Ads by Muslim Ad Network

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Is Jinn Posession Real?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Eyas Shah
    replied
    Is Jinn possession real? Yeah!

    Leave a comment:


  • TheHaqq
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    I do no want to argue with you on this, this is my last reply - this is not a point of Aqeedah, and even if it was I prefer what is better.

    The point was this: There are three positions you could hold:

    1. Jinn Possession is real/has a reality.
    2. Jinn Possession is definitely fake - it is not real and has no truth to it. All people who say they were possessed are mentally ill etc.
    3. We make Tawaqquf - we don't say either way as it is an issue of Samiyyat with (it is argued) no clear Ayah/Mutawatir Hadith (or Authentic Khabar Ahad Hadith according to Athari Usul).

    Now my issue with you is, for some reason you take option number 2.

    I have explained to you - just because you have an explanation for some/many cases that doesn't explain them all. I have said there evidences in the Qur'an and Hadith on this which the vast majority of scholars have interpreted to mean possession is real. It has been experienced by people all over the world and in multiple cultures. The trustworthy Ulama who are skeptical - like Shaykh Asrar Rashid, even devised tests to see whether the person is faking it (this would also detect mental illness instead). The Ulama who talk on this issue all acknowledge that a lot of cases are just people with illnesses.

    I am asking you:

    Why are you making the leap?

    Why do you say "we have X explanations therefore all cases are explained?" Now you retort to me that the verses aren't so clear. Ok for sake of argument let me say "the verses aren't clear".

    So why do you default to option number 2? You reject something by default? Shouldn't you suspend judgement?

    "But it has explanations..." But you are making an inference here - you are saying your explanations which can explain some/most cases explain all cases. That is an irrational inference.

    Let's say I see all white swans. "Therefore black swans don't exist" Wrong! All that proves is that I do not have evidence for black swans existing. My formal position on black swans is that I don't know whether they exist, they could or couldn't. I do not have positive evidence giving certainty that they don't exist. And when people from one part of the world went to another part they affirmed the existance of black swans - this is the black swan fallacy.

    This is what you are doing. Have you yourself analysed one hundred percent of cases. Have you got revelation from Allah telling you that Jinn do not possess? Then why are you making your inference into certainty?

    Or do you believe in default rejection? Why??

    This is why I have tremendous respect for the Ash'ari/Maturidi and even Ibn Hazm. They are theologians. They don't make these silly assumptions, they use proper reason, which isn't intuition or some simple syllogism that rests on faulty premises.

    Anyway, that is my view. To each there own - this isn't an issue of Aqeedah - but it concerns me as the sort of person who generally holds these views will hold other views which are issues of Aqeedah.

    May Allah who alone is al-Alim and al-Hakim and al-Wajid and al-Qadir increase us in knowledge and decree for us certainty.
    I understand your question now.

    The reason I hold 2) as my view is because if it was real, the prophet would have told us as it is a serious issue that would potentially affect muslims and their eman/daily lives a lot.

    I cannot think of anything that would affect his ummah that he did not tell us about.

    To say he told us to seek medicine, but not ruqya for Jinn posession is absolutely absurd. All we find is verses and ahadith about seeking refuge from the whispers of shaytan.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    I do no want to argue with you on this, this is my last reply - this is not a point of Aqeedah, and even if it was I prefer what is better.

    The point was this: There are three positions you could hold:

    1. Jinn Possession is real/has a reality.
    2. Jinn Possession is definitely fake - it is not real and has no truth to it. All people who say they were possessed are mentally ill etc.
    3. We make Tawaqquf - we don't say either way as it is an issue of Samiyyat with (it is argued) no clear Ayah/Mutawatir Hadith (or Authentic Khabar Ahad Hadith according to Athari Usul).

    Now my issue with you is, for some reason you take option number 2.

    I have explained to you - just because you have an explanation for some/many cases that doesn't explain them all. I have said there evidences in the Qur'an and Hadith on this which the vast majority of scholars have interpreted to mean possession is real. It has been experienced by people all over the world and in multiple cultures. The trustworthy Ulama who are skeptical - like Shaykh Asrar Rashid, even devised tests to see whether the person is faking it (this would also detect mental illness instead). The Ulama who talk on this issue all acknowledge that a lot of cases are just people with illnesses.

    I am asking you:

    Why are you making the leap?

    Why do you say "we have X explanations therefore all cases are explained?" Now you retort to me that the verses aren't so clear. Ok for sake of argument let me say "the verses aren't clear".

    So why do you default to option number 2? You reject something by default? Shouldn't you suspend judgement?

    "But it has explanations..." But you are making an inference here - you are saying your explanations which can explain some/most cases explain all cases. That is an irrational inference.

    Let's say I see all white swans. "Therefore black swans don't exist" Wrong! All that proves is that I do not have evidence for black swans existing. My formal position on black swans is that I don't know whether they exist, they could or couldn't. I do not have positive evidence giving certainty that they don't exist. And when people from one part of the world went to another part they affirmed the existance of black swans - this is the black swan fallacy.

    This is what you are doing. Have you yourself analysed one hundred percent of cases. Have you got revelation from Allah telling you that Jinn do not possess? Then why are you making your inference into certainty?

    Or do you believe in default rejection? Why??

    This is why I have tremendous respect for the Ash'ari/Maturidi and even Ibn Hazm. They are theologians. They don't make these silly assumptions, they use proper reason, which isn't intuition or some simple syllogism that rests on faulty premises.

    Anyway, that is my view. To each there own - this isn't an issue of Aqeedah - but it concerns me as the sort of person who generally holds these views will hold other views which are issues of Aqeedah.

    May Allah who alone is al-Alim and al-Hakim and al-Wajid and al-Qadir increase us in knowledge and decree for us certainty.
    * do not.

    Insha'Allah one day the edit function will cease disappearing.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    I do no want to argue with you on this, this is my last reply - this is not a point of Aqeedah, and even if it was I prefer what is better.

    The point was this: There are three positions you could hold:

    1. Jinn Possession is real/has a reality.
    2. Jinn Possession is definitely fake - it is not real and has no truth to it. All people who say they were possessed are mentally ill etc.
    3. We make Tawaqquf - we don't say either way as it is an issue of Samiyyat with (it is argued) no clear Ayah/Mutawatir Hadith (or Authentic Khabar Ahad Hadith according to Athari Usul).

    Now my issue with you is, for some reason you take option number 2.

    I have explained to you - just because you have an explanation for some/many cases that doesn't explain them all. I have said there evidences in the Qur'an and Hadith on this which the vast majority of scholars have interpreted to mean possession is real. It has been experienced by people all over the world and in multiple cultures. The trustworthy Ulama who are skeptical - like Shaykh Asrar Rashid, even devised tests to see whether the person is faking it (this would also detect mental illness instead). The Ulama who talk on this issue all acknowledge that a lot of cases are just people with illnesses.

    I am asking you:

    Why are you making the leap?

    Why do you say "we have X explanations therefore all cases are explained?" Now you retort to me that the verses aren't so clear. Ok for sake of argument let me say "the verses aren't clear".

    So why do you default to option number 2? You reject something by default? Shouldn't you suspend judgement?

    "But it has explanations..." But you are making an inference here - you are saying your explanations which can explain some/most cases explain all cases. That is an irrational inference.

    Let's say I see all white swans. "Therefore black swans don't exist" Wrong! All that proves is that I do not have evidence for black swans existing. My formal position on black swans is that I don't know whether they exist, they could or couldn't. I do not have positive evidence giving certainty that they don't exist. And when people from one part of the world went to another part they affirmed the existance of black swans - this is the black swan fallacy.

    This is what you are doing. Have you yourself analysed one hundred percent of cases. Have you got revelation from Allah telling you that Jinn do not possess? Then why are you making your inference into certainty?

    Or do you believe in default rejection? Why??

    This is why I have tremendous respect for the Ash'ari/Maturidi and even Ibn Hazm. They are theologians. They don't make these silly assumptions, they use proper reason, which isn't intuition or some simple syllogism that rests on faulty premises.

    Anyway, that is my view. To each there own - this isn't an issue of Aqeedah - but it concerns me as the sort of person who generally holds these views will hold other views which are issues of Aqeedah.

    May Allah who alone is al-Alim and al-Hakim and al-Wajid and al-Qadir increase us in knowledge and decree for us certainty.
    My position is position number 1 by the way, based off of evidence.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post
    Wallahi it really does amaze me, if you want to blindly follow scholars just because they are ahlusunnah, then do go ahead, but I told you I don't care who says what, Allah has given me a brain to think with so I will use it. Now lets break down what you said.



    So you are using the phase beating into insanity to prove possession? I never used this verse alone to prove whispers, there are numerous clear cut verses that do that. Also, negative thoughts can make a person become insane and even commit suicide, but still I will not use this verse to prove whispers.

    (38:41) And remember Our servant Job:41 when he cried to his Lord: “Behold, Satan has afflicted me with much hardship and suffering.

    The same word "Mass" is used here and in the verse you provided, why in one place does it mean possession and in another meaning something else, why the double standards? Please do explain clearly, I hate mental gymnastics.



    I know what most scholars said, are you pulling out the majority card to prove your point now? We even have many people now believing that Jinn have sex with women and can delay menstruation, I wonder where that belief initially came from, any idea?



    Again, you are using an extremely weak argument, that just because it is possible then it may be true or is true and it explains "evidence" in the real world. The problem is that you already came to that conclusion and then applied it to the real world.
    I do no want to argue with you on this, this is my last reply - this is not a point of Aqeedah, and even if it was I prefer what is better.

    The point was this: There are three positions you could hold:

    1. Jinn Possession is real/has a reality.
    2. Jinn Possession is definitely fake - it is not real and has no truth to it. All people who say they were possessed are mentally ill etc.
    3. We make Tawaqquf - we don't say either way as it is an issue of Samiyyat with (it is argued) no clear Ayah/Mutawatir Hadith (or Authentic Khabar Ahad Hadith according to Athari Usul).

    Now my issue with you is, for some reason you take option number 2.

    I have explained to you - just because you have an explanation for some/many cases that doesn't explain them all. I have said there evidences in the Qur'an and Hadith on this which the vast majority of scholars have interpreted to mean possession is real. It has been experienced by people all over the world and in multiple cultures. The trustworthy Ulama who are skeptical - like Shaykh Asrar Rashid, even devised tests to see whether the person is faking it (this would also detect mental illness instead). The Ulama who talk on this issue all acknowledge that a lot of cases are just people with illnesses.

    I am asking you:

    Why are you making the leap?

    Why do you say "we have X explanations therefore all cases are explained?" Now you retort to me that the verses aren't so clear. Ok for sake of argument let me say "the verses aren't clear".

    So why do you default to option number 2? You reject something by default? Shouldn't you suspend judgement?

    "But it has explanations..." But you are making an inference here - you are saying your explanations which can explain some/most cases explain all cases. That is an irrational inference.

    Let's say I see all white swans. "Therefore black swans don't exist" Wrong! All that proves is that I do not have evidence for black swans existing. My formal position on black swans is that I don't know whether they exist, they could or couldn't. I do not have positive evidence giving certainty that they don't exist. And when people from one part of the world went to another part they affirmed the existance of black swans - this is the black swan fallacy.

    This is what you are doing. Have you yourself analysed one hundred percent of cases. Have you got revelation from Allah telling you that Jinn do not possess? Then why are you making your inference into certainty?

    Or do you believe in default rejection? Why??

    This is why I have tremendous respect for the Ash'ari/Maturidi and even Ibn Hazm. They are theologians. They don't make these silly assumptions, they use proper reason, which isn't intuition or some simple syllogism that rests on faulty premises.

    Anyway, that is my view. To each there own - this isn't an issue of Aqeedah - but it concerns me as the sort of person who generally holds these views will hold other views which are issues of Aqeedah.

    May Allah who alone is al-Alim and al-Hakim and al-Wajid and al-Qadir increase us in knowledge and decree for us certainty.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheHaqq
    replied
    Wallahi it really does amaze me, if you want to blindly follow scholars just because they are ahlusunnah, then do go ahead, but I told you I don't care who says what, Allah has given me a brain to think with so I will use it. Now lets break down what you said.

    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    The Ayah of the Qur'an talks of Shaytan beating someone into Insanity. "Shaytan just whispers"
    So you are using the phase beating into insanity to prove possession? I never used this verse alone to prove whispers, there are numerous clear cut verses that do that. Also, negative thoughts can make a person become insane and even commit suicide, but still I will not use this verse to prove whispers.

    (38:41) And remember Our servant Job:41 when he cried to his Lord: “Behold, Satan has afflicted me with much hardship and suffering.

    The same word "Mass" is used here and in the verse you provided, why in one place does it mean possession and in another meaning something else, why the double standards? Please do explain clearly, I hate mental gymnastics.

    The vast majority of the scholars have explained this as possession, and the Hadith reinforces that and then peoples experience adds to it. In fact I even read once of a Mu'tazili judge who accepted it once he saw it. Even the trustworthy scholars are saying this has a reality, and they have methods to check if it is faked or not, and their methods confirm it is real (listen to the lecture of Shaykh Asrar Rashid).

    My question is where does you onus for rejection come from?
    I know what most scholars said, are you pulling out the majority card to prove your point now? We even have many people now believing that Jinn have sex with women and can delay menstruation, I wonder where that belief initially came from, any idea?

    "There are explanations" but those explanations do not negate that some of them are real - that is an assumption you make.

    So where does the onus for rejection come from? It is not like you are even doing Tawaqquf on this issue - if you did that I couldn't criticise you arguably (although I'd still say the majority opposes you). I just want to know where the reason for rejection comes from.

    Nevertheless, this is not an issue of Aqeedah and certainty (but it is related to real issues of Aqeedah and Hadith rejection etc. like those who deny Sihr).

    So I will leave you to decide - but my point is that you are being inconsistent and are rejecting something for no reason. At least say you have no stance until you've seen for yourself the evidence - that would be fairer, even though I say the evidence is already out there and is abundant.
    Again, you are using an extremely weak argument, that just because it is possible then it may be true or is true and it explains "evidence" in the real world. The problem is that you already came to that conclusion and then applied it to the real world.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

    Even the second part of the hadith does not prove what you are saying. Shaytan running through my veins does not mean he has control over me, how you add words to these narrations really does amaze me.

    You did exactly the same thing with the verse, prove to me that it means possess.

    What bothers and amazes me is that there is no evidence for Jinn possession, even though it is very serious (apparently), yet many scholars believed in it. As someone who thinks and does not blindly follow, I just cannot accept it, may Allah reward you for your efforts but the evidence takes precedence according to my principles.
    The Ayah of the Qur'an talks of Shaytan beating someone into Insanity. "Shaytan just whispers"

    The vast majority of the scholars have explained this as possession, and the Hadith reinforces that and then peoples experience adds to it. In fact I even read once of a Mu'tazili judge who accepted it once he saw it. Even the trustworthy scholars are saying this has a reality, and they have methods to check if it is faked or not, and their methods confirm it is real (listen to the lecture of Shaykh Asrar Rashid).

    My question is where does you onus for rejection come from?

    "There are explanations" but those explanations do not negate that some of them are real - that is an assumption you make.

    So where does the onus for rejection come from? It is not like you are even doing Tawaqquf on this issue - if you did that I couldn't criticise you arguably (although I'd still say the majority opposes you). I just want to know where the reason for rejection comes from.

    Nevertheless, this is not an issue of Aqeedah and certainty (but it is related to real issues of Aqeedah and Hadith rejection etc. like those who deny Sihr).

    So I will leave you to decide - but my point is that you are being inconsistent and are rejecting something for no reason. At least say you have no stance until you've seen for yourself the evidence - that would be fairer, even though I say the evidence is already out there and is abundant.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheHaqq
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    * Muqaddimah upon his Sharh of Sahih Muslim (Introduction to his commentary). Type things fast and you leave important details out.
    That's fine, still not proof for you, it's clearly not talking about control/possession

    Leave a comment:


  • TheHaqq
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    Just checking.
    Allah says that the Jinn exist and whisper evil, this is clear cut evidence, how you compare this to possession is quite amazing if I'm being honest.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    By principles of Hadith, all authentic riwayat of Hadith are accepted unless there is reason to perform Tarjih - you performed Tarjih' with no reason. So the Hadith is still against you.

    (If you do not understand why this is let me explain - you are saying the first Hadith is an incomplete version of the second, accusing the narrators of the first of forgetting. This is logically equivalent to the claim that the narrators of the first reported correctly and a Ziyadah is from the second. This is why we don't do Tarjih' arbitrarily. I can quote the Muqaddimah of Imam an-Nawawi upon Sahih Muslim on this if you think I am making this up.)

    On the verse of the Qur'an you performed simple contradiction without giving evidence or any reasoning etc. so your point is rejected.

    Now tell me, what exactly is it really that bothers you about these?
    * Muqaddimah upon his Sharh of Sahih Muslim (Introduction to his commentary). Type things fast and you leave important details out.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheHaqq
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    By principles of Hadith, all authentic riwayat of Hadith are accepted unless there is reason to perform Tarjih - you performed Tarjih' with no reason. So the Hadith is still against you.

    (If you do not understand why this is let me explain - you are saying the first Hadith is an incomplete version of the second, accusing the narrators of the first of forgetting. This is logically equivalent to the claim that the narrators of the first reported correctly and a Ziyadah is from the second. This is why we don't do Tarjih' arbitrarily. I can quote the Muqaddimah of Imam an-Nawawi upon Sahih Muslim on this if you think I am making this up.)

    On the verse of the Qur'an you performed simple contradiction without giving evidence or any reasoning etc. so your point is rejected.

    Now tell me, what exactly is it really that bothers you about these?
    Even the second part of the hadith does not prove what you are saying. Shaytan running through my veins does not mean he has control over me, how you add words to these narrations really does amaze me.

    You did exactly the same thing with the verse, prove to me that it means possess.

    What bothers and amazes me is that there is no evidence for Jinn possession, even though it is very serious (apparently), yet many scholars believed in it. As someone who thinks and does not blindly follow, I just cannot accept it, may Allah reward you for your efforts but the evidence takes precedence according to my principles.

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post


    The verse has nothing to do with Jinn posession, the same word "Mass" is used in the story of Ayyub AS, it does NOT mean possession.

    That hadith is evidence is against you, lets bring the full hadith:



    Were these companions possessed by Jinns? Absolutely not, it was just the Prophet ï·º mentioning the wasawasah of the Shaytaan.

    Anything else?
    By principles of Hadith, all authentic riwayat of Hadith are accepted unless there is reason to perform Tarjih - you performed Tarjih' with no reason. So the Hadith is still against you.

    (If you do not understand why this is let me explain - you are saying the first Hadith is an incomplete version of the second, accusing the narrators of the first of forgetting. This is logically equivalent to the claim that the narrators of the first reported correctly and a Ziyadah is from the second. This is why we don't do Tarjih' arbitrarily. I can quote the Muqaddimah of Imam an-Nawawi upon Sahih Muslim on this if you think I am making this up.)

    On the verse of the Qur'an you performed simple contradiction without giving evidence or any reasoning etc. so your point is rejected.

    Now tell me, what exactly is it really that bothers you about these?

    Leave a comment:


  • Muhammad Hasan
    replied
    Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

    Does any muslim reject Jinn and Angels?! Have some positive thoughts brother.
    Just checking.

    Leave a comment:


  • TheHaqq
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    Qur'an and Sunnah.

    I can tell that this isn't the reason you reject it - you are seeking excuses.

    Tell me the real reason why, be honest and insha'Allah I can try and help you.

    The verse has nothing to do with Jinn posession, the same word "Mass" is used in the story of Ayyub AS, it does NOT mean possession.

    That hadith is evidence is against you, lets bring the full hadith:

    Anas reported that when Allah's Messenger (ï·º) was in the company of one of his wives a person happened to pass by them. He called him and when he came, he said to him:

    0 so and so, she was my such and such wife. Thereupon he said, Allah's Messenger, if I were to doubt at all, I would have entertained no doubt about you at least. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ï·º) said: Verily Satan circulates in the body like blood.


    Were these companions possessed by Jinns? Absolutely not, it was just the Prophet ï·º mentioning the wasawasah of the Shaytaan.

    Anything else?

    Leave a comment:


  • TheHaqq
    replied
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    I noticed something here. You did not affirm to me that you believe in Jinn.
    Does any muslim reject Jinn and Angels?! Have some positive thoughts brother.

    Leave a comment:

Collapse

Edit this module to specify a template to display.

Working...
X