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Democracy in Islam

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    #61
    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
    But what could people in a Caliphate vote for, though? After all, islam is supposed to be a "way of life" which determines just about everything people do, so what is there where there might be room for debate?

    Incidentally, the way the divinely-guided caliphs got and lost the job - assassination and/or civil war - is certainly one where many people would think there could be room for improvement. Any suggestions for how a change of government or ruler might be managed?
    What shape stop signs should be, octagons or circles lol

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      #62
      Re: Democracy in Islam

      Originally posted by Abu Jarir View Post
      What shape stop signs should be, octagons or circles lol
      Dude?

      Circles!!!

      Comment


        #63
        Re: Democracy in Islam

        Originally posted by Abu Jarir View Post
        What shape stop signs should be, octagons or circles lol
        Circles son.
        If following Ahmad makes me a 'Wahhaabi', then I declare that I am one.

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          #64
          Re: Democracy in Islam

          Originally posted by true and just View Post
          Everyone should be entitled to shelter, food, education and healthcare.
          State-provided education and healthcare alone each cost a lot more than would be raised by standard rates of zakat in European countries.

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            #65
            Re: Democracy in Islam

            Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
            State-provided education and healthcare alone each cost a lot more than would be raised by standard rates of zakat in European countries.
            Look up fractional reserve banking and modern money mechanics.

            There is no "cost" as such if the government controls the banking system and not the private central banking cartels.

            Fiat money just controls the flow of resources.

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              #66
              Re: Democracy in Islam

              Originally posted by true and just View Post
              Look up fractional reserve banking and modern money mechanics.

              There is no "cost" as such if the government controls the banking system and not the private central banking cartels.

              Fiat money just controls the flow of resources.
              Not at all. The NHS in the UK makes up nearly 10% of GDP and education about 5%, though some is recovered in the form of fees. However you define "tax", "money" or "cost", hospitals, schools and universities have to built and the people that build them and work in them. have to be paid and however you wrestle with it, 3 1/2% zakat isn't going to provide 15% of the GDP.
              As for fiat money, the recent example of Zimbabwe and the current example of Venezuela show the effect of government attempts to control the banking system.

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                #67
                Re: Democracy in Islam

                Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
                Not at all. The NHS in the UK makes up nearly 10% of GDP and education about 5%, though some is recovered in the form of fees. However you define "tax", "money" or "cost", hospitals, schools and universities have to built and the people that build them and work in them. have to be paid and however you wrestle with it, 3 1/2% zakat isn't going to provide 15% of the GDP.
                As for fiat money, the recent example of Zimbabwe and the current example of Venezuela show the effect of government attempts to control the banking system.
                If a country has the resources to produce everything that it needs internally, then fiat currency can help to pay for infrastructure.

                Take the USA and Soviet Union. The are probably the only two countries which could be self sufficient and not need to trade with any other country.

                A countries currency is given value by it's economic output. That is why the USA is still number 1. Even though it has trillions of dollars of debt it still has the capability to produce anything the world could possibly need.

                The same goes for European Countries.

                Economic output is the reason that African nations are still in poverty. They have no industrial base, save what former colonial masters left them.

                As for Zimbabwe and Venezuela, as I mentioned before these countries relied heavily on imports. They have no factories that can make enough consumer goods to sustain their economy

                Oil rich nations such as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States also rely heavily on imports. Imagine what would happen to those countries if tomorrow the wells ran dry. They would not be able to pay for a bag of rice. And even if they could buy the rice they would not be able to produce a pot in which to cook it.

                The question really comes down to resources and human capital rather than "Money" itself.

                If we stopped wasting food in the west then everyone on the planet could have 4 meals a day.

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                  #68
                  Re: Democracy in Islam

                  Originally posted by true and just View Post
                  If a country has the resources to produce everything that it needs internally, then fiat currency can help to pay for infrastructure.

                  Take the USA and Soviet Union. The are probably the only two countries which could be self sufficient and not need to trade with any other country.

                  A countries currency is given value by it's economic output. That is why the USA is still number 1. Even though it has trillions of dollars of debt it still has the capability to produce anything the world could possibly need.

                  The same goes for European Countries.

                  Economic output is the reason that African nations are still in poverty. They have no industrial base, save what former colonial masters left them.

                  As for Zimbabwe and Venezuela, as I mentioned before these countries relied heavily on imports. They have no factories that can make enough consumer goods to sustain their economy

                  Oil rich nations such as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States also rely heavily on imports. Imagine what would happen to those countries if tomorrow the wells ran dry. They would not be able to pay for a bag of rice. And even if they could buy the rice they would not be able to produce a pot in which to cook it.

                  The question really comes down to resources and human capital rather than "Money" itself.

                  If we stopped wasting food in the west then everyone on the planet could have 4 meals a day.
                  Given the relationship between a country's economic output and the value of its currency, it's still going to be impossible to provide the equivalent of 15% of GDP (the amount spent on health and education in the UK; other western European countries spend similar amounts or more) from zakat of 3.5%.
                  The Soviet Union ceased to exist twenty five years ago. One of the causes of its downfall was the use of fiat values for goods - for example, collective farms grew grain, which was sold at fiat prices and made into bread, sold at fiat prices, which the farms bought as animal fodder because it was cheaper than just growing grain to feed to animals.

                  Comment


                    #69
                    Re: Democracy in Islam

                    Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
                    Given the relationship between a country's economic output and the value of its currency, it's still going to be impossible to provide the equivalent of 15% of GDP (the amount spent on health and education in the UK; other western European countries spend similar amounts or more) from zakat of 3.5%.
                    But then, the reason why countries such as the UK are able to spend such amounts is because of the various taxes: income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, stamp duties, among various others. In an Islamic state, there would not be such taxes, meaning that most people will then have a larger disposable income and, as a result, probably would not have to rely on the state for education and healthcare.

                    Comment


                      #70
                      Re: Democracy in Islam

                      Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
                      Given the relationship between a country's economic output and the value of its currency, it's still going to be impossible to provide the equivalent of 15% of GDP (the amount spent on health and education in the UK; other western European countries spend similar amounts or more) from zakat of 3.5%.
                      The Soviet Union ceased to exist twenty five years ago. One of the causes of its downfall was the use of fiat values for goods - for example, collective farms grew grain, which was sold at fiat prices and made into bread, sold at fiat prices, which the farms bought as animal fodder because it was cheaper than just growing grain to feed to animals.
                      If you have the resources then you do not need "Money". All that is required is human labour. Give them a wage for their services.

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                        #71
                        Re: Democracy in Islam

                        Originally posted by Morose View Post
                        But then, the reason why countries such as the UK are able to spend such amounts is because of the various taxes: income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, stamp duties, among various others. In an Islamic state, there would not be such taxes, meaning that most people will then have a larger disposable income and, as a result, probably would not have to rely on the state for education and healthcare.
                        All money is debt and all tax does is stop you from paying off that debt.

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                          #72
                          Re: Democracy in Islam

                          Originally posted by true and just View Post
                          All money is debt and all tax does is stop you from paying off that debt.
                          That is true, the UK's national debt is alarmingly disgusting.

                          But you said the 2.5% zakat would not be enough to fund state education and healthcare, which is true it wouldn't, except under an Islamic state where there are no taxes, it probably would not need to.
                          And, bear in mind, zakat need not be the only form of giving.

                          Comment


                            #73
                            Re: Democracy in Islam

                            Originally posted by Morose View Post
                            But then, the reason why countries such as the UK are able to spend such amounts is because of the various taxes: income tax, corporation tax, capital gains tax, inheritance tax, stamp duties, among various others. In an Islamic state, there would not be such taxes, meaning that most people will then have a larger disposable income and, as a result, probably would not have to rely on the state for education and healthcare.
                            The people most dependent on state aid - the poorest - are the ones who pay least in taxes and would proportionately be even poorer if taxation on other people did not support them.
                            Originally posted by true and just View Post
                            If you have the resources then you do not need "Money". All that is required is human labour. Give them a wage for their services.
                            If there is no "money", how do you give them a wage?
                            Your belief that "all money is debt" is mistaken. Money is a measure of the comparative value of goods and products. It is often arbitrary or inefficient, but it works well enough most of the time; certainly better than repeated exchange and negotiation.

                            Comment


                              #74
                              Re: Democracy in Islam

                              Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
                              The people most dependent on state aid - the poorest - are the ones who pay least in taxes and would proportionately be even poorer if taxation on other people did not support them.
                              True, but then what is the proportion of these households? - Because the majority in a country like the UK are those middle earners who are hit most by the taxes, and (possibly therefore) could not afford private education / healthcare.

                              I think the extremely poor who pay no taxes yet claim state aid are a minority.

                              Comment


                                #75
                                Re: Democracy in Islam

                                Originally posted by Sceptic View Post
                                The people most dependent on state aid - the poorest - are the ones who pay least in taxes and would proportionately be even poorer if taxation on other people did not support them.
                                If there is no "money", how do you give them a wage?
                                Your belief that "all money is debt" is mistaken. Money is a measure of the comparative value of goods and products. It is often arbitrary or inefficient, but it works well enough most of the time; certainly better than repeated exchange and negotiation.
                                All money in circulation is debt. Money comes from the central bank. Governments borrow it and issue bonds to be paid with interest.

                                Unless you are telling me that banks give out loans with zero interest. Do your research and look at where money comes from.

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