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Democracy in Islam

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    #16
    Re: Democracy in Islam

    In a democracey it is commonly assumed that the majority get their way but that is not true in fact it is the oposite the majority would most likely never get there wayy

    And why because of the need to compromise ideals
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA4aB12r8LY&t=225s

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Democracy in Islam

      Originally posted by AishaGirl View Post
      Provide your proof please.

      Watch him link some illuminati Rothschild nonsense. Democratic countries are the most stable for a reason, look at the UK, USA, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Norway, Sweden etc etc. In fact here is a map highlighting these countries. Where you see red typically there is corruption, dictatorship, civil unrest and overthrowing of governments by the people because they hate their way of life. Where you see green you see continued peaceful transition from one leader to another, no civil unrest, no overthrowing of governments etc.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr...racy_Index.svg

      Yes there is injustice in some parts, yes some people are treated differently to others. But wallahi you can never please everyone, no matter what system you use there will always be someone, somewhere who doesn't like it.

      I am not supporting the democratic way, Im simply stating facts.
      Yes, the uk was so democratic when it chose to invade Iraq despite people being against it.

      France was a good example of a democracy too when it decided to violate the rights of its citizens when it banned the niqab.

      The USA is so corrupt. Otherwise, they would be transparent in their operations and there would not have been all that drama over Hilary's email accounts or the wiki leaks incident.

      Of course they'll tell you it's for national security though...

      If you honestly believe 9/11 wasn't an inside job, you are half mad.

      "Wallahi you cannot please everyone"... no, how about just trying to please the majority? But you can't even do that. That's why there's a huge disparity in the distribution of wealth, and the majority are left unhappy.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Democracy in Islam

        Originally posted by Morose View Post
        First there's the election of a president which constitutes one characteristic of a democracy; does the USA really fulfil this? Because there are always reports of vote rigging etc. Even now with Trump. But assume it meets this condition...

        Members of the public ought to be allowed participation in the politics of the country. What is the demographics of politicians? Most are wealthy and come from privileged backgrounds and private schools. So why are the poor such a minoriry?

        The rights of all citizens should be protected. Can the USA really boast this virtue? I think not.

        The rule of law applies to everybody equally; in the USA, does it really?

        There is no such thing as a democracy. It's just a concept, aspects of which are observed in order to provide a false sense of power to the people, so as to avoid an uprising. But in the end, the affairs of the country and the people is dictated by a corrupt, select few.
        I think you are reading to much into other things, democracy by definition is a government which derives its power from the consent of the governed. You say that most politicians come from wealthy backgrounds yet despite that, some poor people still can become an elected official. For example, Obama did not come from a background of wealth but he managed to become president, again what about countries that have a nondemocratic governments, They are ruled by an elite class which could care less about its people. At least democracy is forced to appeal to its voters in order to have power. What is stopping a king or dictatator from not caring about his people? Absoultely nothing. The rights of citizens are protected more in the US than in any other country, again what about other non democratic countries, it leaders have the ability to stop all over people's rights and there is nothing to check them. Furthermore, the fact that the rule of law is present should be a sign of freedom, although it is stated, humans are inherently flawed and as you said sometimes the law doesn't equally apply to everyone. In democracy, people have some sort of say into who they vote into power whether through organization, fundraising, speeches etc.. Again attempt to find this in a monarchy or dictatorship where power is passed down and tell me if the people there have more say in the person that holds power.

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          #19
          Re: Democracy in Islam

          Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
          I think you are reading to much into other things, democracy by definition is a government which derives its power from the consent of the governed. You say that most politicians come from wealthy backgrounds yet despite that, some poor people still can become an elected official. For example, Obama did not come from a background of wealth but he managed to become president, again what about countries that have a nondemocratic governments, They are ruled by an elite class which could care less about its people. At least democracy is forced to appeal to its voters in order to have power. What is stopping a king or dictatator from not caring about his people? Absoultely nothing. The rights of citizens are protected more in the US than in any other country, again what about other non democratic countries, it leaders have the ability to stop all over people's rights and there is nothing to check them. Furthermore, the fact that the rule of law is present should be a sign of freedom, although it is stated, humans are inherently flawed and as you said sometimes the law doesn't equally apply to everyone. In democracy, people have some sort of say into who they vote into power whether through organization, fundraising, speeches etc.. Again attempt to find this in a monarchy or dictatorship where power is passed down and tell me if the people there have more say in the person that holds power.
          In the early civilisations of Muslims, the people were doing much better and that was without a democracy. You keep going on about how the USA protects equal rights etc yet just look at how the bladks are treated. They are marginalised. It's not really a democracy when the power really lies with the select few.

          And the laws that are passed, they are constructed by humans and you've already admitted humans are flawed so how do you know these laws are fair and just? The democratic nations do not have a criterion as they should.

          And allowing the public to vote on the leader is a stupid idea as most people are imbeciles anyway. Some one mentioned brexit; did you know that after the vote, the most popular search on google was "what is the EU"? This is why, when you allow the public to vote on the leader, you end up with morons as seems to be the case each time.

          Wow you really admire the USA. Do you wish for all Muslim countries to become like the US?
          Last edited by Morose; 26-12-16, 06:22 PM.

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Democracy in Islam

            Originally posted by Morose View Post
            Yes, the uk was so democratic when it chose to invade Iraq despite people being against it.

            France was a good example of a democracy too when it decided to violate the rights of its citizens when it banned the niqab.

            The USA is so corrupt. Otherwise, they would be transparent in their operations and there would not have been all that drama over Hilary's email accounts or the wiki leaks incident.

            Of course they'll tell you it's for national security though...

            If you honestly believe 9/11 wasn't an inside job, you are half mad.

            "Wallahi you cannot please everyone"... no, how about just trying to please the majority? But you can't even do that. That's why there's a huge disparity in the distribution of wealth, and the majority are left unhappy.
            I never said 9/11 wasn't an inside job dont put words in my mouth. I believe the CIA knew 9/11 was going to happen but they allowed it so they could use it as an excuse to invade.

            They tried to ban the Niqab and guess what? The people complained about it and told the government it was wrong so the decision was overturned.
            I beg my parents for money

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Democracy in Islam

              Originally posted by Morose View Post
              The USA might be powerful today, but that came about through invasion of other countries and exploitation of its people.

              You forget that the Muslims too were once very powerful and it was not due to do each either. And the only reason why they fell from power was due to a lack of Islam, infighting and conflict caused by certain sects, and in some cases greed for power.

              But early Muslim civilisation should show you that democracy is not necessary for a powerful and prosperous state.
              But the times have changed, back then many people lived in a fedual system and there wasn't factories, industrialization, cars, electricity etc... Back then the amount of power you had was dictated by the amount of land you owned and there was no centralised government. Each noble held a plot of land which was worked by people and if you were a noble in a city, people paid tax and you made profit
              but now in order to have a properous state there needs to be modernization, good standard of living and investment along with education of your people

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Democracy in Islam

                Originally posted by AishaGirl View Post
                I never said 9/11 wasn't an inside job dont put words in my mouth. I believe the CIA knew 9/11 was going to happen but they allowed it so they could use it as an excuse to invade.

                They tried to ban the Niqab and guess what? The people complained about it and told the government it was wrong so the decision was overturned.
                Oh, how very wonderful! They decided to retract on their decision to ban the niqab. If only France would have done the same.

                So if acknowledge what you have just done about 9/11, then you must acknowledge the presence of corruption too?

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Democracy in Islam

                  Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
                  But the times have changed, back then many people lived in a fedual system and there wasn't factories, industrialization, cars, electricity etc... Back then the amount of power you had was dictated by the amount of land you owned and there was no centralised government. Each noble held a plot of land which was worked by people and if you were a noble in a city, people paid tax and you made profit
                  but now in order to have a properous state there needs to be modernization, good standard of living and investment along with education of your people
                  And you're saying that all of that is not possible except under a democracy?

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Democracy in Islam

                    Originally posted by Morose View Post
                    In the early civilisations of Muslims, the people were doing much better and that was without a democracy. You keep going on about how the USA protects equal rights etc yet just look at how the bladks are treated. They are marginalised. It's not really a democracy when the power really lies with the select few.

                    And the laws that are passed, they are constructed by humans and you've already admitted humans are flawed so how do you know these laws are fair and just? The democratic nations do not have a criterion as they should.

                    And allowing the public to vote on the leader is a stupid idea as most people are imbeciles anyway. Some one mentioned brexit; did you know that after the vote, the most popular search on google was "what is the EU"? This is why, when you allow the public to vote on the leader, you end up with morons as seems to be the case each time.

                    Wow you really admire the USA. Do you wish for all Muslim countries to become like the US?
                    Where do you black people being discriminated against on a widescale basis, its like you read Reconstruction and the Jim Crow Laws and decided that was what proves America as racist. Racism is a thing of the past in the US, the KKK used to have millions of members, now they don't number more than 30,000. Lol, I admire the US? You didn't reply to any of the things I just posted but I admire the US system because there is always a peaceful tranisition of power, unlike what you see in monarchies or dictatorships which are very unstable. I think that democracy is a better alternative than a dictatorship/Oligarchy or monarchy, do you really want to live in a place where the leaders could care less about your troubles?

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Democracy in Islam

                      Originally posted by Morose View Post
                      And you're saying that all of that is not possible except under a democracy?
                      Of course it is but to compare todays problems to that of early muslims makes no sense as there are very different problems facing the two, the two are extremely dissimilar in the current issues of the time.

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Democracy in Islam

                        Originally posted by Morose View Post
                        Oh, how very wonderful! They decided to retract on their decision to ban the niqab. If only France would have done the same.

                        So if acknowledge what you have just done about 9/11, then you must acknowledge the presence of corruption too?
                        Of course there is corruption in democratic countries, in fact every country in the world probably has some form of corruption I totally agree with you. You are missing what Im saying though, you can never have a perfect government of any system, even a caliph ruling by Sharia there will still be corruption because humans are corruptible.

                        Im sure you have heard this phrase before, Islam is perfect but Muslims are not.

                        If there existed a Sharia run country that was operated correctly, the people were happy with their chosen leaders and everything was working more or less as it should, then I would absolutely say that is better than democracy. However until such a place exists Im happy living under a democratic country. You dont have to support a system to be happy living under it.
                        I beg my parents for money

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: Democracy in Islam

                          Originally posted by Morose View Post
                          Oh, how very wonderful! They decided to retract on their decision to ban the niqab. If only France would have done the same.

                          So if acknowledge what you have just done about 9/11, then you must acknowledge the presence of corruption too?
                          So coruption only exists because of democracy, people are always going to be corrupt no matter if they live in any type of government, yet for some reason non democratic governments tend to have more corruption and problems but that's none of my buisness

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: Democracy in Islam

                            Originally posted by AishaGirl View Post
                            Provide your proof please.

                            Watch him link some illuminati Rothschild nonsense. Democratic countries are the most stable for a reason, look at the UK, USA, Switzerland, Australia, Canada, Norway, Sweden etc etc. In fact here is a map highlighting these countries. Where you see red typically there is corruption, dictatorship, civil unrest and overthrowing of governments by the people because they hate their way of life. Where you see green you see continued peaceful transition from one leader to another, no civil unrest, no overthrowing of governments etc.

                            https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democr...racy_Index.svg

                            Yes there is injustice in some parts, yes some people are treated differently to others. But wallahi you can never please everyone, no matter what system you use there will always be someone, somewhere who doesn't like it.

                            I am not supporting the democratic way, Im simply stating facts.
                            Sister these countries make permissible every kind of disgusting and filthy thing, and they don't rule by Allah's rules. In what way are they successful? I am an American, from arguably the most corrupt and immoral country in the west, when Democracy leads to such immorality, how could it be successful?

                            American Democracy is the worst. The presidential system creates massive legislative gridlock, so the president is always fighting with the legislature to get laws passed. The electoral system is terrible and marginalizes smaller parties and ethnic minorities. The Federal system lead to many crises and a civil war in the past, and continues to cause countless court battles and fights between the central governments and the states.

                            That's just what I know of America, and I'm sure if you go from country to country you would find more issues
                            وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
                            They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Democracy in Islam

                              Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
                              Where do you black people being discriminated against on a widescale basis, its like you read Reconstruction and the Jim Crow Laws and decided that was what proves America as racist. Racism is a thing of the past in the US, the KKK used to have millions of members, now they don't number more than 30,000. Lol, I admire the US? You didn't reply to any of the things I just posted but I admire the US system because there is always a peaceful tranisition of power, unlike what you see in monarchies or dictatorships which are very unstable. I think that democracy is a better alternative than a dictatorship/Oligarchy or monarchy, do you really want to live in a place where the leaders could care less about your troubles?
                              I did reply to you. Peaceful transition of power, that's what impresses you? Well there would be a peaceful transition of power in other countries too if the USA did not meddle with them. But the problem is, these countries build stable countries for themselves whilst destabilising others.
                              And you keep mentioning all the good attributes of the country whereas I'm trying to tell you such attributes do not owe their origin to democracy, rather to corruption. The USA reached prosperity through its foreign affairs which involved invasions and exploitation of other nations. The USA could be a democracy or not, it would still have the same success if the policies did not change.
                              Whatever "good" you see in these countries, is not from democracy. You do not need democracy for stability because Qatar or Brunei aren't exactly unstable.

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: Democracy in Islam

                                Originally posted by Zayndi View Post
                                So coruption only exists because of democracy, people are always going to be corrupt no matter if they live in any type of government, yet for some reason non democratic governments tend to have more corruption and problems but that's none of my buisness
                                Here in the west, its far more covert. Look at lobbyists, its legalized bribery and corruption, subhanAllah

                                Look at things like the panama papers. Trillions of dollars kept offshore by western politicians and corporations.

                                Look at military and government contracts, and how they are distributed to friends and patrons of the president.

                                The US and western countries have the same corrupt cronyism as any third world country, if anything, its worse, because in the US its legalized and put right in your face, but in other countries its done under the table
                                وَمَا قَدَرُوا اللَّهَ حَقَّ قَدْرِهِ وَالْأَرْضُ جَمِيعًا قَبْضَتُهُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَالسَّمَاوَاتُ مَطْوِيَّاتٌ بِيَمِينِهِ ۚ سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ عَمَّا يُشْرِكُونَ
                                They have not appraised Allah with true appraisal, while the earth entirely will be [within] His grip on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens will be folded in His right hand. Exalted is He and high above what they associate with Him. (Az-Zumar: 67)

                                Comment

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