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Is Jinn Posession Real?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by ameera_ali View Post
    Why is this top priority to find out. There are more important issues to focus on. It's like gossiping about which last person took off their hijab or niqab.
    Well, it's created a culture of blaming all our problems on the jinn, even though there's no evidence to support it.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
      I would want to know the real reason behind why someone is unwilling to believe this, I would suspect that such a person also has issues with Sihr being done on RasulAllah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam, black dog shayatin etc.
      Although there were a few scholars who doubted whether Jinn could possess people (arguing it is a mental condition etc.), nevertheless it is an empirical reality that many people observe, and the majority of scholars of Ahlus Sunnah and even the Ahlul Biddah1 agreed that it has a reality. From a rational point of view, we know it is possible and we empirically observe it and it has been well documented in literature, I do not see a reason for doubting it then. Then we do have some scriptural evidence - so the three sources of knowledge (Aql, Adi, Naql) suggest it is possible and then suggest there is a reality to this.
      So I would want to know why a person has a "default doubt" against this or any other plausible supernatural phenomenon. Is it because they think it is caused by a mental illness? Some of the Raaqis have said that the person who has it will be effected by the Ruqya and will not be effected if unbeknownst to the person receiving the treatment, the Raaqi changes what is recited - suggesting that it is not simply a mental illness.
      Of course people who have seen this first hand and have even seen these people do very strange things, would strongly contest that it is simply mental, and most trained Raaqis do get people to go through the process to check there is nothing wrong with them mentally/psychologically. Many people who complain of these conditions do indeed suffer from mental health issues, but there is a notable group who don't.
      Really this makes me wonder what kind of epistomology some people are using to verify facts and beliefs. One should also not confuse the power of Shaytan (Iblis) being limited to Waswasa with the power of the evil Jinn (Shayatin) being limited in that way. Overall I find the scriptural proofs compelling and trust the empirical source relaying such a belief.
      Some people rather than denying these things take it to the other extreme and start worrying about this and becoming afraid of the Jinn.
      Of course people of firm Iman and a high level of Taqwa do not fear the Jinn possessing people as they know all things are in Yad Allah, and nothing whatsoever can oppose Allah's command and decree.
      Allah is the sole cause of all things, so rely on Him alone and you will not need a Raaqi. Fear Him who has absolute power over all things and who has pre-destined what he chose of all that is to be in the creation, and do not fear a bunch of powerless, disbelieving Jinn.
      They can not even move or exist for a fragment of a second unless he has so willed.
      Exalted is Allah over all things.

      Notes:
      1. If you want to have a laugh you can take a look at what the Shia are saying on this topic. It seems they are less interested in whether the Jinn can possess someone and are more interested in whether they can reproduce with them!
      Sihr and Jinn posession are somewhat linked together, there's a much bigger ikhtilaaf on what Sihr actually is, and many great scholars said that sihr is just deception.

      The reason I don't believe in Jinn posession is because of the lack of evidence, often the verse about riba is used as evidence, but the same word (mass) is used in the story of Ayyub AS, and we know very well a jinn did not posess him, rather the shaytaan try to make him doubt Allah (paraphased).

      So the main evidence used isn't even an evidence. This has created a culture where people just blame their problems on the jinn, never do we read that the sahabah or tabieen blamed the jinn, only the weak slaves are overwhelmed by the whispers of shaytaan, the jinn cannot control anyone, they have no authority to do so.




      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

        So what's the clear evidence? Something so serious should have multiple evidences with no ambiguity to warn us from it. That sounds like a very bad case, yet the prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم didn't tell us that it could happen? On the contrary, he told us that the jinn whisper (numerous ahadith), and that the shayateen jinns run through the son of adams veins.

        As for the person you mentioned, there could be many explanations for it, why must it be the jinn taking over her in the sense that she literally has no control.
        What are some of the explanations you're thinking of, I'm really interested in hearing them? Have you ever witnessed someone being possessed?

        Comment


        • #19
          Originally posted by TazkiyyatunNafs View Post

          What are some of the explanations you're thinking of, I'm really interested in hearing them? Have you ever witnessed someone being possessed?
          Well, she could just very well have a strange illness, if epilepsy has a natural cause and can be managed through medication, then any illness less than it would also have a cure/can be managed through medication. Imam Ibn Hazm said that the Jinn talking in a possessed body is not real and is nothing but a superstition, he was of the view that Jinn can only cause pain and disease in a body.

          It could also be the Wasawah of the Shaytaan overwhelming her to the point that it has destroyed her health and has caused her to store negative energy in her body, the Ruqya then heals her and allows her to release this energy in the ways that is witnessed by peope.

          You ask, have I witnessed someone be possessed? Yes, I've seen people who claim to be possessed/had black magic done on them, but it just sounds like they are blaming their problems that they cannot solve (things going bad/health) on the Jinn.

          Hatim Al Awni admits that there is no evidence for and against jinn posession:
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aM14xiEyis

          Well there is evidence against it, Allah tells us to seek refuge from the whispers of the Shaytaan, to be aware of the footsteps of the Shaytaan and that he has no authority except to call us to evil.

          Comment


          • #20
            TheHaqq find a local raqi, make friendship and spend time with them, like they say seeing is believing

            i wont lie when i first saw someone who was possessed it effected me psychologically because it was something i wasnt prepared for and it was out the norm

            it did scared me at the time but that was due to my lack of understanding of the subject and lack of knowledge

            doesnt scare me at all now, you become a bit more used to it

            yes of course theres mental illnesses and general illnesses and alot of peeps blame jinn/sihr/ayn on everything but thats just the mentality of some peeps

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post
              TheHaqq find a local raqi, make friendship and spend time with them, like they say seeing is believing

              i wont lie when i first saw someone who was possessed it effected me psychologically because it was something i wasnt prepared for and it was out the norm

              it did scared me at the time but that was due to my lack of understanding of the subject and lack of knowledge

              doesnt scare me at all now, you become a bit more used to it

              yes of course theres mental illnesses and general illnesses and alot of peeps blame jinn/sihr/ayn on everything but thats just the mentality of some peeps
              But that's the thing, that would mean I'm letting my emotions get in the way of the text, I have heard of some very bad cases, don't get me wrong.

              It's not an important issue tbh, after doing some research, scholars generally didn't use denial of Jinn possession as an argument to call someone misguided.


              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                Sihr and Jinn posession are somewhat linked together, there's a much bigger ikhtilaaf on what Sihr actually is, and many great scholars said that sihr is just deception.

                The reason I don't believe in Jinn posession is because of the lack of evidence, often the verse about riba is used as evidence, but the same word (mass) is used in the story of Ayyub AS, and we know very well a jinn did not posess him, rather the shaytaan try to make him doubt Allah (paraphased).

                So the main evidence used isn't even an evidence. This has created a culture where people just blame their problems on the jinn, never do we read that the sahabah or tabieen blamed the jinn, only the weak slaves are overwhelmed by the whispers of shaytaan, the jinn cannot control anyone, they have no authority to do so.
                Whilst I agree that many people exaggerate on this issue of Jinn possession, nevertheless I would say it has a reality to it and it as a phenomenon is a rational possibility that has empirical and scriptural evidence. Respectfully my brother, I have doubt that you are actually using scripture and the interpretations of the Ulama to arrive at your views on this and by Allah's will I correctly guessed that you have a problem with Sihr too.

                and they followed what the devils read1during the reign of Solomon. But never did Solomon deny2; rather it was the Satans who denied, teaching people sorcery and what was sent down in Babylon to the two angels Harut and Marut. And they do not teach anybody until they say, “We are but a means of trial, so do not deny(faith) .” Even so, they learn from them the means to cause separation between a man and his spouse—but never could they harm anyone except by Allah’s leave. And they learn what would harm them and not benefit them. Yet they did know that whoever purchased it3would have no share in the Hereafter. So indeed, how miserable is what they sold themselves for, if they only knew!

                (Fadil Solimani's Interpretation of al-Qur'an, Surah al-Baqarah, Ayah 102)
                Narrated `Aisha:

                The Prophet (ﷺ) continued for such-and-such period imagining that he has slept (had sexual relations) with his wives, and in fact he did not. One day he said, to me, "O `Aisha! Allah has instructed me regarding a matter about which I had asked Him. There came to me two men, one of them sat near my feet and the other near my head. The one near my feet, asked the one near my head (pointing at me), 'What is wrong with this man? The latter replied, 'He is under the effect of magic.' The first one asked, 'Who had worked magic on him?' The other replied, 'Lubaid bin Asam.' The first one asked, 'What material (did he use)?' The other replied, 'The skin of the pollen of a male date tree with a comb and the hair stuck to it, kept under a stone in the well of Dharwan."' Then the Prophet (ﷺ) went to that well and said, "This is the same well which was shown to me in the dream. The tops of its date-palm trees look like the heads of the devils, and its water looks like the Henna infusion." Then the Prophet (ﷺ) ordered that those things be taken out. I said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! Won't you disclose (the magic object)?" The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "Allah has cured me and I hate to circulate the evil among the people." `Aisha added, "(The magician) Lubaid bin Asam was a man from Bani Zuraiq, an ally of the Jews."

                - Sahih al-Bukhari 6063 (Darussalam)
                Now name the Ulama who support you in your view that Sihr is mere deception.

                Be careful not to quote Mu'tazila and Modernists. I would prefer if you gave quotes or at least references to back up your claims.

                Rationalism is not Intuition. I would also like you to answer my question - is Allah causing Sihr and Jinn possession rationally impossible (Muhal)?
                Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                1/116

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post
                  But that's the thing, that would mean I'm letting my emotions get in the way of the text, I have heard of some very bad cases, don't get me wrong.

                  It's not an important issue tbh, after doing some research, scholars generally didn't use denial of Jinn possession as an argument to call someone misguided.

                  honestly just find your local raqi and ask them straight up can i spend time with you, just a few ruqyah sessions here and there and in sha Allah Allah swt will make it clear for you

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Simply_Logical View Post

                    honestly just find your local raqi and ask them straight up can i spend time with you, just a few ruqyah sessions here and there and in sha Allah Allah swt will make it clear for you
                    Lol

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                      Whilst I agree that many people exaggerate on this issue of Jinn possession, nevertheless I would say it has a reality to it and it as a phenomenon is a rational possibility that has empirical and scriptural evidence. Respectfully my brother, I have doubt that you are actually using scripture and the interpretations of the Ulama to arrive at your views on this and by Allah's will I correctly guessed that you have a problem with Sihr too.
                      The reason I am not following the mainstream view is because of the lack of evidence, I am aware that the vast majority of ahlusunnah scholars affirmed a reality of sihr (though their definition varied a lot), if you want to use that alone as an argument against me then that's fine, I'm already aware of that.

                      One of the strongest arguments is the story of the Magicians of Pharaoh. Allah says they brought a mighty/great sihr.......now what was this sihr that the greatest magicians from the cities brought in order to reject the message of Musa AS? It was nothing but mere deception, and we know this because only the Staff of Musa AS actually turned into a snake, this is why the magicians fell in prostration, they knew that their magic is not real.

                      Now you would say that you agree, their magic was deception, but that does not mean that there is no such thing as real magic that can actually change the reality of things and can cause harm.

                      My response is that this is an evidence against you, this was a major event in history, the very best and most learned magicians from the cities around were called, they were extremely confident and believed that they could easily defeat Musa AS.......yet all they could do was deceive the eyes of the people (various explanations of how they did this). So how can can you say that the less learned magicians after them can actually cause direct harm to someone who far away or can actually change the form of something? This makes no sense at all when looking at the evidences as a whole, there can be no magic greater than the magic done by the magicians of the Pharaoh.

                      Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post

                      Now name the Ulama who support you in your view that Sihr is mere deception.

                      Be careful not to quote Mu'tazila and Modernists. I would prefer if you gave quotes or at least references to back up your claims.

                      Rationalism is not Intuition. I would also like you to answer my question - is Allah causing Sihr and Jinn possession rationally impossible (Muhal)?
                      I do believe in Jinn posession and Sihr, but I know what you mean, to answer your question, No........Allah could allow these things to happen, but the evidence suggests that these things do not happen.

                      There's statements from a few scholars stating that it is just deception, but after searching, none of them went into detail and it's hard to even find much about it. Anyway, this is close to what I follow, the view of Ibn Ashur:

                      وأصول السحر ثلاثة : الأول زجر النفوس بمقدمات توهيمية وإرهابية بما يعتاده الساحر من التأثير النفساني في نفسه ومن الضعف في نفس المسحور ومن سوابق شاهدها المسحور واعتقدها فإذا توجه إليه الساحر سخر له وإلى هذا الأصل الإشارة بقوله تعالى في ذكر سحرة فرعون سحروا أعين الناس واسترهبوهم .

                      الثاني استخدام مؤثرات من خصائص الأجسام من الحيوان والمعدن وهذا يرجع إلى خصائص طبيعية كخاصية الزئبق ومن ذلك العقاقير المؤثرة في العقول صلاحا أو فسادا والمفترة للعزائم والمخدرات والمرقدات على تفاوت تأثيرها وإلى هذا الإشارة بقوله تعالى في سحرة فرعون إنما صنعوا كيد ساحر .

                      الثالث : الشعوذة واستخدام خفايا الحركة والسرعة والتموج حتى يخيل الجماد متحركا وإليه الإشارة بقوله تعالى يخيل إليه من سحرهم أنها تسعى .

                      هذه أصول السحر بالاستقراء وقد قسمها الفخر في التفسير إلى ثمانية أقسام لا تعدو هذه الأصول الثلاثة وفي بعضها تداخل . ولعلماء الإفرنج تقسيم آخر ليس فيه كبير جدوى .

                      وهذه الأصول الثلاثة كلها أعمال مباشرة للمسحور ومتصلة به ولها تأثير عليه بمقدار قابلية نفسه الضعيفة وهو لا يتفطن لها ، ومجموعها هو الذي أشارت إليه الآية ، وهو الذي لا خلاف في إثباته على الجملة دون تفصيل ، وما عداها من الأوهام والمزاعم هو شيء لا أثر له وذلك كل عمل لا مباشرة له بذات من يراد سحره ويكون غائبا عنه فيدعي أنه يؤثر فيه ، وهذا مثل رسم أشكال يعبر عنها بالطلاسم ، أو عقد خيوط والنفث عليها برقيات معينة تتضمن الاستنجاد بالكواكب أو بأسماء الشياطين والجن وآلهة الأقدمين ، وكذا كتابة اسم المسحور في أشكال . أو وضع صورته أو بعض ثيابه وعلائقه وتوجيه كلام إليها بزعم أنه يؤثر ذلك في حقيقة ذات المسحور ، أو يستعملون إشارات خاصة نحو جهته أو نحو بلده وهو ما يسمونه بالأرصاد وذكر أبو بكر بن العربي في القبس أن قريشا لما أشار النبيء - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بأصبعه في التشهد قالوا : هذا محمد يسحر الناس ، أو جمع أجزاء معينة وضم بعضها إلى بعض مع نية أن ذلك الرسم أو الجمع لتأثير شخص معين بضر أو خير أو محبة أو بغضة [ ص: 634 ] أو مرض أو سلامة ، ولا سيما إذا قرن باسم المسحور وصورته أو بطالع ميلاده ، فذلك كله من التوهمات وليس على تأثيرها دليل من العقل ولا من الطبع ولا ما يثبته من الشرع ، وقد انحصرت أدلة إثبات الحقائق في هذه الأدلة ، ومن العجائب أن الفخر في التفسير حاول إثباته بما ليس بمقنع .وأصول السحر ثلاثة : الأول زجر النفوس بمقدمات توهيمية وإرهابية بما يعتاده الساحر من التأثير النفساني في نفسه ومن الضعف في نفس المسحور ومن سوابق شاهدها المسحور واعتقدها فإذا توجه إليه الساحر سخر له وإلى هذا الأصل الإشارة بقوله تعالى في ذكر سحرة فرعون سحروا أعين الناس واسترهبوهم .

                      الثاني استخدام مؤثرات من خصائص الأجسام من الحيوان والمعدن وهذا يرجع إلى خصائص طبيعية كخاصية الزئبق ومن ذلك العقاقير المؤثرة في العقول صلاحا أو فسادا والمفترة للعزائم والمخدرات والمرقدات على تفاوت تأثيرها وإلى هذا الإشارة بقوله تعالى في سحرة فرعون إنما صنعوا كيد ساحر .

                      الثالث : الشعوذة واستخدام خفايا الحركة والسرعة والتموج حتى يخيل الجماد متحركا وإليه الإشارة بقوله تعالى يخيل إليه من سحرهم أنها تسعى .

                      هذه أصول السحر بالاستقراء وقد قسمها الفخر في التفسير إلى ثمانية أقسام لا تعدو هذه الأصول الثلاثة وفي بعضها تداخل . ولعلماء الإفرنج تقسيم آخر ليس فيه كبير جدوى .

                      وهذه الأصول الثلاثة كلها أعمال مباشرة للمسحور ومتصلة به ولها تأثير عليه بمقدار قابلية نفسه الضعيفة وهو لا يتفطن لها ، ومجموعها هو الذي أشارت إليه الآية ، وهو الذي لا خلاف في إثباته على الجملة دون تفصيل ، وما عداها من الأوهام والمزاعم هو شيء لا أثر له وذلك كل عمل لا مباشرة له بذات من يراد سحره ويكون غائبا عنه فيدعي أنه يؤثر فيه ، وهذا مثل رسم أشكال يعبر عنها بالطلاسم ، أو عقد خيوط والنفث عليها برقيات معينة تتضمن الاستنجاد بالكواكب أو بأسماء الشياطين والجن وآلهة الأقدمين ، وكذا كتابة اسم المسحور في أشكال . أو وضع صورته أو بعض ثيابه وعلائقه وتوجيه كلام إليها بزعم أنه يؤثر ذلك في حقيقة ذات المسحور ، أو يستعملون إشارات خاصة نحو جهته أو نحو بلده وهو ما يسمونه بالأرصاد وذكر أبو بكر بن العربي في القبس أن قريشا لما أشار النبيء - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بأصبعه في التشهد قالوا : هذا محمد يسحر الناس ، أو جمع أجزاء معينة وضم بعضها إلى بعض مع نية أن ذلك الرسم أو الجمع لتأثير شخص معين بضر أو خير أو محبة أو بغضة [ ص: 634 ] أو مرض أو سلامة ، ولا سيما إذا قرن باسم المسحور وصورته أو بطالع ميلاده ، فذلك كله من التوهمات وليس على تأثيرها دليل من العقل ولا من الطبع ولا ما يثبته من الشرع ، وقد انحصرت أدلة إثبات الحقائق في هذه الأدلة ، ومن العجائب أن الفخر في التفسير حاول إثباته بما ليس بمقنع .

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        AOA -- I am victim of 7 different jinn possession in my body -- first through sihr/black magic through food followed by jinn possesion. Jinn possession is real and i face lot of difficulties everyday

                        Epilepsy,
                        mental illness
                        suicidal thoughts
                        movements in my body
                        bad dreams
                        hallucinations
                        and so forth.

                        Ruqya/Quranic recitation was done on me for 3 hrs and multiple jinns spoke -- one is female jinni / snake sent from India. Goal is to destroy me completely and i am very close to destruction.

                        Please make Dua and I would like proof, i can send you some pictures or video of when jinn take control of me...

                        JazakALLAH
                        Last edited by Abu 'Abdullaah; 02-12-20, 08:46 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Adnan1236 View Post
                          AOA -- I am victim of 7 different jinn possession in my body -- first through sihr/black magic through food followed by jinn possesion. Jinn possession is real and i face lot of difficulties everyday

                          Epilepsy,
                          mental illness
                          suicidal thoughts
                          movements in my body
                          bad dreams
                          hallucinations
                          and so forth.

                          Ruqya/Quranic recitation was done on me for 3 hrs and multiple jinns spoke -- one is female jinni / snake sent from India. Goal is to destroy me completely and i am very close to destruction.

                          Please make Dua and I would like proof, i can send you some pictures or video of when jinn take control of me...

                          JazakALLAH
                          How would we know you're not acting?

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by TheHaqq View Post

                            The reason I am not following the mainstream view is because of the lack of evidence, I am aware that the vast majority of ahlusunnah scholars affirmed a reality of sihr (though their definition varied a lot), if you want to use that alone as an argument against me then that's fine, I'm already aware of that.

                            One of the strongest arguments is the story of the Magicians of Pharaoh. Allah says they brought a mighty/great sihr.......now what was this sihr that the greatest magicians from the cities brought in order to reject the message of Musa AS? It was nothing but mere deception, and we know this because only the Staff of Musa AS actually turned into a snake, this is why the magicians fell in prostration, they knew that their magic is not real.

                            Now you would say that you agree, their magic was deception, but that does not mean that there is no such thing as real magic that can actually change the reality of things and can cause harm.

                            My response is that this is an evidence against you, this was a major event in history, the very best and most learned magicians from the cities around were called, they were extremely confident and believed that they could easily defeat Musa AS.......yet all they could do was deceive the eyes of the people (various explanations of how they did this). So how can can you say that the less learned magicians after them can actually cause direct harm to someone who far away or can actually change the form of something? This makes no sense at all when looking at the evidences as a whole, there can be no magic greater than the magic done by the magicians of the Pharaoh.



                            I do believe in Jinn posession and Sihr, but I know what you mean, to answer your question, No........Allah could allow these things to happen, but the evidence suggests that these things do not happen.

                            There's statements from a few scholars stating that it is just deception, but after searching, none of them went into detail and it's hard to even find much about it. Anyway, this is close to what I follow, the view of Ibn Ashur:

                            وأصول السحر ثلاثة : الأول زجر النفوس بمقدمات توهيمية وإرهابية بما يعتاده الساحر من التأثير النفساني في نفسه ومن الضعف في نفس المسحور ومن سوابق شاهدها المسحور واعتقدها فإذا توجه إليه الساحر سخر له وإلى هذا الأصل الإشارة بقوله تعالى في ذكر سحرة فرعون سحروا أعين الناس واسترهبوهم .

                            الثاني استخدام مؤثرات من خصائص الأجسام من الحيوان والمعدن وهذا يرجع إلى خصائص طبيعية كخاصية الزئبق ومن ذلك العقاقير المؤثرة في العقول صلاحا أو فسادا والمفترة للعزائم والمخدرات والمرقدات على تفاوت تأثيرها وإلى هذا الإشارة بقوله تعالى في سحرة فرعون إنما صنعوا كيد ساحر .

                            الثالث : الشعوذة واستخدام خفايا الحركة والسرعة والتموج حتى يخيل الجماد متحركا وإليه الإشارة بقوله تعالى يخيل إليه من سحرهم أنها تسعى .

                            هذه أصول السحر بالاستقراء وقد قسمها الفخر في التفسير إلى ثمانية أقسام لا تعدو هذه الأصول الثلاثة وفي بعضها تداخل . ولعلماء الإفرنج تقسيم آخر ليس فيه كبير جدوى .

                            وهذه الأصول الثلاثة كلها أعمال مباشرة للمسحور ومتصلة به ولها تأثير عليه بمقدار قابلية نفسه الضعيفة وهو لا يتفطن لها ، ومجموعها هو الذي أشارت إليه الآية ، وهو الذي لا خلاف في إثباته على الجملة دون تفصيل ، وما عداها من الأوهام والمزاعم هو شيء لا أثر له وذلك كل عمل لا مباشرة له بذات من يراد سحره ويكون غائبا عنه فيدعي أنه يؤثر فيه ، وهذا مثل رسم أشكال يعبر عنها بالطلاسم ، أو عقد خيوط والنفث عليها برقيات معينة تتضمن الاستنجاد بالكواكب أو بأسماء الشياطين والجن وآلهة الأقدمين ، وكذا كتابة اسم المسحور في أشكال . أو وضع صورته أو بعض ثيابه وعلائقه وتوجيه كلام إليها بزعم أنه يؤثر ذلك في حقيقة ذات المسحور ، أو يستعملون إشارات خاصة نحو جهته أو نحو بلده وهو ما يسمونه بالأرصاد وذكر أبو بكر بن العربي في القبس أن قريشا لما أشار النبيء - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بأصبعه في التشهد قالوا : هذا محمد يسحر الناس ، أو جمع أجزاء معينة وضم بعضها إلى بعض مع نية أن ذلك الرسم أو الجمع لتأثير شخص معين بضر أو خير أو محبة أو بغضة [ ص: 634 ] أو مرض أو سلامة ، ولا سيما إذا قرن باسم المسحور وصورته أو بطالع ميلاده ، فذلك كله من التوهمات وليس على تأثيرها دليل من العقل ولا من الطبع ولا ما يثبته من الشرع ، وقد انحصرت أدلة إثبات الحقائق في هذه الأدلة ، ومن العجائب أن الفخر في التفسير حاول إثباته بما ليس بمقنع .وأصول السحر ثلاثة : الأول زجر النفوس بمقدمات توهيمية وإرهابية بما يعتاده الساحر من التأثير النفساني في نفسه ومن الضعف في نفس المسحور ومن سوابق شاهدها المسحور واعتقدها فإذا توجه إليه الساحر سخر له وإلى هذا الأصل الإشارة بقوله تعالى في ذكر سحرة فرعون سحروا أعين الناس واسترهبوهم .

                            الثاني استخدام مؤثرات من خصائص الأجسام من الحيوان والمعدن وهذا يرجع إلى خصائص طبيعية كخاصية الزئبق ومن ذلك العقاقير المؤثرة في العقول صلاحا أو فسادا والمفترة للعزائم والمخدرات والمرقدات على تفاوت تأثيرها وإلى هذا الإشارة بقوله تعالى في سحرة فرعون إنما صنعوا كيد ساحر .

                            الثالث : الشعوذة واستخدام خفايا الحركة والسرعة والتموج حتى يخيل الجماد متحركا وإليه الإشارة بقوله تعالى يخيل إليه من سحرهم أنها تسعى .

                            هذه أصول السحر بالاستقراء وقد قسمها الفخر في التفسير إلى ثمانية أقسام لا تعدو هذه الأصول الثلاثة وفي بعضها تداخل . ولعلماء الإفرنج تقسيم آخر ليس فيه كبير جدوى .

                            وهذه الأصول الثلاثة كلها أعمال مباشرة للمسحور ومتصلة به ولها تأثير عليه بمقدار قابلية نفسه الضعيفة وهو لا يتفطن لها ، ومجموعها هو الذي أشارت إليه الآية ، وهو الذي لا خلاف في إثباته على الجملة دون تفصيل ، وما عداها من الأوهام والمزاعم هو شيء لا أثر له وذلك كل عمل لا مباشرة له بذات من يراد سحره ويكون غائبا عنه فيدعي أنه يؤثر فيه ، وهذا مثل رسم أشكال يعبر عنها بالطلاسم ، أو عقد خيوط والنفث عليها برقيات معينة تتضمن الاستنجاد بالكواكب أو بأسماء الشياطين والجن وآلهة الأقدمين ، وكذا كتابة اسم المسحور في أشكال . أو وضع صورته أو بعض ثيابه وعلائقه وتوجيه كلام إليها بزعم أنه يؤثر ذلك في حقيقة ذات المسحور ، أو يستعملون إشارات خاصة نحو جهته أو نحو بلده وهو ما يسمونه بالأرصاد وذكر أبو بكر بن العربي في القبس أن قريشا لما أشار النبيء - صلى الله عليه وسلم - بأصبعه في التشهد قالوا : هذا محمد يسحر الناس ، أو جمع أجزاء معينة وضم بعضها إلى بعض مع نية أن ذلك الرسم أو الجمع لتأثير شخص معين بضر أو خير أو محبة أو بغضة [ ص: 634 ] أو مرض أو سلامة ، ولا سيما إذا قرن باسم المسحور وصورته أو بطالع ميلاده ، فذلك كله من التوهمات وليس على تأثيرها دليل من العقل ولا من الطبع ولا ما يثبته من الشرع ، وقد انحصرت أدلة إثبات الحقائق في هذه الأدلة ، ومن العجائب أن الفخر في التفسير حاول إثباته بما ليس بمقنع .
                            Ok I know I said I'm going on a break, but I have to give a quick response to this.

                            So I did say, "Be careful not to quote Mu'tazila and Modernists."

                            Ibn Ashur is a Modernist who lived and died recently. The likes of Mufti Abu Layth even quote from him. He is in the same camp as Rashid Rida, Abduh and others (the same camp al-Qaradawi the promoter of "Wasitiyyah" is in). I cannot recall but I believe he also questions the Hadith tradition and the descent of Isa Alayhis Salam. His arguments that it is all mere deception, quoting selectively from previous scholars as he may does not explain the case of the Prophet Alayhis Salam being affected by Sihr.

                            So I am afraid my brother that to me you have been unable to quote any classical scholars and have instead quoted a scholar whose arguments explaining it away as mere deception do not account for e.g. the case of RasulAllah Salallahu Alayhi Wa Salam. I can definitely accept that there are some tricksters who make it look like they perform Sihr using deception in the ways he decribed. I can also accept some people have mental health issues.

                            But none of that is able to negate an object reality for Sihr.

                            Comparison with the one who refuses to state there is nothing above or below Allah physically

                            My worry is not getting you to accept the reality of it, it is that you are edging towards Hadith rejection. I mean if you think about it at a deeper level, this is the problem we have with AmantuBillahi on the other thread. He rejects certain Hadith, or explains them away because he struggles to believe something (that Allah is above the creation with an unqualified absolute aboveness - not similar to the "aboveness" of creation, like me being above a chair). Perhaps he reasons that the Sahabah did not ask about or explain such things, so we should ignore the Hadith and neither affirm nor deny.

                            The problem with that is we can apply this logic to anything, including your understanding of Sihr here - we can say the Sahabah never asked RasulAllah Alayhis Salam regarding Sihr, so we can say we stay silent regarding whether it is real or a deception, not objecting to the one who says it is a deception. He says the majority throughout history were wrong, and relies on a minority or misinterpretations of a minority not dissimilar to what you are doing here.

                            Mufti Abu Layth does this a lot, he misquotes and reads in his narrative into the past. Then he argues scholars who were against him were for him. Sometimes he does quote scholars who support his beliefs, but they are later scholars or controversial scholars, he cannot find his position in the majority. Then he reads his opinions into the early scholars arguing Imam al-Sarakhsi.

                            Just as the sound Aql rejects Allah being in a Makan, so to it accepts the plausibility of Sihr. Then the reports in both instances prove our beliefs as well as explicit statements from the Qur'an (e.g. verse saying there is nothing like him and verse talking about magic at the time of Suleiman Alayhis Salam), which they misinterpret, and clear Hadith which a Tawil is made upon.

                            Then they start using other verses of the Qur'an (e.g. talking of the Shaytan merely whispering or the verses establishing Uluww) to try and negate the verses they struggle to accept.

                            Of course I am not saying the two issues are the same, I am saying that this is just the nature of any position adopted because someone cannot understand something.

                            The true reason why you cannot accept Sihr and why AmantuBillahi cannot accept the Fawqiyyah Mutlaq of Allah is similar - both of you do not want to admit you struggle with the reality being discussed - he does not understand how something cannot be in a place and still exist and you do not understand how Sihr can be so true especially in this day and age of science which has made people question superstition (a good thing).

                            I am telling you both I am a rational and scientific person. Please just give up these minority positions (both are wrong, but yes AmantuBillahi's case is worse as it takes him near to Shirk - yours is a case of adopted a very weak position that I can maybe say one or two prominent scholars held in the past - both of you have sects backing you e.g. the Mu'tazilah and Modernists, and the Karramiyyah and pseudo-Salafis). Do not do what Abu Layth does where he even tries to argue that his position used to be the majority and then it changed and people are trying to hide this etc. We need to have a firm and clear epistimology. We need to be fair and realise that individual scholars can be wrong. We need to be confident of the Hadith tradition.

                            Ok comparison over.

                            Here, watch this.

                            I agree with the views expressed by the Ash'ari Mutakallim in the below video. He argues for Evolution being compatible with an orthodox reading of the Ayat on Adam. Why do I bring this up? I am doing it to show you the power of traditionalism and embracing mainstream views. Mainstream views are not outdated - we do not need to quote Kant - they are quite potent and can be used to solve modern issues too, without sacrificing tradition, orthodoxy and objectivity.



                            Yes I accept Sihr has a reality and I also have no issues with Evolution.

                            May Allah bless you both. You are both my brothers in Islam regardless of our differences.

                            Now I really will be taking a break!
                            Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                            "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                            Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                            Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                            1/116

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                            • #29
                              One last thing:

                              Amir ul-Muminin Sayyiduna Ali KarramAllahu Wajhah said,
                              "Mahma tasawwarta bi-balik, fallahu bi-khilaf dhalik,"
                              Whatever comes into your mind, Allah is other than that,

                              Al-Aqeedah Imam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Riwayah Abu Bakr al-Khallal),
                              1/116

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Muhammad Hasan View Post
                                One last thing:

                                Not a fan of YQ

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