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Democracy in Islam

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    #31
    Re: Democracy in Islam

    Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
    So coruption only exists because of democracy, people are always going to be corrupt no matter if they live in any type of government, yet for some reason non democratic governments tend to have more corruption and problems but that's none of my buisness
    No

    Corruption can happen and does happen even in an autocratic or other state.

    The point I have been making is this: you say all the success western nations have is because of democracy. I say no, it's because of other factors and it would make no difference whether they were a democracy or not, they'd still be successful today because of their evil foreign policies and exploitation of other countries.

    Comment


      #32
      Re: Democracy in Islam

      Originally posted by Stoic Believer View Post
      Democracy gives legislation of laws to the people, and is thus incompatible with Islam.
      Conversation should have ended here imo.

      If a country gives people the power to legislate, they have failed in the akhirah, so they have failed period
      وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
      They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

      Comment


        #33
        Re: Democracy in Islam

        Originally posted by Abd al-Rahman View Post
        Sister these countries make permissible every kind of disgusting and filthy thing, and they don't rule by Allah's rules. In what way are they successful? I am an American, from arguably the most corrupt and immoral country in the west, when Democracy leads to such immorality, how could it be successful?

        American Democracy is the worst. The presidential system creates massive legislative gridlock, so the president is always fighting with the legislature to get laws passed. The electoral system is terrible and marginalizes smaller parties and ethnic minorities. The Federal system lead to many crises and a civil war in the past, and continues to cause countless court battles and fights between the central governments and the states.

        That's just what I know of America, and I'm sure if you go from country to country you would find more issues
        Lol make permissible every kind of disgusting and filthy thing? Its not like non democratic countries don't allow these things. In your opinion American democracy is the worst but it seems obvious you didn't pay attention in class or realize the checks and balances system which allows for no one branch to gain more power than the other. "the president is always fighting with the legislature to get laws passed", I'm pretty sure Congress makes laws and passes them, not the President brother. Also, your opinion on the electoral college is just that, an opinion, how does the electoral system marginalize minorities although I do agree that it limits smaller parties. In my opinion, all states should have the system that Nebraska or Maine has where electoral votes are split however, that is a debate for another day. Furthermore, the federal system is good in that local laws specific to the problem of each state are passed apply only to its inhabitants, the majority of of laws you follow are state laws and the cause of the civil war was not the Federal system. It was the debate on slavery, the South wanted to spread slavery while the North wanted to stop the expansion of it. After the dredscott decision and the election of Lincoln, the South could not accept him for his freesoiler views and then choose to secede form the Union so the cause of the civil war was because of the election of Lincoln and their pro slavery views, not becasue of the federal system.

        Comment


          #34
          Re: Democracy in Islam

          Originally posted by Morose View Post
          No

          Corruption can happen and does happen even in an autocratic or other state.

          The point I have been making is this: you say all the success western nations have is because of democracy. I say no, it's because of other factors and it would make no difference whether they were a democracy or not, they'd still be successful today because of their evil foreign policies and exploitation of other countries.
          So let's go back in time and look at the foundations of democracy, to be accepting of others beleifs and to draw power from the will of the people. Democracy has shown itself to be powerful because of geopolitics and it has shown to be better and more long lasting because of the fact it gives the people power. What about America, the reason it initially gained power was not because of imperialism, in the eighteenth and nineteenth century, it had virtually no intentions to expand, America early on was very against imperilism and colonization. I always hate when some people say that western countries exploited other countries and only became powerful through that. Sure Western countries did exploit others but they became powerful because of early industrialization and development of technology, Japan managed to industrialize in a short amount of time which allowed then to defeat Russia in the first sino-japanese war.

          Comment


            #35
            Re: Democracy in Islam

            Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
            Lol make permissible every kind of disgusting and filthy thing? Its not like non democratic countries don't allow these things. In your opinion American democracy is the worst but it seems obvious you didn't pay attention in class or realize the checks and balances system which allows for no one branch to gain more power than the other. "the president is always fighting with the legislature to get laws passed", I'm pretty sure Congress makes laws and passes them, not the President brother. Also, your opinion on the electoral college is just that, an opinion, how does the electoral system marginalize minorities although I do agree that it limits smaller parties. In my opinion, all states should have the system that Nebraska or Maine has where electoral votes are split however, that is a debate for another day. Furthermore, the federal system is good in that local laws specific to the problem of each state are passed apply only to its inhabitants, the majority of of laws you follow are state laws and the cause of the civil war was not the Federal system. It was the debate on slavery, the South wanted to spread slavery while the North wanted to stop the expansion of it. After the dredscott decision and the election of Lincoln, the South could not accept him for his freesoiler views and then choose to secede form the Union so the cause of the civil war was because of the election of Lincoln and their pro slavery views, not becasue of the federal system.
            Man, you really love America.

            Also, do answer my question. What kind of government do you support for the Muslim world? Also, what is your opinion on establishing Sharia and a khilafah?

            Comment


              #36
              Re: Democracy in Islam

              Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
              Some of your reasons are wrong however, historically, Europe didn't exactly embrace democracy until well into the twentieth century. What about America, their government is one of the most stable and longlasting there is today and they were the first nation to have democracy as we know it today. Would you care to clarify how with "evil and corruption" they became powerful? I think it was moreso geopolitics which allowed America to get strong, a lack of powerful neighbors, lots of space to expand and the Manifest Destiny which allowed to initatially become a powerful force early on.

              Princeton, Havard, Yale university were funded by opium money. The grandfather of the state of secretary John Kerry was opium dealer and made a lot of money and put a lot of it into the USA economy.
              Last edited by Magic.; 26-12-16, 08:27 PM.
              8 powerful habits to succeed


              1. Wake up early!
              2. Do it as soon as possible, you could die tonight so make the best of today
              3. Remember your life is unique, don't compare yourself to others. Use that jealousy as an energy to make your life a success"
              4. Have healthy habits. Set a time each day to exercise. Try with the mindset you're only going to do some jumping jacks for 5 seconds and the next thing you know, you're doing a workout!
              5. Read, read, read. Ponder over the Qur'an, learn more. Put the idiot box (TV) away
              6. Take note. Desires make slaves out of kings and patience makes kings out of slaves.
              7. Results aren't just worldly. Results are also about perseverance, retaining dignity, being honest, being honourable, doing good unto others.
              8. Always encourage others especially our brothers and sisters, let them know making mistakes is okay, we all make mistakes, do not ever undermine them and make them feel incompetent. This id also true for the dunya, so what if they don't get the maths sum right the first time, that is what LEARNING is.

              NEW UPDATE

              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJubtizAEfU


              Watch this when you're distressed!

              Comment


                #37
                Re: Democracy in Islam

                Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
                But the times have changed, back then many people lived in a fedual system and there wasn't factories, industrialization, cars, electricity etc... Back then the amount of power you had was dictated by the amount of land you owned and there was no centralised government. Each noble held a plot of land which was worked by people and if you were a noble in a city, people paid tax and you made profit
                but now in order to have a properous state there needs to be modernization, good standard of living and investment along with education of your people

                But they have been achieved by every civilisation. So by that logic, every civilisation was great.

                You need to separate the way a country runs and the products it can form.

                How did a liberal democracy produce Microsoft?
                8 powerful habits to succeed


                1. Wake up early!
                2. Do it as soon as possible, you could die tonight so make the best of today
                3. Remember your life is unique, don't compare yourself to others. Use that jealousy as an energy to make your life a success"
                4. Have healthy habits. Set a time each day to exercise. Try with the mindset you're only going to do some jumping jacks for 5 seconds and the next thing you know, you're doing a workout!
                5. Read, read, read. Ponder over the Qur'an, learn more. Put the idiot box (TV) away
                6. Take note. Desires make slaves out of kings and patience makes kings out of slaves.
                7. Results aren't just worldly. Results are also about perseverance, retaining dignity, being honest, being honourable, doing good unto others.
                8. Always encourage others especially our brothers and sisters, let them know making mistakes is okay, we all make mistakes, do not ever undermine them and make them feel incompetent. This id also true for the dunya, so what if they don't get the maths sum right the first time, that is what LEARNING is.

                NEW UPDATE

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJubtizAEfU


                Watch this when you're distressed!

                Comment


                  #38
                  Re: Democracy in Islam

                  Israel isn't a democracy it's an ethnocracy.
                  "What is asked today is uniting the ranks of the Muwahideen, and to re-unite the Muslims. And directing the efforts to confront the challenges/threats of the Majoos, Tawagith and their donkeys the Murji'ah and the secularists."- Shayk Sulayman Al Alwan

                  Comment


                    #39
                    Re: Democracy in Islam

                    Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
                    See this type of thinking is counter productive, consider what you just said and then try to apply that to history, although one leader may be able to produce great change, what about the next? This is the main problem with monarchies and other types of government, you will simply get a leader who is unqualified. Democracies are have produced some of the strongest nations today such as the United States which has lasted for more than two hundred years. Although there are problems with democracy, to say they sit around and talk too much and do nothing is wrong.
                    You are wrong. Democracy is completely controlled by media and this is nothing new. I've had many professor talk about how media outlets or certain artists can completely control how your citizens think and therefor which leader they choose. The democratic system is hardly any democratic, it's just a system where the guy that is backed with enough financial support gets elected. That's how it works and how it always will work.

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Re: Democracy in Islam

                      Simply put, I would much prefer to live in a democratic state than a dictatorship like in the middle east.
                      Democracy may not be perfect, however, ask most people in states that are otherwise, where they would prefer.

                      Sadly, I have a child who is disillusioned with Islam. When I asked her for a reason, she gave examples of Isis, and the mayhem in the Islamic countries.
                      I could not reply. Any ideas about what I can say or do?

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Re: Democracy in Islam

                        Originally posted by Stoic Believer View Post
                        Man, you really love America.

                        Also, do answer my question. What kind of government do you support for the Muslim world? Also, what is your opinion on establishing Sharia and a khilafah?
                        Sorry for the very late reply, brother I was studying and didn't have time. But, to answer your question, I think we need a muslim majority country where a majority of its inhabitants are throughly educated in Islam but there should be an election of the leader, no passing of power. The idea of a monarchy or dictatorship to me just seems backward and illogical as most non democratic countries which are sucessful usually have one or two good leaders but in the end fail because power is passed down to an incompetent fool or the country tears itself into pieces over civil war. An example of sucessful non democratic regimes would be Thailand, whose king recently died but managed to improve his country by relentlessly working to improve the lives of its citizens, however his wayward promiscuous son is due to take power and most thais agree he is very incompetent. Personally, I believe that a caliphate can be established only through average citizens learning more about Islam however, due to the failures in Syria where the government handily defeated the rebels, I don't know how Sharia law can be established in more countries or how a caliphate would come to be. I think that we as Muslims need to learn lessons from the failures in Syria and know that next time an oppurtunity like this comes along, we cannot have disunion.

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Re: Democracy in Islam

                          Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
                          Sorry for the very late reply, brother I was studying and didn't have time. But, to answer your question, I think we need a muslim majority country where a majority of its inhabitants are throughly educated in Islam but there should be an election of the leader, no passing of power. The idea of a monarchy or dictatorship to me just seems backward and illogical as most non democratic countries which are sucessful usually have one or two good leaders but in the end fail because power is passed down to an incompetent fool or the country tears itself into pieces over civil war. An example of sucessful non democratic regimes would be Thailand, whose king recently died but managed to improve his country by relentlessly working to improve the lives of its citizens, however his wayward promiscuous son is due to take power and most thais agree he is very incompetent. Personally, I believe that a caliphate can be established only through average citizens learning more about Islam however, due to the failures in Syria where the government handily defeated the rebels, I don't know how Sharia law can be established in more countries or how a caliphate would come to be. I think that we as Muslims need to learn lessons from the failures in Syria and know that next time an oppurtunity like this comes along, we cannot have disunion.
                          Interesting. :jkk: for your reply.

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Re: Democracy in Islam

                            Originally posted by Magic. View Post
                            But they have been achieved by every civilisation. So by that logic, every civilisation was great.

                            You need to separate the way a country runs and the products it can form.

                            How did a liberal democracy produce Microsoft?
                            Well it is not about the products it can form but the standard of living it citizens have. I don't think that there is modernization and a good standard of living in many Muslim countries. Find something like social security or medical care, the Muslim world is also clearly behind in education. I'm not sure where you get the idea that every civilization was great, in general people are much more educated now than they ever were at any other time in the past however, there are plenty of places were the population is not very well educated at all. You missed my point, a liberal democracy produced Microsoft because that one indivisual had an higher education. If more people went to university and applied the knowledge they learned in their home country then there could be endless benefits, in the 21st century, knowledge is power to help your people be sucessful.

                            Comment


                              #44
                              Re: Democracy in Islam

                              Democracy is for fools.

                              Comment


                                #45
                                Re: Democracy in Islam

                                Originally posted by fyi View Post
                                You are wrong. Democracy is completely controlled by media and this is nothing new. I've had many professor talk about how media outlets or certain artists can completely control how your citizens think and therefor which leader they choose. The democratic system is hardly any democratic, it's just a system where the guy that is backed with enough financial support gets elected. That's how it works and how it always will work.
                                Well this was disproven on November, 2016 by the election of Donald Trump who spent much less money(300 million) than his opponent Hillary Clinton who had the full backing of many major new outlets, comedy shows, other tv shows, celebrities etc... but still failed to win the election

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