza was jaal doesn't have hands like us, but does has hands best suits His Majesty, and sits on the arsh above the seven heavens.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Bina K View Post
        hanabli is the umbrella of alhe Hadith and salaf us saliah? Is that right?
        So is ummah forum a hanafi forum founder and radio? In a nasheed it said wipe the back of the neck.

        We don't do that in wudu.
        Why not? It's just an ijtihaad of a scholar. And regarding the salafi fiqh, they don't even have it, it doesn't exist. But here brothers are talking about 'aqeedah, not fiqhi issues.

        BTW Ibn Taymiyyah was certainly not from salaf al salih but Abu Hanifa was so I really don't get you.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Mavikick View Post

          Why not? It's just an ijtihaad of a scholar. And regarding the salafi fiqh, they don't even have it, it doesn't exist. But here brothers are talking about 'aqeedah, not fiqhi issues.

          BTW Ibn Taymiyyah was certainly not from salaf al salih but Abu Hanifa was so I really don't get you.
          someone help me explain it

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Bina K View Post

            what do you mean?
            Well I suppose you didn't read all posts. Lots of them are just confused and messed up in 'aqeedah basics.

            Comment


            • oh no I'm not a 'salafi' like abu khadijah.
              He was with green lane masjid at one time.

              Rather im like green lane masjid and similar masjids.
              We are upon the salaf path.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Bina K View Post
                oh no I'm not a 'salafi' like abu khadijah.
                He was with green lane masjid at one time.

                Rather im like green lane masjid and similar masjids.
                We are upon the salaf path.
                I don't get u. U r and u ain't with green lane masjid which I believe is in the UK and I know nothing of. And about Abu Khadijah I know less than zero.

                PS how do you know you are upon the salaf path? How do you know what exactly is the salaf path?

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Abu Sulayman View Post


                  A) Then: You yourself say that "He said no they are only similar in one sense which is the brightness" and this shows that there is no misunderstanding here.
                  I ask you: Do we as Muslims believe that the Creator is similar in one sense with the creation?! No!
                  Go and study any reliable Hanbali or Ash'ari creed book and see whether they will ever make such a claim or whether they will stress the importance that there is no likeness or similarity from any way!

                  B) As for his example with animals, then it‘s even worse, because in this example there is similarity from more than one sense!
                  A) It is unfair to leave it here as it would sound for the people who might read this thread that ibn Uthaymeen’s answer would be yes to your question. There is no similarity in any senses except the PRESENCE of hearing. I have already wrote this in the other comment in upper case letters.
                  here is his words
                  كذلك السمع؛ فيه اشتراك؛ الإنسان له سمع، والخالق له سمع، لكن بينهما فرق، لكن أصل وجود السمع مشترك.
                  فإذا قلنا: من غير تشبيه ونفينا مطلق التشبيه؛ صار في هذا إشكال.
                  وبهذا عرفنا أن التعبير بالتمثيل أولى من ثلاثة أوجه

                  B) I still don’t know why are you applying these examples to make it sound like there is likeness between the creator and the creation Astghfiruallah.
                  it is the usage of the word شبيه and مثيل no more.



                  As for you not to believe that Allah SWT has said in his book that he has hands , eyes, hears , sees, etc... without asking how it looks like and without saying that it is like his creation.
                  this needs a completely different discussion. As there is a lot of Ayat for example that explicitly shows the difference between the eyes itself and الرؤيه Vision.
                  Your words seems like you are following the Asharis and I don’t really know how can someone who is able to read the Quran and ahadith follow them. Alhamduliallah, as someone who is living amongst them, I don’t follow their Aqeedah.

                  Comment


                  • Abu Sulayman

                    if you don’t mind me asking, what books have you read in aqeedah?

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by Farah. A View Post



                      As for you not to believe that Allah SWT has said in his book that he has hands , eyes, hears , sees, etc... without asking how it looks like and without saying that it is like his creation.
                      If you ask me, this I agree with totally. I would just add, to be on the safe side, that what exactly was meant by hands, eyes, etc. is beyond my comprehension. Because I cannot know if those ayat are of the muteshabihah or not.

                      Why not just stop there?

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Mavikick View Post

                        If you ask me, this I agree with totally. I would just add, to be on the safe side, that what exactly was meant by hands, eyes, etc. is beyond my comprehension. Because I cannot know if those ayat are of the muteshabihah or not.

                        Why not just stop there?
                        Because you would be denying something Allah SWT has said about himself. Denying attributes of Allah.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Mavikick View Post

                          I don't get u. U r and u ain't with green lane masjid which I believe is in the UK and I know nothing of. And about Abu Khadijah I know less than zero.

                          PS how do you know you are upon the salaf path? How do you know what exactly is the salaf path?
                          My grandfather was upon this path. Allhumdullia. Blessed to be born into it.

                          Green lane and Abu Khadija have divided themselves in views and opinions. Same beliefs however. Sheik uthameen.

                          Just one freemixes more and the other is very very very strict in freemixing. Luxuries of life in say going in holidays and things about mixing with non Muslims.

                          There are grey areas in some things.
                          They don't see that.
                          Example a woman needs to work not on benefits if she's single with kids.

                          They marry more than one and see that it's fine in not treating them the same.

                          Not everyone but I read some 'salafis' do.

                          They don't mix in society or at work.

                          We sin yes and I know they're right in some way.
                          It's impossible to live like the salaf our predecessors, especially in this country.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Mavikick View Post

                            Well I suppose you didn't read all posts. Lots of them are just confused and messed up in 'aqeedah basics.
                            Did you create this thread?

                            Comment


                            • I see you didn't create this thread.
                              so Ramadan is tomorrow so why are you debating?

                              You have your opinions and beliefs and we have ours.
                              So I think it's just best leaving everything you obviously don't believe or wish to see it from our point of view.

                              Comment


                              • Farah. A

                                What do you and other Egyptian Salafis in general think about studying Hanbali/Athari Aqeedah through the Hanbali program offered at al-Azhar? There were a few "Hanbali scholars" that were referenced earlier in the thread who graduated from al-Azhar. How are figures like these received by the Egyptian Salafi community?

                                Comment

                                Collapse

                                Edit this module to specify a template to display.

                                Working...
                                X