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Did the verses abt embryology come greek scientists? - does sperm come from the ribs?

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  • Did the verses abt embryology come greek scientists? - does sperm come from the ribs?

    btw I'm also going to answer a few of the less ridiculous claims of some of these spam posts we get:

    1. Is it true that all the verses about embryology in the Qur'an came from doctors that existed before 600AD? e.g. Galen, Hippocrates and a Jewish doctor named Samuel ha-Yehudi who lived 150 AD?

    Originally posted by dhakiyya
    Even if the medical scholars that he mentions in the first point knew *something* of embryology, I sincerely doubt that they knew anything of the first eight weeks in detail enough to come up with those verses (which match with development up to eight weeks gestation which is actually conception to six weeks of life and which you need a microscope to observe) and even if they did know this, when exactly did Prophet Muhammad :saw: get to study galen, hippocrates and this Jewish doctor's writings, seeing as he never went to school or learned to read and write?? :scratch:

    In the book "A brief illustrated guide to understanding Islam" by I.A.Ibrahim, he shows how the stages of the development of the embryo correspond with the descriptions in the Qur'an accurately and in full detail that could not have been known to anyone prior to the invention of the microscope and other modern technology, including how at the very earliest stage the embryo resembles a leech in shape and gets its nutrition from the blood in the lining of the uterus and blood inside it is pooled rather than flowing through vessles, making it resemble a bloodclot in appearance, and is suspended inside the womb - and that the Arabic word "alaaqah" has three possible meanings, "leech" "suspended thing" and "blood clot". It is not possible for Galen or any of the other early scientists to have determined that the embryo at this stage was simeltaneously like a leech, a suspended thing, and a blood clot. Nor did they know Arabic to decide to use the term "alaaqah" to describe it. In addition the same book goes on to describe how the word used to describe the next stage of embryology similarly fits the way the embryo actually is. Also, the stages that the embryo passes through are all very early in development, within the first four weeks after conception. At the time of Galen etc a woman would not have even known she was pregnant at these stages. Also the book says how Professor Emeritus Keith L Moore who is an expert on embryology said of these verses "It is clear to me that these statements must have come to Muhammad from God because almost all of this knowledge was not discovered until centuries later." - the same professor has even said that the stages of embryo development could be named after the terms used in the Qur'an.

    Even more interestingly, this book leaves out the bit in the Qur'an about how the bones grow and flesh "clothes" the bones. At week seven the embryo's bones start to grow and calcify. At week eight, the muscle tissue starts to grow around the bones. The Qur'an states that after this, the soul is blown into the baby. Week eight is when the foetus actually starts to move (because it now has muscles mashaAllah) and also when modern scientists stop calling it an "embryo" and start to call it a "foetus" because it has started to look more human.

    Again, how could the above named doctors have observed all this, and how could Muhammad :saw: who never went to school or learned to read have learned it even if they had done?
    The Qur'an says "man was created from ejected liquid- Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs" the sperm does not come from there! this is contradicted by modern science is it not? (all quotes below are from the same thread, dhakiyya's has been editied since then)

    Again and again people misunderstand this.

    He is created from a spurting fluid, then he emerges from between the backbone and the breastbone.

    The second section refers to the PERSON, not the fluid and obviously denotes the positioning of the fœtus in the mother’s womb (between back and breastbone).

    The rest of the verse goes on to describe how, just as he emerges from the womb, man will emerge from the grave on Allah’s command.
    Originally posted by dhakiyya
    I looked up 86:6-7 according to Muhammad Asad's translation and tafseer, he says this refers to the female anatomy rather than the male, and the classical word for ribs can also refer to the pelvis. His tafseer on this refers to the views of experts in classical arabic. Other translators/tafseer writers consider it the male anatomy, or part of it the verse referring to male and part referring to female. there is nothing whatsoever in the verse that suggests that it comes through the spinal cord, kidneys etc. It suggests the origin is the abdomen within the pelvic girdle, which is where a woman's ovaries and womb are found. The egg is ejected with a drop of liquid (the verse says a drop of ejected liquic) which bursts out of the mature egg follicle on day 14 of the menstrual cycle. The bursting out is sudden and even explosive, some women can even feel that they have just ovulated.
    Originally posted by Ibn Sina
    ... issuing from between the loins [of man] and the pelvic arch [of woman]. [3] (at-Tariq:7)

    A good explanation by M. Asad:
    Note 3 (Quran Ref: 86:7 )
    The plural noun tara'ib, rendered by me as "pelvic arch", has also the meaning of "ribs" or "arch of bones"; according to most of the authorities who have specialized in the etymology of rare Quranic expressions this term relates specifically to female anatomy (Taj al-'Arus).(Quran Ref: 86:7 )
    Originally posted by zaman99<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_2164739", true); </SCRIPT>

    Salam, First I would like to thank the brother/sister who posted this question. The Qur'an is for people who reflects. Questioning it is a means to gain more knowldge and have stronger faith, it does not mean disrespect. Thos who take it by faith may only kiss the book and keep it clean of dust, but those who keep questioning can only increase in knowldge and faith/ Iman.
    concering the verses:
    The verse of the rib actually reads as follows in Arabic [ From between Alsulb and Taraaib]. The two words are difficult to comprehend in Arabic let alone to translate accurately.
    Sulb generally refers to the hip and strong muscles of the back. While taraaib refers to the ribs as far as I know.
    Now, from embryological point of view, the gonads, i.e. testicles in males and ovaries in females differentiate first at the level of the second lumbar vertebra. This is a scientific fact that is not known to most people even today, let alone fourteen centuries ago.
    With the development of the embryo, the gonads follow different developmental stages in both sexes. In girls, the ovaries folow shorter journey, descend gently to hang outside the uterus and stay there all life. In boys the testicles follow longer journey, descend gently towards the scrotum, until they get squeezed through the inguinal canal at the bottom of the belly, in oblique manner and rest inside the scrotum just a few days before birth. It is not unusual that the descending of the testicles inside the scrotum get arrested at earlier stage, which predisposes the boy to testicular cancer around puberty.
    Now if we put this scientific fact which is only known to doctors, in the context of the above verse, we find that the Qur’an is pointing out to the exact location where both the testicles and ovaries are originally developed in the embryo, the future adult human. It is these two organs that later produce the sperms and ovums that create new human.They develop at the level of the second lumber vertebra which is mid way between the Sulb and Taraaib, even though their later positioning in the adult human gives the wrong impression of their embryological origin. This fact could not have been guessed at the time of the Qur’an.

    can someone tell me the precise nature of this "sun tail" question mashaAllah it would be very good to have this reply together with the ribs/backbone reply because they were part of the same post.

    Originally posted by zaman99<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_2164739", true); </SCRIPT>

    Concerning the sun tail…its really amusing to read in English translation.
    Arabic is quite a poetic language. It is full of parables, metaphorical expressions as sign of beauty of expression. A lot of such expressions becomes dull or even misleading when literally translated. The same problem happened in translating the Bible. The difference is that the original Arabic Qur’an is preserved for review of meanings whenever human knowledge evolves.
    In this verse, Zul qarnain is described to have arrived at the location of [sunset]! Such expression in English sounds silly because there is no specific location of sunset on earth! Well, according to the Arabs, the sunset location is the most far point you can reach in the west. For example Morocco in Arabic is called [Almagrib Alaarabi] which literally means: The Arabic sunset! This means that according to the Arabs perception, the land of Morocco is where the sun sets. This does not mean it is a physical sunset, but an artistic one. Also the gulf countries are called collectively [The Arabic sunrise]..meaning most east where the sun rises over the Arabic land first.
    Now, going back to the verse, Zulgarnain is described to have arrived at the sunset location, this simply means he travelled to the most far western point according to his perception.
    The rest of the description in the verse followed the same artistic description using the sun set and rise as an artistic indicator for certain geographical location. It is beautiful in Arabic, but becomes dull and confusing in literal translation, and difficult to translate literally.
    I think if people could not find faults in the Qur’an except those two, then the Qur’an wins the argument of its divine origin.
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    Last edited by dhak1yya; 13-10-07, 09:46 PM. Reason: adding relevent quotes from other posts