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  • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
    Muhammad Hasan

    Not to deter you from responding but if your post is exceeding long then don't expect me to match it. You are more than welcomed to create a thread and explain why you believe Shaykh Hatem al-Haj (Hafidhahullah) was wrong for relying on Immanuel Kant to defuse the troubling aspects of rational metaphysics as self-proclaimed Athari.

    Note: I'm obviously not categorically endorsing the philosophical views of Immanuel Kant. What I really agree with him on is the speculative nature of metaphysical rationalism. This is also the view of Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (Rahimahullah).
    If you followed the clear verses of the Qur'an and the Hadith I quoted to you instead of individuals who came later and were opposed to or ignored by the Sunni scholars, you would not have found any troubling aspects.

    Fundamentally you believe Aql and Naql contradict, and you cover this, and you cannot prove a Christian is wrong according to your understanding of Aql, and that will haunt you until you give up this conception.

    Also I asked you about a Hadith from Tirmidhi and you never replied on that - until you find an answer to that Hadith - I will not bother with you. I quoted to you explicit Hadith on practically all issues you have with Sunni groups and certain Sunni positions (even the Ash'ari/Maturidi view of Kalamullah), and I quoted to the other brother explicit Hadith on Qadar. I can't be bothered to argue anymore, and arguing with you is for me to give up what is better.

    If you were an Athari then your argumentation would have stopped with the Hadith.

    So I conclude you are not Athari. And may Allah bless the Athari.

    Accept the Hadith or you are not from us.

    That is all, I won't argue with you or start a thread. The outskirts of Jannah are better.

    I won't be replying to you again on this topic, but I am sure we have much to discuss on other issues e.g. Shaykh Ali Ataei and Muslim views of the gospels. I look forward to those discussions.
    Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 07-01-21, 02:02 AM.
    Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
    "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
    Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

    Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
    1/116

    Comment


    • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
      For the person who loves links, a good article on some of Kant's views:

      https://abdullahalandalusi.com/2016/...han-the-koran/
      Admittingly, I am someone who loves sharing sources and providing links for my views. I welcome you to also do the same and I'll most probably check them out. Unfortunately, the link you provided had nothing to do with resolving the epistemic problem of "rational metaphysics".

      I hate Kant because he is a Kafir philosopher with provably irrational views, and he also hates Muslims himself. He also does not believe in Allah Azza Wa Jal.

      I.e. Kant is an Atheist, quoted by the Atheists to solve problems in Atheist ethics, he does not actually believe in God the way we do..
      You hate Kant and we (the Atharis and Ahl al-Hadith) hate Aristotle and the rest of the Greek philosophers who infiltrated mainstream Islamic theology. It is the Falasifa and Mutakallimoon who are influenced and dependant upon the philosophers, not the other way around.

      Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
      They have no certainty.
      This certainty that you have claim for yourself is nothing but a delusion. If it was certain then I would have no reason to reject it myself.

      Our certainty is with the Dhahir theology of the Quran & Sunnah without the infiltration of speculative metaphysical proofs. Compromising the obvious meanings of the revelation removes any certainty of the revelation being from God in the first place.


      Anyway, I am getting Déjà vu so I will end this.

      I will not continue to argue with my brother in what I know to be right, there is no point in arguing with a blind follower who reasoned to himself that it is only logical that I speak out against the book being recommended. When I chose and started to write it, I did not even have what he wrote in mind nor Hatem al-Hajj's book - I had Tahafut al-Falasifah and Islamic history in mind. I have given my brother the warning, it is prohibited to read philosophy, and I choose for myself what is better.

      I am greatful to Allah when I think of my brother and how I could have gone down that path. I tell anyone reading this - stick to the Hadith. The Qur'an and Hadith will guide you. Never let anyone take that away from you. Stick to the Jama'ah and al-Sawadh al-Adham, Yadullah is with the Jama'ah. If you cannot find it now, then seek it in the past with the Qur'an and Sunnah as your guide and pray to be guided. Insha'Allah you will find it.

      May Allah bless and guide my brother to Himself and do so for me.
      Likewise I pray for you brother. InshaAllah I have planted a seed in your heart that will make you reconsider the validity of your convicitions some day.

      May Allah rectify our affairs and guide us to that which is correct. Ameen.

      Comment


      • Likewise I pray for you brother. InshaAllah I have planted a seed in your heart that will make you reconsider the validity of your convicitions some day.
        The seed of disbelief and doubt,
        will never find room to sprout,
        in a soil that does excell,
        in which the good seeds' plants swell,
        so long as the tiller strives,
        works to keep the soil alive,
        then the weeds will never grow.


        May Allah rectify our affairs and guide us to that which is correct. Ameen.
        May we all be able to accept what is correct, whatever it is, and al-Haqq knows that well. He knows all things and His knowledge is infinite without end and there is no increase or decrease for him.

        I recommend the dua of Imam al-Ghazali:
        اللهم أرني الحق حقاً وارزقني اتباعه ، وأرني الباطل باطلا وارزقني اجتنابه



        Allahumma ariniyal haqqa haqqaw warzuqniyat tiba’ah, wa ariniyal batila batilaw warzuqniyaj tinabah

        O Allah! show us the truth as true, and inspire us to follow it. Show us falsehood as falsehood, and inspire us to abstain from it.
        Do we say things for Allah or other than him?
        Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 07-01-21, 03:24 AM. Reason: Allah is alone as-Salam.
        Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
        "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
        Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

        Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
        1/116

        Comment


        • Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

          What's it about?
          "This book is a collection of impromptu discourses delivered by Shaykh Etsko Schuitema after sessions of dhikr with his students.


          Using numerous real-life examples, the shaykh peels back the facade of the everyday to reveal the realities of the way we live our lives, and the relationship we have with the One who created us."
          Per aspera ad astra.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by Al-Mualim
            Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

            What's it about?
            "This book is a collection of impromptu discourses delivered by Shaykh Etsko Schuitema after sessions of dhikr with his students.


            Using numerous real-life examples, the shaykh peels back the facade of the everyday to reveal the realities of the way we live our lives, and the relationship we have with the One who created us."
            Cool, sounds like the type of book is read

            I've seen you post a few times about reading books, you into reading? Alhamdulillah Allahumma Bareek 👍

            Please post beneficial snippets of the book in this thread on sha Allah 🙏😇

            https://www.ummah.com/forum/forum/library/islamic-books-reviews/12751201-beneficial-snippet-from-islamic-books#post12752347

            Comment


            • Muhammad Hasan

              1. Have you read Kalam Cosmological Arguments by Mohammad Hijab?

              2. What are your thoughts as a Maturidi when you see that the "Salafis" are at the forefront of the atheism vs. theism debate scene?

              3. Why aren't the Ash'aris or Maturidis leading the charge in this regard considering how central proving the existence of God is within their Madhhab?

              4. If the Ash'aris or Maturidis participated in public debates do you think that they would use bodies and accidents (Dalil al-Aradh wal Huduth al-Ajsam) like the classical Mutakallimoon or popular renditions of the KCA and contingency argument (i.e. what Hamza Tzortsis, Mohammad Hijab and William Lane Craig use)?

              Comment


              • Muhammad Hasan

                Come to think of it Abdullah al-Andalusi has engaged in public debates and Asrar Rashid took on an atheist not too long ago. However their debates do not seem to gain much traction nor do their opponents carry the same clout (in comparison to Krauss for example).

                I don't think it's unreasonable to expect much more from the Ash'ari camp. How do you explain this scenario?

                Comment


                • Muhammad Hasan

                  I noticed that you usually takes Sundays off from the forum. No problem if you think this is off-topic and would prefer not to discuss it. I would imagine that the answer is somewhere in between acknowledging our incompetence in modern times and preventing the masses from being exposed to unnecessary doubts. Not to mention Ilm al-Kalam's primary purpose was to set up a defense for the religion rather than put forth an argument.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                    Muhammad Hasan

                    I noticed that you usually takes Sundays off from the forum. No problem if you think this is off-topic and would prefer not to discuss it. I would imagine that the answer is somewhere in between acknowledging our incompetence in modern times and preventing the masses from being exposed to unnecessary doubts. Not to mention Ilm al-Kalam's primary purpose was to set up a defense for the religion rather than put forth an argument.
                    I told you, I don't discuss these issues with you anymore. Also I'm writing a post on the Ahruf that you should read. Want to get your view on that.
                    Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                    "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                    Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                    Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                    1/116

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post
                      Muhammad Hasan

                      I noticed that you usually takes Sundays off from the forum. No problem if you think this is off-topic and would prefer not to discuss it. I would imagine that the answer is somewhere in between acknowledging our incompetence in modern times and preventing the masses from being exposed to unnecessary doubts. Not to mention Ilm al-Kalam's primary purpose was to set up a defense for the religion rather than put forth an argument.
                      My fear for you is that you hate something so much, that if you were put between a rock and a hard place, you would leave.

                      Can I ask you an unrelated question?

                      If you had the choice between leaving Islam and being an Ash'ari/Maturidi/True Athari, which would you pick?
                      Last edited by Muhammad Hasan; 10-01-21, 08:30 PM.
                      Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                      "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                      Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                      Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                      1/116

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                        I told you, I don't discuss these issues with you anymore. Also I'm writing a post on the Ahruf that you should read. Want to get your view on that.
                        No problem. I was actually asking out of genuine curiousity not looking for a debate. If you want you could post a brief reply and I won't offer a response unless it will enrich the discussion positively.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                          My fear for you is that you hate something so much, that if you were put between a rock and a hard place, you would leave.

                          Can I ask you an unrelated question?

                          If you had the choice between leaving Islam and being an Ash'ari/Maturidi/True Athari, which would you pick?
                          The question itself is problematic. In order for me to believe in something I would actually need to be convinced by it. If I don't believe in the integrity of the Ash'ari/Maturidi/what you conceive as "true Athari" creeds then why would I follow that religion? It's almost like asking a Unitarian Christian what they would do if they were forced to accept Trinitarianism or atheism. It's a false dichotomy.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                            The question itself is problematic. In order for me to believe in something I would actually need to be convinced by it. If I don't believe in the integrity of the Ash'ari/Maturidi/what you conceive as "true Athari" creeds then why would I follow that religion? It's almost like asking a Unitarian Christian what they would do if they were forced to accept Trinitarianism or atheism. It's a false dichotomy.
                            Now I want to take some advice from you. (This is actually me taking advice - as in I'll think about your answer and form my opinion on something regarding it).

                            If a Muslim has information that he knows that if his brother knew he would probably leave Islam, is it better for him to openly publish that information or is it better to only privately give it to those who need to know?

                            Imam Abu Hanifah said what he hated most about disputation (well he was talking about Kalam, but in the context of arguing) is that it gets to the point where an evil desire comes upon those disputing that they actually want their brothers to mess up (which in Kalam generally results in disbelief). This is why I am starting to hate it (arguing about things) more and more. I respect the Athari opinion more as the days go by.

                            But on some level we need to convey the truth and stand up for it and stop people who are calling to the fire. I mean if you had the chance of guiding someone to orthodox views (forget orthodox views, just Muslim views) who is sincere (and in the process misguiding someone else who might be insincere), which would you pick?
                            Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                            "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                            Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                            Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                            1/116

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                              Now I want to take some advice from you. (This is actually me taking advice - as in I'll think about your answer and form my opinion on something regarding it).

                              If a Muslim has information that he knows that if his brother knew he would probably leave Islam, is it better for him to openly publish that information or is it better to only privately give it to those who need to know?

                              Imam Abu Hanifah said what he hated most about disputation (well he was talking about Kalam, but in the context of arguing) is that it gets to the point where an evil desire comes upon those disputing that they actually want their brothers to mess up (which in Kalam generally results in disbelief). This is why I am starting to hate it (arguing about things) more and more. I respect the Athari opinion more as the days go by.

                              But on some level we need to convey the truth and stand up for it and stop people who are calling to the fire. I mean if you had the chance of guiding someone to orthodox views who is sincere (and in the process misguiding someone else who might be insincere), which would you pick?
                              (My Question is serious, it isn't some kind of debating point or something).
                              Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                              "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                              Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                              Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                              1/116

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by AmantuBillahi View Post

                                The question itself is problematic. In order for me to believe in something I would actually need to be convinced by it. If I don't believe in the integrity of the Ash'ari/Maturidi/what you conceive as "true Athari" creeds then why would I follow that religion? It's almost like asking a Unitarian Christian what they would do if they were forced to accept Trinitarianism or atheism. It's a false dichotomy.
                                (Its not a false dichotomy by the way - I said in the question: "If you had the choice between", sorry if I didn't make it clear enough - I meant that another opinion is not viable due to things the person would know. Its a big "if" for you I know, I just wanted your answer - what you'd rather believe).
                                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                                1/116

                                Comment

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