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  • AbuMubarak
    started a topic The Female Voice

    The Female Voice

    The female voice, according to Islam, is also included in the category of Satar, i.e. it has to be ‘concealed’ and NOT ‘revealed’. Since the female voice is an entity NOT to be displayed or advertised, it is NOT permissible for males to listen to women singing or even reciting the Quran …

    When necessity demands that they have to speak to males then their speech should not be attractive, gently and alluring like the deliberate ‘lure’ put in speech by ‘trained’ women of the disbelievers. Recognizing the danger of allurement in the female voice, the Quran commands women thus:

    "…then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honorable manner." (Al-Ahzab 33:32)

    Van de Velde in his book Ideal Marriage, states:

    "The tone-color of a voice, and the intonation of single word - and it may be word of no special meaning or association in itself - may excite incredible intensity of desire. The unique and precious significance that a woman’s voice can give to ‘you’ or ‘thou’ can suffice to overwhelm man’s power of endurance and control…"

    Islam has, hence, FORBIDDEN its women to speak in a soft or "sexually" sweet tone. Islam COMMANDS the concealment of the female voice and prohibits its display in public. If anyone is aware of the springs of sex-psychology he will clearly see the justification for Islam’s restriction in this matter.

  • Fais
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Originally posted by Abu Mus'ab View Post
    I know life is harder for women, i never denied that, their lives compared to mens are much harder.

    haj is not obligatory on anyone who cannot afford the cost, and don't quote me on this but i think someone posted a fatwa or something that said women can go as a group for umrah (or haj, i can't remember which), but it's too fuzzy to remember where and when i read it.
    That is the Shafi opinion, Imam Nawawi (Ra) holds that opinion. For Hajj.
    Last edited by Fais; 17-07-08, 09:27 PM.

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  • Abu Mus'ab
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Originally posted by `asiya View Post
    well in some cases yes :jkk: that would be so, but not having a mahram doesnt make it safe, or even permissible for a woman to travel alone without one,where on earth would she need to go to make the haram permissible, when not even haj is obligatory on a woman unless she can fulfill the conditions of cost and having a mahram to get there. no woman needs to travel unless its a necessity like her life is in danger and she needs to make hijrah, or to get necessary medical treatment unavailable in her city.

    a woman cant arrange her own marriage because without a walli, and without a walli marrying her to the man and two witnesses present, her marriage would be invalid so thats something that cant ever be an exception as she cant speak alone with a man about marriage, that is another thing that cannot be made an exception.

    can she take off hijab to get work to pay the bills and eat ? i dont feel that is an option at all no believing woman would be able to walk out on the street showing her awra she would rather be thrown out of her home and sell everything she owned than do that . my point is all of us as an ummah should try and make it easier on each other, the rules dont change in all cases i mentioned, and life is very difficult for the sisters who dont have muslim family or imams and we should all be aware of that and seek to change the practical situations of the muslim women, to assist them, because in the years i have been muslim its not getting any easier for the women.
    I know life is harder for women, i never denied that, their lives compared to mens are much harder.

    haj is not obligatory on anyone who cannot afford the cost, and don't quote me on this but i think someone posted a fatwa or something that said women can go as a group for umrah (or haj, i can't remember which), but it's too fuzzy to remember where and when i read it.

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  • *asiya*
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Originally posted by Abu Mus'ab View Post
    Everything in islam has a rule and an exception to the rule.

    Pig is haraam, that's the blanket rule. If a person is starving and there's nothing but pig then he can eat pig, that's the exception, and some ulama regard it as suicide if he doesn't eat it (because Allah has allowed him to eat it).

    So do you think it's oppressive if a person says eating pig is haraam? because he's making a blanket ruling.

    As myself and countless others have said in the past, when we give a 'ruling' then we give it according to the rule, not the exception, and our rules do not apply to people who are exceptions.

    So a person who doesn't have a mahram can travel without a mahram because she's in the exception group, she shouldn't wait for the fairy grandmother to give her a mahram until midnight.

    The same applies to the other situations as well.
    well in some cases yes :jkk: that would be so, but not having a mahram doesnt make it safe, or even permissible for a woman to travel alone without one,where on earth would she need to go to make the haram permissible, when not even haj is obligatory on a woman unless she can fulfill the conditions of cost and having a mahram to get there. no woman needs to travel unless its a necessity like her life is in danger and she needs to make hijrah, or to get necessary medical treatment unavailable in her city.

    a woman cant arrange her own marriage because without a walli, and without a walli marrying her to the man and two witnesses present, her marriage would be invalid so thats something that cant ever be an exception as she cant speak alone with a man about marriage, that is another thing that cannot be made an exception.

    can she take off hijab to get work to pay the bills and eat ? i dont feel that is an option at all no believing woman would be able to walk out on the street showing her awra she would rather be thrown out of her home and sell everything she owned than do that . my point is all of us as an ummah should try and make it easier on each other, the rules dont change in all cases i mentioned, and life is very difficult for the sisters who dont have muslim family or imams and we should all be aware of that and seek to change the practical situations of the muslim women, to assist them, because in the years i have been muslim its not getting any easier for the women.
    Last edited by *asiya*; 17-07-08, 08:53 PM.

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  • Fais
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Originally posted by Abu Mus'ab View Post
    You mean to tell me this is the first time you ever see an old post of his? :eek3:
    That type of post .. yes ... lol.

    He seemed nice when i spoke to him though lol, Mashallah ...

    Leave a comment:


  • Abu Mus'ab
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Originally posted by `asiya View Post
    i wasnt referring to the paltalk issue i already made it clear i dont have any desire to speak on paltalk in front of brothers i dont see the point or benefit in it in fact i dont even like to type too much in there if i go to a class, except for replying salam.

    i was just bringing up the issue in general abu mubarak raised about the sisters having it much tougher than brothers in so many regards when they are not supported. Islam is a system a way of life that means every member of the ummah has to play a role in that, in order to help the sisters adhere to islamic rulings there has to be a support system for the sisters if they dont have that through an imam or muslim family, other muslim sisters, muslim husbands, fathers, brothers etc. then life becomes extremely difficult in so many regards, brothers dont have to ask themselves the question before they open the front door, am i leaving my house out of necessity ? am i properly covered ? will i be able to make it back before it gets dark? will i have to walk in a deserted place to get where i need to go ? how will i feed my children, pay the bills, how will i get some money this week when i cant remove my hijab to get a job ? they dont have to ask themselves how will i get married ? and how can i find a trustworthy brother to sincerely look after my interests in finding a husband ? they dont need a walli, men dont need a mahram to travel, men can go to the masjid for salat and meet other brothers, they can even work amongst kaffir women as it is considered a necessity for a man to work but it is not for a woman as a man is supposed to be supporting her , men dont have to consider everytime they open their mouths is this a necessity for me to speak.. women have a totally different life to men in Islam, and without the support of brothers as abu mubarak said we can start opressing sisters if we dont take into consideration the islamic rulings that apply only to women and start making blanket rulings upon all women who are actually in all sorts of totally different situations.Islam is a perfect way of life but it will only work perfectly when all of the ummah regardless of race age status or gender, is included by all of the muslims.

    what i have found is that so many muslims from muslim families live in a cocooned world where most things are in all place for them, but they forget that so many women dont have the same luxuries as the born muslims sisters and mothers do.
    Everything in islam has a rule and an exception to the rule.

    Pig is haraam, that's the blanket rule. If a person is starving and there's nothing but pig then he can eat pig, that's the exception, and some ulama regard it as suicide if he doesn't eat it (because Allah has allowed him to eat it).

    So do you think it's oppressive if a person says eating pig is haraam? because he's making a blanket ruling.

    As myself and countless others have said in the past, when we give a 'ruling' then we give it according to the rule, not the exception, and our rules do not apply to people who are exceptions.

    So a person who doesn't have a mahram can travel without a mahram because she's in the exception group, she shouldn't wait for the fairy grandmother to give her a mahram until midnight.

    The same applies to the other situations as well.

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  • Abu Mus'ab
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Originally posted by Fais View Post
    .. .. :eek3: .. .. :shock: ..

    You mean to tell me this is the first time you ever see an old post of his? :eek3:

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  • Fais
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    :D
    .. .. :eek3: .. .. :shock: ..

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  • Colorado_Muslim
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    we are still stuck akhi

    the consensus that it must not be soft, and not unnecessary, as sister islamiya has said, she is talking about islam, from "behind a veil"

    but the subject of "causing fitnah" comes up, and that is (i think) the point of where do you draw the line

    men (the horndogs they are) can be attracted to anything
    women, must try to avoid causing fitnah

    where to draw the line, regarding paltalk or any other "islamic functions"?
    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL:up::D;):inlove::hidban::) He speaks the truth, we are "hounddoggys" hehe

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  • *asiya*
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    i wasnt referring to the paltalk issue i already made it clear i dont have any desire to speak on paltalk in front of brothers i dont see the point or benefit in it in fact i dont even like to type too much in there if i go to a class, except for replying salam.

    i was just bringing up the issue in general abu mubarak raised about the sisters having it much tougher than brothers in so many regards when they are not supported. Islam is a system a way of life that means every member of the ummah has to play a role in that, in order to help the sisters adhere to islamic rulings there has to be a support system for the sisters if they dont have that through an imam or muslim family, other muslim sisters, muslim husbands, fathers, brothers etc. then life becomes extremely difficult in so many regards, brothers dont have to ask themselves the question before they open the front door, am i leaving my house out of necessity ? am i properly covered ? will i be able to make it back before it gets dark? will i have to walk in a deserted place to get where i need to go ? how will i feed my children, pay the bills, how will i get some money this week when i cant remove my hijab to get a job ? they dont have to ask themselves how will i get married ? and how can i find a trustworthy brother to sincerely look after my interests in finding a husband ? they dont need a walli, men dont need a mahram to travel, men can go to the masjid for salat and meet other brothers, they can even work amongst kaffir women as it is considered a necessity for a man to work but it is not for a woman as a man is supposed to be supporting her , men dont have to consider everytime they open their mouths is this a necessity for me to speak.. women have a totally different life to men in Islam, and without the support of brothers as abu mubarak said we can start opressing sisters if we dont take into consideration the islamic rulings that apply only to women and start making blanket rulings upon all women who are actually in all sorts of totally different situations.Islam is a perfect way of life but it will only work perfectly when all of the ummah regardless of race age status or gender, is included by all of the muslims.

    what i have found is that so many muslims from muslim families live in a cocooned world where most things are in all place for them, but they forget that so many women dont have the same luxuries as the born muslims sisters and mothers do.
    Last edited by *asiya*; 17-07-08, 07:00 PM.

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  • Abu Mus'ab
    replied
    Re: My brother.....

    I'm so tired of repeating myself, neither i nor anyone else has said that women can't speak, what we said was that that paltalk thing was totally unnecessary (just read the latest post in that paltalk thread to see just how unnecessary it is), to put it bluntly that paltalk rooom is nothing more than an unnecessary chit chat playroom.

    Maybe i should put this whole voice issue in another scenario for people to understand.

    All your life you phone people on your cellphone, now all of a sudden you buy a cellphone with video support that you can see the person you're talking to and vice versa, now someone please explain to me how a person can say it's good to now have this phone with which you can see/be seen by the opposite gender? especially since you've gotten along quite well just using an ordinary cellphone, and there is no need for having video as well, so someone explain to me how does this become permissable?

    The talking is out of necessity, but where is the necessity in having video as well?

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  • *asiya*
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    though i agree with you, 100%, i do not want to deny any muslim their rights, i see that in many "cultural muslims" they have created a total new approach to islam that denies women certain rights............i do not want that on my shoulder either

    so to paraphrase LastFriday, this is the 21st century, you and i hear women all day long, we see them uncovered on the news, and in the street..........our sisters, and i love our sisters, go thru much more than we go thru, because they are covered everytime they go out the door, they endure the taunts of being oppressed, they have to look at all of these pretty kafir women strut their stuff, while they have to hide their beauty behind sheets and blankets

    we are all creatures of communication, sisters have an outlet thru the internet to speak, sound off, etc, and that door is being closed to them

    now we all know the name of this religion is submission, and that if this is truly the final say, our sisters will submit

    but is it definitively THE FINAL SAY?
    true, all too often people forget that many sisters are not in the situation as islam dictates to have men who are their protectors and maintainers, they dont have a local imam either, they have no muslim freinds, they have no way to earn a living because they fear Allah and wish to follow the command of staying in their homes and wearing hijab , so instead they choose to live in comparative poverty instead of removing their hijab to get work to feed their kids they just pray and wait for Allah to send them a suitable islamic solution. sometimes i think to myself when i hear these arguments, then should i even be on the internet typing ? but if i didnt i know that my iman would suffer terribly, i would literally be sitting here for the last 8 years staring at the walls and not opening my mouth to speak to anyone other than my sons for less than an hour a day. As it is i rarely open my mouth to speak anyway, typing has become my only form of communication with people which i dont think is very healthy at all.

    In the other thread it was claimed that we women cannot learn islamic knowledge from ulema over the net that we have to sit in front of a scholar to learn, were that the truth then i would never have known anything about this deen at all not even basic things, even how to pray had to be learnt from a piece of paper in an old muslim directory. whether i sit behind a screen to learn or learn from behind a curtain it makes no difference perhaps ideally it is better to sit in the masjid but then even if there was such a masjid where i live, then how would i get there? who would escourt me there? would they prefer sisters travel alone on public transport so we can say "oh i learned from the ulema at masdrassa so and so.." is it all about prestige of learning from alim so and so , or knowing enough about ur deen to try ur best to be a servant of Allah ta ala ? ( the shaikh i learnt from doesnt teach sisters face to face even in the masjid it is all screened between the genders anyway ) the only time i used the mic in islamic classes was to have my arabic heard corrected, and it was the shaikh and sisters present, i always typed other than that i would be to embaressed to talk anyway everyone has their own situation.

    when brothers are so staunch in being certain that women know their place but by the same token they are not willing to assist them practically in being in a situation where women can comfortably stay within the limits of Islam, they say they do this out of gheerah for their sisters masha Allah thats good intention but its not enough to just say it, practical solutions must also be brought and carried out. islam states that women stay in their homes, this means there should be a man providing so they can do that, islam states a woman shouldnt speak softly in front of men, some are saying she shouldnt speak at all, again men who believe that need to be certain that the women they silence have a mahram man to teach her the deen, and to deal with the necessities of life on her behalf so we dont have to accept the help for example of male non muslim neighbours because we have no muslim brothers to help us in the practical aspects of life. heck we cant even take a walk alone as women, its not safe going out alone in these times, sisters are attacked for their dress alone, cant exercise if u live in a flat due to islamic regulation on not upsetting our neighbours, so as women even our health suffers for our deen, so many muslim women have heart disease not from being overweight but from total lack of exercise because they have no one to escourt them out of their homes, never mind to travel with to learn deen or make umrah or haj that is totally out of the question for so many women they can only dream of being able to go before death overtakes them.

    its all very well laying down the laws as a blanket rule, and alhamdulillah we appreciate that and respect that and abide by it, but when the same men are not taking the practical steps to ensure a woman can live such an islamic life it does become very opressive for the women who are struggling so much alone on a daily basis, and when they seek company of the muslims and knowledge of their deen, then they are told they cannot be seen or heard or even seek knowledge of the deen online.

    my point is brothers shouldnt automatically assume that every muslim woman has a muslim father/husband/brother/uncle/imam to assist her,or that every woman who types or speaks on a forum has no hayaa and is a fitnah to men, many of us for the most part of our lives as muslimahs are left alone to struggle everyday with no one but Allah knowing what we have to go through and that is a greater fitnah in so many ways on ones mind health, iman, and emotions for a woman. if a woman is forced to go out of her home to provide for her family, or speak to gain knowledge, or she is speaking to a non mahram non muslim male neighbour to ask for assistance because she has no other choice, then there are muslim men somewhere are to blame for her being in that situation, because they are not taking the practical steps to make sure she is not in that situation, and most of the time they choose not to take the practical steps, because their culture doesnt permit them to do that, theyre all too busy marrying up their relatives and those only of their own race to be concerned with women who have no muslim family or community.

    im wondering now about all those dawa talks we see given by well known speakers, where non muslim women with no hijab are standing in front of the muslim men asking questions why we are not so quick to condem those brothers for speaking to them and listening to their words for if a womans voice is such fitnah then what about a women who is not covered and is speaking to men...its ok for the non muslim woman but not for the muslim women to learn her deen ? Allahu alam..
    Last edited by *asiya*; 17-07-08, 03:19 PM.

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  • Fudhayl
    replied
    My brother.....

    Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    though i agree with you, 100%, i do not want to deny any muslim their rights, i see that in many "cultural muslims" they have created a total new approach to islam that denies women certain rights............i do not want that on my shoulder either
    Hence whatever is free of doubt and permissible and their due in accordance to Qur'an and Sunnah should be given to them in the same manner that you or I would expect our rights without having to demand it and be accused of anything.

    With regards to Cultural Muslims and their approach, in reply to them some themselves have adopted a wrong approach ie. a modernist/ femenist movement where now they demand everything and anything that men have- bakwas such as if a man can be the Caliph so can women, if a man can be an Imam leading prayers with women behind them then women should be allowed to lead men in prayer, if a Muslim male can marry of the 'Ahlul Kitab' then Muslimaat should be allowed to marry Jews and Christians, etc.

    The approach to deal with culture is to examine if the practice itself is in line with the Sunnah- if it is and there are no contradictions khair let this cultural practice prevail for it will provide 'adl, if not then as will all things the Sunnah should be implemented at the expense of anything that stands against it.

    We as brothers need to seek the preservation of whatever is the betterment of not just ourselves as individuals but all believers around us. If a brother is married and is mature thereby he has little or no attraction to the voice of young unrelated unmarried Muslimaat masha'allah thats great for him but he needs to remember that others around him are weak (some are just down right sick pervs that need beats) so when implementing a practice the overall welfare of believers must be taken in context- a sisters right vs. her being protected from sickos, a decent brother being stirred to fitnah, etc. when all this could have been prevented. It is not because we are anti-female cultural 'extremists' who want to just abolish a woman's freedom/rights rather we are people who care for her more than those who think 'freedom' lies in taking your hijaab off, or 'freedom' lies in competing with men for leadership, etc.
    Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    if men can work work they want to work, if

    so to paraphrase LastFriday, this is the 21st century, you and i hear women all day long, we see them uncovered on the news, and in the street..........our sisters, and i love our sisters, go thru much more than we go thru, because they are covered everytime they go out the door, they endure the taunts of being oppressed, they have to look at all of these pretty kafir women strut their stuff, while they have to hide their beauty behind sheets and blankets
    With regards to this my brother subhan'allah thats the exact point! We love all the believers and hold a lofty place of muhabah and gheerah for each and every Muslimah- thats precisely why we do not want some sleazy piece of trash messing around with her in any shape or form be it on PM/ MSN/ face to face/ PalTalk, etc. especially when we know full well what hardships they endure and how difficult it can be for them faced against a wave of attack physically and from the media who day in day out defame and insult her precious honour.

    The kuffar want our sisters to question their role- how they apparently have a raw deal in life due to Islam. The Kaffirah is on every TV channel wearing tight tops- where are you Muslim women and why can you not be seen by sickos? The Kaffirah are on every billboards advertising toothpaste and cars- where are you Muslim women to sell junk? See your religion and your men have kept you down and its backwards, etc. etc. As if progressiveness and 'freedom' is in going out of the protection of the home half naked to work in an environment with males who have evil desires. Some of the modernist/ feminists thus believe and promote that a Muslimah TV presenter with make up splashed on her face is 'the way forward' as its presenting 'Islam in a positive peaceful light' combating 'stereotypes' of the kuffar that Muslim women are locked up and the religion of the terrorists, etc. Why the need to change to please the kuffar?

    Therefore we must never as brothers undermine our sisters ever by this in terms of remarks or name calling :lahawla:- whenever she is being advised needlessly to change her dress or level of morality and hayyah to go and display herself in whatever form needlessly in front of unrelated males we should advise against it be this on PalTalk or whatever. Whenever she is undermined or belittled brothers should naturally feel offended and should defend her.
    Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    we are all creatures of communication, sisters have an outlet thru the internet to speak, sound off, etc, and that door is being closed to them
    Thats just it my beloved brother- no door is being closed here aside from that which is doubtful and which may cause her harm. How so?

    We have already advised indeed she should have a PalTalk room and she should be able to voice and communicate herself but that she should be protected from any males. Give our sisters a closed private room moderated and managed by sisters (preferably Mods from Ummah forum as that PalTalk room is being run under the name of 'Ummah')- in that she can do as she needs- she expresses herself and benefits with no fear of harm from any unrelated males. Thus the door is open- what is closed as to our advice is a room in which there will be any form of inter-mingling, whereby unrelated males will hear our sisters without any need and converse, etc.
    Originally posted by AbuMubarak View Post
    now we all know the name of this religion is submission, and that if this is truly the final say, our sisters will submit

    but is it definitively THE FINAL SAY?
    A beautiful hadith comes to mind:

    On the authority of Al-Numan bin Basheer, who said : I heared the messenger of Allah say :

    "That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart."

    Narrated Saheeh by Bukhari and Muslim

    Its amazing what scholars say in regards to how falling into the doubtful not only harms ones deen, his honour, but also has a profound and direct negative impact on ones heart.
    Last edited by Fudhayl; 17-07-08, 03:09 PM.

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  • ibnmuadh
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    Jazakallahu khayran..

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  • AbuMubarak
    replied
    Re: The Female Voice

    i try to be as direct as possible akhi in inviting people to islam

    i dont try to elaborate into the intricacies of polygyny, aaisha's marriage, cutting hands, etc

    i dont apologize for suicide bombers or any other "terrorist" activities

    i am not sitting around playing the "europeans set the standards" game any longer

    zionists are not to be played with

    our muslim brothers and sisters are being killed by the same people we dwell amongst

    in other words, no more mr nice guy

    its you are either with them or with us

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