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  • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    Now I want to take some advice from you. (This is actually me taking advice - as in I'll think about your answer and form my opinion on something regarding it).

    If a Muslim has information that he knows that if his brother knew he would probably leave Islam, is it better for him to openly publish that information or is it better to only privately give it to those who need to know?

    Imam Abu Hanifah said what he hated most about disputation (well he was talking about Kalam, but in the context of arguing) is that it gets to the point where an evil desire comes upon those disputing that they actually want their brothers to mess up (which in Kalam generally results in disbelief). This is why I am starting to hate it (arguing about things) more and more. I respect the Athari opinion more as the days go by.

    But on some level we need to convey the truth and stand up for it and stop people who are calling to the fire. I mean if you had the chance of guiding someone to orthodox views (forget orthodox views, just Muslim views) who is sincere (and in the process misguiding someone else who might be insincere), which would you pick?
    It's a problematic question. I don't believe that the views I hold or preach distance people away from Islam except when they are not conveyed correctly or followed by misbehaviour. This is different from the perspective of the Mutakallimeen who literally hold views that the general layperson would naturally find repulsive (be it in Qadr or its distortion of the Dhahir theology).

    If your example is in reference to me in particular then you could convey whatever you wish if you sincerely believe it to be orthodoxy. If what you're saying is true or resonates with me then I hope Allah would enable me with the Tawfiq to accept it without being impeded by arrogance. However, one should also consider the potential damage it could cause depending on the information in light of this being a public forum (assuming where you're going with this).

    Comment


    • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

      It's a problematic question. I don't believe that the views I hold or preach distance people away from Islam except when they are not conveyed correctly or followed by misbehaviour. This is different from the perspective of the Mutakallimeen who literally hold views that the general layperson would naturally find repulsive (be it in Qadr or its distortion of the Dhahir theology).

      If your example is in reference to me in particular then you could convey whatever you wish if you sincerely believe it to be orthodoxy. If what you're saying is true or resonates with me then I hope Allah would enable me with the Tawfiq to accept it without being impeded by arrogance. However, one should also consider the potential damage it could cause depending on the information in light of this being a public forum (assuming where you're going with this).
      Correctly should be replaced with appropriately. What is meant is that there is a mannerism when speaking about the religion which people naturally find persuasive. On the flipside one could insult or shout at a person and they'll end up rejecting the message even if what you were saying was true.

      "So by mercy from Allah, [O Muḥammad], you were lenient with them. And if you had been rude [in speech] and harsh in heart, they would have disbanded from about you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult them in the matter. And when you have decided, then rely upon Allah. Indeed, Allah loves those who rely [upon Him]." [3:159]

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

        (Its not a false dichotomy by the way - I said in the question: "If you had the choice between", sorry if I didn't make it clear enough - I meant that another opinion is not viable due to things the person would know. Its a big "if" for you I know, I just wanted your answer - what you'd rather believe).
        It is a false dichotomy because it assumes that if my current beliefs were proven to be false then the only other options would be Ridda or your 3 creeds. What if I were to alter my views but still not neatly conform with your alternatives? That is also possible.

        The question could equally be directed towards you in that would prefer atheism over believing in the Salafi-Athari God to be true? This is basically what I was battling with when I made this post in the "Problems with Ash'ari Aqeedah" thread:

        Note: My silence is a mercy to my opponents whose theological bubbles I am bursting and from preventing the impressionable amongst us from thinking that the one who writes the longer posts and makes the most amount of assertions has somehow won the debate.
        The "mercy" is holding back from forcefully pushing the narrative that the intended theology of the religion promotes a God which the Mutakallimoon believe is irrational and cannot exist. This is why it is important to introduce figures like Kant (which I have with you in the past) and demonstrate that the standard being used to charge the Athari purists with Tajsim is itself epistemologically shaky and unjustified.

        Comment


        • This is a BOOK CLUB, take your back and forth elsewhere.

          Just finished Millennium Discourses and started Pachinko.
          Per aspera ad astra.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Al-Mualim View Post
            This is a BOOK CLUB, take your back and forth elsewhere.
            Agreed. Didn't think the innocent questions I asked would have led to this odd turn of events.

            Muhammad hasan

            Feel free to private message me or quote me in a topic that is more relevant. The least I will do is read what you might have to say.

            Jazakallahu Khayr.

            Comment


            • ...
              Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 11-01-21, 03:08 PM. Reason: Dumb comment made in a moment of stupidy.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                I came to a decision last night after a lot of emotion, but after reading about your "Mercy" now I reverse my decision. I have lost the Jihad for what is good in my heart. The Sunnah has left me. My heart has become hard. I will follow my Nafs instead of my Aql. (You'll see what I mean from my PM to you).

                The one who insults the Ulama like you should have a sword put to you so you are forced to accept. Then you can accept or spiritually die. I've made my decision and I pick what is unwise. If people on the forum have doubts, I no longer care. The angels are the witnesses to my sins and the ones I intend to commit. I am an arrogant person, but if I use my own arrogance to put down someone like you then I've put my arrogance to use.

                If multiple people leave Islam because of what I write I don't care. You are scum if you decide to apostate.

                I'll PM you some stuff and then open a new thread In Sha Allah.

                May Allah guide you to the straight path. There is no guidance except from Him.
                Go renew your Wudhu and fear Allah brother.

                Sayyiduna Ali(ra) said:

                Abu al-Tufayl reported: Ali ibn Abi Talib, may Allah be pleased with him, said, “Speak to people only according to their level of knowledge. Would you like for Allah and His Messenger to be denied?” [Bukhari]

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Al-Mualim View Post
                  This is a BOOK CLUB, take your back and forth elsewhere.

                  Just finished Millennium Discourses and started Pachinko.
                  Yeah I leave all this bickering. Allah guides who He wills. If you try and force something on someone you'll just end up harming them and yourself.

                  I've got Marmaduke Pickthall (Rahimullah Alay)'s Sir Limpidus on my desk. Will start reading that after I have sorted a few things out.

                  Comment


                  • i never thought book club would turn out like this

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                      Go renew your Wudhu..
                      I only recently noticed that this statement (which I've used before in the past) isn't necessarily appropriate because the individual might not have been in a state of Wudhu for them to renew it. Next time I'll just use "go make Wudhu" if the situation calls for it.

                      Khayr inshaAllah.
                      Last edited by AmantuBillahi; 12-01-21, 11:14 PM. Reason: Even "go make a fresh Wudhu" insinuates already having it.

                      Comment


                      • "A Guide to Syllogisms, or a Manual of Logic" by Charles Wesley.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                          "A Guide to Syllogisms, or a Manual of Logic" by Charles Wesley.
                          it wouls be better for laymen on uf to read books by muslims rather than kuffar on subjects of logic or philosophy.

                          Tbh some ulama might even say its better laymen stay away from these subjects completely.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Abu julaybeeb View Post

                            it wouls be better for laymen on uf to read books by muslims rather than kuffar on subjects of logic or philosophy.

                            Tbh some ulama might even say its better laymen stay away from these subjects completely.
                            I would actually agree in some sense with regards to the last book I posted. However this specific book is only teaching formal logic and doesn't pose a threat to our beliefs in any way.

                            Comment


                            • "Al-Muhaddithat: The Women Scholars in Islam" by Dr. Akram Nadwi:

                              https://kalamullah.com/muhaddithat.h...V0q2wAjktH3xr0

                              I haven't read it myself but I think he's expecting to release another book on a similiar subject in the near future.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                                I haven't read it myself but I think he's expecting to release another book on a similiar subject in the near future.
                                Nevermind. That's going to be a 53 volume book presumably in Arabic.

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