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Is Jinn Posession Real?

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  • #46
    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

    Well I do believe in it myself, and you make assumptions. You think "if 1 and 2 then 3", whereas I think "If 1 and 2 then we have a lot of options".

    I agree with your explanation that many times Mental Ilnesses are the reality and people misconstrue this as Jinn possession. But that is not, rationally speaking, an explanation away of Jinn possession - you have only explained some (or let's just say for sake of argument) most cases.

    Your explanation does not contradict the reality of Jinn possession, it only works with it. And this is the problem with your mindset - quick intuition - quick assumption and quick rejection. Contemplate that Human societies all around the planet mention Jinn/Jinn possession. It is even in the (purported) Bible. Rather than attacking the past learn to respect it and learn from it.

    I think the people on the forum who have experience of this most likely are going to be offended with your rejection - my problem with it is that you rejecting authentic Hadith. You know I read a paper on French Atheism where they mention even Atheists are turning to a non-Theistic spirituality to try explain the supernatural. People who have encountered these things are quick to change their opinions.

    I hope as a rational person you think this through - we know it is Mumkin Aql'an, we know there are many reports of people experiencing it, from all cultures, and we know it is found in Hadith. Nor am I a person who rejects science/the scientific method or empiricism. I am asking you to stop extrapolating the some to the all.

    If you realise the irrationality of this inference, you will have no issue accepting Jinn possession.
    * rejecting authentic Hadith: Should have said verses of the Qur'an as well.
    Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
    "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
    Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

    Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
    1/116

    Comment


    • #47
      I repeat:


      So the mind admits it is possible.

      The eyes have seen it, seen multiple people attest to it and confirmed the truthful reports regarding it.

      The ears have heard it in divine revelation.


      Then why shouldn't the heart accept it too?


      TheHaqq, do you accept Jinn exist?

      What about Jannah, Jahannam?

      How many Jinn have you seen? Did you see Jannah or Jahannam?

      So why exactly do you have one set of principles and then suddenly change them?

      A westerner explains, "Well you know the whole heaven and hell thing can be explained due to X, Y and Z anthropological phenomenon so of course they aren't real"

      Would you accept this line of reasoning?
      Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
      "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
      Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

      Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
      1/116

      Comment


      • #48
        Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
        Well I do believe in it myself, and you make assumptions. You think "if 1 and 2 then 3", whereas I think "If 1 and 2 then we have a lot of options".
        I agree with your explanation that many times Mental Ilnesses are the reality and people misconstrue this as Jinn possession. But that is not, rationally speaking, an explanation away of Jinn possession - you have only explained some (or let's just say for sake of argument) most cases.
        Your explanation does not contradict the reality of Jinn possession, it only works with it. And this is the problem with your mindset - quick intuition - quick assumption and quick rejection. Contemplate that Human societies all around the planet mention Jinn/Jinn possession. It is even in the (purported) Bible. Rather than attacking the past learn to respect it and learn from it.
        I think the people on the forum who have experience of this most likely are going to be offended with your rejection - my problem with it is that you rejecting authentic Hadith. You know I read a paper on French Atheism where they mention even Atheists are turning to a non-Theistic spirituality to try explain the supernatural. People who have encountered these things are quick to change their opinions.
        I hope as a rational person you think this through - we know it is Mumkin Aql'an, we know there are many reports of people experiencing it, from all cultures, and we know it is found in Hadith. Nor am I a person who rejects science/the scientific method or empiricism. I am asking you to stop extrapolating the some to the all.
        If you realise the irrationality of this inference, you will have no issue accepting Jinn possession.
        Let me make it clear, Ruqya DOES work, the Quran heals, it may heal from the whispers of shayateen or from bad mental health.
        But​​​​​​​ to say Ruqya actually removes a jinn from the body that it has taken control over is something else.

        I don't disagree with you at all, but you are still missing my main point.

        I don't disagree with things that are rationally possible and have clear evidence to support them, why would I? for example miracles, anyone that tries to deny that Musa AS splitting the sea is a supernatural miracle is just playing mental gymnastics.

        The problem with Jinn possession is that there is no clear evidence to support it, there's a few weak ahadith, and even they do not clearly support what you are saying.

        Comment


        • #49
          Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
          I repeat:


          So the mind admits it is possible.

          The eyes have seen it, seen multiple people attest to it and confirmed the truthful reports regarding it.

          The ears have heard it in divine revelation.

          You need to stop and think about what you are saying here. The eyes have seen things that are abnormal, but why must it be Jinn possession? The ears have heard abnormal things, but why must it be Jinn posession?

          Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan;n12752693

          Then why shouldn't the heart accept it too?

          [USER="155243"
          TheHaqq[/USER], do you accept Jinn exist?

          What about Jannah, Jahannam?

          How many Jinn have you seen? Did you see Jannah or Jahannam?

          So why exactly do you have one set of principles and then suddenly change them?

          A westerner explains, "Well you know the whole heaven and hell thing can be explained due to X, Y and Z anthropological phenomenon so of course they aren't real"

          Would you accept this line of reasoning?
          I have not changed my principles at all, I believe the Quran and authentic Sunnah to be the truth, I believe in the unseen and afterlife, Jinn possession has no clear evidence so I don't believe in it.

          Comment


          • #50
            Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

            * rejecting authentic Hadith: Should have said verses of the Qur'an as well.
            Go ahead, let's see there "clear evidences"

            Comment


            • #51
              Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

              Let me make it clear, Ruqya DOES work, the Quran heals, it may heal from the whispers of shayateen or from bad mental health.
              But​​​​​​​ to say Ruqya actually removes a jinn from the body that it has taken control over is something else.

              I don't disagree with you at all, but you are still missing my main point.

              I don't disagree with things that are rationally possible and have clear evidence to support them, why would I? for example miracles, anyone that tries to deny that Musa AS splitting the sea is a supernatural miracle is just playing mental gymnastics.

              The problem with Jinn possession is that there is no clear evidence to support it, there's a few weak ahadith, and even they do not clearly support what you are saying.
              Those who consume interest cannot stand [on the Day of Resurrection] except as one stands who is being beaten by Satan into insanity. That is because they say, "Trade is [just] like interest." But Allah has permitted trade and has forbidden interest. So whoever has received an admonition from his Lord and desists may have what is past, and his affair rests with Allah. But whoever returns to [dealing in interest or usury] - those are the companions of the Fire; they will abide eternally therein.

              (Sahih International's Interpretation of al-Qur'an, Surah al-Baqarah, Ayah 275)
              Anas ibn Malik reported:

              The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Verily, Satan flows through the human being like the flowing of blood.”

              - Sahih Muslim 2174
              Qur'an and Sunnah.

              I can tell that this isn't the reason you reject it - you are seeking excuses.

              Tell me the real reason why, be honest and insha'Allah I can try and help you.
              Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
              "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
              Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

              Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
              1/116

              Comment


              • #52
                insha'Allah I can try and help you.
                Actually, Insha'Allah I will help you. Allah's Mashee'ah is absolute.
                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                1/116

                Comment


                • #53
                  Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post


                  You need to stop and think about what you are saying here. The eyes have seen things that are abnormal, but why must it be Jinn possession? The ears have heard abnormal things, but why must it be Jinn posession?



                  I have not changed my principles at all, I believe the Quran and authentic Sunnah to be the truth, I believe in the unseen and afterlife, Jinn possession has no clear evidence so I don't believe in it.
                  I noticed something here. You did not affirm to me that you believe in Jinn.
                  Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                  "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                  Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                  Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                  1/116

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                    I noticed something here. You did not affirm to me that you believe in Jinn.
                    Does any muslim reject Jinn and Angels?! Have some positive thoughts brother.

                    Comment


                    • #55
                      Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                      Qur'an and Sunnah.

                      I can tell that this isn't the reason you reject it - you are seeking excuses.

                      Tell me the real reason why, be honest and insha'Allah I can try and help you.

                      The verse has nothing to do with Jinn posession, the same word "Mass" is used in the story of Ayyub AS, it does NOT mean possession.

                      That hadith is evidence is against you, lets bring the full hadith:

                      Anas reported that when Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) was in the company of one of his wives a person happened to pass by them. He called him and when he came, he said to him:

                      0 so and so, she was my such and such wife. Thereupon he said, Allah's Messenger, if I were to doubt at all, I would have entertained no doubt about you at least. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said: Verily Satan circulates in the body like blood.


                      Were these companions possessed by Jinns? Absolutely not, it was just the Prophet mentioning the wasawasah of the Shaytaan.

                      Anything else?

                      Comment


                      • #56
                        Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                        Does any muslim reject Jinn and Angels?! Have some positive thoughts brother.
                        Just checking.
                        Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                        "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                        Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                        Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                        1/116

                        Comment


                        • #57
                          Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post


                          The verse has nothing to do with Jinn posession, the same word "Mass" is used in the story of Ayyub AS, it does NOT mean possession.

                          That hadith is evidence is against you, lets bring the full hadith:



                          Were these companions possessed by Jinns? Absolutely not, it was just the Prophet mentioning the wasawasah of the Shaytaan.

                          Anything else?
                          By principles of Hadith, all authentic riwayat of Hadith are accepted unless there is reason to perform Tarjih - you performed Tarjih' with no reason. So the Hadith is still against you.

                          (If you do not understand why this is let me explain - you are saying the first Hadith is an incomplete version of the second, accusing the narrators of the first of forgetting. This is logically equivalent to the claim that the narrators of the first reported correctly and a Ziyadah is from the second. This is why we don't do Tarjih' arbitrarily. I can quote the Muqaddimah of Imam an-Nawawi upon Sahih Muslim on this if you think I am making this up.)

                          On the verse of the Qur'an you performed simple contradiction without giving evidence or any reasoning etc. so your point is rejected.

                          Now tell me, what exactly is it really that bothers you about these?
                          Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                          "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                          Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                          Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                          1/116

                          Comment


                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                            By principles of Hadith, all authentic riwayat of Hadith are accepted unless there is reason to perform Tarjih - you performed Tarjih' with no reason. So the Hadith is still against you.

                            (If you do not understand why this is let me explain - you are saying the first Hadith is an incomplete version of the second, accusing the narrators of the first of forgetting. This is logically equivalent to the claim that the narrators of the first reported correctly and a Ziyadah is from the second. This is why we don't do Tarjih' arbitrarily. I can quote the Muqaddimah of Imam an-Nawawi upon Sahih Muslim on this if you think I am making this up.)

                            On the verse of the Qur'an you performed simple contradiction without giving evidence or any reasoning etc. so your point is rejected.

                            Now tell me, what exactly is it really that bothers you about these?
                            Even the second part of the hadith does not prove what you are saying. Shaytan running through my veins does not mean he has control over me, how you add words to these narrations really does amaze me.

                            You did exactly the same thing with the verse, prove to me that it means possess.

                            What bothers and amazes me is that there is no evidence for Jinn possession, even though it is very serious (apparently), yet many scholars believed in it. As someone who thinks and does not blindly follow, I just cannot accept it, may Allah reward you for your efforts but the evidence takes precedence according to my principles.

                            Comment


                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                              By principles of Hadith, all authentic riwayat of Hadith are accepted unless there is reason to perform Tarjih - you performed Tarjih' with no reason. So the Hadith is still against you.

                              (If you do not understand why this is let me explain - you are saying the first Hadith is an incomplete version of the second, accusing the narrators of the first of forgetting. This is logically equivalent to the claim that the narrators of the first reported correctly and a Ziyadah is from the second. This is why we don't do Tarjih' arbitrarily. I can quote the Muqaddimah of Imam an-Nawawi upon Sahih Muslim on this if you think I am making this up.)

                              On the verse of the Qur'an you performed simple contradiction without giving evidence or any reasoning etc. so your point is rejected.

                              Now tell me, what exactly is it really that bothers you about these?
                              * Muqaddimah upon his Sharh of Sahih Muslim (Introduction to his commentary). Type things fast and you leave important details out.
                              Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                              "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                              Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                              Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                              1/116

                              Comment


                              • #60
                                Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                                Just checking.
                                Allah says that the Jinn exist and whisper evil, this is clear cut evidence, how you compare this to possession is quite amazing if I'm being honest.

                                Comment

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